Artificial padding - tedious grind quests; "difficulty curves" defined simply by bashing everything up 6 levels and requiring you to go and level grind for a few hours; awkward, slow travel; etc. Xenoblade for example is fantastic, but it falls into a lot of these way too much, and as such I just can't bring myself to finish the thing.
Pacing - overlaps a lot with artificial padding. But for me at least, an epic storyline loses some of its immersion if I'm waiting several hours (which could be several in-game weeks) between each important plot point.
Chance vs skill balance - RPGs of all varieties are always gonna be based on some random dice rolling due to their roots in board game RPGs. That in itself isn't a problem. But things like items with a 5% drop chance on a rare enemy, and I'm having to fight the thing over and over for multiple hours to get one? That's not skill. There's precisely zero skill in that. It's just mindless luck, and to me, that is not conducive to good game design.
-I only had to grind once in Xenoblade. The game is designed such that you are expected to do sidequests in between plot points, and I don't think that's bad design at all for a game so heavily focused on them. If the game didn't take sidequests into account, then you would find yourself in a position where everything is stupidly easy.
-Pacing is more of a problem with particular games than with the genre. I really haven't noticed any Pacing problems in the JRPGs I've played.
-I think that last point depends on a scenario. If a game has a mandatory mission and you have to go hunting down something like that, yes it's a problem. But when its one sidequest among many, I think it actually enhances world building more than anything. Maybe it's because I'm not a completionist to any degree whatsoever, but I love just happening upon a rare item that I need for a sidequest. It adds a feeling of discovery to the world rather than making it feel like some "resource garden" for you to go through the motions in. That's part of what I loved about Xenoblade's sidequest system. I'd collect hundreds of sidequests in my quest log with no expectation that I'd finish every one of them, but when I was venturing through the world fighting enemies, I'd happen upon something great.
Currently Playing: Steamworld Heist, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Tales of Graces F
Artificial padding - tedious grind quests; "difficulty curves" defined simply by bashing everything up 6 levels and requiring you to go and level grind for a few hours; awkward, slow travel; etc. Xenoblade for example is fantastic, but it falls into a lot of these way too much, and as such I just can't bring myself to finish the thing.
Pacing - overlaps a lot with artificial padding. But for me at least, an epic storyline loses some of its immersion if I'm waiting several hours (which could be several in-game weeks) between each important plot point.
Chance vs skill balance - RPGs of all varieties are always gonna be based on some random dice rolling due to their roots in board game RPGs. That in itself isn't a problem. But things like items with a 5% drop chance on a rare enemy, and I'm having to fight the thing over and over for multiple hours to get one? That's not skill. There's precisely zero skill in that. It's just mindless luck, and to me, that is not conducive to good game design.
-I only had to grind once in Xenoblade. The game is designed such that you are expected to do sidequests in between plot points, and I don't think that's bad design at all for a game so heavily focused on them. If the game didn't take sidequests into account, then you would find yourself in a position where everything is stupidly easy.
-Pacing is more of a problem with particular games than with the genre. I really haven't noticed any Pacing problems in the JRPGs I've played.
-I think that last point depends on a scenario. If a game has a mandatory mission and you have to go hunting down something like that, yes it's a problem. But when its one sidequest among many, I think it actually enhances world building more than anything. Maybe it's because I'm not a completionist to any degree whatsoever, but I love just happening upon a rare item that I need for a sidequest. It adds a feeling of discovery to the world rather than making it feel like some "resource garden" for you to go through the motions in. That's part of what I loved about Xenoblade's sidequest system. I'd collect hundreds of sidequests in my quest log with no expectation that I'd finish every one of them, but when I was venturing through the world fighting enemies, I'd happen upon something great.
The sidequests are grind in Xenoblade, for the large part. Go fetch X amount of Y, go kill 10 Z, etc. There are a few interesting, more involved ones, sure, but when I'm given Material Quest 5 for the ninth area I've visited and I know that means I'm going to be spending the next forty minutes killing and respawning a local mook umpteen times, and the only upshot is slowly gaining experience, that's grind. Running through dozens of those little blue orbs for 5 of some item is also grind. Take those quests out, leave the interesting ones in, and tweak levelling etc to rebalance it - you'll lose nothing of value.+
Personally, I don't find those sidequests enhance the world at all - they're frequently entirely text based (as is the case in Xenoblade). "Please find me a Moth Orchid" says the NPC. Later, you find a Moth Orchid. Or, the game tells you that you did. The word "Moth Orchid" appears on screen with a little generic treasure icon. What does a moth orchid look like? What is it for? I have no idea. Neither does the game. It's just a in-text-only item amongst dozens and dozens of others. They might as well be random word pairs plucked from a dictionary. You take it back to the NPC - will you see how it's used, get to see how it affects the character? Nope, because it's never used and it never affects the character in any way - they just say "thanks!" and the game pats you on the back. Well Done You Did The Thing. Now go do the fifty other things. The obvious counter to this is "well obviously no game has a big enough budget to get actual assets for every item and draw out full scenes for such trivial sidequests" - to which my response is "well then why are they there at all?"
Raylax
3DS Friend Code: 0173-1400-0117 | Nintendo Network ID: RaylaxKai
Game Over booting you to the title screen, forcing you to resume from whenever you last happened to save. Seriously, this was acceptable in the 80s when the tech was limited, but it's 2014 now. Stop it.
Artificial padding - tedious grind quests; "difficulty curves" defined simply by bashing everything up 6 levels and requiring you to go and level grind for a few hours; awkward, slow travel; etc. Xenoblade for example is fantastic, but it falls into a lot of these way too much, and as such I just can't bring myself to finish the thing.
Unskippable cutscenes - definitely not limited to JRPGs by any stretch, but they do seem particularly fond of it.
Pacing - overlaps a lot with artificial padding. But for me at least, an epic storyline loses some of its immersion if I'm waiting several hours (which could be several in-game weeks) between each important plot point.
Chance vs skill balance - RPGs of all varieties are always gonna be based on some random dice rolling due to their roots in board game RPGs. That in itself isn't a problem. But things like items with a 5% drop chance on a rare enemy, and I'm having to fight the thing over and over for multiple hours to get one? That's not skill. There's precisely zero skill in that. It's just mindless luck, and to me, that is not conducive to good game design.
I know it's not a new game, but where would you say Chrono Trigger falls in this? The sidequests are only actual sidequests, there is little need for grinding, unless you start avoiding enemies. But it does boot you back to the title screen each game over. Personally, I sort of like that. Not losing stuff, but it seems to make me try harder next time.
I will say Xenoblade's more annoying and grindy sidequests should've been changed, but most of them were really painless even at worst if you actually wanted to play the game beyond getting through the story. I agree they weren't Mass Effect 2 or Skyrim levels but the better ones were still solid. But to be fair, I genuinely adore exploring the world and the combat, so it depends.
Game Over booting you to the title screen, forcing you to resume from whenever you last happened to save. Seriously, this was acceptable in the 80s when the tech was limited, but it's 2014 now. Stop it.
Artificial padding - tedious grind quests; "difficulty curves" defined simply by bashing everything up 6 levels and requiring you to go and level grind for a few hours; awkward, slow travel; etc. Xenoblade for example is fantastic, but it falls into a lot of these way too much, and as such I just can't bring myself to finish the thing.
Unskippable cutscenes - definitely not limited to JRPGs by any stretch, but they do seem particularly fond of it.
Pacing - overlaps a lot with artificial padding. But for me at least, an epic storyline loses some of its immersion if I'm waiting several hours (which could be several in-game weeks) between each important plot point.
Chance vs skill balance - RPGs of all varieties are always gonna be based on some random dice rolling due to their roots in board game RPGs. That in itself isn't a problem. But things like items with a 5% drop chance on a rare enemy, and I'm having to fight the thing over and over for multiple hours to get one? That's not skill. There's precisely zero skill in that. It's just mindless luck, and to me, that is not conducive to good game design.
To be fair, a lot of these issues are just as present in western and japanese rpgs. In fact, western lootathons like diablo, or borderlands, or torchlight are probably the worst offenders on padding, pacing, and chance vs. skill balance. Game over boot to title is pretty sucky, though; autosaves are well over 20 years old now.
Artificial padding - tedious grind quests; "difficulty curves" defined simply by bashing everything up 6 levels and requiring you to go and level grind for a few hours; awkward, slow travel; etc. Xenoblade for example is fantastic, but it falls into a lot of these way too much, and as such I just can't bring myself to finish the thing.
Pacing - overlaps a lot with artificial padding. But for me at least, an epic storyline loses some of its immersion if I'm waiting several hours (which could be several in-game weeks) between each important plot point.
Chance vs skill balance - RPGs of all varieties are always gonna be based on some random dice rolling due to their roots in board game RPGs. That in itself isn't a problem. But things like items with a 5% drop chance on a rare enemy, and I'm having to fight the thing over and over for multiple hours to get one? That's not skill. There's precisely zero skill in that. It's just mindless luck, and to me, that is not conducive to good game design.
-I only had to grind once in Xenoblade. The game is designed such that you are expected to do sidequests in between plot points, and I don't think that's bad design at all for a game so heavily focused on them. If the game didn't take sidequests into account, then you would find yourself in a position where everything is stupidly easy.
-Pacing is more of a problem with particular games than with the genre. I really haven't noticed any Pacing problems in the JRPGs I've played.
-I think that last point depends on a scenario. If a game has a mandatory mission and you have to go hunting down something like that, yes it's a problem. But when its one sidequest among many, I think it actually enhances world building more than anything. Maybe it's because I'm not a completionist to any degree whatsoever, but I love just happening upon a rare item that I need for a sidequest. It adds a feeling of discovery to the world rather than making it feel like some "resource garden" for you to go through the motions in. That's part of what I loved about Xenoblade's sidequest system. I'd collect hundreds of sidequests in my quest log with no expectation that I'd finish every one of them, but when I was venturing through the world fighting enemies, I'd happen upon something great.
The sidequests are grind in Xenoblade, for the large part. Go fetch X amount of Y, go kill 10 Z, etc. There are a few interesting, more involved ones, sure, but when I'm given Material Quest 5 for the ninth area I've visited and I know that means I'm going to be spending the next forty minutes killing and respawning a local mook umpteen times, and the only upshot is slowly gaining experience, that's grind. Running through dozens of those little blue orbs for 5 of some item is also grind. Take those quests out, leave the interesting ones in, and tweak levelling etc to rebalance it - you'll lose nothing of value.+
Personally, I don't find those sidequests enhance the world at all - they're frequently entirely text based (as is the case in Xenoblade). "Please find me a Moth Orchid" says the NPC. Later, you find a Moth Orchid. Or, the game tells you that you did. The word "Moth Orchid" appears on screen with a little generic treasure icon. What does a moth orchid look like? What is it for? I have no idea. Neither does the game. It's just a in-text-only item amongst dozens and dozens of others. They might as well be random word pairs plucked from a dictionary. You take it back to the NPC - will you see how it's used, get to see how it affects the character? Nope, because it's never used and it never affects the character in any way - they just say "thanks!" and the game pats you on the back. Well Done You Did The Thing. Now go do the fifty other things. The obvious counter to this is "well obviously no game has a big enough budget to get actual assets for every item and draw out full scenes for such trivial sidequests" - to which my response is "well then why are they there at all?"
-I guess you can call it grinding, but for the most part, I completed these generic quests in the process of exploring the overworld. I would just happen to have killed X number of Y.I rarely, if ever, hunted down generic Bunnivs for experience. Most sidequests I did were part of the main gameplay. When I did go out of the way for a sidequest, it was one of the more involved quests, such as hunting down a Unique monster, finding a monster nest, or finding a hidden item.
-I have no idea why I called it world building. The whole 5% chance thing doesn't do much to build the world. The only possible contribution I may have been thinking of is that it requires you to interact with the world (including environments and monsters) much more than if you know exactly what you want and always get it. What I like about such random 5% chance things is the sense of discovery that comes from it. It's boring if I get the same thing every time from killing a certain monster. It's much more enjoyable to get that occasional rare chest and find something new in it. And like I said previously, with hundreds of active sidequests going on at once, you may find that the chest you found has that item a sidequest was looking for.
Currently Playing: Steamworld Heist, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Tales of Graces F
Did I just read someone call the art of Mass Effect drab.
Sorry I should've clarified. I didn't mean that the art of Mass Effect or any other WRPG's was drab. I was meaning that in comparison to a lot of JRPG's, WRPG's look drab. Just for comparison:
Also I realize it was rather stupid of me to include Mass Effect in the category with other WRPG's with drab artstyles. But my point still remains. WRPG's in general have more dull, colorless art than JRPG's. There are obviously a few exceptions where a WRPG looks more vibrant than a JRPG. Mass Effect is certainly more colorful than a number of JRPG's. But on average it seems, at least to me, that JRPG's have the more interesting art.
"The future doesn't belong to you!"
Waiting for: BOTW 2, Metroid Prime 4, Xenoblade Chronicles 3
Game Over booting you to the title screen, forcing you to resume from whenever you last happened to save. Seriously, this was acceptable in the 80s when the tech was limited, but it's 2014 now. Stop it.
Artificial padding - tedious grind quests; "difficulty curves" defined simply by bashing everything up 6 levels and requiring you to go and level grind for a few hours; awkward, slow travel; etc. Xenoblade for example is fantastic, but it falls into a lot of these way too much, and as such I just can't bring myself to finish the thing.
Unskippable cutscenes - definitely not limited to JRPGs by any stretch, but they do seem particularly fond of it.
Pacing - overlaps a lot with artificial padding. But for me at least, an epic storyline loses some of its immersion if I'm waiting several hours (which could be several in-game weeks) between each important plot point.
Chance vs skill balance - RPGs of all varieties are always gonna be based on some random dice rolling due to their roots in board game RPGs. That in itself isn't a problem. But things like items with a 5% drop chance on a rare enemy, and I'm having to fight the thing over and over for multiple hours to get one? That's not skill. There's precisely zero skill in that. It's just mindless luck, and to me, that is not conducive to good game design.
I know it's not a new game, but where would you say Chrono Trigger falls in this? The sidequests are only actual sidequests, there is little need for grinding, unless you start avoiding enemies. But it does boot you back to the title screen each game over. Personally, I sort of like that. Not losing stuff, but it seems to make me try harder next time.
I love Chrono Trigger, and the lack of much of the above probably helped. I recall being frustrated by a boot-to-title-screen on a few occasions, but the rest of the experience was good enough to overlook that one.
Raylax
3DS Friend Code: 0173-1400-0117 | Nintendo Network ID: RaylaxKai
I think a lot of why western RPGs come out on top, though, is because of how they handle player agency. They often focus on giving players choices, featuring different ways to accomplish quests, branching story paths, and a huge variety of customization when leveling up your character.
jRPGs are more likely to give players very pre-defined paths through the game and characters who are much more set in stone.
This pretty much nails it for me. In very few JRPG's are there any real consequences for anything you do. We have a particular experience we have in mind, and by golly are you going to experience it. While some people appreciate that as it generally allows the devs to create a more focused narrative (which are still never up to the quality of, well, any novel), but it does that by killing the chance of emergent gameplay.
A problem I have with a lot of recent JRPGs is that you have a party, but can only control one of those characters. I don't want to play co-op with AI. I really hope you can solo X, but I don't see that happening.
This is because you aren't playing as you. JRPGs are about telling you a story of someone else, and just bringing you along for the ride, using story to enhance gameplay and gameplay to enhance story. They aren't about putting you in an adventure where you can craft your own experiences. That's not to say JRPGs don't have non-linear storytelling though, as some have non-linearity stemming from character relationships, which is a major component of the game.
Though JRPGs really need better AI. I stopped putting Sharla on my team in Xenoblade because her AI was so incompetent.
Now I do agree with you that JRPGs need to improve story telling. If you are going make the player a passive observer, you need to make sure they are observing something good, but stories tend to get unnecessarily repetitive. I have no remote idea why they can't get someone to write an original story.
And as a side note, if the Harry Potter novels were ever converted into half decent games, JRPG would be the ideal genre to go with. It's a party focused narrative, and the Harry Potter world was born for RPG mechanics.
Currently Playing: Steamworld Heist, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Tales of Graces F
In principle I prefer JRPGs. The Final Fantasy series is the only reason I've ever played RPGs, or any serious games for that matter (before I encountered FF7, games were things in which you scored points and completed levels).
But in recent years, WRPGs have continued to grow and experiment with more approaches whereas JRPGs have done almost nothing that's improved on the PS1 era. In fact, they've probably moved backwards. The only JRPG that has come anywhere near the quality of the Mass Effect series has been Xenoblade Chronicles.
In principle I prefer JRPGs. The Final Fantasy series is the only reason I've ever played RPGs, or any serious games for that matter (before I encountered FF7, games were things in which you scored points and completed levels).
But in recent years, WRPGs have continued to grow and experiment with more approaches whereas JRPGs have done almost nothing that's improved on the PS1 era. In fact, they've probably moved backwards. The only JRPG that has come anywhere near the quality of the Mass Effect series has been Xenoblade Chronicles.
I partially agree, but I also think that most of the popular games for JRPGs are the issue. Most of the populars ones until really recently have been really samey or tried to be different and failed massively. I'll also say that while I love the Mass Effect series, it's usually not because of the gameplay. At least not the combat.
I would immediately recommend The World Ends With You if you want a JRPG that does some new things.
I personally like JRPGs better but I'm an anime fan so my opinion is obvious.
though WRPGs are also cool.
goodbyes are a sad part of life but for every end there's a new beggining so one must never stop looking forward to the next dawn
now working at IBM as helpdesk analyst my Backloggery
3DS Friend Code: 3995-7085-4333 | Nintendo Network ID: GustavoSF
JRPGs have been hit-or-miss for me, but the hits have mostly outweighed the misses. I've never been able to get into WRPGs, though; I see the appeal in them, but they're just not for me.
And as a side note, if the Harry Potter novels were ever converted into half decent games, JRPG would be the ideal genre to go with. It's a party focused narrative, and the Harry Potter world was born for RPG mechanics.
In a somewhat tangent idea, rather than having the novels converted, I'd prefer to have a wRPG developer like BIoware or Obsidian put together a Harry Potter game with an original story and a focus on making your own wizarding student. I don't think anything using the same story as the books will have much chance of catching people's attention.
I also think telltale could throw together a good adventure game from the material, if someone is making a new story.
Oddly enough, though I love JRPGs I don't like turn based battles at all. While strategy can be fun, It really never gets exciting and intense, and against grunt enemies, it's a complete snore. Though if a game could manage to relegate basic enemy fighting to an action system, and rely on turn based battles only for tougher enemies, ti could be interesting.
Currently Playing: Steamworld Heist, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Tales of Graces F
I like both but tend to have a problem with both.
My biggest problem with JRPGs is the fact that they've been around for so long that the stories and the characters tend to be really cliche at times. Even worse if you're a person (like me) who reads manga and watches anime.
With WRPGs my biggest problem is the whole making decisions in the game which really don't affect the game at all and worse is that you only get 2 choices and one of them is good and the other is evil (because in life you can only ever make 2 choices sarcasm).
And as a side note, if the Harry Potter novels were ever converted into half decent games, JRPG would be the ideal genre to go with. It's a party focused narrative, and the Harry Potter world was born for RPG mechanics.
In a somewhat tangent idea, rather than having the novels converted, I'd prefer to have a wRPG developer like BIoware or Obsidian put together a Harry Potter game with an original story and a focus on making your own wizarding student. I don't think anything using the same story as the books will have much chance of catching people's attention.
I also think telltale could throw together a good adventure game from the material, if someone is making a new story.
Go play chamber of secrets for GBC.
WAT!
Hey check out my awesome new youtube channel shingi70 where I update weekly on the latest gaming and comic news form a level headed perspective.
3DS Friend Code: 3093-7342-3454 | Nintendo Network ID: shingi70
And as a side note, if the Harry Potter novels were ever converted into half decent games, JRPG would be the ideal genre to go with. It's a party focused narrative, and the Harry Potter world was born for RPG mechanics.
In a somewhat tangent idea, rather than having the novels converted, I'd prefer to have a wRPG developer like BIoware or Obsidian put together a Harry Potter game with an original story and a focus on making your own wizarding student. I don't think anything using the same story as the books will have much chance of catching people's attention.
I also think telltale could throw together a good adventure game from the material, if someone is making a new story.
Go play chamber of secrets for GBC.
WAT!
Hey check out my awesome new youtube channel shingi70 where I update weekly on the latest gaming and comic news form a level headed perspective.
3DS Friend Code: 3093-7342-3454 | Nintendo Network ID: shingi70
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