Topic: Indie's ARE 3rd parties and yet they AREN'T.

A comment I saw recently made me think. I wont call anyone out, but someone said Nintendo was using indie to make up for a lack of 3rd parties. (putting aside the truth or lack thereof of that idea for now) 3rd party games, as I have always understood the term, were simply games that were not made by the maker of the gaming platform or by any studio owned by that company. So it would go to reason all indies are 3rd party games. No one would call a game made by Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft an Indie after all. But the gaming community in general does not treat indies as such, but rather a separate category entirely.

This made me think; Why do we do this? And; Where do we draw that nebulous line between indie and 3rd party?

I first remember the term "indie game" growing to prevalence around 8-10 years ago. I don't really remember it much, if at all before that. Does anyone know any good reading or perhaps videos on this topic?

@Heavyarms55
I don't care what are they called (3rd party / indie), as long their games are interesting, i will buy & play them.
Labeling them by indie / 3rd party has No effect for me.
They are Games, doesn't matter who create them.

I consider indies as 3rd party support. I dont understand why you wouldn't.

There's already a distinction between AAA/AA games and Indies. I think some people are just mixing terms at this point or don't understand their meaning.

I prefer to call them Indies because unfortunately many of them are shovelware and it is extremely hard to find good indies games among all the trash.
It is a reason they are put in the same boat as mobile games by many people.

I have very few Indie games and I still struggle to find good ones. Most indie teams either try to copy 99% of a successful game or try to be so original that they are just unnecessary stupid gimmicks that do not make any sense.

All indie teams should learn from:
Shovel Knight
Minecraft
Axiom Verge

Axiom Verge is like playing Metroid it is so well done and it is so similar to Metroid but it has its own charm.
Portal Knights is like Minecraft but with more twists and it works for them.

This is how Indie games should be. Unfortunately most of them are not.

The term indie is just ambiguous and as a result means different things to different people. Classifying a game based on the scale and structure of the business creating it leads to the genre being political for some and a label for low budget for others. You can talk to someone about indie music for 20 minutes before you realise you are talking about different things lol. If I'm honest, I overlook the label indie and focus on the actual game.

@Zuljaras That's a little harsh, don't you think? There are good few excellent indie titles out there. Stardew Valley, Night in the Woods, Golf Story, Iconoclasts, Hollow Knight, Binding of Issac, Undertale, and that's just to name a few. Yeah there are some shovelware junk titles too. But there is plenty of shovelware put out by triple A studios too.

@Anti-Matter I agree completely, a good game is a good game. But I am mostly trying to clarify the terms.

@Zuljaras
Hard to find good ones ? Here's a list of 20ish incredible nindies :
(I separated kinda-plateformer-like games from the rest cause I know some people can't stand them)

Gonner
Dead Cells
Hollow Knight
Celeste
Shovel Knight
The End is Nigh
Volgaar

Into the Breach
Old Man's journey
Gorogoa
Mini Metro
The Binding of Isaac
Don't Starve
Overcooked
Stardew Valley
Thumper
Rocket League
Fast RMX
Ikaruga
Worl of Goo/Lil Inferno/Human Resource Machine

@GrailUK I think we should put this assumption to the test and see if it's really true. Can you name some indie bands or records? Of course you're not going to name Michael Jackson, Sonny & Cher, Ike & Tina or Paul Daniels & Debbie McGee are you? I'm joking, but just name some - I want to see if your idea of indie music matches with mine.

@Heavyarms55 Isn't as simple as looking at someone like Nintendo or Ubisoft, and seeing that their games are made by one or more of their own 'studios' (with or without support from external studios) and as such any of those games are not from an independent studio but a studio/s subservient to a larger corporation.

So an indie game is any game developed by a studio that is not owned by a larger entity.

'Third-party' is a catch-all term for any developer that is not part of the hardware maker's corporation.

Those commenting on third party support are often referring more specifically to non-indie third parties just out of laziness/brevity.

No big deal though, cos its usually pretty obvious what people are on about, as in the example you cited. If they refer to indies and third party as separate things, clearly they mean the non-indie type of third party.

@Tibob It is a matter of taste. Most indies are way too childish for my taste so it is hard for me to find Indies to enjoy.

@Heavyarms55
Basically Indies = Little 3rd party games.
3rd party games with Low Budget that offer something different than typical AAA games.
You know, like Fashion model, there are models with height under 5'7 inch called "Petite Models".

@Heavyarms55 Well it is harsh I admit. But it is a matter of taste.

@spizzamarozzi ok I'll show my age. At one point you could call oasis blur stone roses as indie. But to most bands folk have never heard of like Hood seem to be more regarded as underground than indie. I'm no expert about music but there does seem to be a difference

I agree all indies are third party. However, as mentioned above by gcunit, people use indie as an umbrella term for smaller, more budget titles. Third parties I guess are thought of as being larger developers bringing larger, more expensive titles. Just a way to differentiate. Pretty sure you knew this though and its really a tirade against "certain people" wanting better third party support (indies non-inclusive).

@Zuljaras Well if it's your own personal taste, that's fair.

@Shellcore I did know that. It's less of an issue with people and more an issue with the way we label things. After working as an assistant language teacher for a few years, I've come to resent bits and pieces of English that when you are brutally honest about them, are unclear, inaccurate, or even outright wrong. It makes it really hard to teach the language at times. Sometimes I do have to tell the kids "Well, yeah, it's stupid and that's just how English is..." It feels bad. Indies are 3rd parties. So treating Indies as a different category entirely is wrong. But people do it anyway.

Also I was wondering where people draw the line between them. Would a 40 dollar game made in a studio with 25 people be indie? 20 dollars in a studio with only 5 people?

This.

@Heavyarms55 No arguments there. I feel there is room for another category for third party without resorting to AAA. Indies have their own. Movies have indies and "blockbusters". Bands have indies and signed. Games have "Third Party" and "Third Party Independents". BTW, also worked as an ELT in South Korea for a few years. Great fun.

@Shellcore Very nice!

@ReaderRagfish An excellent quote indeed.