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Topic: I think the thumbs down button was a mistake

Posts 61 to 80 of 98

antdickens

I think the change that’ll have the best impact (at least on articles) will be implementing threaded comments. The disorganisation of a single stream seems to cause difficulties with conversations and should be much cleaner should they be threaded.

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Cotillion

@antdickens Threaded comments would be fantastic.
Especially if they are minimized by default to the original comment and expanded to show replies if you want.

Cotillion

Eel

Oh my generic fantasy deity, that would be awesome, it gets so confusing following reply threads as it is now.

Sometimes I end up just searching for the usernames with the browsers search function.

Edited on by Eel

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JayJ

@antdickens Yeah good move, I still think you guys should make the dislikes hidden like they do on Youtube but having a thread like format for the comments would probably boost the community and make everything feel more organized. I know one problem I always have with the way people reference others is how I have to go back and try to find the person they are quoting, and when they have multiple comments it can get really confusing.

Edited on by JayJ

JayJ

JayJ

@Cotillion Actually it removes comments now if a comment gets 5+ dislikes, but that only effects non-users. Honestly this system has made this entire community very hostile and cliquish and it has turned the comments section into some sort of lame popularity contest where people just say things to get likes. It has also bred a mob mentality pushing negativity and creating a bubble like atmosphere.

It has gotten to the point where I am just over this site because it isn't what it used to be. This used to be a lighthearted and easy going community without any of these problems, and then this lame social credit system came in and completely ruined the vibe. It's one of those things where it wasn't that bad at first but it has slowly built up into a significant problem due to abuse from aggressive mob-like users.

Edited on by JayJ

JayJ

Joeynator3000

You know what else that bugs me? You can't see if your own posts got any dislikes or not...lol

I think the whole likes/dislikes thing is stupid in general, on any site, but still. >.>

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Maxz

I think I’m basically in agreement with @JayJ. While any site is going to have its fair share of comment sections scuffles, I do feel things have taken a turn for the hostile since the downvote button’s introduction. The sense of ‘playing to the crowd’ and ‘taking sides’ seems to have increased.

It’s just so easy to use. You have to power to publicly demote someone (albeit subtly), even if their opinion is only slightly out of line with yours. It seems to breed antagonism, as you never know from what corners the downvoting is coming from. At least with a written retort you have to publicly identify yourself and make some sort of a coherent case. Yes, wordy tirades are messy, but at least they take a certain amount of effort to initiate. A downvote is, if not an anonymous dagger in the back, then at least an uncomfortable prod. And I know we ourselves can’t see them, but the sense of being devalued on a public stage is still present.

As with so many things, people typically align themselves with particular sides of a debate, and then there develops an unwritten rule that everyone on Side A automatically downvotes anything that whiffs of Side B, and vice-versa. So you get people playing to their own side and denigrating the other, rather than voicing what might otherwise be their rather more middle-of-the-road thoughts on the matter at hand. I know this is a games site, but the ‘gamification’ of debate (with points constantly being awarded and docked by the community) isn’t a very healthy development in my eyes.

Between the ‘report’ button for people actually breaking the rules and the ‘mute’ button for people who you personally just find obnoxious, I feel most of the ground is covered. I only ever use those buttons once in a blue moon, but I’m glad they’re available when I do. The downvote button on the other hand, can be used countless times within a single day, and I think that notion of being able to relentlessly publicly demote people simply because you don’t agree with them feeds into the atmosphere of the site in general.

For contrast, I think the forums, which take a lot more effort to use and have no ranking system, are a much more pleasant, constructive and sociable place to be.

Edited on by Maxz

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Sisilly_G

@JayJ : It's almost as if social media encourages insecure people to parrot rhetoric for approval.

I also detest those who merely block people for possessing a dissenting viewpoint (though the ones doing the blocking are typically the ones insulting and generally being hostile to other users). I think I've been blocked by a few such people in the last week over an oblique comment I had made in response to a comment that attracted some "outrage". NL also contributes to some of the hostility on this website by posting articles likely to generate some rather... lively conversation, which has been occurring with greater infrequency in recent years.

It seems some have missed the memo that one ought not to discuss sex, politics, and/or religion in mixed company.

JayJ wrote:

Actually it removes comments now if a comment gets 5+ dislikes, but that only effects non-users.

Oh?

And what do you mean by "non-users"?

Edited on by Sisilly_G

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antdickens

I can understand some of the opinions here, although to think taking away the likes/dislikes you’d still have the same under lying problems. The discourse and toxicity around on the Internet has been growing and couple that with the fact our audience has grown massively in the last few years then I feel the root cause is bigger than the tools and features we implement. Pokemon SwSh is a good example where it, in my opinion, got way out of hand and still is a toxic subject for certain users. Realistically it’s video games and should never cause such extreme us/them mentality but this has been demonstrated across lots of sites, not just NL. We use all the same tools on Push Square for instance and a lot fewer issues, does that prove that they work? Who knows but it shows that perhaps the tools aren’t the issue.

Anyway, behind the scenes we’re always actively monitoring the community and developing improved ways to moderate it where necessary. Ideally we wouldn’t have to moderate it at all, but when users break the rules and make it a negative space we’re more than happy to ban them.

@antdickens
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Octane

@antdickens Would it be possible to increase the threshold? Say, 10 dislikes? Or even 20? Because now I'm seeing a lot of replies to comments that don't exist. Or maybe hide them instead, but with the option to reveal the comment if you want to read it. I think it's very easy to get 5 dislikes, so I feel that most comments will disappear quickly.

Octane

antdickens

@Octane yes, we’re still changing things. But the above is incorrect. Comments that hit a certain karma ratio are only hidden whilst they are reviewed by staff, if they aren’t breaking any rules then they are restored.

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Sisilly_G

Octane wrote:

@antdickens Would it be possible to increase the threshold? Say, 10 dislikes? Or even 20? Because now I'm seeing a lot of replies to comments that don't exist. Or maybe hide them instead, but with the option to reveal the comment if you want to read it. I think it's very easy to get 5 dislikes, so I feel that most comments will disappear quickly.

antdickens wrote:

@Octane yes, we’re still changing things. But the above is incorrect. Comments that hit a certain karma ratio are only hidden whilst they are reviewed by staff, if they aren’t breaking any rules then they are restored.

Ah, that explains why I occasionally can't trace replies back to the initial comment.

I just assume that the original commenter just became fed up with being dragged through the mud over an opinion and retracted their statement. It would have been useful to know that down-voted comments were being removed and monitored in the meantime.

I would not have thought that necessary when the option to report comments remains. I report comments due to spam/profanity if I happen to encounter them. I may have also reported one or two users in recent months for behaving in a hostile manner to other members. It is unfair that comments are removed after a few down-votes just because people don't like what is being said.

Edited on by Sisilly_G

"Gee, that's really persuasive. Do you have any actual points to make other than to essentially say 'me Tarzan, physical bad, digital good'?"

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antdickens

@Silly_G it’s not unfair when someone is trolling for a negative reaction that completely derails a thread. But like I said, we’re still changing how this works and the primary function is still reviewing comments that have been reported directly

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JayJ

@antdickens The whole "trolling" argument has been used as a blanket statement to justify stifling discontent.

JayJ

antdickens

@JayJ that’s a very blanket statement yourself.

The main purpose here is to have an active system that doesn’t always rely on user reports, if a comment gets massively downvoted in a short space of time that’s an indicator that something might need checking. I’m still changing the signals that cause these things to happen.

Realistically we’re not going to have a moderator or staff member reviewing user reports 24/7 therefore need to have a working system that takes bad behaviour out of sight until we’ve been able to verify it.

Naturally no one wants a system where every comment is checked before going live (Miiverse?!) but we still want to keep the site a safe place for people to talk and will actively seek new ways to do that unlike most websites.

@antdickens
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JayJ

@antdickens Well at least I can understand where you are coming from now, and I appreciate the insight. With that in context it makes some sense why you are trying to come up with some sort of self moderating system that isn't overbearing, but I feel as though you still have a lot of work to do in order to keep it from developing a mob mentality rule. I have seen this happen all the time and it is something that happens on occasion around here. I honestly feel like making the dislikes invisible to users is the only good solution to this problem as it discourages a mob like mentality taking over while allowing the dislike system to operate as intended. By allowing people to see how many dislikes there has been against a certain comment, especially if it has received an aggressive reply from someone with a contrary opinion, it isn't uncommon for users to jump on disliking it simply out of some sort of numbers game satisfaction.

JayJ

RR529

For curiosity's sake, I would actually like to see my own downvotes (I don't really get bogged down in the mudslinging that goes on in the comment sections though).

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antdickens

@JayJ thats why we limited it to only show up to 5 downvotes any more than that and it's just 5+ and doesn't show the actual figure. I assume you mean to just not display this at all, though?

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JayJ

@antdickens Yeah that is exactly what I mean. By showing 5+ you are really playing into the small cliques that love to downvote people just for thinking differently from them. If you don't show the downvote numbers at all then people will be far less likely to use the downvote button for nefarious purposes. By showing a number you are giving some people incentive to abuse it.

Edited on by JayJ

JayJ

Sorry, this topic has been locked.