Topic: Pokemon Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon discussion

Except he said both answers were connected. They're likely applying the same logic to both answers, they're making the games easier and shallower to appeal to mobile gamers that want a game they can play for 5 minutes at the bus stop.

And this is where Game Freak is misreading the market. That's true for mobile, yes, but that's because mobile gamers are just looking for quick time wasters and just view video games as part of a larger entertainment package in their mobile device. But console and handheld gamers are a little more invested in video games specifically and more willing to spend a lot of time and money on them. Game Freak is just looking at mobile and thinking the majority of their fans are like that, when that's not really true.

In the same way it's a 'design decision' for most open world games to copy paste content and have a story with no progression.

And heres the thing. If you design another 150+ new ones like in gen 5 you have the same problem. Not an overload of new but an overload of meh.

Or they could just, y'know, make 150 good designs like they used to. I'll never understand Pokemon fans that equivocate the series' mediocrity. We deserve a much more ambitious, bigger budget game than they hire the people to make.

And yet Pokemon Sun and Moon have the hunt for the Ultra Beasts, the Tapus and Battle Tree, so the trend of not making post game content didn't seem to last long. Same with the difficulty, which is considerably higher so... I fail to see why are some people so mad and worried? Things come and go on these games and people accuse GameFreak of milking the franchise and yet they are there, formed at day one with their glass, ready to consume and then bash the product in a never ending cycle.

It really baffles me how can someone call pokemon games "mediocre". Yes, whatever entry didn't live to your personal standards but it's entirely different to qualify them as that. Really, if the thing is getting stale for you, pass on it the next time, allow it to be more fresh and have more content for you. It's like most gamers are completely entitled and can't understand that even if something wasn't their cup of tea, one can try to have an objective view and judge the game for what it is and recognize the steps in the right direction. Managing the balance between offering a new experience and yet keeping the essence of the games while pleasing most people isn't easy and there's no magic answer even if you think you have it.

Improvements:

1-They delivered a better story than most entries (say what you want about it but considering that most games have barely any character development and suffer from one dimensional characters this was a considerable improvement, especially over X and Y).

2-They improved the use of HMs, making them more practical and fun to use and making exploration less tedious.

3- Improved graphics.

4- They returned to have post- content.

5- They tried to change the gym formula with the trials, which do feel quite similar but t least they did try to do something different.

6-Now you are actually the champion and defend your title against different trainers, while in the other games there were barely any changes in this area and facing the champion was the same thing over and over.

7-they introduced many new pokemon that actually work in the competitive scene and that have new abilities that impacted the competitive scene.

8-They introduced z moves, that in the end, despite being mostly flashy, are viable and can change a battle in the right hands.

9. They even added the pokemon variants, that while many can see them as lazy it was actually a good way to present old pokemon in a new way to keep the experience fresh and even use them differently.

Sure, there were things that I didn't like in this new generation like the removal of being able to ev train pokemon without getting items that ironically required ev trained pokemon to get. Having to fish in predetermined areas was a terrible idea too. Overall, I didn't enjoy them as much as X and Y simply because I didn't play the 4th and 5th entries, which made those games feel more exciting and fresh since there was so much to discover. The region was beautiful but considering that I live in a tropical place, it also didn't feel as exciting as Kalos. Having said that, I can see how these entries are a step forward because I'm not blind.

What I'm trying to say is, that pokemon are polished games that have a really succesful formula and that if you expect several changes in the next entries, prepare to be dissapointed. A slow progression to deliver a better experience is the formula that has worked for them despite the many complaints and arguments of having inferior new entries and that won't change as long s they have this massive success. People have been saying that everyone will eventually get tired of them and well, more than 15 years have passed since I heard that for the first time and they are more successful than ever. New generations that aren't tired of them will come and keep enjoying them even after we stop playing. Sure, not every new entry will be as successful or well received as some of the past ones, but whoever thinks that's a sign of the franchise finally ending is delusional. The franchise has so much potential to grow and they will, but not at the pacing you want.

Not saying people can't complain, but... what's the point if you have realized that? Feel alarmed if you see them actually dropping quality, but not the subjective one that is defined from what we like. I'm talking about the one where you can't sincerely see any development. Look at Sun and Moon and tell me that you actually think: "they didn't try with the story", "they did nothing to the visuals", "they didn't do anything to improve the exploration", "the designs are lazy" or simply "I can't see how they improved the game at all".

Wanna have a new experience while also having everything you loved about those games? Skip a couple generations. Don't get burned out by them.

@roy130390 I'm an old fart looking for a simple Pokemon game like they used to be. Ditch all that unnecessary story nonsense, and ditch the linear world design. Up the difficulty a bit, bring back the gym (there was nothing wrong with them), no need for all that Z move and mega evolution flashiness, bring back proper fishing, and I thought HMs were fine too (I liked the choice, the sacrifice you had to make, give them an HM and obtain more items throughout your journey, or don't and miss out on those). I even preferred the one-time use TMs, made them feel like a bigger deal.

I know, I know, I'm going back to play some gen I or II...

@roy130390 It's not a matter of lack of progression, it's a matter of design philosophy, they could have 1000 years to progress the formula but if they're stuck on this casual pandering kick like they always have, they're not going to improve in some of the areas that people want improved.

Prime example is what's happened to the exploration. Not only did it not progress in the last several generations, but it's actually regressed in that area. Some of the older regions actually had multiple paths and more optional areas and backtracking. Now though? It's basically a linear path from start to finish. That's not progressing the formula, that's changing your entire goal for the game design. And no amount of time or technology can change that if the game is designed that way.

Additionally, just because there's progress doesn't mean the game is good. If you go from making the worst game in the world to making a bad game, that's progress, but that doesn't mean it deserves praise. SM have made some improvements, yes, but Game Freak has been largely deaf to the complaints about the decrease in difficulty, content, and open-endedness and brush them off as insignificant. Hence why those groups of people don't find the experience better. If the game is really progressive it should have something for everyone, but it doesn't, the current design philosophy intentionally alienates players looking for a deeper experience. The issue isn't about a lack of change, but the kinds of changes they do or don't include in the games and the recent games fail to be balanced experiences that appeal to a wide variety of fans.

Early screen of CoroCoro leaked and what looks to be alternate Lycanroc evo:

http://serebii.net/corocoro917.jpg

Don't expect any other leaks until the 10th or the 11th.

@Bolt_Strike Call it design phylosophy.. whatever that is, but as long as the games sell well what's the point? Why would they want to improve for said people? To be approved by them as great games? What people and how do you know they are the majority? If they aren't more, and their desired "improvements" collide with what most people actually want, it would prove counterproductive for them. What if "being stuck on this casual pandering kick like they always have" is what makes them more succesful? What if that's what most people want and those aspects you considered as "stuck" are the ones that make most people consider them great?

Having a different kind of exploration is hardly changing your entire goal for the game design, considering that while exploration is part of the focus of the game, training and catching pokemon to fight and become the strongest is the core aspect of the game and despite the changes the game's design still goes around that. Also, that's what I'm talking about when people exaggerate and can't recognize improvements where they are: Ok, you don't like that the exploration feels more linear, but saying that it haven't progressed in any area and that it just regressed isn't true. I mean, just the removal of HMs is a proof of improvement.

Just because it doesn't fill your expectation doesn't mean it's bad or mediocre either, specially for most people. Considering that the games started being considered great and that the idea of progress is pretty much improvement, I hardly see how can they be bad now, even if standards are also getting higher. How are they deaf to complaints if they just improved the difficulty? If they returned the post game content? I mean, it's exactly the example I'm talking about of not being able to recognize that even if they don't deliver everything you want, they do listen. For those groups of people that don't find it better there's also several thousands that love the new entries. Also, for those that want something because they see it as a improvement, there's also many that don't want it. Which opinion is more valid for them to consider if they contradict? Yours? What tells you that you know what most people want? They want to be succesful, they improve based on the feedback they receive and try to appeal to most of the players.

"The issue isn't about a lack of change, but the kinds of changes they do or don't include in the games and the recent games fail to be balanced experiences that appeal to a wide variety of fans."

No, that's your issue and the issue from the people that share that feeling and that's what you aren't seeing. That "wide variety" is based on a calculation from what you have seen, while the game's success in terms of sales is something that they actually have in numbers.

@Octane It's understandable. Your opinion is exactly what I mean about them not being able to please everyone. Sometimes something considered inovative or important to improve isn't what others want. For example, the story, which I always saw people demanding better stories and yet some pople don't care about it. It's really hard to have the majority of people pleased with an entry that appeals to everyone, felling fresh and classic at the same time. It's really simple but for some reason people don't seem to understand it and they all think they have the perfect formula to make the ideal pokemon for everyone. In your case, you are aware of that, despite the franchise changing into something that differs from what you wanted from the series.

@Tsurii Shape-wise it looks like the midday form, but it has the colours of the midnight form. I don't know if those white spikes are part of the design, in that case it may be a weird mix of the two.

@Tsurii Yeah, but his mane looks a bit more like midnight, you know, Skuntank-style, from its back all the way over its head.

I like both. Midday form is certainly the more interesting of the two I think. We don't get fast Rock types too often, and this one even gets a priority move. And Vital Spirit is a worse ability than Sand Rush.

Anyway, I just noticed that the new form has green eyes (as opposed to blue for midday and red for midnight). Remember that green flash from the episode preview?

Looks like we are getting a new Lycanroc.

If an Electric Wooper shows up we know what to do.

@BLP_Software Realise it's fake?

@Octane Well here comes a new Lycanroc. So who knows?

@BLP_Software If you're talking about the Electric Wooper 4chan rumour, that's definitely fake. Here's the ''leaked'' image that came with the rumour: http://i.4cdn.org/vp/1501439871851.png (I apologise, you have to copy the URL yourself, it doesn't work otherwise). Most ''rumours'' talk about a new Lycanroc form (or forms), so that's nothing new. But this specific ''rumour'' talked about a Rock/Fairy Lycanroc (kinda weird since the original forms didn't change type either), that has pink eyes, and we know the new form has green eyes. The rumour also called it the ''Eclipse Form'', and we know the new form doesn't have anything to do with eclipses. The episode clearly showed a scene during sunset, so I think that's going to be the trick that makes Rockruff evolve into this new form. The green flash (a phenomena that appears during sunset/sunrise), the green eyes, it all lines up.

Yep its a new Lycanroc form(s) are both real and tommorow, we're getting something finally for Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon news on Poketchi from Shigeru Ohmori (again I doubt anything else other than the Lycanroc form(s) reveals.)

One interesting thing is that it seems to have a black horn or possibly an incorporation of Necrozma on it.

@Octane Global Link says 4 Lycanroc now right? No reason and eclipse cant happen. Its not likely but given the entire thing with Necrozma is absorbing and refracting light...who knows.

@BLP_Software Did you see the image I linked? That rumour also claimed a trailer would release three days ago. It's fake. Some already spotted the inconsistencies with Hoothoot's ''Psychic Vision'', and looking through the rumour right now, I also see that Wooper was supposed to get Nuzzle, a move previously exclusive to the Pika-clones (not impossible to break that convention, but unlikely).

That being said, if an Eclipse Form happens, it will be unrelated to that rumour, and it will be a coincidence. I still think that Sunset and Sunrise Forms make more sense given the context.

@Octane Wait for the leak to come out of China with the word confidential slapped over it

Apparently Japan is getting the world first news about these games on Pokenchi show and there's a picture that looks like Lyranoc on the cover of Corocoro but there's a few atheistic changes and a different colour scheme. All this according to Serebii

@Pokefanmum82 Yeah, we've been over that already. If you're interested, we've dissected the info on the last page. We're quite the detectives you know! ''cough.. cough..''

Anyway Pokenchi airs tomorrow in Japan; however that's today in our time, kinda. 00:00 in the UK and 01:00 tomorrow in mainland Europe. About nine hours from now.

Oh I didn't know that......I didn't check the previous page....just this one....I'm pretty excited though