
Earlier today we shared a rather nice detail about the development of Donkey Kong Country Returns, courtesy of an excellent interview on Reece Reilly's Kiwi Talkz podcast with former Retro Studios developer and senior designer, Mike Wikan. Naturally a lot of the interview focused on the Metroid Prime games, in which Wikan played a big role, and there are some interesting nuggets of information that show how the series came together in the GameCube / Wii era.
A segment that intrigued us, primarily because of our love for Metroid Prime Trilogy on Wii, related to how that compilation came together. Wikan explains that it was a team of just four that did the core recompiling and control changes for the Wii release, which is impressive. It followed on from a segment in which he talked about the infamous boss encounters for Spider Ball and Boost Ball in the original version of Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, and how they were 'fixed' for the trilogy bundle.

Tanabe-san (co-producer) was more about the nuts and bolts. We need more of these pick-ups here, we need to balance it there. There was one internal case that I got frustrated with that we made right later. In Echoes, there are two spider boss guardians, Spider Ball and Boost Ball guardians, and they're notoriously difficult to beat in the original versions. Murderously bad, throw your controller on the ground, and give Mike Wikan the finger wherever you are.
That was a tuning change that was made in the last three days before we went gold. Tanabe-san really fought for it, 'we need to make it tighter', and we were like 'no it's already too tight'. We made it tighter and it turned out to be too tight, right?
So, back when we did Trilogy, which was another interesting project. We had four of us doing the entire trilogy recompile. So, four of us taken aside, and tore apart all three games and put them together again for Trilogy with its control scheme. Just four of us, no pressure!
But what we got to do was go back in, I was the only designer on the team that had done all three games. So I knew where all of the skeletons were buried; I'd scripted most of the game, designed the AIs and that stuff, so I knew all the broken crap under the hood that I never could fix. Stuff most people would never know was there. The people doing speedruns knew they were there because they'd beat against every corner of every room until they found a way through. So we had an opportunity with Trilogy to fix those things, because they'd been bugging me ever since.
So I went back in and changed the guardians back and let Tanabe-san know I was putting it back to the way it was! He was like 'ok Wikan-san you were right, that's perfectly ok'.
If you continue the video from that segment there's also a hugely interesting section (13:14 onwards) talking about how closely Nintendo monitored and managed the lore in the games, making numerous fixes so that games would fit in the Metroid universe. There's also a fascinating insight into the Luminoth language and how that actually works - it's elaborate hand signing.
Of course we're still hoping that the neverending rumours are actually true and we get a 'HD' release of Metroid Prime Trilogy; it's an outstanding package of games, and well worth introducing to a whole new audience.
Let us know your memories of these bosses in Echoes, or perhaps if you discovered that game in the Trilogy release on Wii.
[source youtube.com]
Comments 55
Surely if such a small team could do it on the Wii, Nintendo could easily whip up an HD port for the Switch.
I have the digital trilogy on my wii u eshop. I played Prime on GC to completion... Only played about 20 minutes of the other 2.... Need to finish echos and prime 3. Time to dust off the wii u instead of wait for a switch release.
What’s holding up a Switch release?
@Wavey84 Yes, Echoes is very much worth playing and feels pretty different to the 1st and 3rd game. Some really great alien designs like the luminoth mentioned in the article. Probably the hardest in the trilogy to beat, in fact I still haven't, but I loved what I played
Woof, I can't believe Tanabe fought for those bosses to be harder. It took me weeks to get past that as a kid.
@Wavey84 Echoes is definitely the weakest in the trilogy. It's still a good game, but I wouldn't bend over backwards to find a copy and play it. If you have a copy that's easily accessible, you might as well give it a run through, though. It's worth your time, but maybe not your money.
@DrJoson Echoes is my favorite Prime game.
Can't wait for a switch port! 60$ plus additional fee for a Amiibo with a exclusive in game function that's literately useless.
Prime 2 is the only one I never completed, and I’m looking forward to replaying all these on my switch someday. I could on my Wii U, but my gamepad doesn’t work in the car like my switch
Yeah Echoes is my fav of the trilogy. The atmosphere, and the different alien biomes are really unique in that game.
If they do end up porting the trilogy to switch I hope they include the option for the original gamecube controls. I'm sure I'm probably in the minority but I actually prefer it to the motion controls.
@Wyatt006 Eh, not so much. When they made the original trilogy, they really didn't have to learn new hardware as the Wii was more or less just a GC with improved specs. An HD port on Switch would require recompilation, not to mention having to convert from the GC/Wii design of using a fixed-pipeline, TEV unit, etc to the Switch design that utilized programmable shaders among other things. Its conversion would probably play out similar to SSHD, which while not as heavy as making a game from scratch, but still had a good amount of development behind it that wasn't so easy.
Metroid has such cool lore. It's a shame they stopped doing as much with it. Hopefully Dread and Prime 4 will fix that.
Well get a core dev team of 4 and get that trilogy on switch. Literally money sitting on the table for Nintendo. Absolutely absurd of them not to release this in the consoles Prime (no pun intended)
@Wyatt006 @Discostew - literally the same guy we're quoting in this video who was 25% of the MPT team says porting to Switch is extremely difficult and unlikely.
https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2021/05/metroid_prime_trilogy_switch_port_unlikely_says_former_retro_studios_dev
@mattmanvsuperman Same here. We've heard about this for three years now. Let me know when it actually gets announced.
@erikharrison True, but as I mentioned in the comments of that article, that dev left the company back in 2011. He wouldn't know about a port if one was happening.
@Bratwurst35 get a job, easy $60.
@Arkay You could stand to try harder than that poor insult mate. But hey, ateast I'm not a sucker.
I predict we'll get Metroid Prime Trilogy HD for the Switch around the same time we get the Switch Pro.
@Mountain_Man Yeah, it's also the same day I win the lottery.
Which means it's around: never.
Boost Guardian was brutal, but I don't remember the Spider Guardian being that bad.
@Wavey84
Echoes is the only prime game I did not replay because it's not as fun as the others. As well - not that I mind a difficult game - but it is frustrating to find where and what to do next. Hope this helps.
Sony: A top selling blockbuster game needs to cost $150M to make with teams of thousands of staff around the world.
4 Dudes at Nintendo: U mad bro?
I would literally offer up my firstborn if it meant getting the Prime Trilogy in HD on Switch. (not that I have any kdis but still)
@NEStalgia if it takes so few people at Nintendo to make games then if they simply employee the same amount of people other companies do for one AAA game then shouldn’t they be releasing a new game every month?
@Discostew You are right, he wouldn't know, but I'm not saying he does. I was saying that if you want to use Mike Wikan's words here to say that MPT would be "easy", the same guy already explained that isn't.
He says 1) That the tools to work with the Prime codebase no longer exist (likely because they depend on SGI machines which they stopped making in 2006 and then the company went under) and 2) that the specific nature of the controls that he himself built for Corruption don't map onto gyro from the Joy-Cons, which you could rebuild but then you'd need the tools that you don't have.
I would love to play MPT on Switch. Hope it happens - but that probably requires Dread and Prime 4 to do well before Nintendo would front what looks like a pretty high porting bill
I never actually had trouble with Spider Guardian on either version.
Only Boost Guardian.
But the bosses in general were harder in MP2.
Am I the odd one out?
@sixrings Why sell 100 cheaply made games at $60 at once when you can sell 100 cheaply made games at $60 3 times each over 100 years?
WOW, only 4 developers worked on Metroid Prime Trilogy that impressive.
@Don Metroid Prime 4 release problaby, Nintendo problaby want to release Metroid Prime Trilogy when Metroid Prime 4 is 6 months/1 year to release on Switch.
@erikharrison I find it hard to believe the codebase/tools don't exist when it's well known that Nintendo archives everything. Hell, Square Enix had to come to Nintendo for a copy of their old stuff when they lost theirs. And while Wilkan can make the claim that his control method wouldn't work with other control schemes, that's from his point of view.
@Discostew You clearly have never worked in software development If development depended on hardware from a company that doesn't exist anymore, Nintendo can archive everything they want, it still won't run.
No one is saying MPT on Switch is impossible, they're just saying it's harder than it seems like. Wikan is the only senior dev/designer who worked on all three games plus the port of Trilogy. If anyone would know how hard it is, it's him. Why are we crapping on this person when all they're saying is "this is hard" and saying it in terms that every software developer understands?
Metroid prime is my favorite game series. Prime 1 is my favorite game ever, it's fantastic on the Wii. All of them are. I do wish they kept echoes the same. I remember battling that game for months to beat it, incredible experience. Games like echoes are so rare, it was really long and super difficult. Sanctuary fortress is crazy and you never even see it until you are really far in. These games need to see switch release they are ALL masterpieces, even prime 3 is amazing but is the weakest of the 3
i panicked to see if there was a shadow drop of the prime games, nope false alarm
@Bratwurst35 I'm not the one that can't afford a simple $60 game. You have time to save up for it. Easy peasy.
@Mariotag Nope, I also never had trouble with Spider Guardian on Gamecube or Wii. It was only Boost Guardian and Emperor Ing that ever gave me trouble.
@Wavey84 Prime 2 Echoes is my favorite game in the trilogy. I found that I had the most fun replaying it (I replayed all 3 this past year). It is definitely more difficult than the other 2, but it never felt unfair to me.
@Thaliard to me, corruption is the weakest - by far. I don't have a single friend that looks back fondly on that game. Like...period. It just felt really off - it had the same issue that hunters had in that it just wasn't cohesive.
Prime 1 felt best, an Prime 2...only complaint i ever heard was that, now infamous, bosses was insanely hard and they had me do it for them.
@erikharrison Considering that Metroid Prime Trilogy released in 2009, 3 years after SGI stopped making hardware....but, why is it that the only information I can gather regarding SGI and Nintendo is with the N64? Where was it said that Retro Studios were using SGI workstations to make the Prime Games on both GC and Wii, including the trilogy?
And seriously? The software development comment? Have you made/ported any games to go calling someone else on that?
@Wavey84 an thats great! personal preference is always the thing that should be taken the most seriously.
for us prime 1 was the best one. its too short but the one that felt most metroid. Metroid has always been about you traversing planets (or space stations lol) on your own, with safe areas places with someone to talk to. 3 definitely broke that. I just had a lot of personal beef with it, as did my friends. We didn't hate the game, far from it. We just think its the weakest of the three, in terms of story, setting, an gameplay.
@Discostew I wasn't calling you on anything here. I was just saying that the problem Wikan mentions - namely that they can no longer work with the codebase - is not uncommon. I assumed you don't work in software because you've not seen that problem, but maybe I'm wrong?
Wikan's point is just that the technology that Prime 3 is built on makes it very hard to port to Switch, and so that port by itself will cost a lot more money than most ports. I really hope that Nintendo shells out the cash for MPT on Switch. I would love to play it.
He was the senior designer on all three games and was the lead on Trilogy. If he says it's going to be expensive and he says it's for totally understandable, common reasons, why are we fighting about him being wrong?
If you have background in MP3's code (or the problem in general) I'm genuinely curious. Working with old software development tools is a hobby of mine, and if you know that Wikan I would love to know.
If the Metroid Prime Trilogy did not exist, I likely would have never replayed Metroid Prime or beat Echoes. The Trilogy in my opinion made both GCN games great rather than have flashes of greatness. I remember forcing my way through Metroid Prime originally with its stiff controls, and maybe beat Amorbis before Dark Torvus Bog completely turned me away from Echoes on the GCN. I'm glad I was able to enjoy all three games on the Wii, and gladly double dip the digital release on Wii U. If Metroid Prime Trilogy HD ever comes to the Nintendo Switch, I'll get the collection for a third time. These three aren't my favorites of the series, but they are still great experiences that I would like to enjoy further on the Switch.
@erikharrison Yes, he was, but we also need to take into account that he hasn't been with the company for the span of a decade, so what he's claiming is based on his understanding prior to his departure. For all we know, Nintendo could have had someone between then and now go over the codebase to get it working, and someone else look into a conversion to traditional controls for MP3.
Not saying the guy wasn't a genius. I'm just saying that a decade is a long time to think nothing has changed.
I hope we can have the default Prime control scheme as an option. Forced motion aiming killed Trilogy for me.
@Nalverus That's fair. Honestly, it's been a decade since I played either game, but I remember being incredibly happy with the pointer controls of Corruption and being rather disappointed with Echoes as a follow up to Prime. Echoes just felt like an expansion pack to Prime to me.
@AnnoyingFrenzy
Oh, absolutely Emperor Ing! I actually ran out of ammo a couple times.
I also sometimes suffered against Quadraxis, and I forget the boss of the bog.
@Mariotag That would be Chyyka. A very fun boss. Quadraxis is probably my favorite boss in the Metroid series. Its a ton of fun and super satisfying to take down.
Agreed.
I did have some trouble at first, as I didn't know the boost ball had been upgraded so it can attack.
@Wavey84
Metroid Prime 2 is my favorite of the Trilogy. Absolutely worth playing.
Some don't like it's backtracking but, when I played it I had no job and all I did was wake up, play 10 hrs and go to sleep, dream about the Ing (seriously, I was having dreams about them I was playing so much), get up and do it all over again.
I want Metroid Prime Trilogy HD for the Switch!!!!!
Man, I don't remember those spider bosses. It really has been years since I played it. That's it, if no Trilogy is announced for Switch I'm going back to GC
@TheWingedAvenger
Would be nice. But no motion controls for the first two games. I can't stand the controls in the Trilogy version.
Port it to Switch ALREADY!!@!#!#@$!!@$
@Cia You could still use a gamecube controller in the trilogy on first two games. I thought it made the experience better myself. It would obviously let you do either in order for it to be portable.
@Trmn8r
It was possible? I never knew. I tried google it, but everywhere it just says you can't use anything but Wii mote and nunchuck.
Show Comments
Leave A Comment
Hold on there, you need to login to post a comment...