Paper Mario: The Origami King Almost Had EXP After All

I really liked this game - had it's flaws but I foud it very enjoyable.
My Girlfriend got bored of the battling mechanic by the Earth Vellumental and gave up.

While the battles are pointless (but at least the bosses are fun) I also like that I'm not forced to do battle cause grinding can be so annoying at times (like in more traditional rpgs like octopath traveler)

Best thing would probably be an exp system where you don't have to grind too much to get lv ups/keep up with the enemies

@mariomaster96
So, basically what Mario & Luigi did all the time.
You can manage the endgame boss at Level 40, usually.

Having now played most of the game I don't miss the XP. Grinding is never fun so it's not actually a problem- the fun of the game is enjoying the story and the puzzles - having a number go up arbitrarily to give the illusion of getting stronger while the enemies all get stronger in line doesn't seem necessary.

Meh, you kind of levelled with the amount of hearts you had, so that worked in my opinion. Nothing wrong with it.

Yeah, I'd be okay with Paper Mario series coming to a halt while the Mario & Luigi series would still be made.

Of course having both would be the best. Point is I prefer M&L as an rpg series.

I bet if they had added EXP points, haters would have said nothing about the game, and actually tried it before saying everywhere it´s a piece of crap.
So much would´ve changed, just because of a simple thing...

Exp. is not necessary if the combat is fun. That is almost the case with Origami King, but after a while it gets a bit repetitive.

Towards the end I just paid the toads to sort the puzzle mechanic for the battle for me 😂
Tbh without earning xp or gaining items the battles were a bit pointless but the exploration and areas made it worth playing

RPG games without EXP is like Ramen Noodles without noodles.
Even quirky RPG like Miitopia still have EXP and important parameters.

@the_beaver Not for me, anyways. The ring system just doesn't look fun to me, and the thing I've always missed most about the old Paper Mario games was the original characters and intricate story. EXP alone would have done very little for me.

@mariomaster96 the grinding issue is fixed by having the story enemies progress at the same rate as the xp you gain from completing the story. Additional content, extra dungeons, optional bosses can be much more difficult for those who want to grind. I, personally don’t mind grinding given that the progression isn’t forced to a crawling pace, and that the battle system isn’t convoluted. Octopath felt that way for me; while the break system was interesting and challenging for boss fights, it became tedious and longwinded when grinding encounter after encounter.

I definitely enjoyed Origami King. After being annoyed at first about there being no xp or really any incentive to battle (other than like twice when I needed more confetti) but eventually I was satisfied with the sense of progression the game offered. But, holy Hell, those battles were tedious. I was done with the ring battle system before the first boss. The boss battles were interesting and fun and just challenging enough, but every other encounter I felt inclined to spam coins (of which there were plenty) just to get it over with. I played the entire game trying to avoid every encounter that I possibly could. It’s difficult to imagine the developers not foreseeing how quickly that battle system would go stale. At least it did for me, I’m sure some people loved it.

If they took exp out then I'd have removed that battle system as its largely redundant and a bit annoying. Away from the battle system I'm really enjoying the game overall and I'd have been happy to just fight enemies as you're wandering around the world

Removing the XP allowed for the game to be simple enough for any player to understand. However, it also removed the general incentive to battle because coins aren't too big of a concern, especially if most of the expensive items are entirely optional and are usually collectors.

@beuiz So you don't like a reward for battles? Just passing through level without much upgrade? ok... I want reward.. that's why I can't play new Castlevania clones that has no level up like Castlevania Symphony of the Night. I want reward for killing monster. give me motivation to explore every inch of the map and reward me for doing it. Well each his own

@Anti-Matter You are correct. However you are forgetting one very simple thing: Paper Mario The Origami King is not an RPG.

@carlos82 I agree totally! The world was beautiful and was fun to explore. My only other real complaint outside of the battles is that the velumental dungeons were kind of all the same and not very interesting. The ice one was better with the inclusion of the sliding block puzzles, but after resetting the blocks like three times it SHOWS YOU THE ANSWER! I mean what even is the point of the puzzle?

@Wak_mbpt That's just to keep you from getting stuck. You know younger players could have problems completing the harder puzzles. Nintendo has been hiding "helper" functions in their games for years now.

Paper Mario: Origami King was almost a good game.

Experience does not equal grinding and the Paper Mario games basically prevented it anyway by reducing the experience gain from weaker enemies as you levelled up.

@Not_Soos Paper Mario 64 intricate story?? Really?? XD. It´s NOT better than the ones in Color Splash and Origami King. I suggest you give them a chance, at least to TOK.

@sanderev I mean I understand why that function was there. I was just disappointed that I was finally (like 70% of the way through the game) enjoying one of the puzzles in this “puzzle based” game, then the game crapped all over my having a good time.

That seems like an appropriate metaphor for the entire game actually. It’s really not bad, and I want to have fun with it, but as soon as I start to the devs slap on some more silly bs to make sure it doesn’t happen.

ITS final hes broken.

Okay, okay fine. I'm fine with this being an action adventure genre, but please, at least do something about Mario and Luigi. A big budget, console game of that would be a good alternative for rpg junkies. Or just focus on fire emblem, intelligent systems does that as well.

@the_beaver

Thousand-Year Door and Super do, anyways. Paper Mario 64 still had really enjoyable moments between chapters (i.e., the mystery of Tubba Blubba, finding Bowser's diary during the Peach segments) and really solid gameplay to top it off. I've watched an entire playthrough of both Color Splash and Origami King, but they just don't do it for me. I mentioned this in a other comment recently, but even the jokes fall flat for me. I think the humor in the old games is pretty timeless, but with this new direction, it's the sort of meme humor you would find on Twitter that I don't think is gonna hold up very well. Also lots of puns, which in my opinion are among the lowest form of comedy. And again, the lack of original characters just makes it impossible for me to get invested in the world, which Paper Mario 64 at least had going for it.

I don't mean to disrespect your opinion though, that's just how I feel. I'm glad you've been able to find enjoyment where I haven't.

While i dont miss the exp i do wish the game had a boss rush mode to add some repayability to it, also mario is way too slow. Why do they have a coffee item that speeds you up for like 5 seconds? That could've been an accesorie

EXP is pointless in most games.
You level up, the enemies level up. The difficulty is basically the same all the way over and over again in a bad circle.

I just played Forza Horizon 4 a bit. I'm level 280 there. The difficulty is the exact same as a player at only level 1.

Didn't Colour Splash have EXP system? Play that instead. It sold better than the original Paper Mario game, after all, so it must be objectively higher in quality...

So much conversation about what these games are NOT. The first two games in the series were great, but Nintendo has moved on from that concept and everyone else should too.

I enjoyed it. Didn’t really need it.

Come expecting a fun game that will make you laugh on your boring commute, and you won’t be disappointed.

I don't really miss it with regards to THIS game tbh.

@Ventilator Apples and oranges.

@Moonlessky I think it does have a boss rush- it's in the battle training shop in Toad Town. Pretty sure you can re-fight the bosses in there and get those trophy things for doing it.

@Alucard83 The motivation for exploring each area of the map is to rescue all the toads, get all the trophy things in the treasure chests and cover up all the holes. A lot of that stuff you need to do the fights in order to get to the thing you want. There's your reward.
(Also you get coins)

@Not_Soos Still, I think you should play the games instead of watching them on youtube. I tell you it changes the experience A LOT XD. With these games and with any other.
However, if you refuses to think they are good games, of course they'll never be (for you). So maybe it's a bit pointless...

PS: About the humour, well, it's a subjective topic, but I laughed much more with these games than with PM64 and SPM. TTYD is still the best in that regard, though. A brilliant game in every way.

@beuiz For real? I only went there once to do the speed ring challenge thingy and never bothered with anything else lmao I'll check it out as soon as I get of work. Thanks for the heads up!

@Yhdekskymmenen now that you bring that up I do wish the confetti was involved in the battles in some way like the paint was in color splash. After you fix all the broken holes in the game its just pointless.

@beuiz A balanced RPG doesn't need grinding.

In this game the over simplified and meaningless battles are just a repetitive nuisance. Why include them at all..

Speaking for myself, I'm not sure this would've helped. Aside from the boss fights, which I enjoyed, I really don't like the combat in this game, and I'm glad I'm not missing much by avoiding enemies.

The new battles seemed interesting, but when I watched gameplay, saw how frequent and repetitive they seemed with no benefit other than the thousand fold arms ability for story progression, it just seemed like they dropped the ball on this one

It underwent some gameplay changes close to release because Nintendo wanted to capture the more casual games, RPG can be a scary acronym to many gamers.

Plot twist: this is a free mode coming in an update akin to how upcoming content in New Horizons was found in the files for the base game.

It's nice to dream sometimes

@mariomaster96 The first two Paper Mario games did just that. It doesn't take long for enemies to start giving less experience, and that's pretty much the game saying to the player that you don't need to fight as much. Even if a game has a great battle system, it can get stale if it forces you to grind by battling the same enemies over and over, and the first two games did a very good job at making combat fun, essential for progression, and making sure it didn't overstay its welcome.

Haven't played Origami King, or other PM besides the original (though I know I should!) but the thing about EXP is that even in the original PM, it was limited to only HP, FP and BP upgrades.
Mario's other stats, like his attack and defense, are not upgraded by levels. (the one thing I didn't like compared to Super Mario RPG when I played it back in the day, when those were the only two Mario RPGs in existence)
So I can see how they could make a system where those factors are upgraded by story. I have watched a playthrough of OK, so I know HP was raised through game progression (like finding Toads or something else?), don't recall if there was an FP equivalent (oh yeah, attack items all had limited use and you had to keep replenishing them, yes?).

@HorseRenoir Not surprising Paper Mario did its Star Points system. The PM franchise is made by Intelligent Systems, whose earliest games were Famicom/Advance Wars and Fire Emblem, the latter did EXP scaling a decade before PM, and emerging clone games immediately established it as a sub-genre standard mechanic.

We probably need Nintendo's innovation (breaking stuff) to get out of the rut we have with most RPGs where we've settled into the idea that the only way to progress a character is exp. We've kind of moved beyond attribute state points in some RPGs but we're fixated on exp as the only solution to make an RPG an RPG, and it takes a "break some eggs" innovator like Nintendo to demonstrate that there are alternatives to RPG character progression than racking up exp and grinding.

They sort of did that with BotW, but it was only partially, and Zelda's not really an RPG at all (short of Zelda 2, which is........and has exp.)

But at the same time the thing Intelligent seems to miss is that the battles do need to have a PURPOSE other than distraction. in a 2D or 3d Mario game, the enemies are obstacles to avoid, or defeat to remove the obstacle for physical progression. In old Mario RPG games and M&L exp was character progression, so fighting had a purpose to gain exp. The rut Intelligent is in is they want to find a way to move on from exp and innovate, but they forgot that without a connection to character progression, battles don't actually have a purpose in these games. They are a distraction, and almost a punishment for failing to avoid enemies by having to play a battle minigame that doesn't really do anything in the game.

That's what they need to fix. Make the battles have a purpose that makes you want to play them. If not character progression, maybe world progression. Something that makes them something other than a time suck minigame within the otherwise big adventure.

I feel having EXP or anything that requires or entices any grinding at all would be a step backwards in the series, and I'm glad they moved past it, hopefully permanently. All it does is put a halt in the adventure.

@NEStalgia Very well put, I 100% agree. I specially like what you said about enemies being obstacles in normal Mario games, I do think they are still obstacles in the Paper series, but you are totally right in that they're not exactly obstacles that prevent physical progression, they just feel like a penalty, and that is the thing that I think would need to be improved, if anything.

@Not_Soos I think you have some good points that I wanted to address:

> I've watched an entire playthrough of both Color Splash and Origami King, but they just don't do it for me.

I've done this as well for games like Death Stranding which I wanted to "experience" but had zero intention of actually playing, and in the case of PM I think some of the humor can get lost unless you are actually playing it. For instance in Color Splash when you try to paint the ocean and Heuy says something like "You're trying to paint the entire ocean? How are you even alive?", that to me was hilarious and was something that I could have completely missed had I not decided to do that, and it's more funny because I made the choice to do it.

> the lack of original characters just makes it impossible for me to get invested in the world

If you're talking about companions, for me it's kinda the opposite. I found it much more relatable to have a single companion in Color Splash with Heuy that's always with me sharing the adventure and have the story tailored to the one companion, than something like PM64 where I felt there were too many companions where none really mattered overall, and most of them I didn't even use unless a specific puzzle required them.

I feel like people really haven't grasped what grinding is if they are calling paper mario grindy. Difference between paper mario and say....final fantasy is the max number of exp is always 100, ALWAYS. And Enemies scale their exp as you level up and progress story.

If your in chapter 8, those 3 snow goombas might give you 15 exp total. But three chapter 1 goombas will probably net you 3 total. It's literally THE most anti grindy RPG, ironically to the point where if you decide to grind, if you end up with 100 star points when you already maxed out HP, FP AND BP, you'll soft lock the game
Thankfully that bug was fixed in TTYD.

Now, I know that I listed a game breaking bug, but what game doesn't have bugs? I am certain that a fair few people pointed out some that happened in TOK.

My point is battles need a purpose whether it's character progression via exp or in TOK's case, cut the amount of coins and confetti in the overworld to say a quarter, and you would have a reason to battle as you wouldn't be quite so loaded with coins to buy those metal boots or confetti to fill that hole for you to progress.

@nab1

I'm not just talking about partners, no, although from a gameplay perspective I think they add a lot, as opposed to characters like Bobby that are completely AI controlled and have a good chance of missing their attacks. I actually meant in the more general sense, like bosses and NPC's. Characters with unique designs and names, like Francis the nerdy chameleon or the mafia boss Don Pianta or Rawk Hawk the pro-wrestling chicken. Stuff you wouldn't ordinarily see in the Mario universe.

Or, even if it's a species that already exists, a character that is completely distinct like Kammy Koopa or (because I do still like the partners) Goombella. Getting rid of unique boss designs in favor of common office supplies just felt like a huge slap in the face to the fans who wanted more.

Even during Bobby's pivotal moment, I just couldn't feel anything, because just a moment before that he was talking about his best friend who looked just like him and shared the same name. That sort of thing just makes it impossible for me to get immersed in the world and feel anything for these characters, because in essence it's like they're all clones of one-another.

I'll admit that while watching the guy play Origami King, the game got a couple of snickers out of me. The Color Splash example you bring up sounds pretty funny, and I'm sure it hits differently when you're the one playing. But I thought the writing in Thousand-year Door was consistently great, and I wanted to talk to every last NPC to see what they had to say. It was either constantly hilarious, or I was deeply invested in the mystery or piecing together new details about the world. Much of Origami Kong's writing just makes me cringe, to be honest, and I don't think the handful of good jokes pay off.

It's like they're throwing jokes at a dart board to see what sticks, and while they might hit two or three bulls-eyes, another couple hundred darts just landed in the middle of the floor for me. I can't think of many instances in Thousand-Year Door where the darts completely missed the board, so to speak. And I don't think it's a problem with Nintendo Treehouse's localization or anything, I think the lack of original characters I mentioned just severely limits how much the translators have to work with.

Like I've been saying to everyone when I make these comments, though, your opinions are 100% valid, and I mean absolutely no disrespect. You seem reasonable and understanding, but I've seen too many of these types of discussions turn ugly, so I just wanted to throw that out there just in case, haha.

It just hurts when your favorite series takes a direction that's completely different than it once was. Even if I liked the game to some extent, I'm confident it will never come close to the classics in my mind, so I would sooner not buy it and make a statement with my wallet that I want Nintendo to go back to the old way of doing things. Whether it's a company that makes games, or movies, or food, I don't think consumers should ever have to settle for less than what they're looking for, and Origami King just ain't it for me.

I think it was the right call. All EXP in Origami King would accomplish is making it so you can't 1-turn battles even when solve the puzzle and use the right weapons. It's sort of lame if you do everything right but are punished because your level isn't high enough.

It'd sort of undermine the skill aspect in favour of required levelling and turn optional battles into a required activity.

@playstation_king dude, I had WAY too many coins the entire time. Needless to say, my brain was NOT used at all

Okay... could've made it better, probably would have flubbed it one way or another.

I would’ve bought it if at least the game had the EXP system there. But for a day one purchase I want EXP, a better or classic battle system, and recipes. I miss original characters as well.

@Anti-Matter so is zelda breath of the wild not an Rpg?

Yes. Also the system wants me to think of more to say. But what more is there to say? Yes, I wanted more rpg mechanics.

I, for one, am incredibly sick of this game and these clickbait articles that ALL should have been one simple article.

I am leaning towards hating this game now overall have a very poor opinion of Paper Mario these days.

This is the best killing of beloved IP since Sonic team phoned it on for each of them games following the first few.

Seems we are to get one of these articles daily and fight until one of us emerges as king of our floating hell.

Grinding would have been really annoying with the puzzle-based battle system.

The current system rewards you for avoiding battles or taking out weak enemies by saving you time, but there's just too much to spend coins on if you are always avoiding battles. So if you want all the collectibles, you're probably going to have to do the battles over and over again (or get really good at Twilight Princess Zora's River knock-off from Hell).

I loved Rpgs! even though I hear people mention the fact the story is decent... you just can't have an Rpg game without leveling and stats 🤬