The Paper Mario series has seen more ups and downs over the years than the lid of Picasso’s pencil case, with Nintendo and developer Intelligent Systems trying their best to nail the formula again. A large number of Paper Mario fans believe GameCube title Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door is the best game in the series, and have been praying that Paper Mario: The Origami King would finally be the game to match (or even surpass its quality).
We’ll cut to the chase right away. It isn’t. That doesn’t mean it isn’t still an entertaining adventure in its own right, though. Players will just need to reign in their expectations a little and enjoy it for what it is – a funny romp through a series of brilliantly designed set-pieces – rather than the new RPG experience they may have in mind when thinking of The Thousand-Year Door.
As ever, there's a fairly unique plot to kick things off. Mario and Luigi have been invited to an Origami Festival by Princess Peach, but when they turn up they discover that the place is empty. Let's face it, a paper-folding event is no E3 so there was probably always going to be a low turnout anyway, but this isn't just quiet: there isn't a soul to be found.
It soon emerges that Peach's Castle has fallen under the control of King Olly, a little regal origami chap who's hell-bent on folding everyone. Indeed, by the time you get there a bunch of characters have already been captured and given the folding treatment, including some Toads, a load of Bowser's minions and even Peach herself.
Not content with merely creating his own army of mind-controlled origami freaks, Olly then summons five huge coloured paper streamers and wraps them around Peach's Castle, lifting it high into the air. It's up to Mario (who's left behind on the ground) to figure out how to remove those streamers and get back inside the castle to give this crease-loving crackpot a boot right between the folds.
Accompanying you for most of your quest is Olivia, a little origami princess who happens to be King Olly’s sister. She’s mortified at what her brother has done and is certain she’ll be able to talk him out of it once she gets to him, so she joins forces with Mario and they both head out together. The Paper Mario series is no stranger to companion characters, and since they’re with you all the time in a predominantly plot-based game their personalities are generally a key factor in making or breaking the experience.
Thankfully, Olivia is one of the series’ better companions; she’s an absolute delight to have around and her cheery, optimistic tone is a constant source of joy. Crucially, her conversations never outstay their welcome and she rarely gets in the way of the action. There’s nothing worse than a companion who won’t shut up and this isn’t really the case here. Outside of cut-scenes she’s usually fairly quiet – only throwing in the odd humorous comment every now and then – and she’ll only ever jump in with advice if you decide you’re stuck and summon her with the X button.
Olivia is far from the only entertaining character in the game, practically everyone you encounter on your travels is comical in some respect. A good example of this is the hundreds of hidden Toads who are dotted around the world. Some of them have been turned into origami and have to be bashed with your hammer to flatten them out again, whereas others are simply hiding (or stuck) in various nooks and crannies and have to be freed. Regardless of the situation, almost all of them will reward you with a funny one-liner that’ll usually get a chuckle out of you.
Naturally, other characters – such as bosses or those involved in side-quests – have personalities that are a little more fleshed out. From the old tree you encounter near the start of the game who eventually ends up kicking off a large dance routine (don’t ask) to the hilarious trio of minions you encounter later who are trying to have a canned food party, the level of care and attention that’s clearly gone into making each of these secondary and tertiary characters appealing in their own right has to be admired.
The same can be said for the world you’ll be exploring this time around. Each of the distinct regions you encounter is brimming with personality and some areas in particular are visually striking, from the autumn-themed second world to the little Vegas-style town hidden deep within a desert (which comes with some truly catchy music, incidentally). To give even more examples would be spoiling things, but rest assured that while there are one or two fairly uninspired sections – the underground mine section is mercifully brief – for the most part you’ll get a kick out of the weird and wonderful locations in this one.
Don’t be under the illusion that this is a truly open-world game, though. While early magazine previews seemed to give the impression that we were going to get some sort of Breath of the Wild-style open environment, that isn’t really the case; the game is clearly divided into separate, distinct areas and you make your way through each one in a linear fashion. They’re all linked together, and theoretically you could start at the opening Toad Town hub and walk through each of the areas in sequence, so it’s an open world in that sense of the word. In practice, though, you’ll work through each area in a standard linear way and will only return to pick up any collectibles you missed.
These collectibles come in three main flavours: hidden Toads, Not-Bottomless Holes and trophies. The Toads are mostly there for comic relief, though occasionally one will raise your maximum HP. The holes are liberally scattered around the world and can be filled by chucking confetti at them, and you can collect confetti in a number of ways, including hitting trees or defeating enemies. While a handful of these holes need to be filled to solve puzzles, for the most part they just reward you with coins, which is a bit underwhelming. Finally, the trophies are generally found in treasure chests and can be viewed later in the game’s museum. You’re informed when you’ve got all the Toads, holes and trophies in an area so there’s an incentive to come back and try to complete the game 100%.
There’s less of an incentive to engage in battles, which will undoubtedly prove to be the most divisive part of the game when it launches. There will be some who think it’s a breath of fresh air and others who feel it’s an unnecessary gimmick. We fall into the latter category. Rather than standard turn-based fights, the battleground takes place on a giant turntable split into four separate rings. Enemies are scattered onto the turntable and you can then arrange their position by rotating and sliding the rings. You’re given a strictly limited number of moves, and you have to use these moves to arrange the enemies so that every one of them is either in a straight line (where you can jump on them with your Boots) or a 2x2 square (where you can hit them all with your Hammer).
If you successfully manage to do this, you’ll get an attack boost and in most situations will be able to take everyone out in one hit. If you can’t arrange them perfectly – or if the strict time limit runs out while you’re trying to do it – you won’t get your attack boost and will almost certainly not be able to finish them off in that turn, meaning you’ll have to take some damage before you get to try to rearrange them again. The result is a system that isn’t really a traditional turn-based battle at all, instead what you have here is basically a puzzle game that essentially boils down to a single premise: solve the ring puzzle in the time given and you’ll win; fail and you’ll take damage.
The problem with this system is that the ‘puzzles’ generally tend to fall into two different categories: painfully easy ones that provide no real challenge, and annoyingly elaborate ones that even Mensa members would struggle to figure out in the time provided (or even longer, if you decide to spend coins to boost the timer). The result is that you’re never really satisfied with any of the battles, they’re either a waste of time if they’re too easy, or a frustrating exercise in damage control if they’re too hard.
Shortly into the game you unlock the option to activate an assist for battles. This makes red rings appear which show you where each enemy should end up if you solve the puzzle correctly. It doesn’t solve the puzzle for you – you still need to actually figure out how to shuffle everyone around and that’s still a massive headache during more complex fights – but it does lead to fewer frustrating moments where you feel there’s no possible way you could have figured out the solution in time. There’s no shame in turning on this assist either, you aren’t punished for it and, frankly, because it still provides a challenge it should have been the standard set-up in the first place.
Occasionally you’ll encounter other annoyances that result from this battle system. The camera can’t be rotated, meaning some enemies will be standing with their back to you. During the game’s middle chapters you regularly face up against Shy Guys and Snifits (the ones who look like Shy Guys but have little cannons for noses), and you’ll often encounter both at the same time during battles. Most puzzles are solved by grouping the same types of enemy together, but since Shy Guys and Snifits are practically identical from behind you’re at a big disadvantage when you can’t tell which red hooded bad guy you’re looking at.
More frustrating is the inclusion of weapon degradation. Your standard Boots and Hammer are unbreakable and can be used forever, but along the way you'll collect a bunch of different variations on each which are needed to ensure you can still defeat enemies with a single hit, or even hurt them at all (you can't jump on a row of spiked enemies without Iron Boots on, for example). The problem is, these weapons wear down and are eventually destroyed, meaning you need to keep finding new ones or returning to the shop in the Toad Town hub and buying more. We don't know what it is with Nintendo and breakable items these days, but if you want to call this game the Breath of the Wild of the Paper Mario series, that's your justification right there.
What makes the battles even less appealing is there’s no real incentive to engage in any of them. There’s no experience system in this game, so there’s nothing to grind for. Winning a fight gives you some coins and confetti, and since coins are mostly spent on battle items anyway and confetti literally grows on trees there’s really no need to fight most of the time. The puzzles make the process so lengthy and convoluted that you’ll find yourself trying to actively avoid any enemy you see. Besides – and this is us letting you in on a little secret – there’s one island you encounter in the game’s second half where you take part in a seven-wave arena fight and are rewarded with an absolute ton of coins, more than enough to ensure you never worry about having enough coins again.
It’s not all bad news, boss fights turn the system on its head and put the boss in the middle of the turntable with you on the outside of it. Various arrows, attack panels and hazards are placed on the turntable and you have to rotate it to plan out a route for Mario to follow in order to attack the boss. These sections are far more entertaining than the standard battles, you’ve actually got a chance to figure out a strategy for these ones, the timer is much more lenient and there’s a wider variety of variables that make things interesting. Normal battles are worth avoiding, but boss battles are worth enjoying.
Don’t let our criticism of the combat put you off checking out The Origami King. Yes, it’s fair to say that battling is a sizeable portion of the game and while you can avoid many of the enemies you’re still going to find yourself in plenty of fights throughout, and if you don’t get along with the mechanics (like we didn’t) that’s going to be a bit of a slog. The important thing to note, though, is that everything else that surrounds these battles is an absolute delight.
The Paper Mario games are always light-hearted adventures with plenty of jokes and clever paper-based set-pieces but The Origami King is easily one of the funniest and smartest entries in the series. If the thought of the battles puts you off buying it you’re also going to miss out on some of the most entertaining moments we’ve seen in a game this generation. There are song and dance numbers, novelty theme parks, a genuinely fantastic stage show section and even the occasional sad or poignant moment to stop you in your tracks and make you feel the feels, as we’re reliably informed the kids say these days.
Conclusion
Paper Mario: The Origami King tries to do something different with its combat system and, to be honest, we aren't feeling it. That doesn't mean the rest of the game isn't thoroughly entertaining, however, and while the puzzle-based battles aren't quite what a new Paper Mario game needed, they aren't so awful that everything else shouldn't be experienced as a result. It still isn't the new Thousand-Year Door fans will have been hoping for, but it's still one of the funniest games in the series and it's got a truly likeable companion character, and while the combat is far from ideal the fact that we still thoroughly recommend the game regardless speaks volumes about every other aspect of it.
Comments 425
Sounds good to me.. I don't like RPG elements all that much... So this will be my first Paper Mario
Wake me up when there's a traditional Mario RPG.
It occurs to me Paper Mario is the reverse of Miyamoto’s SMB rule of lots of gameplay, not much story.
Still going to buy it however.
Pass. I wanted a Mario RPG. That's not what this is.
Hoping the Thousand Year Door comes out in HD with all those rumored remasters.
This is pretty much how I expected the game to turn out. Don't come in assuming it'll be like the first two games and you'll probably have a better time.
Edit: Also, this game must be great everywhere but combat, because every review seems to be cold on that aspect. They still give it a high rating, though.
I admit, I'm still on the fence because of combat and lack of EXP...
But battling is like half the game, shouldn't it get a 5/10??😝
Another terrible review from Nintendolife.
1. Nintendo makes the same game.
Fans: we want something new!
2. Nintendo makes something new:
Fans: we want the same game!!
repeat.
Thanks for the early comments guys, now please read the thing There's 2000 words in there, fill your boots ❤
Really wanted this to be great, but for me the battle system kills it. I was hoping for something like TTYD
Nintendolife (who've actually played the game): We score it 8 out of 10.
Comment section bedwetters (who haven't touched it all): You're wrong!
Seen it all before. Never let me down gamers.
What a crappy year 2020 is for Nintendo
Man I wish there was a demo. Because the pros seem to be story-related and the cons seem to lean towards the actual gameplay. I'm more gameplay-oriented than I used to be soooo maybe this is a wait-for-sale?
I honestly don’t understand why this game gets hate. Is it different? Yes. Is it as good as its predecessors? In no way. But Nintendo still made a beautiful, original and treasured video game that largely reminiscences of the previous ones. I hope everyone enjoys this game as much as I do.
@Hobbesyall 2020 has been a crappy year for everybody...
@sanderev So it's a terrible review because some fans are stupid? You also know it's possible for fans to want something new, then for said new thing to suck, right?
@Cyrax77 This is my first RPG too!
Awesome review! Looking forward to playing it on Friday!
@WiltonRoots Read all the comments before yours, I don't see any that says the review is "wrong"
Oh, so it's like Color Splash then.
Nintendo i dont wanna buy this game right now. Could you please give me a direct? Because saturday is my birthday and i want to buy a game for myself.
@roadrunner343 true, but what I've seen from it it doesn't suck. According to to the review it sucks because there is no exp. So that's why this review is a 0/10 for the review. The game itself arrives this friday, so by then I'll give it my own opinion.
All I've seen is "It's not TTYD so it's bad!!!", and that's just not fair to the developers or Nintendo.
@JokerCK I’m sure Nintendo can manage to make a direct just in time for your birthday 😂
@sanderev we've had persona 5 royal and ffvii remake on PS4 this year though, so not so bad for PS4 owners xD
For those wanting an RPG paper Mario get Bug Fables. (Cheaper and from what I've gathered really good) I've never played Paper Mario (getting this game) and I knew fully well this wasn't going to be TYD at all.
@Fulgor_Astral We've also had Animal Crossing, so it's not really all that bad.
Also Persona 5, FF7R aren't sony, but Atlus and Square Enix. Sony's biggest title of the year (The last of us Part 2) is utter trash.
@roadrunner343 that’s what I’m saying! If they released something like TTYD fans would say it was to similar to that game. Just enjoy that Nintendo made Paper Mario for the switch people, don’t be greedy 😔
@Brydontk They're coming...watch. I was pre-empting them.
An 8/10, just a reminder that this website also gave that very same score to...Sticker Star
While I grew up on the original and TTYD, I had a great time with Color Splash so I'm really looking forward to this, even if I do wish theyd return to the style of the first two games.
So it'll probably be about on par with Color Splash for me unless I personally take to the battle system? I'll be getting it, then, because I liked basically every other aspect of Color Splash and Origami King seems to improve on a lot of that.
TL:DR
If you want your Paper Mario game to be for the fun battle systems of TTYD, leave this one be.
If you want your Paper Mario game to have the hilarious writing of TTYD, get it.
@sanderev Just in case, I'm not implying it's a bad game either. I'll reserve judgement until I play it. Just meant I thought there was some flawed logic in your first response. Personally, from what I've seen, it appears to be a good game, just not great. The last treehouse soured me a bit, but I'll definitely still be giving it a shot, especially given the reviews I've seen so far have been mostly positive.
@Josh2396 Just a reminder that the site is made up of different reviewers, so the score one game got isn't necessarily a reflection on another game's score unless both were reviewed by the same person!
@SMBSS An eternal sleep awaits you. =P
Yeah, this review does not encourage me to buy this game. I enjoyed Sticker Star at the time because it was new, but I have never gone back for a repeat playthrough, and I am still trying to slog through Colour Splash on occasion, but ultimately I am finding it boring. The toads in both of these games feel like they are trying to be funny, but (and maybe this is just my sense of humour), I find all the lines one-note and bland. I never found the gags where a toad gets trapped underneath a water fountain or anything funny either; it is not like finding a goofy friend in an unfortunate situation, I have no connection to the toads. They are too generic.
Hearing that this has the exact same problem of battles being pointless, and I am finding 100 toads which are again generic and no real reward for using confetti on holes in the landscapes... I am not sure where the fun is to be had in this game?
I might buy eventually, but not until I beat Colour Splash first, and not until the game is extremely cheap.
It´s funny to see many reviews saying the battle system is great, so much fun, and others saying the opposite. Uhmm... I guess we have to try it a decide for ourselves.
The rest of the game looks incredible, so day one for me!
By the way, Paper Mario is NOT AN RPG ANYMORE, as Nintendo made clear. I think we are all aware of that already, so one of the cons is pointless and unfair... It´s good that you say it in the review, to made it even more clear, but criticising that part of the game is so ridiculous they should change it, imo.
"Lack of EXP system will disappoint those hoping for an RPG"
wtf is this? how the hell you can blame the game for this? the game never claimed it was an RPG
No thanks, seems the devs were confused about what genre they wanted to create. You can't create a game with some RPG elements but without the fundemental ones. If you can battle randomly in this but not using any system to justify it, e.g. EXP system. Also, sick and tired of how games implement these currencies in their games but the currencies are rendered meaningless because of usage and gaining high amounts too early.
Don't get me wrong, it's okay if they didn't want it to be a RPG and it's not what they aimed for. However, when that is the case, you can't implement functions and systems that support that genre and then leaving out the ones that is a complete necessity to justify them, you will just be left with functions and systems that don't really make sense and that drags the entertainment quality/ gameplay value down drastically.
@Jbuggydroid Before reading this review I would say this as a joke but now I am actually considering buying Bug Fables instead, or just replaying TTYD. This game was almost getting me to buy a Switch with it bundled but I can still wait at this point. Remakes of older 3D Marios might get me to buy one though.
Jesus christ... What a waste. If Nintendo refuses to make this series the way that fans want then they should just let it die. Sticker star was complete ass and Colour Splash was just pointless to play.
Honestly, these reviews have kinda killed my hype. The battles being a slog is a major con for me. I thought maybe I'd get by on the exploration, but it sounds like there's almost no incentive to do that either. I love digging into the scenery and just appreciating it for what it is, but that gets old when there's nothing substantial to work towards. Luigi's Mansion 3 and Mario Maker 2 had these same problems! What is up with that?
I'll probably pick it up eventually, but not day 1
The problem I have is, whilst enjoyable in itself, the pointlessness of battling is why I got bored and didn't finish Colour Splash. It's what the community has been calling out for for years and it seems Nintendo still haven't heard.
This may be the last Paper Mario game I buy. If I get bored like last time I can just eBay it.
Pokemon has fooled me once too many and it now seems like Paper Mario will too
I am not getting this anytime soon. Not bc it’s a bad game by any means, but I have three Paper Mario games on 3ds and a fourth on WiiU. I have plenty of things to play, but as far as Nintendo, this has been so disappointing.
@Bomberman64 from what I gather if you love TYD then get Bug Fables. Arlo (YouTube) gave it a glowing review and basically said that an indie dev did what Nintendo won't do.
I'll get it anyway. I'm always a sucker for anything Mario related. Kinda wished they returned back to what made the series special, though.
@Spoony_Tech Apparently being funny is enough to make a GAME get a GREAT score even when the GAMEPLAY isn't GREAT.
@MrMetroid Because Nintendo should only listen to the very loud minority?
It's times like these that I'm happy emulation exists. I can finally play 1000 Year Old Door, Superstar Saga and the fan hack of Final Fantasy I with Mario characters...and remember a time when this series was worth looking forward to
one of these days they'll get the battle system right. part of me is glad theyre still not giving up in the series but please make battles worthwhile again
This game is not an RPG. It's an adventure game with instanced battles. It has humor, puzzles, collectibles, etc.
If you want an RPG, play the Mario & Luigi games. Those are RPGs.
I actually really liked both Sticker Star and Color Splash, the battle systems and the lack of incentive to actually engage in battles were the biggest, and almost only negatives in those games in my opinion. I just don't understand why they have to do the exact same mistake for the third time.
@sanderev Look at 2017. Fans weren't complaining about those games as described and some were vastly different (Zelda) some were the same (Splatoon 2) and some were different that what came before but not vastly different (Odyssey). There's more examples from that year. Almost seems like something has changed since then?
@KoopaTheQuick You got a source for that statement? I don't doubt it. But he wasn't a producer or supervisor or anything on this one. Just got a thanks.
@Dang69 People complained about Splatoon 2 being "Splatoon 1.5", people complained about weapons breaking in Breath of the Wild or the "lack" of music. People complained about Odyssey for it not being Super Mario Galaxy 3.
The game never claimed to be a RPG so why al the hate?
There are plenty of rpgs on the switch, this is a fun adventure game, to give you some joy.
Im glad Nintendo keeps evolving there series that gives us something new to get back too!
I saw over 2 hour's of live gameplay footage over the last couple of days and it just isn't for me... The graphics are charming, it's a good looking game, but the gameplay seemed tedious...
The game for me would be a real slog to get through, I don't want to pay for that privilege.... I saw someone stuck on a battle for 15 minutes, gameplay just looked irritating, no fun...
I still need to finish Color Splash, I may go back to complete that instead to satisfy my Paper Mario itch...
But each to their own...
So the battle system isn't all that fun and sounds like it's tedious. Yeah, that was my main criticism with Color Splash, so I'll give this one a pass.
I don't care if they call this an RPG or not, but if you're going to have turn-based battles that take up a lot of time, I do expect them to be fun and rewarding.
@sanderev i think LoU2 has been divisive (my brother loved and plat it) but I dont think it was utter trash... this on the other hand haha...
But I was mentioning good RPGs on other consoles and switch has has its own share of good rpgs this year (Trials of Mana being one).
Dang....was really hoping for an RPG. 😞
Maybe next time.
@scully1888 Yes I do know that, however you all represent the same website. And a lot of reviews from this site fall into a very ''interesting'' pattern: it is very remarkable how a lot of ''controversial games'' get 8/10s from this website: Paper Mario Sticker Star/the Origami King, Star Fox 0, Pokémon Sword and Shield, the SuperStar Saga remake, the Wonderul 101, Federation Force, the list goes on. It seems like more than a strange coincidence how almost no ''controversial (nintendo) game'' gets a lower score than an 8 on this website. Except for the obvious bad games like Amiibo Festival.
That aside,I just can not understand how a game can score an 8/10 when even the reviewer admits that a lot of the time is spend on battles that are just not fun. Even when the rest of the game is fun, it just seems a bit too high, but that's just my opinion.
The battles being a slog is very disappointing but I guess I knew that would be the case from the reveal. Puzzle battles should be used sparingly (if at all).
Nintendo Life: 'Bad Gameplay isn't enough to ruin this game'. LOL
Easy pass from me.
I'd be down if this game committed more to that new battle system...but the game feels like it wants to be an RPG, wants to be a tactics-like puzzle "fighter", wants to be just an adventure game...doesn't commit. I find the new battle system really compelling, love the idea, love tactic style RPGs asking me to consider placement when playing. Here...I think it'd almost be better if regular enemy encounters you squashed with a hammer, but scripted battles took place on a mini map, like Fire Emblem and had this ring idea more integrated. Maybe it isn't even always a ring. But this is typical Nintendo lately. Amazing ideas that are so limply executed the games get old fast.
I'll start by saying I have no interest in playing paper Mario. I haven't played any since they first came out.
BUTTTTTT... I don't understand Nintendo fans hating Sony's games for being all story, good graphics, but poor gameplay. However the same people loving games like this for their story, art style despite the poor gameplay.
@Hobbesyall isn't it a crappy year for everyone ¯(ツ)/¯
I was torn on this game, but now any shred of hope I had has gone. Seems like a cut and paste of Color Splash tbh. The series has largely remained stationary since Sticker Star’s paper-thin attempts at reinventing the battle system. RIP Paper Mario.
———————
...Ehem...
My actual thoughts are somewhat less melodramatic, but I couldn’t fit as many puns in that way. It certainly seems to share the rather tragic predicament of being a ‘good game built around an unsatisfying and someone pointless core mechanic’ with Color Splash. I hope a demo gets released at some point as I’d like to see how I actually find the battle system personally.
@sixrings Sony games usually only have nice graphics. Gameplay and story are almost always bad or terrible.
I was on the fence on this one. Going to wait for a demo or at least an eshop sale
"These collectibles come in three main flavours: hidden Toads"
"There's less of an incentive to engage in combat"
Into the dumpster. Here, let me turn it into an origami basketball --- CRUMPLE
One of these days, they will understand that players aren't satisfied with the battle systems they're making and want a return to the system featured in the first two games.
That's exactly why Bug Fables exists.
@sanderev Some people complained about weapon breaking. Some people thought parts of Mario O. were a bit easy. I think most people were down with Splatoon 2 being a 1.5 so the experience could continue fromt he WiiU so soon, but the critical voices were there not super loud on those games. Doesn't even compare to this game or all the discourse (to a lesser extent than PM) around people playing in late game in AC NH.
I've had the game preordered since it was announced but seriously considering cancelling now. The bad seems like it probably outweighs the good.
@Josh2396 I think you're reading far too much into this. I review games purely based on how much fun I had playing them: I don't take its status into account and I don't take any other game's score into account. I had fun playing this one despite the battle system, so I'd still recommend it, hence the score.
@DenDen i dont undestand this logic. If Nintendo suddenly tells it's customers: "hey guys, this new game in the splatoon franchise will be a different genre' we call it 'splat paint on everything", but it has most or all the qualities of a competitive shooter!" Would you buy their reasoning for claiming it's another genre?
It has turn based battles and progression in the story has an rpg format, and it's very name is from a franchise that was once beloved by rpg gamers, so why keep using the paper style at all when it's clearly not the same thing? Dont try to defend what cannot be defended.
@RupeeClock I think this battle system could have been dope, but they didn't commit to it. The boss battles show just how much more could have been done with this. They were nervous to abandon all RPG tropes to something more tactics based (which the ring system hints at). They also get nervous putting challenge in any of their games lately, so they backed off on making either the puzzle elements more diverse, or the RPG elements were challenging (grinding, diverse array of skills and partners). This is Nintendo trying to make it so much for everyone that it's bland, while at the same time trying to do something sort of new.
Tbh, reading the review it doesn't feel like an 8 at all
It just looks all a bit crap to be honest. Hard pass.
@sanderev Bold claim. I don't own a PS4 (PC/Switch take all my free time) but I think most people would agree that Sony's exclusives have been great this generation. God of War, Spiderman, Horizon: Zero Dawn, The Last of Us P1/P2, Bloodborne, Ghosts of Tsushima, Final Fantasy 7, Uncharted 4, etc... They certainly aren't known for their "Terrible" gameplay.
That battle system is really not for me. Still think the world looks cool. And the Origami concept also. So I still want to check it out.
I'll move it to the GameFly list. I'll play it whenever they ship it.
When taking into account review scores on this site, I usually deduct a full point and that's closer to where it probably actually should be.
Like the recent Yoshi games the backgrounds are designed in the same style/material as Yoshi.
Because Mario is Paper it does not follow that the whole look has to be paper. The idea is a 2d Mario in a 3d world.
Because Nintendo's game output is limited and this is the only summer release so far this year, and it only scores an 8 and is £50, I think a lot of pre orders will be cancelled in favour of less expensive third party games.
@sanderev well I would say most last of supporters suggest I play it primarily for its story.
Seems pretty good but still a bit of a mixed bag and not the RPG fans have been wanting for over 15 years now. I’ll be skipping this one for the time being, maybe once time goes on and it gets cheaper I’ll take a dip then. Good review, though.
@Collette I admire the patience of anyone who waits for a sale on a first party Nintendo game!
I just got a used copy of Color Splash so I'll be playing that instead. If I like it enough, I'll get this. If not, skip!
@Dromosus I've been waiting on a Fire Emblem Three Houses sale for over a year. At this point I don't think it'll ever happen.
@MikeHiscoe I tend to agree with you, especially because value for money is not scored.
@KoopaTheQuick his role is different now, and I think Furakawa has tried to reorg things a bit so it isn't a few people in the company pulling that kind of behavior. Remember that quote from him when he became president? If you don't I'll try to find it. However, I think its possible they still develop by that comment from the oh great on high Miyamoto-sama.
I don’t want to avoid battles in a game. They should be entertaining and rewarding, not punishing and time consuming. Why would I want to play a game where I am trying to avoid things because they are annoying?
It is safe to say that the direction this series has gone in is not for me. The paper gimmick was never the whole story in the first two games. It was more complimentary. Ah well. What’s this bug game I’ve been hearing about? Haha.
@scully1888 I suppose Nintendo Life has always got that old school mag feel to it. I get that each review is that individual's opinion at the end of the day, but some sites and mags have their reviews as a general consensus for the publication as a whole. Now, it's up to the individual reader to have to some cop on and figure it out so I don't think it's fair at all to compare scores, I'm with you on that. But also, on the flip side, the use of "we" throughout can be a bit confusing if individuality is the angle you guys are coming from. Did one person play it, write the review and then share thoughts with the rest of the staff? I assume it needs approval so I'd imagine that's the case. But if others didn't have much input why not just say "I" for clarity's sake? Keep up the great work!
WALL OF TEXT COMPLETE
@BlackenedHalo Not to mention that experience points don’t make a game an RPG.
@Maxz Made me laugh in the midst of all this despair!
@Apportal hahaha wow... nintendo defense force at it's worst... how should we grateful for a subpar product THAT IS NOT FREE and it's not what the majority wanted. It's not a present!
Not a fair comparison, and might sound cruel, but it's like if you are advising someone not to leave an abusive relationship because god put him/her in your way for a reason. Utterly ridiculous that you are suggesting we should buy a product that is clearly bad and put a happy face. Discussion with people like you is impossible when you take that stance
With all those downers it already feels like a 6.
@SMBSS Alphadream (devs of Mario & Luigi games) went bankrupt last October. So I'm afraid it will be a long sleep for you.
If it's a marginal improvement then are they eventually going to release colour splash. While at it release wooly world.
Outside of Mario Kart, how many Mario spin-offs have had a good entry recently?
@sanderev PS is soaring with great releases, Nintendo not so much, Xbox yikessss xD
I will pass until I can buy it used and even then maybe not. I really don’t wanna deal with BOTW type breakable items they’re frustrating and the battle system sounds frustrating and unrewarding.
@Fulgor_Astral okay? I was just stating my opinion I didn’t mean to force anyone to play it. I’m sorry 😞
@nintendope64 Different publications just have a different 'house style': I've written for plenty over the years that use 'we' and plenty others that use 'I'. There's really no difference when it comes to how reviews are handled: it would be a bit rich of us to say to people "hey, you haven't played the game so how do you know" if at the same time we were agreeing the score as a committee based on one review code. I can promise you that the process went like this: I was asked to review it, I got the game, I played the game, I wrote the review, I gave it a score, the text was proof-read by a second person (for spelling, grammar etc) and it was published. Nintendo Life asks folk like me to review games because they trust our judgement: I wouldn't write for a publication that tried to change my scores to suit an overall message.
@Tulio517 more than a 7 or even less... I'm trying to remember another review on this site that pretty much felt the same way... so much "this is wrong, this is bad" and it was a 9 in the end... sometimes I dont get the grading system here
Not saying I'm surprised but man am I disappointed. They should just straight up warn people it's not an rpg when the game is in development because at least then I would be able to get on board. Now I feel like I've been duped and just glad I didn't preorder it digitally...
Thousand year door is one of my favorite games of all time and the fact that they refuse to give us a real sequel to that style of gameplay is demoralizing.
@Hobbesyall Why? They have clearly stated there is more to come
@Dang69 I'm interested in this quote. I'm honestly getting tired of how Miyamoto keeps Nintendo's franchises to develop.
@Fulgor_Astral I think the people on this site are just really excited to get another full paper mario game no matter the cost to their expectations. The score seems more like a "don't give up on the series" kind of thing, because a low score would contribute to lower sales.
Oh god the battle system sounds AWFUL, ah well, still wont stop me buying it and (probably) enjoying it even with that let down
I haven't played it but the battle system and lack of true jrpg elements such as exp is not what I want to play. Call me when there is another Mario and Luigi.
@Fulgor_Astral Yeah so when you like subpar games that not the majority want on Sony's consoles you're an open minded gamer who is into niche videogames but if you like them on Nintendo systems then you are a drone into an abusive reltionship with a megacorp (who is like 100 times smaller than Sony anyway but yeah Nintendo is totally the control freak megacorp of the industry)
That anti Nintendo bias is the reason why we should boycott japanese viodeogames on Sony consoles until Sony stop with this toxic policy of sending their paid trolls that is detrimental for the variety of the industry.
This game might be the biggest insult by a major gaming company in the past decade. I literally screamed at my Nintendo Switch screen. I knew Nintendo said it wasn't going to be The Thousand Year Door 2, but the hype they created made me think they were just going to be like me that anyway. Absolutely unacceptable to do this to us. Unacceptable. Once they knew The Thousand Year Door 2 was expected, they should've cancelled this game.
Nintendo, publicly apologize and cancel Paper Mario The Origami King or you can kiss your business goodbye.
@Crockin luigi's mansion i get it, but why mario maker 2? if we're still talking about the combat..
@glaemay This isn't a niche game, it's freaking PAPER MARIO. It has been a staple first party game for years and they just keep messing with the formula and not telling us until it's out.
@ImagineerNik again, maker 2 is amazing! i havent played yet, but it seems captain toad is great also..
I have no doubts that it is a functional game. I have no doubt that it is well polished. I have no doubt that it is a rock solid game for those who want it. But I don't want it. It's as simple as that.
If I lived in a world where the N64 Paper Mario and The Thousand Year Door and even Super Paper Mario existed, maybe I'd find these "New Paper Mario" games more enjoyable and be more into them. The reality, however, is that my desires and hopes and such are all colored by that which has come before.
As time moves forward, I am in an ever-diminishing minority, and obviously these new titles make money. But that doesn't make me any more accepting of what the series has become when compared to what it used to be. And so, I will pass on this one, voting with my wallet even if it has the same effect as shouting into the wind.
Lack of EXP is a weird con. Even as a fan of many RPG games, the experience system on its own doesn't really make a game better in my opinion. You can have other ways to upgrade the character that work just as well, such as equipment, badges etc. I get that the fans of Paper Mario want it to have RPG mechanics, but I don't think a system like EXP would magically "fix" the game.
That said, I'm fine with Paper Mario turning into an Adventure game first and foremost. With some puzzle mechanics in battles, it can definitely work, even if Origami King doesn't do it perfectly.
So all the pros are story-related and all the cons are gameplay-related. I think I'll just pass on this, all the funny dialog in the world can't save a bad gameplay experience.
@scully1888 I'd probably have a lot more fun with this game and color splash if I got them for free too, but I unfortunately have to pay 60 EUR for these games and quite frankly if I can't stomach a large portion of the game, I don't think I'm getting my money's worth out of this and probably won't be enjoying the overall product all that much. It's always difficult for me to consider this, but in the end I do believe it's worth considering how the perceived value of the game stacks up to the MSRP.
However, my main problem with the review is simply in the disconnect between the actual review and the score. There is so much negative, yet the end score is an 8/10. While I can respect your stance on judging a game on its merits of the singular game in question, I think the score makes no sense seeing as the conclusion piece is incredibly apologetic. Particularly this line stands out to me: "they aren't so awful that everything else shouldn't be experienced as a result"
Based on what I'm reading, the game feels more like you considered it a 6-7/10 rather than an 8/10.
Since Nintendo Life asked you to review it for them, I do think what I'm about to say isn't really a criticism towards your review specifically, but I do wish to say it. Back in the day, people complained when things were getting low scores because NintendoLife was using the "full scale" of 1 to 10. Nowadays I think this has gone out of the window, considering the amount of apologetic-sounding 8/10s we've been getting, but it's still something to consider when looking at this site's history. I do not think an individual reviewer is fully accountable for this, since you're not the one publishing in the end, but I do wonder what's up with that.
Nintendo new president is not making wise choices with the companies flag ship titles.... if he has anything to do with that.
@westman98 Oh no! What will they do without one (1) single human being not buying their products? 😂
@scully1888 I read all 2,000 words but I am still left with many questions.
Question #1, which is ALWAYS my question #1 for $60 games - how long is it? I know you said the battles are optional but you also said the map is linear, so you should be able to give a thereabouts for people who just play thru the linear story and then add or subtract time for battles. I don't need an exact number but are we talking 3 hours, 5, 8, 12, 20?
Controls. This is a Nintendo game on Switch which is known for it's Joycon, HD rumble, Pro controller. Also a Switch Lite which doens't have most of that. So what do we need to know about the controls? What's the gimmick? There is always a gimmick, like doing that Cappy circle in Odyesey was almost impossible w/o using the Joycon. Paper Mario on Wii had that 2D-3D shift w/ the Wiimote. Is there touchscreen support at all?
How does it look? Switch does screen and TV out. Kind of need to give some info on how it looks, and plays, in handheld vs TV mode.
Difficulty. You keep talking about "taking damage' during the fights but you never really mention if we are losing a lot of battles w/ Game Over screens or we always have enough health to win every battle.
How is saving? Save anywhere, save after battles, chapters, autosaves?
So many questions.
Oh, I kind of need to know about the controls b/c I have 2 Joycons that both drift, and I am boxing up to send it for repair, but I also have a real Pro and 2 fake Pro. Basically I need to know if I can play the game w/o the Joycon and what will I miss, or should I wait for them to get from repair? So there is a basis for my anxiety, besides just so many unanswered questions in such a long review.
I mainly play these newer Paper Mario games for the atmosphere and the dialogue. So this game is right up my alley. However, I’m really bummed for my fellow, old head gamers who wanted some more RPG meat on this game. Hopefully Nintendo will bring back to life Mario and Luigi, and give us a proper RPG.
@scully1888 ah yeah, that does make sense when you talk about house style, fair point. I'm with ya though, never got the whole "this is the same site/magazine that gave insert game a 10". Ugh, the site isn't a sentient being.
@glaemay hahaha boicot? OMG!!! XD
From what I’m reading in the review, it’s sounding like a story book with some game tacked on. Never really been into Paper Mario to begin with, so I don’t feel like I’m losing out. RPG fans sure are sounding disappointed. Maybe Nintendo’s next game, Metroid Prime 4, will also be a puzzle game instead of its old genre, lol
Nah I'll pass. Sticker Star and Color Splash got favorable reviews too and those were utter garbage. Still waiting for a proper return to form with this series, or at least a new entry that brings back that old wonderful charm. This is absolutely not that.
Who would've thought a spin-off series would cause such a commotion.
@rjejr If you read other review sites, you will learn that most reviewers are finishing in around 30 hours, while skipping most of the side stuff. Difficulty is subjective, with some calling the combat brutal, and others saying it’s a cake walk. I’m sure you can google the rest.
@MsJubilee What commotion? Seems pretty tame so far, have you read any comments yet?
@ShinEon Most of the times I read a NL review of a first party game, I feel like the score is one point above of what the review text says.
I was hoping for a bigger rpg focus and the battle system doesn't sound great from what I've read here and elsewhere, given that you'll be doing that a lot and even here says its a slog I think I'll pass for now. Perhaps we'll never truly get another true rpg entry
@rex_rex not so much the combat in MM2, but how there's not much of a reward system outside of maker points and silly hats. Like why not have a system where you are constantly unlocking cool stuff like alternative sprites, level templates, effects, powerups etc. Playing unique levels is really cool, but it gets kind of old when you have no reason to do it. It's a great game, but so much potential just left on the table
@71nk0 I second this and after the Deadly Premonition review with its abysmal performance I'm even more wary
An 8 out 10 seems generous considering.
@TG16_IS_BAE "This game might be the biggest insult by a major gaming company in the past decade. I literally screamed at my screen" Comment 119. It seems you need to read around before you comment.
@ShinEon Please don't go down the "well, of course you like it, you got it for free" route. I've been doing this for a long, long time and fully appreciate the value of a game based on its price.
The simple reality is that my score is based on how much fun I had with the game. If the combat was better it would have probably been a 9. It's been a long time since I've smiled so much playing a game, and the annoying combat wasn't enough to remove that smile from my face. You can call it apologetic, but I call it realistic: the game has its negatives but the positives stuck with me a hell of a lot more, and if someone on the street asked me if I recommend it I would absolutely say yes.
I return to my original point, though: please don't imply that the circumstances in which I receive games to review in any way affect my ability to analyse them critically. That's one of the fundamental principles of this job.
@carlos82 I mean, the Destructoid review was also an 8, as it also was the Deadly Premonition 2 review, but both reviews in general were more positive than this one (and the reviewer loved the first Deadly Premonition, so it was a little biased).
But what I mean is that in that site the correlation between text and score is stronger than here.
@doctorhino or they want you to click on the Amazon affiliate link and buy the game. They get a kickback for that.
@scully1888 tbf, do most sites have more than one reviewer score a single game? In most cases, no.
7 out of 10 looks ugly but was probably more suited for this game but since it was published by Nintendo you can sneak a point by using the 'it made me smile' logic. Not everyone can relate to that. Extremely misleading.
@71nk0 yeah I get what you were meaning, I just don't see how that game gets a 7 either when the reviewers admit it barely works
Personally can't wait to play this game.
Preordered. Not just based on this review (before your heads get too big).
It just looks like all round fun. i have always been a fan of puzzle games so the battle system intrigues me. With a bit of luck I may be playing it tomorrow evening...
Really conflicted on this one as it sounds very charming, but that combat system just puts me right off. While I appreciate they've tried to do something different, slogging through puzzles with no reward just doesn't sound like fun to me.
The editor of NintendoWre posted on Era suggesting action-based combat and I'm now wondering if this might be the better road for the series to take in the future as the actiony bits seem to be better received.
It seems with Paper Mario you have to take each game as a unique thing with some roughly connected elements - otherwise you'll be disappointed by your own version of what Paper Mario was for you 'back in the day'.
I'm going to give this a go - trying to see it as it's unique (paper-folded) snowflake. And we'll just see how that turns out.
It's a shame that the battles don't have a lot of point again. The puzzle aspect of the battles does look fun to me and I wish they leaned a bit more into it, making it a story driven puzzle game. Each enemy can be a unique puzzle, defeating the enemy removes them from the map permanently, scatter a bunch of hidden enemies/puzzles throughout the world. After defeating the enemy you can replay that puzzle by going to a special house in Toad town that shows which puzzles you have found and which ones you figured out the solution to and then you could replay the ones you flopped to figure out the solution, getting rewards for solving all puzzles in an area (solving the puzzle would in this case involve lining up the enemies in the right way and defeating them without taking damage, boss puzzles could be solved in a minimum number of moves or something). I wouldn't care if the reward was as superficial as getting little stars by each puzzle or filling a trophy case or something. This setup would be enough for me to want to and enjoy fighting enemies throughout the whole game without getting fatigued with it.
@scully1888 Perhaps if you had so much fun with it, maybe write a review that tells us how much fun you had with it rather than harping on the bad points to the point where the 8/10 score makes zero sense. Practically half of the paragraphs in this review start out in a negative fashion.
There's plenty of games out there that make me smile as well, yet if I were to review them I wouldn't be able to give these games as high as an 8/10 score because the games themselves are flawed to the point where I avoid certain aspects of the designs entirely.
@sanderev i seriously hate covid virus its ruining everything this year.
Honestly this game is probably good but i won't buy it just for the reason that switch games are so expensive compared to playstation and xbox like they probably wont do nintendo selects anymore and it sucks cause i really want to play these game but i am 13 and i get barely get any games a year so sorry paper mario i am probably going to play this game in a decade or so
Can’t wait. I know it’ll be a fun adventure.
I checked metacritic earlier on and this game was on a 8.0 out of 10. So this review is fair not overscored cause its a Nintendo game, I will be getting this because A My tv is being repaired and i have got one from a friend for the time being that has only one HDMI port. And B cause xenoblade looks bad undocked I wait intill august for that.
@sanderev Terrible because they aren't trashing it like you want, or...?
@theJGG Think about it this way. The lack of exp kinda sucks, but if their was exp you probably won’t be anymore likely to want to battle (maybe slightly, but not much). Battles have always been a weak point of RPGs. I watched some gameplay of the thousand year door and even in that game they were avoiding battles. The puzzle system also doesn’t look like it takes too long with how fast enemies die if you line them up right. It also looks like that’s the best way to get confetti is from battles because everything else gives you very little. The battles fill up the bag.
@sanderev don't fix what's not broken. That's why we get lazy RPG games lately. It just has some RPG elements and that's it. Because they want to reach more people. And there's hardly a Mario Paper game. Each gen 1. so putting that old RPG system as in previous releases wouldn't hurt. A miss for Nintendo here. Skipping this one hardly
The description of the battle system, combined with the lack of an experience system makes this a hard pass for me. I never had the pleasure of playing the Thousand Year Door, but the original Paper Mario seemed to do things the right way. Exploration and combat were both fun and rewarding in equal measure. This game just doesn't sound like it was designed with the players in mind; it was more like the developers trying to impress themselves with 'muh innovation' instead of being more traditional. Sometimes it's okay to polish something that works well instead of always trying something new and different.
@sanderev
“ 1. Nintendo makes the same game.
Fans: we want something new!
2. Nintendo makes something new:
Fans: we want the same game!!”
Of course. ‘Fans’ is a large group of people with different opinions on things.
@ShinEon I've read the review twice now and it sounds to me, the only real negative pointed out is the battle system. But its made clear that despite the battle system, everything else surrounding it is where the reviewer's enjoyment and recommendation come in. And even then, it is noted that the battle system isn't an entire wash (specifically boss battles being the highlight). Maybe I'm missing something in the review. But having read it twice through, I can get a sense of where his enjoyment of the game comes from despite his hang-ups with it.
How has the user reviews reached 10 when it's not out yet?
An 8/10 seems generous if a central gameplay element like combat is admitted to be "a slog" and "an unnecessary gimmick". It seems too significant of a flaw to paint (or throw confetti) over.
Here's an example of what I mean: Let's say I chart out a walk in a given city. This walk includes a variety of wonderful things to observe along the way, but it takes you through a crime-addled area where the pavement is either missing or uneven. Although this segment may be surrounded by more pleasant features, does it make sense to call this a "great" walk?
From an outsider's perspective, as I will not be buying this game, the puzzle system seems like it would be an entertaining gimmick if limited to a single boss battle or, more broadly, a dungeon, at most. Stretching it across the entire game just sounds frustrating. Given battling irrefutably makes up a large portion of the game and is one even biased sources like Nintendo Life admit is best avoided, Paper Mario: The Origami King comes as an easy pass.
I shared more conclusive thoughts on Paper Mario: The Origami King and the series as a whole in the last PM-centric article NL published. I'm going to include it here to close out, as I see more people agreeing with the overall theme of the post:
With most (if not all) of the RPG aspects convincingly and permanently gutted from a series that was once called Mario RPG 2, there's some solace to be found in finally leaving it behind rather than hoping for a return to the glory days. 2020 brought us RPG fans many joys through heavy hitters like Trials of Mana, Final Fantasy 7R, and Xenoblade Chronicles: DE, but, regrettably, Paper Mario won't be joining them. To echo the sentiment from a certain headline, Paper Mario: The Origami King doesn't want to replicate the games of the past. The series has long since moved on from its RPG roots, and internalizing this clarification is important. The best we older fans can hope for are ports of the first two games, it seems, and that's okay ... assuming Nintendo eventually delivers.
This isn't a bad review, just a truly bizarre one. It's a bit Frankenstein-esque in how it's put together, and I hope I'm not the only one leaving it without a clear idea of whether or not it's a great game I get that it couldn't be clearer that the author recommends it, but it's a bit Jekyll and Hyde in it's praise and disappointment.
That, and the score is not reflective of the negative tone to a lot of the review. Still, it is what it is!! I've never seen an 8/10 review turn so many people off buying a game. Weird times.
I really prefer without experience points. Farming xp takes precious time. I prefer evolution based on exploration to find new items or upgrades (yes, Metroid and Zelda... I wish a Fire Emblem based on that, but at least it have automated fights). Maybe this is the right entering for me
@sanderev
You forgot "to easy" and "to many moons" for SMO.
That battle system doesn’t sound great at all. I’ll maybe wait and watch a few videos to get a better idea but it’s not promising, sounds like that ‘innovation for the sake of it’ thing Nintendo are prone to do. Not sure this is going to intrude on my backlog. Shame.
Seems like some editor score tinkerage going on here
Cant wait till Friday
In reality, "gamers" hate anything new. They want the same thing over and over again just with better graphics and a different story.
@MsJubilee You said commotion, you cherry picked a single comment. That's one guy who is mad, amidst lots of casual conversation. What are you going on about? Why are you trying to invent problems that aren't there?
@Jbuggydroid yeah, one problem is that I'm not the biggest fan of bugs but I could likely ignore it if the game is engaging enough.
I think that ttyd is a bit overrated, the only paper mario game that I really enjoyed was the first one. I've always prefered the Mario & Luigi series, the mechanics and battle system are way more fun. Even though the later games aren't as great as the early ones, they are still rpgs at least. I'll get this game anyway, think it's the closest thing of a mario rpg we'll get now that alphadream in no more...
@Heavyarms55 agreed. That or the Wii version wasn’t bad either but every iteration of this franchise afterwards misses the mark for me.
@sanderev good point lol
@nintendope64 Perhaps it's a testament to the game itself? The review came across as pretty thorough, to me. Sounded like he didn't want to miss any of the big things.
@sanderev how exactly is that Nintendolife's fault?
Nintendolife reviews the game, the readers review the review. Another day on the Internet.
Nice review and nice score. I expected a 8, and it has 81% average on Metacritic at the moment. I didn't expect the new battle-system to be sooo decisive though. The Nintendolife reviewer didn't like it, but I really hope I do like it. If not, well there's still the world to explore.
@Bomberman64 lol. Understandable. Tho the game as that unique look to it. Def check out some gameplay video and watch some reviews.
@RCGamer FE has barely any exploration, that would not work at all
I'm all in. Ill be grabbing it Friday.
I do agree with some of you though: The review doesn't sound like a 8, more like a 7 since he hated the battle-system so much.
Seems every site is giving Nintendo the consolation prize for being creative over actually making a game that is enjoyable to play. If I wanted creative and cool to look at I would just watch something. If the core of the game isn't fun than it doesn't matter how cool it looks.
Every time a new paper Mario is announced I get excited and then disappointed once it’s out.
Is it me or is Nintendo trying to much with this series?
What was wrong with the first two games of the series?
#LESS IS MORE
@jtmnm "How is an 8/10 justified if central gameplay elements like battles are admitted to be "a slog" and "an unnecessary gimmick"? It seems far too significant of a flaw to paint (or throw confetti) over."
It's probably like D&D. The battles are generally a slog to get through, and can sometimes be unnecessary, and most of D&D's mechanics are based off of the battle system. But it can be incredibly fun if you have a good story behind the tedium.
@Samuel-Flutter Tedious and 8/10 don't really go together. People play games for gameplay, not just deal with it to see something cool and hear a nice story.
About what I expected, 81 on Metacritic, and the negatives being the battle system. While I'll still pick it up because I have nothing else to play, what bothers me is the wasted potential this game had. If they made the battles less gimmicky and more useful, I think this game could have been comparable to the original game.
@Cyrax77 Same But i will pick it up in a month or two just to see what nintendo has in store.
The comment section on this site is getting sadder and sadder by the day.
@doctorhino
Pardon the question, but what is the core of the game and who decides what that core is?
I'm ok if this is what the future of Paper Mario is.....it's a fun, unique little series. But I'm only ok with it if it doesn't mean Mario RPG is permadead. This series became what it is because M&L was the Mario RPG continuance. With AlphaDream shuttered, we don't know if M&L and thus Mario RPG is dead for good.
Especially since AlphaDream cited low revenues and high dev costs as the reason to shutter, and they pretty much only made M&L it doesn't sound good for a revival of an expensive series that doesn't earn revenue. OTOH, they were forever trapped on the dying 3DS and stuck making remakes for years, I'm not sure if Nintendo was holding them down, or if they just had so little money all they could manage to make was remakes.
@Samuel-Flutter If players can rationalize forcing themselves through less than desirable game mechanics for the sake of enjoying the overall experience, more power to them. I'll be quick to admit I'm not one of them.
If this game has "Sniffit or Whiffit" I'm in
@TG16_IS_BAE yeah that's true. If such a fundamental part of the gameplay isn't great but the rest of it is such fun it must be a difficult game to assess!
Also, how is it Intelligent Systems, the makers of much lauded Fire Emblem still can't figure out how to make a good battle system for Paper Mario?
@MrBlacky I always consider the core of the game to be the part that you can strategically get better at and have the most control over. In this case the battle system seems like the most likely candidate.
It's called Paper Mario, not Mario RPG or Paper Mario RPG. It hasn't been a traditional rpg game in over a decade. I think it's time people except that this series is a story driven adventure game with RPG lite elements and move on
@Lettersnnumbers I don't express myself right. I prefer evolution through "items". Zelda and Metroid you find items through exploration, but could be story driven (in certain point you get the item) or how well you go (you receive the Item X if you don't let any innocent die in the Y area for example). I don't like to do the same thing over and over again (and that's why I hate almost all online mode games)
@jtmnm First of all, this is not a RPG series anymore, Nintendo said it long ago. So we'd better just assume that.
Secondly, most reviews I've seen they say the battle system is brilliant and so much fun. However, the best thing of the game is the exploration, the variety of situations, the humour, and the art style.
For what I've seen, this game deserves more than just 8/10.
I'll check out Bug Fables instead. Will maybe pick this up if it goes on sale at some point.
I heard in a youtube video Q & A that it runs at 30fps, which is really too bad. 1000 Year Door, Super Paper Mario, and Color Splash all have top notch production values wih their locked 60fps graphics. I'm still planning to play this, but only in docked mode with dejudder turned on.
Edit: After googling it I now think Color Splash runs at 30fps. I've only played a little bit of it. I must have had dejudder turned on which would make it look perfectly smooth.
also edit: these comments are cracking me up.
@NEStalgia Have you played it already? While many don't, like this one, most reviews I read agreed that this battle system is great.
I miss the exp points, though. I know it's not a RPG anymore, but still, that'd make this game perfect for me, probably.
A little disappointed to hear that it lacks much of the JRPG elements of the game that really make it an 8 or 9 out of 10, but still looks really good and can't want to get my hands on it.
@the_beaver You're restating something at me I included in my post. Read a little further next time.
As for the second part of your comment, it disagrees with the Review Round Up NL published not too long ago. The overall consensus seems to acknowledge it's a good game with a [synonymous descriptor for "bad"] battle system.
@doctorhino You literally just described all old RPGs. They were usually just a menu selection that you got through to enjoy the story. Not saying you can't enjoy it, but it doesn't help.
@jtmnm Yeah I get that. If I'm not having fun with a game I usually stop. But there's a lot of times in D&D when you just gotta get through the rough bits to have fun again.
Seems like a genuine fun game. As someone who has played every Paper Mario, the combat was rarely the highlight of the older games. The boss battles were always fun, but the combat itself was always not that engaging. You always started the battle with Goomba (tattle) > then swap to a different party member > Then if on the ground use your Hammer > if in the air you jump > if the have a spike and flying using your Throw Hammer skill. Rinse and repeat. That and TTYD had some tedious backtracking in some chapters and the puzzles were never all that difficult. In fact, I found myself skipping combat encounters frequently when replaying TTYD because I just got sick of the standard enemy encounters.
I found the combat only ever gelled together when you were in a boss battle. That was when you used more complex moves and interesting action commands. That and you constantly switched the party members to gain an advantage. That or if the battles were too difficult it was more because you had not optimized your Badges than actual in combat tactics.
I always found the pros of TTYD or the Original games were the interesting side characters. That and the diverse gameplay when in the overworld, from puzzles, Peach sections, interesting characters and world. The stories of TTYD and Super were the standouts because they were different from your standard Mario fare.
I'm willing to try The Origami King because it looks like it has good puzzles, fun characters and a fun story. If the gameplay does not scratch my itch that's fine. Paper Mario has never been one of the better RPG games when it comes to mechanic complexities.
Yeah...gonna pass on this now. I would say I will wait on a sale but let’s be honest, that’s not gonna happen any time soon. Shame really as I love the art direction here but there doesn’t appear to be enough meat on the bones gameplay wise to keep me interested for long
@TG16_IS_BAE Call me crazy, but I kind of thought the reason for me reading this review was so I didn't have to Google a review. Otherwise there could just be a review titled "Paper Mario: Here's What You Need to Google".
Thanks for the 30 hour update info. The "brutal" difficulty part does kind of scare me off but my 1 son always appreciates a challenge so I'll give it a try.
@Samuel-Flutter In most rpgs the battle system is the core of the gameplay. Personal 5 is very much like that, Pokemon S/S, Octopath Traveller, all new games. Not sure how what I was describing is obsolete like you make it sound like with just a menu selection to get to the story.
It's weird. The recent paper mario game have good story and interaction outside the battle mode, but the battle mechanics are always weird. I suppose people want the battle mechanics more than an interesting story/interesting overworld.
I fell asleep watching the Treehouse play through of the start of the game. I know the start of the game is never the best bit 😀
@ianl579 I dunno. The breakable gear items, are still much closer to rpg conventions of, say, Final Fantasy Legends(1-2-3) or Fire Emblems than the deck of cards of Color Splash.
Since a nuance make it sound hammer/boots at least can be used multiple times before breaking rather than the single use cards of Color Splash that required you to carry 50+ cards at all time.
Plus the puzzle box mechanics of fights at least seem much more involved than Color Splash, especially when it'll come to boss fights(especially since the 'challenge' of Color Splash was literally "I hope you brought the right card or else you're doomed to lose utterly" whereas this review actually compliments the interactive puzzles of boss fights in this game)
@jtmnm I haven't read those reviews, so I don't know. The ones I've always trusted, in my language, say the battle system is great and so much fun. That's all I care. As for this website... I mean, they gave Animal Crossing a 10/10 XD. Sometimes we have to disagree.
As for the other thing, I meant that you might have come here expecting a RPG, and that's why you got dissappointed, but Nintendo made it clear long ago (as you mentioned). So I don't know why still complain about that. If we want the original Paper Mario experience (TTYD is one my absolute best games ever) we better go play them again. That's it.
Meawhile, let's open up for these new experiences. Color Splash was a really good game, if not brilliant, and considering this one is much better in every way, I really can't wait to play it!
@commentlife I know, right? So much negativity here...
@KoopaTheQuick Took forever to find this all:
Kimishima said this in a joint 2018 financial Q&A with Kurusawa while Kurusawa was getting acclimated:
"After Mr. Yamauchi’s presidency, there was a change in the environment surrounding Nintendo, where no longer could any single person decide matters on their own. That was the start of the collective leadership system that I, too, have carried on. In my view, Mr. Furukawa’s role as president is to bring the best out of the excellent people responsible for software development, hardware development, sales, and marketing. He must steer Nintendo as a whole, and push for the points that must not change. The executive board resolved to choose Mr. Furukawa as the right person for that role." One on hand, nothing too juicy. Keep in mind Iwata wasn't president until Yamauchi stepped down in 2002. When Kimishima took over after Iwata passed away he said he planned to "to change our directorial structure to speed up decision-making and execution on a variety of projects that members of the management team were considering at the time." You can see where this is going.
Furukawa then said this in that same financial meeting, that he planned to refocus development "under a next-generation collective leadership system." He followed it up by saying, ""Mr. Kimishima has shown through his own actions what it means to manage a company collectively rather than relying on the efforts of a single person, and I understand my role as one of continuing on the same course," Furukawa said. I remember more being reiterated elsewhere ut am having trouble finding it since all the Furukawa stuff now is showing up for 2019 and 2020 "IS THERE GONNA BE NEW HARDWARE" kind of articles.
Miyamoto's role changed a lot in what he was focusing on:
General Manager of Nintendo EAD (1984–2015)
Senior Managing Director at Nintendo (2002–2015)
Representative Director at Nintendo (2002-present)
Fellow at Nintendo (2015-present)
He's sort of more a Stan Lee with more actual duties, but he's overseeing a lot of stuff that extends out past...flipping the "tea table over" and overseeing games. In 2018 (and you can google some of these articles) there was a lot of talk around this, that Nintendo creatively was going to have more synergy between creatives, than one dude coming in a making people restart stuff willy nilly. You can doubt this, say I'm stretching, but the only credit Miyamoto gets in Paper Mario today is a "special thanks." So in this instance, if this game reflects Miyamoto's influence as you said, it's just a hold over from what he told the creative team years ago.
@bobzbulder That's a small turn off in Final Fantasy X, which I just got. The lack of a proper EXP system confused me but I learnt the ropes pretty quickly. Ultimately I might end up getting TOK, because I've never played a PM game before, only Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam.
@scully1888 Thanks for a great review. Don't linger too long in the comments.
@sanderev,
How dare you suggest such things, the idea some on here do not know what they really want, the idea is simply absurd.
Honestly, based off of what I read in the review, this game sounds incredible. I think I can look past the iffy combat to explore the unique areas described in this review!
Still definitely picking up my preorder.
@doctorhino
I see. What, would you say, is the core mechanic in Animal Crossing or Zelda?
@sanderev
i feel like this is oversimplifying the debates.
for example the new super mario bros series, a lot of the complaints came from things like re used assets and themes, wheres the standard mario gameplay was still considered to hold up.
with things like the paper mario series a lot of the discussion is regarding the rpg elements being largely removed and how some felt the newer ones played it a bit safe with the npcs sticking to traditional mario characters compared to the older ones more unique (in terms of the mario series) designs introduced.
these are only a few examples but more often than not discussion has a lot more sides to it than "its different/the same so it sucks"
i am still very much looking forward to playing this game but i am just giving examples of why people would be unhappy
“It still isn't the new Thousand-Year Door fans will have been hoping for”
D’oh 😢
Wow. People complained about Sticker Star and Colour Splash's combat system and the lack of incentive and Nintendo goes and makes a battle system you want to avoid completely because it's not even fun either, lol.
Outside of boss battle I'm not seeing much gameplay here.
So the score does seem a little odd.
But having played SS and CS I'm certain the humour and scenarios are top notch.
Like a lot of other people I'm still majorly disappointed how it's not even remotely a return-to-form. But I hate missing out on a Paper Mario game, so I'll just wait until there's a really, really good sale and then give it a chance. If only for the story and humour.
@doctorhino I did say Old didn't I? The RPGs you listed were from the last few years. I was talking about NES RPGs like the original Final Fantasy. They were generally weren't played for their combat.
@scully1888 Great job with the review! It was really in-depth and thorough and you weren’t afraid to criticize parts of the game you didn’t like, as well as praise parts of the game you did like. It was really informative! While I disagree with the number rating (I would say it sounds more like a 7), numbering is all subjective anyway (so that 7 is my opinion, just like the 8 is yours and neither of those are “wrong”) and the most important part of a review is the description of the game and experience with the game, which you nailed. So great job!
Good review
Very much looking forward to playing it on Friday.
@the_beaver A language barrier can definitely make things confusing. I'm happy for you, regardless, and I genuinely hope you get the most out of The Origami King.
To add a little bit of context to my post, I looked to Paper Mario's latest outing to confirm one thing: whether or not the hallmark Mario RPG is, in fact, dead, and it looks like it is. With Alpha Dream gone and the Mario & Luigi series along with it, it doesn't look like we'll be getting another Mario RPG anytime soon. Affirming that acknowledgement is the point I tried to make.
battle system looks god ffffffffffffffffffffff awfull
@WiltonRoots They also gave Sticker Star 8/10...
@Apportal "is it as good as its predecessors? In no way"
And you still don't get it?
@Samuel-Flutter I think I misunderstood your point than. I don't know, I think it was still a novelty to have turn based combat back then but I doubt people were going nuts over the gameplay of it.
I remember being more into action RPGs up until around the psx era. Still not really sure what you were saying, that people enjoyed those games despite the combat being dull so this game should be enjoyable the same way?
Not interested. Tons of charm and attention wasted on what seems utterly mechanically unengaging. Like a Pixar movie without humor or fellz. They should either rethink the core gameplay loop, or focus their ressources elsewhere. A shame really.
@SpaceboyScreams well, I don’t think hating a game cause it’s not what you wanted is a good argument. 🤔
@SMBSS Wake up 20 years ago
@Apportal When it's not what ANYbody wants I think it's a wonderful argument. If you, like most PM fans, can see that it's a step down from its glory days then of course it's worth complaining about.
I look forward to picking this up on Friday- it looks charming!
@doctorhino "that people enjoyed those games despite the combat being dull so this game should be enjoyable the same way"
Yeah, basically that was it. People can definitely find this game enjoyable, even if combat is a slog. Granted not necessarily everyone will, but it definitely seems like the reviewer did.
@SpaceboyScreams
It’s just my opinion. I’m not trying to change anyone else’s, I’m just stating why so I don’t get hated on cause the internet is something. If you don’t get it, I understand. I don’t control your choices. Happy gaming 😊
It seems like Nintendo is focusing too much on the art style/graphics of this series (and yoshi).
@MrBlacky In reality, "gamers" hate anything new. They want the same thing over and over again just with better graphics and a different story.
See Dragon Quest which is a very successful franchise because they don't stray too far from their roots.
If Square Enix wants to make an adventure game instead of an RPG, it won't be a mainline Dragon Quest title. Seems simple enough to me.
It sounds better than most, of not all the Paper Mario games wince TTYD?
It's slightly flawed but still seems a quality playthrough so I will probably get it
@Samuel-Flutter Yeah, the more I look at the combat it looks like it could be pretty fun for the first bit of the game. I'm sure plenty of people are going to like this game regardless because it sounds like the combat during boss battles is much more unique and engaging.
This was about what I was expecting it to be: a not-quite RPG/adventure game hybrid with wonderful writing, characters, and a meh combat system. More or less what I liked and disliked with Color Splash.
Taken for what it is and not as a full RPG, this does read like it's a decent game. I'll likely pick it up eventually, but I have more than enough other games to keep me occupied right now.
until Nintendo and Inteligent System add all the tradicional Paper Mario elements like XP and real Parterns, Paper Mario is dead now for me and a lot of people.
Nice review, still very much interested in this game. Definitely picking this up after clearing some of the backlog.
I’m sure the game has quality and heart because it’s Nintendo, but in my eyes it’s just a sad reminder of what could have been. I just miss leveling up and a true Mario rpg. That worked just fine.
"Guys, calm down, how do you know it's going to be Sticker Star 3? Have you even played it?"
Oh, look at that, it came out, and it's Sticker Star 3. Color Splash me surprised.
"Nintendo fans just want the same thing over and over, try something new!"
And yet, they've made three of these papercraft abominations now. They officially outnumber the good Paper Mario games.
I really just don't understand how they keep doing this. Is the new style just that much more popular? Are the people clamoring for a true sequel to 64/TTYD just a vocal minority? Do they just sell better, so Nintendo keeps making them like this? I just don't know anymore.
I urge any original Paper Mario fans disillusioned by this review to check out Bug Fables instead.
Will buy it at some point, but not right away. Still hoping for a mario RPG. Please Nintendo read these comments lol.
All I'm reading about this game sounds disappointing and that's a shame because I expected a worthy Paper Mario this time.
I really wish I could see myself getting into this game as I did with the first Paper Mario but I just don't think I can. It seems like such a shallow experience to me. What good are pretty environments and a funny storyline if the gameplay surrounding them looks as simplistic and shallow as a paper plate? I just don't see anything new or compelling here besides an apparently pointless battle system that provides no incentive to actually use it.
@Apportal
"I honestly don’t understand why this game gets hate...Is it as good as its predecessors? In no way."
"Just enjoy that Nintendo made Paper Mario for the switch people, don’t be greedy 😔"
"Oh no! What will they do without one (1) single human being not buying their products? 😂"
"well, I don’t think hating a game cause it’s not what you wanted is a good argument. 🤔"
I made a small collection of your posts on this thread. From what I'm reading, you don't care if a game is good or not; just so long as Nintendo makes it. And everyone should suck it up and be happy, not be so greedy to want something worth their money. What a terrible policy that is
hopefully we have more than Mario ports for the rest of the year. Because Animal Crossing cannot carry an entire year as the only quality, brand new experience
....Remember back when Mario RPGs had originality....and were RPGs?
This game reads like a 5/10, which is a shame since I was hoping it would be more impressive than that. Still, I’m sure it’s still charming for what it is. Maybe I’ll get this when there’s a sale...
So... now about that Metroid easter egg we saw awhile back. Any day now we’ll get some Metroid news... right?
I got Color Splash on sale several years ago, and I tried getting into it. I just wasn’t hooked, and got bored. I didn’t get very far. I tried to beat Sticker Star, actually made it to Bowser, and the game just wasn’t blowing me away. I put it down and never bothered to rematch him. I’m a huge Mario fan, my whole life, and I wonder if it was me, my age, being into different games, or if those games really were weak. I just fear Origami King will collect dust like my other Paper Mario games, that I gave an honest try to. Super Mario RPG is still one of my very favorite games. Maybe theres a bias? Who knows...
Intelligent Systems are an awesome developer, one of the best. Why did they make the same mistake thrice in a row? Is it Nintendo telling them to make Paper Mario casual?
Hard pass...again.
Ever since Sticker Star, Paper Mario's gameplay has existed in its own closed loop (Combat wastes attacks and rewards coins only used to gain new attacks) completely detached from the rest of the game that no amount of charm could save it for me.
It doesn't even need to be a full blown RPG, but the trilogies combat gameplay is simply completely useless and tacked on and have been an utter waste of time.
It begs for a "Super Paper Mario" approach. If you want to focus more on adventuring, puzzles and exploration, then don't bog it all down with a combat system that has no purpose.
@sixrings
No different then PlayStation fans loving action adventure titles but will tell you how much they don't like Zelda.
We all have our biases I guess. 🤷
An RPG doesn't need an exp system to be considered an RPG or a good RPG. A lot of TTRPGs don't use it. D&D is better when you don't use it imo. And though the battle system does look boring the fact that they aren't necessary is actually a plus then.
I wasn't going to play this but this review has made me reconsider. If the story is good, then I'm here for it.
I will contain my curiosity and not read any analysis or videos. I prefer to have a complete experience. More and more difficult nowadays, but I think it's valid.
A little disappointed. I wanted the EXP system. It is not a deal breaker. It will be on my Wishlist. I am still playing Cold Steele/Trials so I could wait.
So just imagine Nintendo didn’t try and push this game as a sub-genre experiment, trying to find its new unique identity, and just stuck with its RPG routes. Sounds like it would be close to a 10, according to this review. I just don’t get their forced Paper Mario identity crisis.
@KayFiOS I've never played a Paper Mario game in my life so I don't really see what the relevance of a Sticker Star review is. These games always look fun and charming to me, whether I'd have the time to sit and play one all the way through I'm not sure. It intrigues me so I read the review.
I've seen how highly strung the Paper Mario fan base is in here, not quite as bad as Pokemon or Metroid fans, but pretty damn close - it's sad that the reviewer was inevitably going to get a lot of grief just for doing his job...over a form of light entertainment.
It's worth playing just for the writing alone. THAT'S what made the old games so special and fun, not the watered down RPG mechanics.
The lack of experience points doesn't mean there's no progression. It's just done more in the style of Zelda with heart containers and items. I think most of you thinking of passing on this because it doesn't seem like TTYD should give this game a chance.
This is coming from a guy that cringed hard at the paper craft graphics and lack of experience points too for the first few hours of this game, because PM64 and TTYD were my childhood and I still adore them. Once you get that first party member the game takes a huge turn and becomes just as magical as the first two games.
Give it a chance!
I loved the old Paper Mario games back then because they gave life to the world of Mario in ways the platformers just never did. This game reminded me of that.
Nope. I'll save my money for a thousand year door remaster. I hope it happens and I HOPE it outsells this origami king so it rubs it in their face that this is what we want. It's not friggin hard to understand. I mean I haven't owned a paper Mario game since my blunder with sticker star. Had fun with the paper jam crossover but my gawd, do I have to go the PC route to get my paper Mario RPG fix?
Well this is what we kind of expected wasn't it. Let it bomb then, it's their own stubborn fault at this point.
Universal praise for the game, universal panning of the horrible battle system. It's color splash all over again then! I already ordered and can't wait to play it, but I'm so bummed out they refuse to fix the one thing holding this series back!
@Classic603 you took the time to do that? Thanks, I guess?
i wouldn't say 8/10, have played / finished the game, i'd give it a 7 , combat is baaaad, companions not being perm is bad too, walking around running to random places feels like it takes up too much time and theres some pretty frustrating parts
@Wolfgabe still waiting :3
@WiltonRoots they're really fun, you can't go wrong with any of them (even the sticker star they mention.) Definitely just pick the one you can get hold of the easiest. The art styles are timeless and the stories aren't connected!
The problem with all these games is that they cling to an rpg structure but leave out the systems that actually makes an rpg fun. Like a race game where you can only push gas, but can't steer. Or one that only goes in a cirkel without any opponents. It's a shame because the fix is so easy. Make him level up and get a bit stronger from battling.
Now you just get stopped every 20 seconds to spend a minute doing something meaningless.
This mindless grinding trend started with the sticker star game and carried over in the latest two games. That's why they keep bringing it up. You've got three fantastic games that all have the same flaw keeping them down.. And they are just so amazing, lovingly crafted in every other way. Just baffling!
But again, these games have been so clever, funny and exciting in every other aspect that you really can't go wrong with any of them!
Ok I’m sorry but I cancelled my preorder. The lack of experience gaining and overall incentive to battle really turns me off. I get annoyed by random battles and trainer encounters in Pokémon so I think this is going to be more of that. I just don’t want to spend $60 and not finish it because I get annoyed. :/
I WILL pick the game up at some point when it goes on sale because it looks to be stuffed to the gills with charm and that’s what I like about the series, but I just can’t justify it with having no incentive for combat. I’m getting picky with my games and time (and money!) in my older age I guess! 🤷♂️
I hope those that do get the game enjoy the hell out of it. It looks like a solid Nintendo game.
I also think this should be grounds for having Paper Mario in Smash Bros! Especially with the whole 35th anniversary thing on top of it all. I’ll be so happy.
Hello everyone, just want to address a few points here that will hopefully clear some things up.
First and foremost, I obviously stand by the review and the score. Without wishing to toot my own horn, I've been doing this professionally for over 14 years now and have reviewed thousands of games (including over 100 on Nintendo Life): with the greatest respect in the world, I'm not going to listen to anyone who tells me how I should have scored it or what it "reads like". You're completely within your rights to disagree with me (once you've played it), but that's my stance and it won't change.
Secondly, any sort of suggestions that there's either some sort of bias or that these scores are a group decision are complete nonsense and frankly offensive: after all, since reviews are pretty much the main part of this gig, it's essentially telling us that we aren't doing our jobs properly.
I have never and would never write for a publication that tells me what score to give games. The management at Nintendo Life trust me to review games to the best of my ability, and I trust them to publish my reviews without editing their message and compromising their integrity. The day I'm told what score to give a game here is the day I stop writing reviews for this site: that day shows no signs of ever coming.
As for the game itself: no, I didn't get along with the battle system. But please note that nowhere did I say it's absolutely terrible. When I got in a battle, I sighed: that's about as strongly as I felt about them.
The point is that these games mainly live or die by their story and their sense of humour, and in that sense I think this is one of the best games in the series. When the credits rolled, I still sat back satisfied that I'd enjoyed a brilliant adventure, with some hilarious set-pieces. I even came close to shedding a tear at one point.
It's very frustrating, then, to see people looking at a score of 8 and saying "ugh, I suppose I'll have to wait for a GOOD Paper Mario game, then". This is one: you don't have to wait.
It appears that what many of them mean is that they wanted a turn-based battle system as in The Thousand-Year Door, and because this isn't one they aren't interested. That's up to them, and they're perfectly entitled to feel that way: I don't personally believe that makes this a bad game as a result, but there you go.
For the people asking: "Why are you criticising it for not being an RPG when they never said it was?" - firstly, some people wanted to know if it was like The Thousand-Year Door. Secondly, the thing still has random, turn-based battles, items, summons and the like. People can claim it isn't trying to be RPG all they like, but it certainly feels like one, except for the lack of an XP system (which is pretty crucial). If it isn't trying to be an RPG, it should ditch turn-based battling altogether and go back down the Super Paper Mario route. Until then, people are still going to see turn-based battling and expect an RPG.
Think I'll stop there - sorry for the enormous post, but I'm not the sort to post a review and run away, I'm always happy to clarify any points. What I'm not always happy to do, though, is deal with anyone who accuses me (or any other reviewer) of bias or anything underhanded, or try to tell us how reviews are supposed to work.
I don't want to hijack this any more, so feel free to chuck me a message on Twitter if you want to continue debating it! ❤
@commentlife why? Because of the people that will justify nintendo at every turn? If that is the case, yes, I agree. Unbeliavable and sad they would just throw money at nintendo while saying "but be better, ok?"
@scully1888 it’s okay! You made a good review, don’t worry. There are always going to be haters. Don’t let them get to you though. 😉
@doctorhino it's got like, 4 bosses hahaha, And the final one (which I decided to spoil for me) which is not that cool as everybody is trying to make it seem
@rjejr lol I’m just saying, the information isn’t out of your reach!
It's worth bearing in mind, just because the battle system didn't click for Chris, it doesn't mean it'll be that way for everyone, Metro GameCentral's reviewer enjoyed it.
Either way i'm really looking forward to giving the game a go, i'm as much as a fan of TTYD as any other Paper Mario fan, and desperately want another game in its style......BUT i also really, really enjoyed Colour Splash, i enjoyed it for the adventure game it was and not the RPG it wasnt, it was also a huge improvement over Sticker Star and had the trademark humour the series is known for, most reviewers are saying Origami King has even better writing so that's a big positive for me, can't wait to get stuck into it on friday ! if i can get Spongebob finished in time that is ! lol
@Fulgor_Astral It’s pretty amazing when people blindly support Nintendo, like the company can do no wrong lmao
Can't wait to pick it up on Friday
@TG16_IS_BAE i'm happy this game is divisive. Shows it could have sold way more than what's gonna. Nintendo will notice all of this eventually... if they haven't already
@SMBSS
Yes please.
It was a squenix game though so may never come back.
@Purgatorium You have decided to buy the game because it has a good story. Do you also decide to go see a movie because it has good gameplay? Is your shirt on backwards today too?
@Fulgor_Astral Nah, they already know what people want and they just don't care.
An 8 out of 1p is good.. but it absolutely sucks that we get yet another game that was a pretty fun RPG at one time.. dumbed down to the point where it's no longer an RPG.
The first 2 games are two of my favorite Nintendo games of all time. The games after? Not worth keeping in my collection.
I will get this and judge for myself but no EXP sucks. Removing all traces of RPG elements suck.. etc. I just wish Nintendo would stop "dumbing things down."..I don't care if a game is too hard for babies it whatever. Give me something more difficult than Easy Mode.
And to be clear. I never asked for Paper Mario to be anything different from the first 2.
@arrmixer Gotta remember they're made by Intelligent Soft, famous for Fire Emblem and Advance Wars. Of late they've been more busy with Fire Emblem and its social/story/dating sim feature.
Intelligent Soft have proven themselves capable of making engaging stories, but the gameplay department for Paper Mario is lacking.
This game is a “skip” for me-at least until a hefty discount.
@GonzSolo The new battle system isn't "dumbing down" though. If anything it's over-complicating things by adding puzzles that are often pretty difficult to solve.
If you're unhappy that there aren't standard turn-based battles, I get that: I am too. But if your argument is that it's too easy as a result, that really isn't the case here.
With some franchises Nintendo are determined to continually break what isn't fixed, and yet we get the same NSMB nonsense again and again.
Has anyone actually played the game who is complaining? Last time I checked the game comes out in two days, so unless you got a copy early I bet 99% of you have not even played one minute of the game. Also, I might add that just because the gameplay did not click with one reviewer does not mean it's bad. I mean there are reviews of Persona 5 where the reviewer criticized the gameplay. Does that make Persona 5 a bad game?
If you don't want to play the game that's fine! If you don't think it'll be your jam that is okay too. But, to say it is a bad game when most reviews are coming in with positive praise from an artistic, narrative and gameplay perspective then it's probably a good game. It might just not be a game for you and that is okay. And before someone goes "but, what about the Last of Us Part 2? Professional reviewers cannot be trusted!" Then why are you even on a review for a game if you don't trust reviews?
If you want to criticize the game that's fine, but actually give proper criticisms as from what I've seen the gameplay looks far from dumb-downed. As @scully1888 pointed out it's the opposite. I do agree the lack of EXP is a silly complaint as plenty of RPGs don't use that mechanic but to each their own. You could have done slightly better clarifying that criticism. Still a great review though
@Bomberman64 you make a good point fire emblem is a classic so did they also make 1000 year door?
@Fulgor_Astral I hope so too. I’m afraid they will only analyze sales figures and go from there. They don’t have a very good habit of listening to their fans, but I’m willing to give them a chance to change that.
@Hobbesyall their best selling year too lol
I’m still looking forward to this.
Some reviews are really enjoying the combat (Gamespot for one) and others just aren’t feeling it.
How can people whine about the game when they haven't played it???
Yeah, no.... hard pass for me. I’ll be picking up Ghost of Tsushima instead of this heap of trash. Let me know when they decide they wanna make a real Paper Mario game again.
@liverpoolvk That's what they do round these parts. I mainly come in here to laugh at their meltdowns.
I think the best solution is to separate the Paper Mario series into two. One that continue the RPG route like the first two games and another that continue Miyamoto's vision. That way everyone can be happy. Nobody expected Metroid Prime 4 to happend, yet it got revealed and later they revealed Samus Returns so who knows. There is a chance they separate the series.
Thanks Nintendo, your continued stubbornness sucks. You know what we all want from Paper Mario, yet you refuse to give in. Seriously why do you think a game like this with turn-based puzzle combat would be fun in a game that isn't an RPG?? It's the same as with my one and only complaint with Breath of the Wild, a game like that, and this NEEDS a sense of progression to make the gameplay more rewarding. You've got quite the set of ba//s to make combat like this and call it an "action-adventure" video game. What a joke. I'll be enjoying Ghost of Tsushima instead.
@Diddy64
Intelligent Systems doesnt have the capacity to produce two separate subseries of Paper Mario games alongside Fire Emblem, which is almost certainly going to be their next big game.
@liverpoolvk How can people whine about the game when they haven't played it???
How can people praise the game when they haven't played it?
Why are people so angry? Whether you're excited or disappointed by this game, it's not cool to go after other people because they don't hold the same view as you
@SMBSS
I gave up on Paper Mario years ago. It was ok, because I still had the Mario & Luigi RPG’s from Alphadream.
I wish Nintendo bought the studio, I’m going to miss the M&L series. 😔
@arrmixer yep they've been there since day 1 with Paper Mario and it truely does show with the great story and dialog. I just wish they got some help from Nintendo on how to make an engaging rpg game right. I get that the game looks good but to quote "If [the game] is not fun, why bother?"
It's quite sad to think that now that Alpha Dream, the developers of Mario and Luigi RPGs series, are long gone, we'll probably not see a proper Mario RPG in quite a while. I guess the only realistic hope at this point is a sequel to Mario + Rabbids, which isn't quite the RPG I'm after but it's at least something.
@nimnio A pre-order is praise isn't it? Dropping $60 on a game you haven't played seems like praise to me.
Anyway, it's a general statement. You can't complain about whiners if you don't also complain about praisers when neither group has played the game in question.
@Crono1973 What are you on? A pre-order just means a willingness to buy a game and give it a try. If buying a game is praise then I've "praised" a number of games I've disliked over the years.
People are annoyed by the "whiners" because no one but a select few who got the game early has even played it. So, its annoying to see people write off a game as "bad" based on nothing more than a still very **positive** review. There is not even a single negative review on Metacritic as of this comment. Once the game is out and the general public has played it then we can talk about it being a bad game.
@Wexter The people placing pre-orders haven't played it either, they lay down money for a game they haven't played but you are annoyed by people saying they won't like the game?
@Crono1973 "A pre-order is praise isn't it?" No, it is not
@Crono1973 Which is fine if someone thinks they won't like a game. But, they are basing an opinion of a few lines in a glowing review and are bashing a game close to no one has played based on nitpick in a review. When other reviews have even praised the gameplay as FUN. If people don't play the game for themselves then how will they know if they like it? I remember The Last Remnant came out back in 2009 and people were bashing on it hard. I tried it despite the negativity and found a game I love to death! It is now today a cult classic. Same with the original NIER.
Maybe, people just need to relax a bit. It's a Paper Mario game and it seems to be a good game. If it's not to your taste that is okay but let people buy the game and try it for themselves. If they don't like it then cool. If they like it also cool. But, you won't know till you try it.
@Anri02 Oh no, did I step on a nerve. Criticizing pre-ordering is a sin these days because most game consumers have now been conditioned to buy a game months in advance.
You can't cancel a digital pre-order from Nintendo so I guess those people are stuck with this game.
So, its annoying to see people write off a game as "bad" based on nothing more than a still very **positive** review
When the positive review admits that the battle system sucks then you know it's a bad game.
@Dreyness BOTW does have a sense of progression though. Honestly, I think experience points are a pretty bad game mechanic. At least how they are commonly used (Especially experience points earned just through battling). It promotes mindless grinding.
BOTW has more interesting leveling mechanics.
@Crono1973 You did not step on a nerve. Pre-order=praise is just an extremely bizarre stance to take.
@Crono1973 The reviewer did not even call the gameplay bad. He was just apathetic towards it. That's putting words in the reviewer's mouth. He also praised the story, art design and music, other elements and at the end felt satisfied with the game. I've played a lot of games that I've enjoyed where the gameplay was nothing to write home about.
Just please stop it with this bizarre world you live in where you get to dictate if something is bad without even experiencing it and coming up with bizarre complaints about people praising a game for just buying it.
@roboshort exp is a bad game mechanic, lol, well than you sir don't like RPGs.
I am a bit shocked with all the hostality towards this game. The game still looks interesting to me and I am looking forward to playing it soon.
At this point you either can live with the fact Paper Mario isn't a rpg-series anymore, or you just move on. I am wondering what the Japanese think of the current state of Paper Mario. Nintendo does always base their decisions on the Japanese perception. I suspect that the Japanese actually love Paper Mario as it is now. And if it didn't sell anymore Nintendo wouldn't make it this way anymore. As I said before: If you can't live with it, just move on. Or try Bug fables on the e-shop!
@Henmii I guess Bug Fables it is. I wonder if it will see an unexpected increase in sales when Origami King releases and doesn't live up to the RPG legacy.
@Anri02 Why is that? A person buying a game is the opposite of someone not buying a game because they don't think they will like it.
@roboshort Getting more heart containers/stamina vessels wasn't enough in my opinion for a game with such a massive world as BOTW had. And when I say a "sense of progression" I don't mean only experience, a type of perk system or skill trees, getting new, interesting, and fun abilities on top of experience and leveling would have made BOTW my #1 favorite game of all time. I know that isn't something Zelda games do but Eiji Aonuma had made it clear he wanted to completely rethink the series' conventions.
@Crono1973 I've pre-ordered games that I've later regretted buying. I certainly have no praise to give Resident Evil ORC, but I did pre-order it
@Anri02 I pre-ordered fallout 76...
@Henmii As I said before: If you can't live with it, just move on.
..but if you love it feel free to sing praises?
@Henmii I don't get it either. Paper Mario has not been a conventional RPG since Super Paper Mario on the Wii. That was like... 13 years ago? That and Bug Fables looks AMAZING! Really wanna try that. But, I'm also excited to try the Origami King as the puzzle-combat looks super fresh and fun!
Then again we live in a super polarizing world now where a game scoring an 8/10 and having no negative reviews on Metacritic = instant bad game grrrrr!
@doctorhino Ouch
The only good thing to come out of discovering this new Paper Mario isn't the game I was hoping for is discovering Bug Fables today, watched Arlo's review on it and the game looks amazing. Going to buy it now.
@Anri02 For me it was Too Human... I won't get that money back. ;_;
@Wexter Then again we live in a super polarizing world now where a game scoring an 8/10 and having no negative reviews on Metacritic = instant bad game grrrrr!
Honestly, the 8/10 seems out of place when you call the battle system a slog. The battle system is no doubt a large and important part of the game.
@Wexter Big oof
@Crono1973 to quote the man himself in a follow-up:
"As for the game itself: no, I didn't get along with the battle system. But please note that nowhere did I say it's absolutely terrible. When I got in a battle, I sighed: that's about as strongly as I felt about them."
"It's very frustrating, then, to see people looking at a score of 8 and saying "ugh, I suppose I'll have to wait for a GOOD Paper Mario game, then". This is one: you don't have to wait."
That sounds like apathy at worst not outright damnation from him. Which isn't the worst thing considering the combat is being praised by other publications. Sounds like he really liked the game, but just didn't care about the combat system. I'm sure you've had games you've felt similar about, but still enjoyed.
This game can't be bad, at least in my opinion. I actually enjoyed SS and CS a lot. 64 and TTYD are definitely better, but people hate on the newer games way too much. SPM is the only one I would say I didn't enjoy.
@Wexter He said it was a slog.
@Crono1973 He also called it a "good Paper Mario" game and stands by his score. insert a shocked Pickachu face!
You haven't answered my question though. You're telling me you've never played a game that you've loved, that has had a weak gameplay loop? LIke never? I can name at least five off the top of my head.
For my perspective I like this review / author's approach; in a few strokes he singles out and confirms the parts of the game that are likely to be objectively bad. Yet is still reassuring in that most of the other parts of the game are quite enjoyable and not entirely ruined by the battle aspect. For me every game is a puzzle to be solved by the player in terms of how they feel best to derive enjoyment. Look at speed running for an example of how far afield games can be enjoyed versus how the developer specifically created them. My long winded way of saying that I will probably avoid the fights as well, lol.
@OptometristLime That happens to me at the end of most RPG games. There is only so much I can take in 30-80 hours before I go... I'm going to skip some of these. I love RPG games, but they always get sloggy near the end. Especially the long ones.
@arrmixer Yeah, I remember my friend telling me he liked the Wii one. But I can't remember the title off of the top of my head.
@Wexter No of course not, why would I love a game with weak gameplay?
I give up, you guys enjoy the game.
@Heavyarms55 Super Paper Mario. The gameplay was ok, but the story was really good
@Wexter I'm going to call you a liar.
I don't think that was necessary.
@Anri02 There we go. Here's to hoping both TYD and SPM come to Switch in some form.
I admit, I'm that guy, I want EVERYTHING I like, on my Switch.
@Giygas_95 You're right, deku deals confirms it hasn't ever been on sale, but highly recommended. It's a weirdo pastiche of tactical RPG, visual novel and Hogwarts.
Probably going to pick Paper Mario up on Friday, too. Just gotta make room on the ol' SD card.
@sanderev Last of Us 2 is absolutely not trash. Long and bloated, yes. Trash, no.
Also Ghost of Tushima launches this week so the PS4 winning streak is still running hot.
@Crono1973 I think it was. You've done nothing but be defensive and ignorant to other people's opinions. And I almost guarantee you just lied to me to try to sell your point. I can smell BS a mile away because everyone has that one game. Whether it is NIER, No More Heroes, Deadly Premonitions, Vampire The Masquerade, Morrowind. The list goes on, but everyone has one they love that has weak gameplay!
@Wexter I've put in 60 hours into DQ11, and then I needed a break because the battles were so grindy and dull. (Part of the reason I'm really looking forward to this)
So as a palate-cleanser, in the last 2 weeks I've put serious hours into Bug Fables and Shadow of Adam, both highly recommended. They both make the core gameplay loop fun. Hoping to finish SoA today.
@Wexter that's a tough question, a game that I was not a fan of the main gameplay but loved. Graveyard keeper is probably one for me, absolute chore of a game but I still like building up my morgue. Dare I say breath of the wild but constantly handling the weapon inventory was not that fun to me but the game was an amazing adventure.
@Wexter I reported it so I guess we'll see what the mods think about it.
@shazbot I just don't know if I would like it as much as older entries. I liked Awakening and Fates somewhat less, but Echoes was one of my favorite games in the entire series along with the GBA games.
@shazbot It happened to me with Persona 5. I was like done after the Casino Level, but the game just went on... and on... and on... It was probably one of my only times I'd say a game was too long!
I will totally check out Shadow of Adam! That looks just up my ally of fun! I keep meaning to start Bug Fables, but then I get busy. I'm going to try to make the time for it this week!
we've had persona 5 royal and ffvii remake on PS4 this year though, so not so bad for PS4 owners
@Fulgor_Astral You forgot about Ghost of Sushi-Man.
They also get nervous putting challenge in any of their games lately...
they backed off on making either the puzzle elements more diverse, or the RPG elements were challenging...
This is Nintendo trying to make it so much for everyone that it's bland, while at the same time trying to do something sort of new.
@dang69 Given the reactions I've seen to BOTW - too difficult in the early game, too different from the classic formula, too much modification of the dungeon (shrine) puzzle format - I wonder if some in Nintendo feel they're damned if they do, damned if they don't. (I'd love to sit in on such discussions!) Is the Paper Mario fandom more "hardcore" (dedicated, opinionated, specific in its demands) than the Zelda crowd? I'm asking as an outside observer.
@Giygas_95 Sorry, I can't speak to that. Haven't played any other FE entries, but for a complete newbie it was a lot of fun, and the storypathing was super interesting. That said, considering my first run was close to 100 hours, it's daunting to consider replaying 3+ times to see all the story outcomes...
@Wexter The battle system in Shadows of Adam has auto-replenishing 'mana' (AP) encouraging you to use special attacks constantly with little penalty. It's probably the most I've used specials in a JRPG ever, as well as items. Made for much more interesting core gameplay loop, and I actually (think) I've seen all the abilities in action. In fact, some bosses (particularly sidequest) require you to stack buffs and debuffs because they auto-heal so much.
@shazbot It does look like fun, but I've heard the combat doesn't take center stage as much as it used to. I would still like to play it though.
it doesn't sound good for a revival of an expensive series that doesn't earn revenue
@NEStalgia Fascinating. I cannot see how Paper Mario would be particularly expensive to make. My understanding is that a large number of art assets, graphical effects, gameplay systems, complicated audio design et cetera inflate the cost of game development. If you can say more, please do!
Also, how is it Intelligent Systems, the makers of much lauded Fire Emblem still can't figure out how to make a good battle system for Paper Mario?
Hahahaha. Excellent point.
@NEStalgia There were comments above yours about 1) the serial nature of Yoshi world gimmicks - yarn, wool, papercraft; 2) introducing more action-based sequences. I wonder if a more physics-based approach to combat with Paper Mario would be more interesting. I mean, paper cuts, doesn't it?
Looks graphically-impressive and also charming and unique. Those points alone though won't sell me on it. I played all the way through Color Splash - the flaws in the battle system, and lack of progression really took the oomph out of the experience, for me.
I'm normally one of those people who like a deviation for a game series. I really enjoyed Three Houses in Fire Emblem, and I felt like Super Paper Mario was as nice break for the series.
In this case though, I feel like a more "traditional" RPG would've been a better move. Then again, Paper Mario is in kinda the situation bands like Metallica are in. People want another "Justice for all" or "Ride the Lightning", but they're going to release some experimental stuff instead. Then again, it's hard to blame them because it's not really honest and real if they're just phoning in fan service.
I hope people enjoy this game. If fans are enjoying the new direction of the Paper Mario series, that's cool with me. I still want it to be successful. I'm just saying that personally, I might try something else. The general disdain for the battle system is enough to push me away.
Reading the review/pros/cons - sounds more like a 7/10. But this is a Nintendo website so +1!!
I haven’t had much to do with paper Mario. I tried to get an old GC copy of 1000 year door to try on the Wii but couldn’t easily get my hand on one. But if the combat mechanic is broken, this seems pretty big to me, you would think this is a significant part of the game. Anyway, regardless of scores, this review mirrors a couple of the others I’ve looked at and people should decide to play or skip based on the words rather than score. Buuut a score is basically TL;DR for a review
@Crono1973
Nope
"There’s nothing worse than a companion who won’t shut up..."
Flashbacks intensify.
@COVIDberry It's actually Mario & Luigi that AlphaDrem said had high development costs and low returns. I would think paper mario is even more expensive to make with higher quality assets and similar story writing, while M&L had sprite based graphics, though M&L had much larger level design and a fleshed out RPG system. Still, paper mario sees higher sales, and has a full budget as an internal studio, while AlphaDream was a small shop mostly under Nintendo contract, so their idea of "high cost" might be 1/5 what Intelligent Systems thinks of as modest!
Super Paper Mario had tried the more action oriented battles. For the most part it worked well! Ironically the current awkward systems it's likely an attempt to placate fan desire for "classic" paper mario while still making it more accessible than an RPG.
It's a tough spot though. Nintendo didn't really intended to not have any Mario RPG, they just didn't want two. AlphaDreams closure rattled the rpg side. Maybe Nintendo will still make M&L series games with a new company. They still have the franchise. But Alpha had guys from Square that made it really "work"... You would think Intelligent would be ideal for picking that up, too.
It's a fun game, people will pick it because of that. "Purists" can get tons of boring JRPG's in the eShop. This game is on for a good time.
The Paper Mario 64 and the 1000 year Door were very enjoyable, unfortunately the games Nintendo has released since have not been as engaging or charming.
Such an epic comments section! For some reason I've been laughing and enjoying it. All the stuff about what garbage this Paper Mario game is, how Nintendo is destroying themselves with this release, etc! I've been part of the carnival of negativity before too (mostly with frame rate complaints, of course), so it's nice to laugh at myself at the same time in a way. The only thing missing from this comments peanut gallery is politics. Isn't there anything about Origami King that pisses anyone off relating to politics?!
(I like the review and appreciated the follow up comments by Chris)
@Crono1973,
Of course: If you love it, let it be heard. And to all the haters: By now you guys must realize your hate doesn't change a thing. Nintendo keeps going on this path!
@Wexter,
Yeah, a crazy world we live in.
I'm fine with it not being an RPG, so I'm really stoked. The game looks utterly charming and funny. Have a voucher left, gonna use.
Also, King Olly is such a Christo, wrapping that castle.
This sounds more like a 5/10 game, according to this review. I still hope that one day Nintendo realize that people want a game like the first two again.
@RareFan
Is that so? I don't, and I'm " people" too. You can't speak for everyone. The complaining about almost every game that releases these days is nothing new. The internet is filled with people that are not happy with games. TLoU part II, Zelda BotW, Super Mario Odyssey, Animal Crossing NH ect.ect... If I believe everybody that complains on the internet, no game should ever be played ever..... They all suck...
There is a whole world outside of internet were people enjoy the games and don't waste time on sites to complain about everything and moaning that older games were better.
@scully1888
I do understand you wanting people to read it in full, but personally I prefer the bullet point preview at the end. This is due to not wanting to know too much about the game and happy to gleen what I need to know from that summary. Certainly not meant to upset the writer but works for the way I like it.
After having watched the new battle system extensively, I don't think it's for me, unfortunately. I don't want to miss out on the rest of the game though... I guess I'll wait for a sale...
@timp29 I really enjoyed the last one on the 3DS, was my first paper mario and immmediately fell in love with it. I don't think this game's battlesystem is for me.
Not trying to get on the Rage and Kudos to anyone looking forward for the game but as I love the RPG entries in the series I Will skip this One as I am voting with my wallet and let Nintendo know this is not the game I want
@doctorhino Paper Mario are niche games sales wise lately. I don't care if they change the formula. If you want the same thing over and over then go away.
@Cyrax77
People want something new, but that doesn't mean that you have to throw out everything that made the games so enjoyable. This is the reason why Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts failed. Rare just abandoned everything that made Banjo-Kazooie so great. With Paper Mario it is the same thing.
@commentlife 40 year old man children complaining it wasn’t what they wanted, it’s so boring blah blah blah. God people are so needy these days. I always respect people’s opinions, but when they force it like it’s a fact I can’t stand it.
It's too bad a lot of Nintendo games never drop in price until they're released on the "Nintendo Select" name. I wouldn't mind getting this if it was like $25 or so.
Hell, I'm still waiting for Xenoblade Chronicles 2 to drop on price, but it never does.
I commented in 3 different places yesterday about how the reviews have turned me off. The game is now downloading on my switch and i wish it was tomorrow lol
@Dethmunk
Innovation alone doesn't make the final product great by default. People have the right to critisize this game. Sure, it's early for that since most of us haven't played this yet. What I'm seeing is that people want to go back to traditional mechanics (that could be made even better) now that Mario & Luigi series is essentially dead. In a few weeks, there will be a lot more comments of this game by users that have actually completed this game.
If this game is good or even then... that's great. I just lost faith for Paper Mario after Sticker Star and Color Splash.
@doctorhino I love RPGs in spite of the bad experience point systems that many have. And games don’t need experience points to be RPGs.
If it's only good for the visuals and story I can just watch a let's play.
@roboshort Experience is the main progression system in rpgs. You might be thinking of adventure games. Even if they dont' show you explicit points, like Skyrim, it still uses them
@Hobbesyall Animal Crossing
They should've just added confetti bag scraps and enemy cards like they did in color splash, for me that was enough incentive to keep battling. The heart upgrades could've been given as rewards for beating bosses and the hearts given by toads could be replaced by badges or coins.
@Henmii Of course: If you love it, let it be heard. And to all the haters: By now you guys must realize your hate doesn't change a thing.
I see, only those who love it should be heard.
@Apportal I always respect people’s opinions
Ok.
40 year old man children complaining it wasn’t what they wanted, it’s so boring blah blah blah. God people are so needy these days.
Uh, I thought you said you respect people's opinions?
I took a chance on this series back on the Wii and was underwhelmed. I wouldn’t mind trying this one if it gets cheap (like a selects release), but I’m in no rush.
@Crono1973 I do respect their opinions. I don’t like it when they state it as a fact. Why does everyone hate me for saying I like this game?
@Apportal Do you mean they don't say 'in my opinion' in every post. All sides do that.
@Crono1973 I don’t think I’ve been clear so I apologize.
I mean this. People haven’t played the game yet, and they’re already hating it. Counting their eggs before they hatch per se. I’m not praising it. I’m just not hating it. But what really annoys me is how people hate the game and hate me for not hating it as well. In all honesty, this game is probably the one I’m least excited for after all the other games. But I don’t hate on it. The developers worked hard on it, whether the fans like it or not. Thank you for your concern. I’m sorry if I sounded rude. In no way did I ever mean it to sound that way. I hope you enjoy your gaming. 😊
@Apportal People have played the previous two games and so they know what to expect from this one as well. People know what they wanted and now that the reviews are out, they know that this one is more like the previous two instead of what they wanted.
On the flip side there are people saying that it looks like fun and those who are pre-ordering it based on the idea that they will like it. Those people also haven't played it yet.
I don't understand why only the 'haters' are told quiet down until they have played it.
@Crono1973 but that’s exactly it! Even though they have played the last 2, they might have an idea of what it is, but they don’t exactly know. It could turn out to be an amazing journey.
And I think the haters are told to “quiet down” is because hating is annoying. Just simply saying “this game is looks fun” isn’t, well at least in my opinion, bad at all.
@Apportal Sounds like a double standard to me, only the 'haters' have to play it before judging it. Everyone else can base their opinions off of their knowledge of the previous two games and the reviews.
"People have played the previous two games and so they know what to expect from this one as well. People know what they wanted and now that the reviews are out, they know that this one is more like the previous two instead of what they wanted.
On the flip side there are people saying that it looks like fun and those who are pre-ordering it based on the idea that they will like it. Those people also haven't played it yet."
You've answered your own query there, those who've played SS and CS and didn't like it have some knowledge that they won't like OK, but if that's true then people like me who played CS and enjoyed it also know that OK is similar, therefore i know pretty much that i'll enjoy this one, hence why i pre-ordered it.
Honestly i can see why so many people are hesitant over the newer games, Sticker Star was such a huge mistake and a disappointment but i truly believe Colour Splash was a huge improvement over it, i feel like most people who dismiss it never actually played it, they just assume it was Sticker Star 2, when it really wasn't, sales figures show that very few people actually did buy it. I reckon long-term fans of the series would actually be shocked if they tried CS or OK and actually end up enjoying them for the most part.
@doctorhino No. I’m not thinking of adventure games. There are other leveling mechanisms out there. Off the top of my head, Final Fantasy Legend has the monster which levels up by eating meat or the robot which equips new parts. BOTW uses the shrines as a leveling system. Though that is still kind of an experience system, just implemented differently... Most experience systems are broken cause they encourage grinding. Skyrim tried to get around this by having enemies scale with you, but that is broken too.
@roboshort breath of the wild is not an RPG, it's an adventure game.
It's ok dude, but for real if you hate experience systems than you are not a fan of RPGs. Pretty much if you think leveling up is stupid because it could lead to grinding than you don't like RPGs.
@Crono1973 you are right. In fact, while reading my points I realized how stupid I sounded. In the end, I’ll just let people do what they want. I won’t let myself decide for them. Happy gaming mate 😊
RPG, Aventure game,.... Who cares, just ENJOY the games, guys!! I don't care if Zelda is an ARPG or just an adventure game, I love it anyway. This thread looks more and more terrible. Stop with that, already! If you only want another TTYD, go get Bug Fables!
What we want to see is people that are playing this game alteady to give us their impressions. That's what I care about, real opinions.
Not people that haven't touched the game complaining only because they've read it doesn't have exp points, so it's not a RPG, so it's pure garbage...
@the_beaver dude the game isn't even out yet...
@doctorhino I respect you. We clearly have different views on this game, but I respect your opinion. Props for being rather chill in this thread.Though I can name a few really good RPG games without a traditional EXP System.
Chrono Cross is a rather good example of a game without an EXP system. You get small stat boosts at the end of the battle, but they aren't tied to a progression system. They're borderline unnoticeable and the game will even cut you off on Stat-Boosts once you cap at specific points in progression until you beat the next boss. You only really "Level UP" at the end of a boss fight where the game gives you a massive stat boost and new slots to put in Spells and Items in battle.
Another game I can think of is The Last Remnant. That game while having a Level Up system actually actively works against you grinding. The game has a hidden scale in the background that will actually make enemies and bosses more difficult depending on your Battle Rank. Much like Chrono Cross the game does not give EXP, it gives stat-boosts and loot to help with progression. The trick in the game is to manipulate the stat-boosts while trying to keep your Battle Rank low. But, if you have a higher Battle Rank you will get better loot so there is a rick and reward element. It's a really cool mechanic and actually is a reason a lot of Casual RPG players struggle with the game as it actually gets harder the more you grind. Kinda sneaky.
@Wexter yeah I wasn't trying to get on such an off topic rant it just seemed like a ludacrious thing to argue against the existence of in RPGs. Almost on par with the argument that you love platformers but hate 2d platformers. Yeah you love a certain kind but you are not a fan of the whole genre and are really cutting out some of the best games in it to say that.
This whole thing seems dumb now anyways, games are getting way too complex for single genre labels so just play what you want and call it whatever, it's all about what sells.
In any case I still like adventure games and rgpish adventure games. There are card based rpgish games that fall in the middle too so it can get blurred.
@Crono1973,
That's not what I meant. If I don't like certain decisions in a game, I mention it. And if it happens in the game after, I mention it again. But when I realize that the series won't change course I stop complaining and move on. I get the feeling that many people complain whenever a new title in the series arrive, and they keep doing it over and over again (1 post, 2 posts, 3 posts). Its completely pointless and everyone could see this happening from a mile away (no xp, regular enemies, toads overload). My point is: Just mention your disgust once, then start playing something you like.
Thinking about it, what if breath of the wild 2 doesn't dungeons? Many people expect them, but there's no proof yet. Oh, I fear lots of pitch-forks in the air...
@doctorhino Yes, it is haha. And yesterday many people got it as well.
@TG16_IS_BAE "the information isn’t out of your reach"
I know, I asked the questions here and you gave me the only answer that really mattered, 30 hours. Though it does seem off, downright wrong even, that Nintendo made a game based on spinning circles to line up your opponents and they didn't even put in touch screen support for the circles. Even Nintendo doesn't fully support their own hardware anymore.
Wow over 400 comments in this thread, that's alotta Mario woohoo!!
@rjejr I found the answer in 5 seconds on google. I’m trying to let you know how easy that is, try reaching out a bit.
This has become the article with most comments in 1 day
Got it last night. 'Yay! whimsy whimsy whimsy...whoa the Origami King is a bit dark...whimsy whimsy...ooo first combat (massive sounds of brakes, grinding gears, smashing machinery, collapsing hopes and dreams)....yeah the combat system reeks from a first impression...like how the heck did this idea of twisting circles ever strike anyone as fun, Im not sure...early days but yeah...as the review hints...the combat REEEKS
@doctorhino RPGs are about choice in character progression and growth. Experience points are one way to implement that... but definitely not the only way.
BOTW has a lot of choice in terms of character progression so I'd definitely say it's an RPG, but it's a little more questionable for other entries in the series (besides Zelda 2)... And lots of single player games these days mix role playing with action, strategy, exploration, adventure etc.
Also, I just happened to see a video on YouTube that there is actually something like XP in BOTW, but it is hidden.
@sanderev I think saying the last of us 2 is “Utter trash” probably invalidates any of your gaming related opinions. Your must be one of those incel weirdos who are “offended “ by certain aspects of the storyline. That game is a masterpiece
@TG16_IS_BAE Like this? 😉
@IronMan30 For what it's worth after playing for the first time last night for several hours I actually really enjoy the combat. I don't understand the people saying battle is slow. I can do most battles in about 20 to 30 seconds, which is faster than most RPG systems. I think people who don't like it may just not grasp it or not be fans of puzzles. Either way it's super fun in my opinion and I hope people don't miss out on a great game without playing and deciding for themselves.
@Hask My feelings exactly. I also didn't care for SPM.
@roboshort well I am not going to tell you what to like or play, there are plenty of amazing adventure games or RPGs or whatever you want to consider them and BOTW is one of them. Basically this has been a debate for a very long time about adventure vs rpg but I love grinding. It lets me set my own pace for a game and put in a little extra work where I want to make things easier. It may feel restrictive to some but to me it opens up the game to play at the difficulty and speed I want. Not everyone has to agree with that but for me it's something I have always liked having the option to do. And I grew up on psx RPGs so that probably contributed to my opinions on what the most pure form of an RPG is.
@SeerCoot There's no difference. A score out of five is just a score out of 10 halved. This is an 8/10 so it would be a 4/5. It would still get the same reaction.
@SeerCoot I gave it 8. That's the score I think is fair. If I didn't think it was worth as much as that I'd have given it a 7.
@SeerCoot With respect, I've been doing this gig for a while. If I thought a 7 was fair, I'd have given it a 7. But I didn't. I think it's an 8.
You're perfectly within your rights to tell me you disagree (once you've played through it, of course). But telling me you disagree and telling me I'm wrong are two very different things, and the latter isn't appropriate by definition.
@SeerCoot I prefer to rely on my own 35 years of experience, thanks. I rate games based on how much fun I had with them: I had a lot of fun with this one. You may wish I'd given it a 7 but I'm perfectly happy with my score. I don't know what you're alluding to when it comes to "my colleagues" but it doesn't matter regardless: my score is my opinion, nobody else's. I feel it's rather patronising to have someone try to lecture me on how to do this job, so I'm going to respectfully stop debating this with you.
@SeerCoot Given your tone, I can safely say that will never happen.
@scully1888 but he isn't really being rude and he does have a good point.
Your review is well written until you get to the score. I genuinely thought it was a 6 or at best a 7 but when I saw 8 I was somewhat surprised.
You seemed to touch on the negatives but didn't really reflect that in the final score.
Sorry to get involved but I just call it how I see it.
@scully1888 @SeerCoot @Razer man, you wrote the review and many people are just saying that the writing doesn't feel like it lines up with the score. It's not some hideous insult to your experience or method. It's one review and people are airing their feelings on it. Honestly if it works you up this much maybe you should be the kind of person who writes a review and runs away. It's a video game review on the internet, not the Canterbury Tales.
@Razer I'm sorry, but he is being rude. I have no issue with someone interpreting the review differently, but when someone starts going down the "you and I both know it's not right" and the "it hurts when you're wrong, doesn't it" route, that's crossing the line from respectful debate into either accusations of wrongdoing (in the case of the former) or belittling "we've already established you're wrong and now I bet you feel stupid" rhetoric (the latter). There are hundreds of comments under this review and a number of them disagree with the score: that's completely understandable with such a divisive game, so I've let the vast majority go without reply. But I'm proud of my work and draw a line at someone not simply disagreeing with me, but attempting to explain that I've objectively made a mistake and doing so in such a patronising tone. Manners cost nothing.
I am a little perplexed that this game is only getting an average of about an 8 on review websites. I think it's fantastic, and the best in the series, and I have played them all.
First of all, the presentation, environments, and graphics are superb. It has such a unique and detailed look. The designers should be commended with their creativity to give each object a paper look with wonderful textures. The details inside the buildings make the world seem lived-in and helps bring it to life. I can't imagine how much programming was involved just to get the paper filling the holes to look realistic. I think it's unfair to call this aspect of the game not worthwhile, as it's fun to find all of the holes, and you get a sense of accomplishment as you fill each one.
A lot of talk has been made about the combat system, but I find it enjoyable, as the circle adds a puzzle dimension to each battle. It may seem a tad repetitive, but it's unique, never boring, and it certainly isn't worth taking a point away from the final review score of this game.
If this game was an exclusive on any other system, it would get a 10. For me, this game needs much praise, as it's rare these days to get a complete great game with terrific music, superb graphics, and fun and tight gameplay. Every environment has a unique look, and it's pure joy to discover what the designers came up with next in their paper world. I have enjoyed every minute while playing this game. I give it a solid 10.
@scully1888 I’m sorry you get so much hate for just doing your job. These trolls haven’t even played the game so they don’t know what they’re taking about. I have, and I think you’re review was good.
@PocketQ3 exactly! this is more like a Zelda-themed Paper Mario, than a pseudoRPG Paper Mario game
I actually do not understand why there is so much hate about the timer in the battle system. It is just that your turn ends, you won't loose the battle or something. You do not have to line up the enemies perfectly in the first try because there is GAME OVER otherwise....
This game is really different to the previous games, isn't it? Some parts are really similar to Color Splash (it's more of legacy than inspiration), but there were also some aspects that brought to mind the best aspects of the first three games: excellent characterization, variation, depth, close moments, and other things as well. There is also a higher focusing on collectibles than ever, and that is also something that brings it closer to the first three in fact, these games had Star Pieces, recipes and Catch Cards to make for full exploration, while this game has folded Toads, trophies and models. It also brings back the ever-present sidequests in the Great Sea, though it's a bit different from TTYD's Trouble Center.
I was also glad no part of the game ever reminded me of Sticker Star (apart from the Fan appearing on Bonehead Island), unlike how Color Splash really was inspired by that previous game.
You know what? It feels like Paper Mario finally escaped out of Sticker Star's roots and has now focused on their best effort on making something new here. With Bowser and everyone else being with Mario's side and the return of Toad Town, this is the closest to a Paper Mario that can be included in the original trilogy continuity.
And while the battle system is also something new, the puzzle-solving focus on it has some mixed results when dealing with enemies. But the boss battles are definitely the major improvement compared to the previous two. In those, you just needed the correct thing item and then the battle will be completely easy, otherwise it will be almost impossible (Sticker Star) to literally IMPOSSIBLE (Color Splash) to win. Here, boss battles need pure skill in puzzle solving and also have much more strategy focus on the later battles. So, the boss battles are definitely one of the best aspects, but for the normal enemies, if you want a challenge similar to the two first Paper Mario games, I suggest to not solve the puzzle and simply eliminate the enemies using what you have while also giving you some self-imposed challenges such as skipping the HP-Up hearts (which are the same as leveling up in this game).
But there's also the story and while it is adorable and has much more depth there than the story of SS and CS, it should've been explored much more in the end. I wish the story could've been explored more, that's it. Heck, I don't know if it's a spoiler, but you NEVER fight against Bowser at all in this game!
Overall, this game is so unique in the series that If they ever want to expand the gameplay again, it would probably be in the form of DLC, as I don't know what they are gonna do next for the series. Hopefully a remake, though...
Enjoying the game!
Beautiful game, although the battle system as creative as it may seem, ruins the game for me.
Constantly pressing R+L and not working fluid with a time limit got me pissed off.
@Apportal did you just say this game is worse than freaking Sticker Star?
If that's how you feel, more power to you, but it's a bit unpopular in that regard. Color Splash, maybe, and the furst 3 games, for sure, but SS?
This was a very tedious game. It's finished (thank goodness), but this is one that I will never play again. The battle system was repetitive and tiresome, and I groaned out loud every time a fight started.
Glad I listened to my instincts and got this on sale.
I actually had this one pre-ordered and played it on release day and the following weekend. At that time, I felt that the battle system was exhausting and the graphics were more along the N64 era. I was very disappointed that this was nothing like TTYD and also even more disappointed that this was no longer an RPG. I recently picked this back up from my backlog to give a second chance and I am somewhat addicted. I still feel like the battle system is tiresome and wish this would have been the normal RPG from years past; however, I feel like once you get to Shogun Studios, the game is more enjoyable. The graphics look okay now that I am playing it primarily handheld on my new Switch Lite and I get that it is supposed to be origami style (no idea how I didn't think about that previously - but I enjoyed TTYD art style more). I really enjoy the humor and trying to find the toads hidden in each area is a fun distraction. I hear that the battle system is a bit more streamlined later in the game and that's really the only thing keeping me going. I love a good puzzle but these battles are ridiculous with this odd battle system. I feel like this game is probably around an 8/10 but I am going to wait until I finish the game before leaving a proper number rating. If you were like me and set this one to the side, I highly recommend sticking it out to Shogun Studios to see if you are enjoying the game by then.
Just finished! As it was the first Paper Mario title I finished since the cross series game Paper Jam, I honestly enjoyed the laugh out loud dialogue & story. Just like everyone else thee only thing id change would be the battle system! Becomes a tad bit redundant after 30+ hours. Can’t wait to play the OG with N64 Expanded Pass!!
@jhvoorhies Did you happen to finish the game? If so, what are your final impressions?
@Jiggies no. I love paper mario, but the battles were extremely annoying and time consuming. I hope they remove these unnecessary battle mechanics in future entries.
@jhvoorhies I skipped this game when it came out and I'm thinking of getting it since I loved the original, TYD and Super Paper Mario, but I'm not really sure. Thanks for the reply!
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