In the same VGC interview where Kensuke Tanabe said Nintendo wouldn't ignore casual players, the Paper Mario: The Origami King producer touched on the creative restrictions tied to the Paper Mario series - when asked about what it takes to design a new character (and villain, for that matter) to stand alongside the all-time greats like Bowser and Kamek.
Kensuke Tanabe: Since Paper Mario: Sticker Star, it’s no longer possible to modify Mario characters or to create original characters that touch on the Mario universe. That means that if we aren’t using Mario characters for bosses, we need to create original characters with designs that don’t involve the Mario universe at all, like we’ve done with Olly and the stationery bosses.
Whether a character becomes an all-time hit or not isn’t up to us on the development side; I think it’s more the case that characters that fans truly accept naturally end up that way. I hope that the origami siblings in Paper Mario: The Origami King will stay in players’ memories, even if they do only end up appearing in this title.
This suggests certain characters that modify existing ones are essentially off-limits and new ones created need to be original. There's no guarantee new characters will make more than one appearance, either.
Tanabe previously touched on these guidelines in an Iwata Asks interview about Paper Mario: Sticker Star - highlighting how Shigeru Miyamoto told him to complete this particular entry with Super Mario World characters, and noting how "strict" the rules were in regards to new characters (thanks, Nintendo Enthusiast):
Aside from wanting us to change the atmosphere a lot, there were two main things that Miyamoto-san said from the start of the project—"It's fine without a story, so do we really need one?" and "As much as possible, complete it with only characters from the Super Mario world.
But being unable to use new characters is pretty strict. Of course, we could not make any new enemy characters, and as for allies among the Super Mario characters, there's really only Toad in various colors!
So, there you go - consider this a reminder as to why the Paper Mario series is much more traditional nowadays. What do you think about this design decision? Leave a comment down below.
This is a terrible excuse after having Odyssey come before it. That game has soooo much original characters and modifications. Heck, they even let you change Mario’s appearance!!!
now that's downright awful why would he do that to the series. its not like people play the series entirely because of the combat the story is what enraptures the people to stay.
Well that's *****.
Very lame. Very lame, indeed!
It does stifle creativity a bit, but I agree that Goombario and the other modified characters seem a bit out of place in the Mario universe. I’ve always regarded them as one-off spin-offs.
Honestly, that seems like a cop-out to me. Goombella, Koops, Bow, Lakilester... all iconic characters to many of us. Goomba, Koopa Troopa, Boo, Lakitu... sure, they’re more recognisable, but bland. And then there are the likes of the Shadow Sirens and Flurrie — we’ve not seen designs like those before and now they’re saying we never will again?
How can game designers be so arrogant about what it is their audience should be given? They know unique characters and designs go well, so... what’s their actual excuse for ignoring us?
Yeah, this was making the rounds for Sticker Star, too. In a way? I get it. TTYD and SPM introduced a mafia, heaven and hell, all kinds of things, good and bad. Sonic levels of edge, frankly, and I'm sort of thankful for the rule.
But it's equally poor show to restrict the game's design so hard that you suck all of the intrigue out of it. And hypocritical given the Mario and Luigi series, which is the reason I wanna know what company politics are really behind that rule.
Right or wrong, I don't believe Miyamoto for one second when he tries to say that he's not a table-flipper or never detested DKC/hated Rosalina. He's just trying to keep Mario/LoZ's parent company and production in a Disney-esque positive light.
@Bruh I wonder if it's a restriction that only applies to games that aren't fully "in house," like the Intelligent Systems Paper Mario series, but not to a true first-party game like Odyssey.
Still seems really short-sighted and hampering to the game's quality, though. It's not like the companions in any of the other Paper Mario games were damaging to the Mario IP (especially since most were just individualized versions of established enemy "species" anyway).
I could see this restriction applying more to something like the Mario & Sonic at the Olympics games or the Rabbids Kingdom Battle game, but it's weird for something like this where is an original story set it the Mario universe.
I wonder if it's related to Vivian in TTYD?
Wha-? What kind of rule is this? This genuinely baffles me. Part of the charm of the old partner characters WERE that they were new to the Mario mythos or a new take on how old characters/enemies looked. But I guess that means no more Koops or Goombella or Mohawk Yoshi.
@RhiannonRune Ahhh you might have a point. It's possible that they didn't like how they handled Vivian's identity.
@Magrane That's why they're in the spin-offs and not the main series.
That same Paper Mario producer is also full of crap.
Tanabe is the same guy that handled the last few Chibi Robo games, so you can imagine how that went down.
it’s no longer possible to modify Mario characters or to create original characters that touch on the Mario universe.
...said Kensuke Tanabe, producer of Luigi's Mansion 3
I hate you, Tanabe. The half dozen games you produced that I love do not make up for you being an idiotic tone deaf hack. Seriously you blame the fans over a flawed Club Nintendo survey from 13 years ago instead of taking responsibility for what YOU want.
It was immediately clear once they showed trailers in which all the Mario cast were stock and barrel molded carbon copies of the series' mainstays. Still, ugh. It's hard to accept this lack of identity in a company that sells creative experiences.
Disturbing to find that same perverse logic is twisted so deep into the ethos of character design, as if Sticker Star had no impact whatsoever.
"Since Paper Mario: Sticker Star, it’s no longer possible to modify Mario characters or to create original characters that touch on the Mario universe. That means that if we aren’t using Mario characters for bosses, we need to create original characters with designs that don’t involve the Mario universe at all, like we’ve done with Olly and the stationery bosses".
Are they still following one of the same guidelines that helped ruin the reputation of the Paper Mario series?
Why even make these games then, in this genre? It doesn't work, this sort of game is supposed to be story driven, that mandate kills such a thing. Focus the time wasted on games like this on something more interesting that doesn't have those shackles. Or just make more passable and generic NSMB games that have an interesting art style. Nintendo sabotaging itself again.
@Brydontk I doubt it's quite that simple, as I recall Vivian's character was more overtly... suggestive in the Japanese version. Which would seem to be the one most suitable to the approval of its audience, unless there was an uprising in Nintendo's home country as well. The version we received was more enigmatic than sexual, especially when compared to Flurrie. Who seemed to be a simple caricature but ofc the fans went bonkers (honkers?) with that one as well.
@PipeGuy64Bit I think his hands are tied and he's being polite to the overlords while also trying to let us know what's going on due to the reaction this got.
They are some quite ridiculous restrictions, I've heard this a few times about Miyamoto and how controlling he can be, the man's a legend but he's not always right. I guess this series will never return to the quality of the N64 game or Thousand Year Door
@Bruh i think the point is only the main Mario team (working on the big 3D or side scrolling series) gets to create derivates and do modifications. Teams working on side content are stuck.
What confuses me is the mobile Doctor Mario, that has created quite a few Doctor variations of characters, like Doctor tower of goombas
@Tharsman None of the "doctors" in Doctor Mario World are real doctors (besides Doctor Luigi of course)
Sounds like bs to me. Still you can never be sure that is the case
@carlos82 I believe Miyamoto gave similar advice to Alphadream when they were developing Dream Team and that game ended up fine in terms of characters, plot (albeit it was weaker compared to previous entries) and world building. So it's not like Miyamoto had the final say it's just that Tanabe took his advice the wrong way.
FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLSSSS, Why just why F***.
@Dang69 But that doesn't explain how Luigi's Mansion 3 brought back the portrait ghost concept since he produced that game too.
What's the harm in tweaking existing Mario-universe designs with new character traits? Honestly that seems less harmful to the lore than creating brand new characters
So that explains the pathetic copy-and-paste nature of these recent Paper Mario games. What the hell kind of moronic rule is that?! So Toadsworth, for example, is no longer allowed and they all HAVE TO be generic toads. Where's Nintendo's innovation?
@PipeGuy64Bit In Japan there's a cultural believing that the elder age have a higher status than someone like Tanabe that looks like 40-50 years. So I wouldn't discard the possibility of they agreeing with Miyamoto due to his status of age.
Regarding Luigi's Mansion 3, I think they returned because either Miyamoto approve it (its unusual but sometimes he does approve, like with Mario + Rabbits) or because what Shuntaro Furukawa said about Miyamoto. From what I remember he said "Now here's a producer I have a lot of respect name Shigeru Miyamoto. Unfortunately that just can't be it, so I expect to said what needs to be said to run the company". That quote can be see in a YouTube video of Arlo.
I don't get it. I really don't. One of the reasons the first Paper Mario games are beloved is that they give us a different take on the Mario universe, one that has a lot more detail and personality. It's a freaking spin-off, that's part of the appeal.
Uggh. Talk about paper cuts. This cuts me deep.
Well, that's disappointing. Really comes off as a direct message to those of us that may be waiting for a "return to form" for the series to move on.
@N1ntendodo Let's not forget about Federation Force.
@PipeGuy64Bit most all the enemies in that game look the same tho
@PipeGuy64Bit Luigi's Mansion 3 was made by Next Level Games, a developer in Vancouver. Maybe Tanabe's role was fundamentally different for that game, or perhaps the portrait ghosts were seen as entirely outside of those rules? I think I read somewhere that Miyamoto really liked Polterpup, so that might be why. I still think the ghosts in Luigi's Mansion 3 felt really outside the Mario universe, though.
As much as I respect Miyamoto and Nintendo, I can't agree with those rules. Hope they change their minds eventually.
What a horrible decision. What ever happened to giving people what they want?
@HorseRenoir Yeah, but it can't be a spin-off if it's one of your major outings. And I think that's what's at play here. For instance, you wouldn't see a Pokémon games with creatures that aren't Pokémon.
@Kalmaro You can't give everyone what they want. I, for one, agree that a game in the Mario universe should use characters from that universe.
That’s utterly pathetic. Why limit the series this way when it’s been objectively worse since Sticker Star?
@sanderev my problem is that they won't modify existing characters. I loved some of the guys they made in the past but now everyone has to look the same.
Koops was legit and who didn't love the Great Gonzales?
what an awful philosophy to have, i dont understand why this is a rule they still enforce for the series. its what made the past games so beloved and made the world feel so alive, so they cant even gives toads hair? or even reference older game enemies? its such a pointless limitations
@MagicEmperor Completely off topic, but can I just say I love the name and avatar. Lunar is a super under appreciated game!
I bet I could come up with an awesome premise that would please both old fans and new with those restrictions.
“Miyamoto-san said from the start of the project—"It's fine without a story, so do we really need one?"
Wait...what?! Has Miyamoto forgotten this is a Paper Mario game? The game series that was originally titled Super Mario RPG 2? What is an RPG with no story?
So, Miyamoto rules over Nintendo's IP with an iron fist. Next up on the news: water is wet.
Wow. What an utterly ridiculous and baffling thing to find out. And although I already knew that this new game would contain more of both the bland and out-of-place things that the last couple games had, it's still disappointing to hear - especially since the new game will be arriving tomorrow for me. (I'll still enjoy a lot of it, of course - no doubt. But I like many others will always long for the kind of fascinating characters and stories found in the older games, like TTYD and SPM, my favorites in the series.)
Well said. Exactly how I feel.
@SmileMan64 If what Shuntaro said about "...I expect to said that needs to to be said to run the company." is true, then there's still some hope that he demands that the series return to being rpg.
They perhaps are looking for an idea that he can use for multiple games, while being something that sells decently. Though the question is, what game or idea will Miyamoto likes enough that catches his attention?
Self-imposed limitations are their excuse now?
I want this game to flop, but then I remember it's on Switch. I will not be putting my money towards these guys anymore.
@Bruh If you look at the designs, Odyssey followed the exact same rules this game is.
I'm wary people are only angry because its being pointed out. Because it's barely a restriction if they're allowed to create new characters. It just means they can't give certain characters a like Koopa a bigger beak or Cheep Cheep extra fins.
Justice for Rawk Hawk!
And this is one of my biggest issues with the IP today. This is almost as bad a decision from Miyamoto as WiiMusic. Removed the heart and soul of the game, replaced it with a million awful Toads. Must be frustrating for the devs knowing people want TYD but having everything that made that what it was strictly off-limits.
Miyamoto: A hero, isn't he? Totally without faults (sarcasm)!
But seriously, who is responsible for this (Miyamoto might be instructed from above) is a total a..hole. I say it again: All the people looooove original characters. They give the games spice. We hate to see the same, boring regular characters over and over again. It shows that something is completely WRONG at Nintendo! Oh, and why using the villains only one time. Wouldn't we all love to see count Bleck again? Or the X-nauts? Or Vaati and Yuga (to mention just 2 from the Zelda series)?
@Dr_Lugae But it makes no sense to apply the same ruleset to spin-offs that are mostly non-canon to the main series.
@Henmii Why don't you actually read the article and see they're allowed to make original characters, like they have in Origami King.
@Entrr_username The main series are barely canon to themselves. I think it makes sense to have consistency within the core characters across the franchise, so that different series don't end up feeling alien to each other.
I probably should have been more clear, I meant strange variations on old characters. A Goomba with a helmet (goombella), a bobomb with a moustache captains-hat (bobbery), a cellular goomba as a enemy (bowser's inside story), etc. Looking back at Color splash you only fight regular goomba's, koopa's etc. And the game is drowned with toads. I think that's a shame.
As for Origami king: There's the league of stationary, but those are just stationary. And I saw some origami beasts, I give them that.
I know Olly and Olivia are totally new characters too but we wil never see them again. I don't see why they only use the villains (Olly is a villain) one time, while they use Bowser and Ganondorf over and over and over again!
I guess Nintendo's "thinking" behind all this is: "If the characters look different people get confused. They don't know if its a Mario game anymore"
@Henmii sorry I mean the interview not the Nintendolife article. This game has a Goomba, Koopa and Snifit decked out in eastern themed gear. Toads with Angel Wings. Professor Toad in full archaeology gear.
Even this game has new forms of enemies in the Origami and Paper Mache enemies. Alongside the new characters (Olly, Olivia, Vellumentals, that talking tree, etc.).
This Nintendolife article is really badly written because their current restrictions wouldn't even really prevent many of the partner character designs the series has had as new characters. And they should know it, because they've just reviewed the game.
And I bet this is also why Birdo, Diddy Kong, and Funky Kong have been missing from Mario Kart 8.
At this point, Mario has just become a sea of generic and bland NPCs and characters. Even Fire Emblem makes an effort to help you tell everyone apart now.
That doesn't sound so bad actually. But I'll wait and see (haven't played it yet, of course).
@JR150 I mean they're in the mobile games
Yeah and so are characters like Dr. Baby Rosalina and Monty Mole. It's just annoying to see Paper Mario in particular gut what made it so enjoyable to begin with: The unique characters.
Games are better with a story. Some complexity is good, too much is risky, none can be good, but can be bad. RPGs should have stories, and games with repetitive battles should have experience and abilities added as you go, IMO.
I can understand that Nintendo want complete control of its characters, much like Disney does. And Paper Mario is what it is. But look what can be done; the excellent Mario + Rabbids is a good example. Take a new idea to Nintendo rather than change an existing one.
I also like the comment "It's fine without a story, so do we really need one?" No you don't need one.
To many games are bogged down with dialogue, and Japanese games don't transfer very well. The stories have a basic comic book mentally. And I can see the attraction that this has to some people, playing a game while reading a comic book story. If I want stories I read books and not while playing games.😮.
Of course interacting with characters to get clues, hints etc is fine. But Peach need rescued and Mario is the guy to do it. Great story, that's all you need.
It’s a real shame, especially as so many characters from other Paper Mario games had such great designs and personality. I mean, even my avatar is Doopliss from TTYD.
@KoopaTheQuick If that was the case then he wouldn't allow it anymore. Come up with better theories.
@Tharsman the docters do already exist somewhere in the Canon. Tower Goomba is from 3d world. Baby Wario is from yoshi Island ds.
That means this team should potentially be able to wiggle in the complete set of new things from odyssey. (unless they also have to stick to the Miyamoto vision of nothing beyond super mario world. )
It's an awfull rule, and one of the main reasons I hope Shiguru finally stops and takes that pension check! (another one is his involvement with decisions in the star fox department. And there's probably a lot more of I go look. )
And about the stories: We all know that Nintendo (and Miyamoto in particular) hate stories. A pity, I think it can really enhance the game if done right. Mario going to another "festival" in Paper Mario doesn't really cut it for me anymore (lol, nintendolife called this story "original").
@KoopaTheQuick You know Miyamoto was producer for the 1st two Paper Mario games?
Also that comment about Donkey Kong Country was debunked. Someone bought the magazine it was supposedly in and the quote wasn't there.
Ironically, Xenoblade Chronicles and Fire Emblem both have great, deeply rich stories and characters. It's why I love these franchises so much. It seems like these are the only Nintendo series left that are allowed to experiment and bring in a new cast of characters with each game anymore...
@SapphireBlaze Technically they could make a character like Doopliss again. New characters aren't off limits, they just can't give a Koopa two heads or something.
@Dr_Lugae the things they do in Origmai King with characters are not akin to what they did with them in the first two games. They do make some new characters and dress up old characters occasionally sure, but they are incredibly watered down versions of what they used to be.
There is no escaping this fact, pretty much every review has stated, NL's right off the bat, "this is not a Thousand Year Door return to form". Which not to say what it does doesn't have it's own merits, but it's inarguable that the imposed restraints are impacting the game and whether that's for better or worse is up to the individual. To continually ague that this is untrue is wilfully ignorant, it's right there in front of us in the results of the game, in all the reviews, in the past few games. Perhaps the nuances of what is an isn't allowed were lost in the translation of the statement, perhaps for political reasons they were emitted altogether, but it's different and it has been since Sticker Star. I don't believe they're lying about the imposed restrictions.
If that's something you're ok with and enjoy, more power to you! Honestly I wish I could enjoy it like I used too but TYD for me was one of those big impact, formative games. So for me there is a stark contrast I can't get past. That's fine too, it's just not for me anymore. It doesn't matter whether you agree with the changes or not, but you simply can't deny that they are there.
@KoopaTheQuick Good thing Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle exists to prove that you're just spouting bs. Do you even listen to yourself?
One could argue this explains why the later entries' depth has been ... paper-thin. 😎
Another reminder of why Miyamoto should leave developers alone. What a way to strangle creativity.
@ALazyUsername128 The series moved on a long time ago. Obviously Nintendo were not happy with the direction TTYD was taking the series, and Iargely agree: that game didn’t feel like a Mario game
@zool TTYD had an annoying amount of exposition text, so yeah I agree
@PoorGeno Having EXP rewarded means there will be EXP grind, and that’s not a good thing. What’s wrong with them trying to come up with a whole different way to battle? Shouldn’t battling be entertaining in itself?
Grinding is when leveling is done loosely or games' xp systems are stingy or imbalanced. Even fixed xp is a better solution than no xp battles. Want to see good fixed xp leveling? Mario + Rabbids is good fixed xp. Battling should be entertaining. It absolutely should, and the xp gains take a fun repeatable mechanic and make it matter dynamically. Mario RPG had very fun battles, or Rainslick Precipice of Darkness, or Xenoblade dx, or FF XV, or KH:CoM, or Ni No Kuni 2, but without xp, they're all full of battles which may as well be avoided. And this is a side note, but games w/o xp and with random encounters are
@New_Guest Mario games "bland"?
Yeah.. Super Mario Odyssey is bland. 🙄
They're pretty much like Disney at this point. The more successful they are, the more conservative they'll be with their IP. Gotta remember Mario is their Cash cow, and Mario games are always going to be filled with familiarity because that is the formula that works. The wild new stuff is reserved for the mainline games now. It's a bummer, but it is what it is. Blame capitalism. Way different and way bigger corporation we're talking about here!
@Antraxx777 Paper Mario wasn’t too annoying with exp grinding IMO. Hell, you can beat the entire game without grinding (though it’s very difficult to do so).
If you no longer get exp from battles, then battles lose all purpose besides story advancement, no matter how fun they are.
Frankly I'm heart broken.
These rules do nothing for the series and I'm very disappointed that the devs didn't try to challenge it. As if the voices of fans of the original Paper Mario games and SPM fell on deaf ears.
The things we already loved they experiment and change, yet the things we enjoyed were changing are now kept stale. And for what purpose? So their Nintendo characters don't seem too different from usual? In a spin-off game that was originally called Mario Story and a proper RPG?
This is a farce. I can't believe this is coming from Nintendo.
And it certainly doesn't explain several other changes in Paper Mario's direction either.
With this happening and Alphadream dying, I've pretty much given up on getting a proper Mario RPG ever again.
Perhaps the game is still enjoyable in its own way, but from what I've seen it doesn't really do anything better than TTYD or SPM besides humour. I'll have to play it myself to be certain, but that won't be until it's on a very steep sale.
This is just horrible.
I mean sure, we could have fun characters this was as well, but just think back to how many fun and creative characters were in the first two Paper Mario games. I feel like Miyamoto (and perhaps many of the higher ups at Nintendo) don't take Paper Mario seriously.
Super Paper Mario pretty much only had original characters and vanilla Mario characters, and that worked out wonderfully, so maybe someday we'll get something like that, but I'm personally all for the wacky characters based on existing Mario enemies and races.
Maybe it’s time for Myamoto-San to retire and let some fresh ideas enter the universe.
@Bruh Paper Mario is developed by Intelligent Systems; Odyssey was Nintendo EPD. Nintendo has a long history of treating characters and IPs as "belonging" to the teams that created them. (This is pretty common in Japanese culture, as I understand it.) Nintendo EPD was formed out of Nintendo EAD, which was Miyamoto's old team and the team that created Donkey Kong and Mario. Thus, Nintendo EPD has license to create new characters and play with the design of old ones, while Intelligent Systems doesn't.
It is disappointing, though, especially considering how Miyamoto has said that he views each Mario game as a stage play. In that light, having Mario characters dress up in distinguishing outfits (which is basically what the old Paper Mario sidekicks were) seems completely appropriate. But I guess from Nintendo's point of view, it would have to be Nintendo EPD doing it.
Maybe my English is not good enough so I misunderstand something here but why should "As much as possible, ..." exclude any changes to existing characters? Is this term not the same as "as far as possible" and just means "if possible, do only use characters already existing in the Mario universe but you are not restricted to them" and is not saying "Do not change any existing characters under no circumstances"?
So there should be room for more creativity regarding the characters?
@OptometristLime Oh wow, was she? Might need to look it up. I just remember Vivian's gender identity being a reveal (Just realized Birdo's the same. Nintendo's surprisingly open with trans Mario characters) and that Vivian was awesome in TTYD.
I hope this was a "lost in translation" thing but I doubt it. Oh dear, how sad. I've always seen Nintendo as highly creative (in most ways) in our gaming industry
I don't want to live in this cruel and twisted reality where we never get a good paper mario game ever again
What a way to completely misunderstand the series. The thing that made the series fun and interesting was the self-parody of the Super Mario game world.
In its defence games like Zelda: The Windwaker and Breath of the wild have good stories too (yeah, I said Breath of the wild. The story behind it is just cool). Maybe not on Playstation/Xbox level, but its at least far better then Mario attending yet ANOTHER festival. In that case they should just go the DK jungle beat route with Paper Mario. There its already said on the box that there is no story (and its a great game by the way).
That being said I wouldn't be surprised if Breath of the Wild 2 just goes like this: Link and Zelda find mummy-Ganondorf, he awakes and attacks Link, Link must stop him. That's all! As for all the darkness promissed: Here's a night-sky, and maybe 1 or 2 caves. But we'll see.
But back to Nintendo's weird rule regarding characters: Maybe the few people on this site who mentioned Disney are right. Miyamoto mentioned Disney a few times, he wants to turn Nintendo into Disney. That's why everything has to be bland and predictable. No more edge (besides Splatoon), no more darkness (when is the last time Nintendo made a dark game, both in theme and in visuals?). Everything has to be super-positive and samey. Very sad I think.
Every paper mario game is going to be bland and generic
Yeesh. I get the feeling paper mario has become Nintendo's 'Star Wars'. Just stop making them. If Nintendo doesn't understand why people prefer the old games, and most people aren't happy with the current releases then I think it should just stop. I get exhausted from this constant cycle of "new release announced-hype-disappointment-hate".
Please change this God awful policy ASAP, nobody wants this.
@KingBowser86 Yeah, uhm, gonna be honest, my first reaction to all that was one word.
I don't care what kind of company politics are going in behind the scenes. This is entirely nonsense. from both Tanabe and Miyamoto. Mario can both be simple and have an overarching story, those are not two mutually exclusive states of being.
Paper Mario as a series started off as a new way to experience Mario, same with the M&L series, and it just seems like Nintendo, Miyamoto, and co. are looking at what made those games so great and going "Nobody is going to miss these."
The whole thing reeks of arrogance, despite the fact most of us know what we want to one degree or another...
If they keep up this kind of stuff, and after hearing that Tanabe's on Metroid Prime 4 as well, I fear for that game.
Miyamoto needs to understand having Mario inside an adventurous story with actual writing and such is something people actually want and will pay out for if the offering is actually good.
This is the most bs excuse I've heard from Nintendo since BotW developers saying they wanted to incorporate new features in the DLC, only to bring it in the second DLC.
It's also more bs when you look at the MARIO & LUIGI series, the series that literally modified existing characters.
Maybe they should've taken advantage of all the cool new species Odyssey introduced, then?
Ugh, thank goodness Miyamoto isn’t allowed to set limits on what Smash can be. He’s brilliant sometimes, but I feel like he needs to be kept away from genres that he doesn’t get. Like RPGs.
@Entrr_username I'll stick to my certified Dr. Baby Wario thank you very mu- who am I kidding, NONE of them are doctors! They have a Dolphin for crying out loud!
Nah this is just absolute nonsense. He's really lost it if he thought any of that was a good idea. It's just ridiculous. The Paper Mario games had amazing combat, story and unique characters. This just feels really lame in comparison. It's much, much better than Sticker Star and Color Splash but it's still nowhere near the depth and fun of the first 3 Paper Mario games. It's a real shame. He just doesn't understand Paper Mario at all.
@Dr_Lugae finally someone who actually reads the what they are actually saying instead jumping on the hate train
Yikes! I guess that means we'll never see something as Mr. L ever happening again.
Just the kind of answer I was expecting. Doesn't take the sting out of it though.
@LowRyder Yes!! Lunar!! 😄 Thank you!
@Dr_Lugae ahh, thank you for verifying.
Still, a shame to constrict Intelligent Systems creativity for adding individuality and style to existing Characters in the Mario universe.
@Brydontk I think I misrepresented my viewpoint actually; wrote that kind of late and seeing it now wasn't quite worded correctly.
The coarse grain version is that Vivian was written in a manner that seemed consistent to Japanese viewpoints. While i am not well qualified to examine their cultural nuances, gender expression seems to be a trope that is explored within the realm of comedy. Often this space can avoid the stress of other venues, and thusly serves as a proving ground for a variety of norms; the Paper Mario games are certainly known to be intelligent in their melding of humor to enhance character development. The reveal for us in America largely skirted any controversy and as a ghost it just seemed to make for an extra enigmatic character.
Whew that was a lot...
Also Flurrie was just a curious addition to the game and perhaps with more at stake from a perspective of aesthetics, lol.
This comment makes me really angry. Takes me back to the terrible Wii days when Nintendo was less open minded.
According to those rules, do other spinoffs like Luigi's Mansion have to reduce their cast also to generic Mario-characters in future-games? Like for example replace the portrait ghost-like Helen Gravely and the others with normal-looking Boos and other established ghost-enemies from the mainline games like Dry-Bones, Broozer, and Peepa?
They kinda have to do this now. Or are those rules only count for the Paper Mario-series? This is very confusing I have to say.
They need to retire Miyamoto so they can get creative freedom. None of the future mario games will make a impact and stay in people’s memories like the ones before that rule. Why stifle the games best aspect that everyone loves?
He may be a legend, but that's apparently gone to Miyamoto's head. Personally I still say Legend of the Seven Stars was the best Mario RPG game to play, and I love how it toyed with Mario's existing world, and the original characters it brought. Weaving an actual story had never been Miyamotos strong suit, something he must surely be aware of due to how often he leaned on the crutch of silent protagonists. So given that, perhaps he should just shut the ***** up over anything RPG related, considering they are almost always exclusively about story. You don't win the gold in swimming if all your training was in sprinting.
Sounds like they are trying to find a solution for a problem that never existed in the first place!
This is just sad to hear. There's just so much potential for Mario RPG and limiting the creative process is just awful. Yes, having limits forces you to be more creative but there's a limit for that too.
This is a bizarre policy, quite frankly. If Paper Mario is a spinoff and self-contained as its own "universe", then there should be no issue about anything affecting the core franchise. Nintendo is basically tying their own developers' hands with such a policy. It makes no sense, creative or otherwise.
Why would Miyamoto do that?! Since when he decided having a story in a videogame is a bad thing? They should give the reins to the guy who did the story to Majora's Mask and Rosalina's story to SMG. A game could be good without a story, but then it lacks the emotional aspect that really sticks to player's minds.
No retiring Miyamoto! They should simply keep him away from RPG:s where story is important. Let him create a new Ip or give him projects from genre's where story is not that important. Maybe direct a new f-zero?
I could not disagree more with miyamoto here. The unoriginal characters and the lack of fun combat experience are the major reason me and plenty of other people aren’t getting this game. The first two were completely original and fun to play. Paper Mario is a rpg that used to be all about story and character development, lately these games give us toads, goombas, and koopas out the whazooo but they’re all the plain white bread versions. Partners that used to join us in battle all had an interesting look and backstory but here battling with them is so minimal. Wasted potential in this series.
Is this the same company that added checks notes Hiker Wario, Fairy Daisy, Freerunner Koopa to Mario Kart Tour, and made every character a Doctor for Dr. Mario World? Or do the rules not apply when they need to generate a stream of reskins for money grabbing gacha system in a mobile app?
That rule was imposed by miyamoto. Tanabe is just doing the best he can with what he was given
Absolutely pathetic. Cannot believe such a short sighted rule when the previous Paper and M&L games were incredible. Look at the remake that ruined Superstar Saga by changing all the new characters into generic ones. It was pathetic then and it's pathetic now.
Plus - An RPG/Adventure is "fine without a story" !!!??????
Is it best at this point that Miyamoto retires or takes a less active role within Nintendo? When was the last time his input didn't damage a series? Think of the garbage he used to design & promote on Wii!!
I love Miyamoto but the fact he has ruined Paper & M&L shows he is passed it now.
I hope Tanabe and team made a folder of feedback regarding the early games' character designs and story feedback to show how beloved they were. Even children find a million toads BORING AF.
@Cia He has been against story since the NES days. But Nintendo never made RPG back then. Square developed Mario RPG on SNES and the hangover from that led to a few generations of awesome games from 64 and GC through GBA and perhaps DS until Nintendo design theory destroyed the Square RPG goodness. Sad.
@status-204 If it was a poor translation then all modern RPG Mario would have XP, a story and original characters. But they have none or almost none of those things.
@NathanTheAsian Mario & Luigi has been banned from having new characters too. Superstar Saga remake was a 0/10 compared to the 9.8/10 (too hard final boss stage) original!
It's pretty amazing that Miyamoto is stiffling creativity and innovation at Nintendo.
Thanks for your contributions Shigeru but it's time to retire.
@DDFawfulGuy Agreed. They should have fought this rule ferociously, stating that "we have tried it your way and the games bombed. The reaction was TERRIBLE. When we did it the creative way the games were all time classics."
I would refuse to work if I knew we had our wings clipped to only be able to design a poorly received game. It would damage the future of the studio even if that wasn't the intention from the start.
Look at Alphadream designing M&L games that bombed after they took away creativity, the studio got shuttered!
So what? We can't even put hats on goombas now??
Yeah, so Miyamoto is an idiot
I'm glad I'm not alone when I feel like this is a lazy response. They could have very easily not made Kirby looking villains for this game, and went with more Mario familiar characters...the casuals know what Mario species are they have played atleast one game. It could have been an evil goomba hell-bent on distraction and wanting the goomba ranks to rise up...and it would probably be a cooler villain.im not saying I hate olly but if they think the only way to make casuals indentify with characters is to make them in the their most basic form. ..then that's ridiculous.
That being said I do enjoy the game...just wish battling meant something tbh. Everything else has been fun...well most of it lol
The time I've had with TOK has been mostly positive, I really like the game so far. But I'd much rather have a ttyd 2 of sorts. At least the devs know how to make a good title with little leeway
Too bad this game will sell well :/
@Steel76 Nah. The Origami King is just stuck in the Wii U era.
This all just feels like arbitrary excuses to be lazy in the character designs. Also, stories are a part of what made Paper Mario good in the first place so the arguments come off as justifying nonsense.
Granted, I’ve enjoyed my time with Origami King (FAR more than Sticker Star) but even so, that’s not a good excuse to disregard experience points. This all just sounds like a middle finger to people who like the Paper Mario series. What a joke.
this rule is stupid, this rule is hurting the Paper Mario frachise quite well, Shigeru Miyamoto need to retire or stop giving stupid rules to Mario spin-off like Paper Mario or Luigi Mansion so we can have a Paper Mario with tradicional elements like XP and real Parterns.
Is this why the newer games are so full of Toads? Either way, I hate this and it's one of many reasons I stopped buying modern Paper Mario titles. The creative characters found in games like Paper Mario, TTYD, and Superstar Saga are one of the reasons I love those games. It gives the games personality and charm, which is something I felt the series has lacked since Sticker Star. All they've done is load the games up with Toads and paper jokes and we're expected to enjoy it.
I don't really care, this series is crap imo.
Didn't enjoy the first game either.
As much as I admired Miyamoto before... I'm starting to think that he should retire. The decisions he makes are starting to be more and more dumb as the years go on.
Yes Nintendo, creativity is always a bad thing.... 🙄
No entendí nada.
@Entrr_username ....right, but that’s what Nintendo is reinforcing now.
@spyro202 Now how retirement works
Nintendo is probably the most creative company there is from their consoles to games. It won't change the fact just because Miyamoto doesn't like stories in games.
At any rate and as I said before, they should give Miyamoto projects where the story is not that important, and let the company's best writers handle the rest (still looking at the guy responsible for the stories in Majora's Mask and SMG)
@Dr_Lugae Then explain modifications such as Goombette and Tropical Wiggler in Super Mario Odyssey. Not to mention that TOK has modifications being the folded soldiers and the Paper Macho enemies being modifications from the old school enemies. So the interview is a poor excuse with ignorance added.
But that's an entirely different case. Unlike The Origami King, the Superstar Saga remake is well...a remake.
From what I have seen so far, many of the unique characters are also unique species. Though I also remember three unique characters in Shogun Studios, and many of the important Toads have unique designs.
Super Paper Mario was full of new species and unique memorable characters, so I guess they had similar limitations there.
That's also why the next Paper Mario game needs to be a remake of TTYD! AlphaDream could still use the unique characters of Superstar Saga on the remake but also had to slightly modify some to modern standards. That didn't ruin the experience however, in fact it made it more memorable and in-line with the current releases. I have more reasons for why TTYD is the perfect remake Intelligent Systems needs to focus, but I'll talk more about that on other time.
@NathanTheAsian It was a remake and they STILL turned unique characters and enemies into generic plain ones. It was ridiculous.
@N1ntendodo This game blows. splash sounds as the 3DS box falls into the crapper
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