Loot boxes in video games have been something of a contentious topic for a while now, and the UK's House of Lords ("The House of Lords Select Committee on the Social and Economic Impact of the Gambling Industry", to be precise) has just added its voice to the conversation, suggesting that the UK Government "must act immediately to bring loot boxes within the remit of gambling legislation and regulation."
The report states:
There is academic research which proves that there is a connection, though not necessarily a causal link, between loot box spending and problem gambling. We echo the conclusions of the Children's Commissioner's report, that if a product looks like gambling and feels like gambling, it should be regulated as gambling. The liberalisation of gambling by the Gambling Act 2005, the universal adoption of smartphones, and the exploitation of soft-touch regulation by gambling operators has created a perfect storm of addictive 24/7 gambling.
Should the UK Government take heed of these suggestions, it would join Belgium in treating loot boxes as a form of gambling.
EA is one of the biggest supporters of loot box mechanics via its popular FIFA series, stating that it considers them to be "surprises" which are perfectly ethical. However, some games, like Rocket League, have ditched them entirely.
[source eurogamer.net]
Comments 63
What about surprise mechanics?
@Mr_Pepperami aka the game breaking glitch
It's not gambling, it's *****.
Well... They aren't wrong. It's basically gambling.
It's just that corporations have gotten so greedy with it that now everyone is starting to notice.
But Pay-to-wait game services aren't. Cannot wait for EA to play that card.
You only need to see that people are spending huge amounts on trying to get certain items in games to see it is gambling they are also there in many games to give people the edge over others once you get those items so the games start to become unbalanced in favour of those who put more and more money in rather than any sort or time and skill investment. The minute I seen these things turn up in Fifa a decade ago I thought they were exactly that sadly though it takes many people a long time to realise it and it is even more obvious now when you see children using parents credit cards to keep buying this stuff because they feel compelled to.
Obviously, it’s gambling, I got it from day one. I never put my money on things like that.
Yeah, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck, or in this case, gambling.
@Paraka How is that gambling?
That's a surprisingly astute conclusion for a chamber of unelected fossils
Finally. Took them long enough. Now let's hope this eventually leads to lootbox bans in the US.
There definitely IS a connection. Both are the addiction problems the audience keeps blaming on others instead of pursuing self-control or seeking professional help.
sometimes you have to give the coffin dodgers at house of lords credit. plus most are too old and financially secure give a flying fffffffffffffffffffff about brown envelopes from game publishers.
@Alztru - Didn't say it was, saying EA plans to find other microtransactions that will net them money.
They are gambling! Finally!
House of Lords, huh? Are they classic Lords with crappy growth rates and late promotions? Or more modern ones that are OP af and can solo maps?
"SUPRISE EA!" marvellous news.
I played Madden for a while and purchased Ultimate Team packs, I dont see how its that much different from sticker albums or collector cards, other than the phyiscal ownership. But I guess that is the main difference, can see this escalating to other childrens toys, blind bags, etc...
I felt dirty after I pumped real cash into it and got some really bad cards.
When the fun stops, stop...
@Paraka Oh ok. I thought you were trying to say that EA would argue that what they do is no different than "Pay-to-wait" games
@Alztru - Well, I can see them do that, it is EA.
But no, just figured EA will go another, probably more venomous route. Like The Cullibg did with a pay per game.
@YorkshireNed @Anguspuss Hahahaha, well said. Loot boxes too closely resemble gambling, say the folk who stake all on Brexit. Marvelous! (Seriously, though, good for the "coffin dodgers"!)
The House of Lords is surprisingly on to it. Sadly the current elected government of the UK is less enlightened, and fairly unlikely to act on this recommendation, judging by past form.
I wouldn't like to draw any conclusions from this about the efficacy of democracy in the UK so I won't.
@nhSnork Personal responsibility? OK, sure. But not when EA is preying on people under 18. The personal responsibility for that belongs to Andrew Wilson.
They are gambling, but so are sticker packs and trading card packs that are pretty much solely aimed at kids.
Gambling platforms in the UK are rampant and badly need sorting out. You can't watch a football match on TV without seeing dozens of gambling promotions in some shape or form, whether it's adverts during breaks, billboards or shirt sponsors. Once upon a time, going to the bookies or betting on the races was seen as a niche and morally questionable activity, but thanks to the proliferation of websites and apps, especially related to football, gambling has become normalised, and loot boxes in games (especially FIFA) are just adding to its ubiquity. A crack-down on this industry is long overdue.
@nhSnork
Lootboxes on games aimed at children is the problem. Gambling should be allowed only for adults.
This is probably why Nintendo's moving away from mobile. As the monetization which makes mobile games successful becomes banned in more countries, the damage done by ruining the brand is larger than the profits gained from the monetization.
Wow, UK group now thinks baseball card packs are gambling. Claw machines are gambling now. Quarter bubble gum machines are gambling. Lol, these lords are a joke.
@71nk0 @COVIDberry a game can be aimed at children. A microtransaction legally can't - there's a reason many companies recurrently refund cases of obvious spending by minors. The only way to circumvent it (no, dad's nonchalantly tied or quietly snatched bank card doesn't count since it's a parenting problem through and through) is to buy a gift card, so I'm not sure why no one ever thought to just make THOSE a 18+ item in retail. The rest, including what kids spend the entrusted money on, is entirely on parents. Yes, it's challenging, but literally everything about having and raising a child is. Those who refuse to accept it and the politicians hoping for a quick harvest of their votes (expecting them to have actual ethical concerns about kids is pretty naive) are the source of all this recurring teacup tempest. But neither category wants to [suggest their voters to] thwart the "issue" at its core because that implies actual mundane effort on a daily basis, not some laws and bans from above.
Great news, hopefully the game industry will move from this.
Its surprise mechanics, not loot boxes so EA is safe...
To quote the famous example, FIFA is rather 3+, but Pokemon Red is 12+ on 3DS because it has the Game Corner.
So basically just about every Nintendo Mobile game that mostly target kids and have a larger distribution.
But lets use just a picture of FIFA 🙄
@nhSnork You can aim a Game or a "microtransaction" to kids.
Making a Kid want a pair of digital shoes in a game or a real one from a toy store as an accessory for a doll the already own (digital or real) is not illegal
The issue (so they claim) is the BOX with a random give. Where it is a "chance" you get the shoes. There it is not a store that sells toy shoes, but a Slot machine that "jack-pot" are the toy shoes.
A digital store that you see what you are getting is 100% legal.
FOMO is a powerful tool on games like (but not restricted to) FIFA Ultimate Team or NBA 2KXX. It's a shady tactic made to increase impulse buying, and it's a sh*tt* thing to do on games aimed at kids.
Of course EA considers them "surprises" and not gambling. Using EA's logic it's like when parents tell their child they were a "surprise" NOT a accident.
Wonderful news and a great step forward for the world. You guys are so lucky, you actually have a government and not a 24h dadaist sketch show like Brazil.
@mesome713 @eltomo @Big_Fudge
Let me clarify a few things for you guys. A game of randomized content is not necessarily gambling. So a trading card pack with a random odds of getting rare cards or specific cards, that is not gambling per se. The gambling element comes into play when there is an avenue of loss. This is unfortunately the legal definition of gambling. EA and other such companies are trying to pretend loot boxes fit outside of the definition of gambling due to the fact that if you buy a loot box you are guaranteed at least one item from that loot box list.
Unfortunately, digital content does not often have duplicates apply. A duplicate physical trading card can be sold to redeem some or even more than the cost of the pack. digital content that is duplicate merely becomes what the company claims the value of it is, often significantly less than a single pack.
Personally I feel almost all forms of randomized content should carefully be examined for gambling mechanics and stricken from access to minors, however I realize that's quite likely unreasonable. But starting against loot box mechanics is definitely a good start.
Slowly but surely we are getting there. Loot boxes are the cancer of gaming and companies like EA use them to prey on kids.
As I've said before, every game with this kind of gambling should be rated, at the very least, Mature. Personally, I think they should be given the rare A-O rating. Why? Because they go a step further than games with violence, nudity and substance usage. Games with those things portray them, while games with loot boxes aren't portraying gambling, they actually have gambling for kids.
You can always trade a collector's card, but in a video game, you have rarely an economic option. It's limited to gambling.
@RPGamer It's neither wrong nor absurd. It's the norm and always will be.
I find myself agreeing with actual "Lords".
I feel dirty.
But they are right. It IS gambling and should be treated as such. People fully get addicted to it. I was reading about Star Wars Galaxy of Heroes the other day and heard that there are players who have spent 50,000 dollars on the game and do not have everything.
cant believe they still allow this in games
@mesome713 are you serious? Do you know how many people spend 1000's of dollars during events just to get that 0.0003% drop? with no payoff with the exception of a lost paycheck and a drawing of a character they can use until another broken character gets released?
Between loot boxes and dlc clothing in doa6, I would take the latter as at least I have the product and don't need to spend money over and over for a CHANCE to get it. Edit: They are both equally predatory, however Between 2 demons.
@Big_Fudge This is true, as when you buy randomized card packs that's a form of gambling. However, I'll add the caveat that buying digital goods is way, way easier to do. With just the click of a button, you can spend $99.99 on coins or whatever.
As it stands, most people aren't ruining their finances buying trading cards. I'm sure they are out there, not denying that. Just thinking that the temptation involved in buying digital goods is greater.
Any game that has microtransactions or loot boxes gets ignored by me, full stop. Does this cause me to miss out on some fun times? Yes indeed, but there's SO many games out these days that cater to so many interests that I've had plenty of other games to play that don't make demands of my wallet past the initial purchase.
Consider playing games that respect your time and your money. Games with any sort of additional purchase are designed to do neither.
@Fido007 Yep, the reason these companies keep using this type of "service" is to prey on the "whales" and let everyone else who buys casually just keep steady money coming into their company. It's an absolutely brilliant strategy for the corporation, with zero pay off for the consumer.
Oh yay, I finally got my Elite-whatever card in some game, 2 years later they kill the servers to the game and my purchase gets killed with it. Oh boy.
@Zebetite Dude, I was just having a conversation with a friend about this. He is dumbfounded that so far, I have gotten close to 2,000 hours in Dark Souls: PTDE. That's since release, which was 2012-2013, or something? I forget.
My point is that I spent $40 on it, and continue to get solid entertainment out of it. Any game with a microtransaction where I will one day be no longer allowed to access what I bought, is also a no no for me. Like you, I recognize that I'm missing some things, but if you think about it, are we really?! Hahhaa...
If only it was possible to post the "pretends to be shocked" meme
I am amazed that only Belgium has a crystal clear law that loot boxes mechanic is essentially gambling. After so many years of talking about it it should already be a universal law.
Thanks Genius
@TG16_IS_BAE most people arent ruining their finances due to loot boxes either.
The general arguement here is that loot boxes are gambling that's aimed at kids. The reason the trading cards dont fall into the same gambling criteria is purely down to availability. They'd have to be in a shop with their parents credit card. Add two factor authentication for all in game purchases and this pretty much goes away.
@eltomo https://begambleaware.co.uk
Good for them. Even if something can't be technically defined as a specific vice, if the ultimate effects are the same, then it should be treated the same way as the actual vice. Loot boxes still maintain the spirit of gambling and gambling addictions even if you can argue (which can still be argued otherwise) that they aren't technically gambling.
@Agramonte we're not talking the marketing here - toys are also aimed at kids but not supposed to land in a kid's possession without an adult's involvement/supervision/awareness. And few if any parents (or so I hope) would get the bright idea to sue the toy makers or store merchandisers for a toy tempting their kid into quietly snatching their wallet after being denied the toy otherwise.
The difference between virtual gachas and gambling are another topic... or a non-topic since this difference should be sanely blatant - lootboxes normally don't employ cash-out monetary rewards and all gacha systems, with or without MTX, are designed to give the player EITHER the desired item OR something else, including potential fodder for future grind or future gacha chances. I've yet to hear of a casino whose slot machines would be guaranteed to give you "chip bits" to save up for more rolls or some kind of latte discount at the bar in case you don't win any money from it. And all of the aforesaid systems remain functional without real money investments as well - some of us here have played enough freemiums without spending a dime on them in years to know how this works.
And none of this is rocket science that can't be explained to a kid, teaching them to separate the wheat from the chaff and reminding them about all the equally tempting stuff that can be bought with the microtransaction money. It just takes being a parent, but that's a category above the tamagochi caretaker many parents sadly assume themselves to be when they conceive and bring into the world another human being.
@Big_Fudge I’ve read articles over the years reporting that people were getting themselves into serious financial trouble due to overspending on loot boxes.
@nhSnork The thing is, in some political circles. It is about "marketing" and how they target kids with these "gotcha" mechanics. I was making a distinction between "microtransaction" and the perceived issue with loot boxes. They should not be lumped into one (The argument that they are the same as gambling is something I also find can be debatable)
I agree with everything else there - especially everything after
"And none of this is rocket science that can't be explained to a kid"
Anyway, nice reply.
@TG16_IS_BAE reading a few articles is still a long way from being most people
@Big_Fudge You are coming across like it doesn't happen, or that because it only happens to what is in your mind "a few" that it's not as important. Do you believe that some people aren't addicted to loot boxes and such? Do you believe that it's not an important idea? Just trying to clarify, 'cause you're coming across a certain way and I want to give you a chance to clarify your statement.
@TG16_IS_BAE I just think you are very misinformed as to the real world if you think that "most people" are affected by crippling finances to due loot box addiction.
And yes, I do believe that some people arent addicted to loot boxes and such, most people in fact.
I'm not saying it isnt any issue because it happens to a fraction of people, I'm just saying maybe you are misinformed or have misunderstood what the word "most" means.
@Big_Fudge Right, so you are choosing to hone in on the word "most." It's okay, I get hung up on words sometimes, too, when I talk to people. I just remind myself to zoom out and try to hear the general message behind what they are saying, instead of zooming all the way in to focus on one word. Hope that helps.
@TG16_IS_BAE dude you cant make someone out to have some wild imagination by saying 'what is your mind "a few" and then get offended when they correct your use of the word most. It's not "in my mind a few" it's just a few, fact. It's not like everyone knows someone who had to sell their house because of FIFA loot boxes, that side of it is such a tiny issue.
The issue is that loot boxes are a gateway into gambling, that tends to be targeted and kids.
@Big_Fudge I’m not offended in the slightest, just trying to understand what you’re saying, and I think you clarified rather well.
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