Fortnite Developers Discuss The Constant Crunch Required To Maintain The Game

Raking in the dough while maintaining a heavier workload than the staff can cope with, typical business practice. Spend some of that money and employ more people you greedy twits.

@akash8899 Don't advertise please.

Related to the article, crunch happens at most major studios, but normally only in the few weeks up to release or before a major expansion releases. Permanently crunching on a game for minor updates and to keep your game alive isn't good, and will probably sacrifice some of the quality these new features would have received if they had the time.
From my own personal experience, this game's popularity is decreasing, so Epic should relax the pressure on employees and work on some features for longer and sllow staff to feel comfortable taking breaks.

This is why unionizing and pressure from employees and consumers is so important. This system isn’t going to fix itself.

Epic will release an empty PR statement at most, and Disney/ Marvel Studios (who just promoted this game in their film which Epic are tying into their game) will have nothing to say.

If this was a social justice issue you’d get reactions and apologies from anyone remotely affiliated with Fortnite. Bad press in that regard would cut into their profit margins and cause many to abandon the game.

Those issues certainly are important, but it’s time for similar outrage for issues surrounding worker’s rights. It’s an issue of international importance that effects everyone in every industry. This isn’t just about Epic or video games.

@shaneoh
Any idiot that works so much overtime without getting a piece of the pie is an idiot.
They might be doing some serious crunch time, but trust me, they get paid their dues. Otherwise, they wouldn't have any workers very fast.

I hope the people who get fired, find a better job than this s**t. As a programmer myself i can say that you need to be very focus on what you are doing, and you need to have a fresh mind, no way you can do a decent work when cannot relaxes even on weekends an also under the constant pressure of loosing the job.

@NotTelevision
What worker's rights??? Don't like it? You can always LEAVE! Any idiot that is complaining in that company should just LEAVE. No one is forcing them to stay!

How about spending some of those billions to employ enough staff to properly maintain your cash cow, Epic? God businesses are greedy.

@Banemus What a response.

So your first thought is tell the employees to leave, and not the managers and leaders at Epic to rethink their own obligations? Do the practices at any business ever need to change? The workers could always just leave, right?

Completely unacceptable, especially when you’re one of the most popular and profitable games in the world - hire more staff if the workload is too high. Execs will be lining their pockets while the average-paid programmers and designers kill their work/life balance.

This is the sort of thing that makes me mad. In the past I've suggested developers need to employ more staff to help speed up things like patching out bugs and adding new content, others quickly pointed out that it doesn't happen like that and it won't happen.
See this article, now we know why.

@Banemus
Spoken like someone who has no responsibilities. A lot of people can't just leave their job, bills need paying, food needs to be put on the table, for us, in order to leave our job we have to have another job to go to.

@NotTelevision great comment.

@KingdomHeartsFan I agree. I also think there needs to be an understanding that ‘crunch’ or any overtime isn’t isolated to just the video game industry. It’s present in most professions.

I work in a completely different type of job and last week I did 64hrs, and that’s fairly normal. I know that hundreds of my colleagues also do the same, probably more. I have also done in excess of 70hrs myself in the past.

My wife is a teacher. She does her 40hrs (8am-4pm) but generally gets into work between 7am-7.30am and finishes on most days between 5pm-5.30pm, plus the planning and marking that she then does 2-3 nights at home. By the end of it she probably does 55-60hr weeks most weeks.

Sure, it’s not a constant 70hrs a week, but I think the big difference there is that we are unionised. Therefore, there is no risk of being fired and we are treated fairly. I get paid for my time, but bizarrely my wife doesn’t (it’s just expected).

For us it then becomes a choice to show how committed we are to our jobs, which then transfers over to career progression.

It’s not entirely fair that Epic employees work in fear of being fired, but that’s why they need to take action and unionise- not just whinge about. They also need to understand that it’s also kinda normal if you want to be/get better.

I found out the hard way with a similar scenario (albeit in a different industry) in my last job. Ultimately I feel no job is worth sacrificing your personal life or mental health for, but @banemus point on just leaving is ridiculous. People have families to feed and bills to pay, if it was as simple as just upping and offing when the going gets tough then Epic would probably have no employees. Or any large company for that matter. Unionise, coerce and force the executives to value their workforce more, everybody wins in the long run that way.

Major studio game development is notorious for being the highest stress, lowest paying environment for programmers and developers. They can get away with it, because so many people want work in the industry, and are willing to put up with much more than someone say, making banking software. The problem is that if you speak up or stand up for yourself you are targeted as a problem and will have a hard time finding work anywhere else. It doesn't matter how talented you are (unless you're fortunate enough to have made a name for yourself), because there are 50 other talented people waiting in line behind you.

Some studios are more draconian than others, but they all do it to a degree. Some of the best AA studios have come from industry veterans that are sick of that treatment and want to create an alternative, but unfortunately it's obviously really hard to find the money for that, so there are only a handful of successful ones.

The talk of 'if you don't like it, just quit!' is nonsense. Unfortunately, if you're passionate about making games, you either have to suck up insane, unreasonable demands on your sanity, or be willing to not make any money for a long time, which just isn't realistic for most people.

@1UP_MARIO Thanks.

Yeah it’s amazing there are still so many apologist given that we also know of this happening at EA, Activision/Blizzard, Rockstar, CD ProjectRed, Telltale...

At what point does something become a problem that needs to be solved?

That's exactly something that needs fixing. They're riding the wave now, yet the game will be past its bell curve sometime this year, probably. Perhaps they'll be able to create a healthy cadence in order to make it and the team responsible live long and prosperous. The game certainly has that potential.

It's risky business too - 9 women don't make a baby in a month, as the saying goes. You don't want the people who have the knowledge of the inner workings to leave, or worse. That'll be a fast death sentence.

I hope epic gets it together in order to make this work out best it can. Hyper growth, hyper tension, but you'll need a scaling plan for your business and people.

I'm very glad that I don't work in the games industry. I would learn to hate video games very, very quickly with nonsense like this.

The issue is also that the pool of talent is quite large so just quitting will hurt the employee and the employer will just hire again. Unionization and basic standards need to be enforced. This is purely a profit decision - they COULD hire more people and rotate people in and out of patches and releases. Instead they push down to not increase overheads.

@Banemus Err... the problem is not that the want to leave, but they have bills to pay, mouths to feed. First off, they would have enough dough to gap the time they would need to find another job, since they are working crunch, they won't even have the energy left to have a social life outside the office. With your ramblings you are omitting the fact that some people are reliant on this income.

Though what bothers me the most, the company is displaying predatory behavior towards it's employees and you only condem those that are the victims and not the abuser.

@KingdomHeartsFan The problem is most people are understandably terrified to ever be the one to challenge anything, because most people aren't in a position to be a sacrificial lamb so OTHER people can have it better. So everyone keeps their mouth shut and accepts slavery because nobody wants to be a martyr for the benefit of others. Being the one to be thoroughly destroyed while watching everyone else that suffered with you having it better than you forever more is even worse than just enduring it. That fact with never change, which is how authoritarianism and corporate slavery alike have and will perpetuate forever. Those in charge know this, and know very little can challenge them.

And in a world that doubles population every other decade, there's never going to be a shortage of more slaves human resources to abuse.

Ultimately until the human population is drastically reduced, we're talking halving or less, things will continuously get worse, not better for the individual, and better and better for those who control them. Though ultimately, war, famine, plague, or all three will "fix" the problem after a century or so of even worse misery.

@Ajent "They also need to understand that it’s also kinda normal if you want to be/get better."

That's one aspect I'll never buy into, depending on the industry. In general one can only be focused and productive so much in a day before burning out, and even less so if you know your home life/responsibilities are continuously deteriorating while your life is dedicated to work. At some point it becomes filling a chair because you're expected to fill a chair, not because you're doing anything of value at all. It may be "expected" as companies realigned to "do more with less" but ultimately at best, it just burns people out until they're babbling, gibbering, neurotic idiots unfit to be a greeter at Walmart.

@KingdomHeartsFan, like Ajent was saying, it's not just the gaming industry. It's generally all business now. Tech and medical I tend to think of as the worst offenders, though, but it's generally everything except non-Wall St. finance. Remember when (depending on your age) companies had "staffing" departments? When it changed to "human resources" was the begnning of the end. That was when human labor became little more than machines to burn out and discard, because there are just too many of them. The 50's/60's golden age middle class in the US and Europe happened precisely due to low populations because of WWII and thus high value of every worker. Similarly the European Renaissance happened largely due to radically reduced population from the Great Pestilence. Every worker now had tremendous value.

Flash forward today, and there's 2 billion people in China and India alone. And in 20 years that will be 4B people. Don't want to work 100 hour weeks for no pay? Fine, 300 people in those countries are lined up to do it for half! Why would business change anything let alone make it continuously worse? As long as people in Mumbai don't mind living 5 families in a single room with a dirt floor, you still have lower you can sink, too.

That's our real problem, and no frilly messaging, politics, or anything else will change the economic equation of that. Workers are nearly valueless because there is a near-infinite supply. That will not change until supply is reduced considerably. Human reality, historically proves that the higher the corpses are piled, the better life gets for everyone else that's not on the pile. Nobody addresses this detail of labor supply/demand. Instead we're told happy thoughts abut saving the children and the value of out-working everyone else.

@KingdomHeartsFan True, but ultimately the "skilled" population is simply overwhelmed by numbers as well. Again, everyone looks at the export of manufactured goods from the rapid industrial countries like China and India, but they export more "skilled" labor than they export manufactured goods! With so many people it's easy to just skim the top 10% of the population, whip them into competitive shape, and flood the labor force of less populous nations, which ultimately forces the "overpriced" skilled labor in other countries more and more into unskilled menial work, as most will be caught in the in-between of not being the natural-born geniuses that make up the very top tier, nor the ability to compete for cost (and in the tech industry, perception among management of superiority) with the import/offshore labor. The sector generally doesn't suffer. Business knows this. Academia still pushes these industries though.

Yes, the most massive increases are in Africa and the Middle East. Though The M-E is exporting a lot of rapidly breeding population into Europe, some with very specific intent of overbreeding and overrunning the local populations there, so in 100 years, things might look very different there.

In the case of China and India, they radically need their population to shrink. But even if it does, they will still have extreme population density in proportions that affect economies in the same way, proportional to other populations. Japan is a bit of an outlier, as a late stage industrial society like the US, they have most of the same problems. No market has been particularly affected by an overrun of Japanese labor flooding the market, due to their isolated society, and Japan will certainly be in better straights with lower population in general.

As for the UK, US, and EU in general, we're chasing our tails. The reason we didn't produce enough children is inextricably linked the the labor problem we're talking about. The introduction in large scale of women into the workforce in the 80's & 90's doubled the labor pool instantly, halved the value of labor, and while the Boomers generation got an early windfall from two income households, it quickly hit equilibrium and the financial requirements of a single household simply required two incomes (unless one is well above average.) It's all a viscous circle. We're told we need to import population and labor due to shrinking population. The population is shrinking due to excessive overwork, stagnant income, and a relative inability to produce stable families in the society at large as a result of that ultra-competitiveness that anyone raising a family is insufficiently dedicated to work and therefore is replaceable. So we all go without families. Then they bring in replacement population from overbred places who due to their familiarity with very low standards of living are willing to do the same work for a fraction of the price, rendering the native population undesirable, and pushed downward, making them even less likely to ever be able to sustain a family, both basically, and functionally able to be desirable as a worker, and the ability to raise offspring in a way they are able to be competitive enough to do the same. And the cycle only deepens. Sure, the system is great for those that happen to be among the best at something....but that's never going to be a majority of population. A system built on "if you're not first, you're last" as a central operating principal isn't a sustainable system.

I don't, personally, see any way to fix the crisis the West overall has built for itself as I watch it accelerate annually. I feel it effectively will run aground and collapse at some point. It's too deep into the spiral to correct it without a collapse or major disaster to force a change, though such an event is entirely possible, if not probable. If not overt collapse, it will simply disappear in time as the last of the Romans did in Romania, absorbed into replacement civilizations. We already lost our society. It was lost before most here were even born. We're just waiting for it to hit bottom now.

@NEStalgia I’ve just read the rest of your comments and completely agree.

My ‘normal to get better’ comment (paraphrasing) was meant to reference that once you are in employment that does treat you fairly, protects you, but offers choice, then putting in those extra hours and extra work is how you make a name for yourself, prove yourself and develop your career. Sometimes you’re lucky and don’t have to, but a lot of people have to work hard to get noticed.

Anyway, I still completely agree with everything you’ve said. The comments have been a really good read.

Lotta virtue-signalling here, but at the end of the day nearly everyone here still plays Fortnite (or would if it were actually a good game, that is).

@NintenDan_ @shaneoh @NotTelevision @Lemmy_the_Koopa
You all realize that you can FIND a job while doing another job, right? It ain't hard, open your browser and google for a different job. So when you found a different job, you can leave the previous job. Not being able to put food on the table is a lazy BS excuse. And if you REALLY hate the job, you can always find a job as a garbage collector so you can leave asap and then find another job while doing the garbage collecting. Period! Stop with the excuses!

Why should the company change for the workers? If you come and apply for a job and the company says: "you will have to do a lot of overtime and crunching" If after that, you accept the contract... That is NOT the business problem, that is your own fault for accepting the contract! They didn't put a gun to your head and make you sign it. If the company changed while you were there, you can ALWAYS find a different job! Stop making excuses.

And if you all know it soooooo well on how to do it... make your own company and proof it!

@Banemus
"You all realize that you can FIND a job while doing another job, right? It ain't hard, open your browser and google for a different job. So when you found a different job, you can leave the previous job."

Yeah and until you find a different job you're stuck there (which I've already said BTW). You also have to find time to go to interviews, which isn't easy considering the time demands these companies are putting on their workers. If these people get laid off, they could be out of work for years.

"Not being able to put food on the table is a lazy BS excuse."

Financial security is never a BS excuse.

"Stop with the excuses!"

Oh yes, these people are masochists. They want to deal with ridiculous work hours to deal with excessive work loads because that's how they get their jollies.

"Why should the company change for the workers?"

For their health and safety obviously.

"Stop making excuses."

Hypocrite, making excuses for companies using bad business practices.

"And if you all know it soooooo well on how to do it... make your own company and proof it!"

1. Prove

2. Not owning our own business (though I only speak for myself, I can't speak for the other three, they may have their own business) doesn't prevent a person from understanding how to run a business.

@Banemus As the person above me
has pointed out, your argument is full of straw men, logical fallacies, and only serves to prove the immorality of your stance.

Just do some research and try to get educated on the topic. Don’t be a troll and an apologist for a system that only benefits the few and wealthy.

The extreme poverty rate falling by a half over the last quarter century (largely due to free markets opening up) mustn’t count then. I know right now it’s trendy to hate capitalism because a lot of people borrowed $100,000+ to get a liberal arts degree, but it’s far superior to having to chop up your dog because you have nothing else to eat (as in Venezuela). Apparently some people don’t like technological innovations like the Nintendo Switch.

@Banemus I guess that serves me right for feeding the trolls.

@Banemus
You all realize that you can FIND a job while doing another job, right? It ain't hard, open your browser and google for a different job. So when you found a different job, you can leave the previous job.

Err... there is more to it. First of all you omit this requires time and will probably lead to a job interview that will be within business hours where those workers are gasp working. Because landing a job interview is no guarantee for a job. Let's assume they work on the low end of overtime for 70 hrs a week. Let's assume a modest 8 hour sleeping cycle, despite them probably needing more than that. That will leave them with roughly 6 extra hours each day. Those 6 hours consist of probably of coffee / breakfast, getting dressed, washing and commuting and doing household chores, getting modest amount of groceries and those 6 hours are probably not able to be available conscutively, which just adds how limited they can be used. This is not counting in that some even have a family they probably want to take part in. This is also assuming humans behave like robots, which does not work.

Not being able to put food on the table is a lazy BS excuse. And if you REALLY hate the job, you can always find a job as a garbage collector so you can leave asap and then find another job while doing the garbage collecting. Period! Stop with the excuses!

No, financial security is not a bullshit excuse. I am sure some people quit and got a job in another field, but they also gotta make sure this job pays. Sure, it'll probably easy to get a job at McD, but will the job pay bills? What if they bought / built a house? Have other dependents?

Why should the company change for the workers? If you come and apply for a job and the company says: "you will have to do a lot of overtime and crunching" If after that, you accept the contract... That is NOT the business problem, that is your own fault for accepting the contract! They didn't put a gun to your head and make you sign it. If the company changed while you were there, you can ALWAYS find a different job! Stop making excuses.

Stop already with the bullshit of nobody is holding a gun to your head. This is what we are talking about financial security.
In addition, the companies will probably not tell you that this is a constant, they will probably advertise it as "some crunch will occur, but it's negligible" or other things. Having sat in countless job interviews, there will always be a rosy picture painted.

Also the companies have social responsibility towards their employees.

And if you all know it soooooo well on how to do it... make your own company and proof it!

While I have not a multi-billion company I am doing actually something and commission and contract work to others and treat those people with dignity. Though knowing that you should treat humans with dignity should not be something anybody needs to prove to understand it.

I will further refrain from engaging with you, as your arguments are baseless and devoid of anything human and I'd rather have not further contact with individuals like you. Though despite all of this I sincerely hope you have a wonderful and fullfilling life and nothing ill befalls you.

@Euler Nobody here was unequivocally reproaching Capitalism. To say that labor laws or lack thereof benefit the few and wealthy, is an objective fact. Big businesses and corporations have been chipping away them for decades, that’s why they are fewer unions and stagnant “real wages” (wages adjusted for inflation).

You’ve also straw manned liberals and Socialism, by using the same tired mainstream media talking points. Do some research into Socialism. It’s got a very complex history composed of differing opinions and factions.

Venezuela is Venezuela and the problem there doesn’t represent Socialism as a whole.

Do your homework and get educated.

@Banemus Lol.

@NintenDan_
Yea, that is what i do when i think about your lives too.

@Banemus thanks for your input, man.

@NintenDan_
Yea, it's all a joke to you right? Sigh...

@shaneoh
"Actually the reason is that I haven't found a niche that I can fulfil. If I found a demand that I could supply within my community, then I have the capital to undertake a business venture. You're not very bright if you think that it only takes courage to start a business."

That is a nice excuse, ow wait then why does my town have like 50 different electricians i can contact ... hmmm or plumbers ? hmmm why are there so many game companies in the world? hmmm interesting, lot of niches going around apparently!
Every idea, that you ever had, someone already had it.

"That garage cost money, the computers cost money, the electricity cost money. If I recall correctly that money was made in card games."

YES, waw, you need a MILLION dollars to work from all of that! What a marvelous argument!
You can go to a client, tell him: "I need some cash up front because I need to buy a computer, rent a garage and pay for electricity." BOOM! 0 money required!
Clients pay you upfront to make a product. How else do you think studios pay their workers?????

"The only one acting like a victim around here is you. We are being empathetic to the employees being harmed by exploitative business practices, and that offends you so much that you feel the need to go on the attack."

Why is everyone so empathetic to employees? They can ALWAYS LEAVE. No one is forcing them to stay! Stop making excuses for them. It's the excusive behavior that is bothering me! If they are stuck there, it is their OWN fault!
If it was SSOOOOO bad, then why is the company still afloat? Why isn't 99% of the employees complaining about it? A company cannot work without employees!
I will blame the company WHEN the company goes under. That is the companies own fault!

@Banemus
You really don't have a clue do you?
"That is a nice excuse, ow wait then why does my town have like 50 different electricians i can contact ... hmmm or plumbers ?"

Tell you what, I'll come wire up your place, just don't blame me if it burns down. Those careers require at least a four year apprenticeship. It also requires you get the job over every other applicant. The companies still have to pay them like any other employee, they're not going to put someone on just because they want to be a plumber or electrician. It's a job that requires an opening just like any other.

"hmmm interesting, lot of niches going around apparently! "

Might want to look at the definition of niche. Plumbing and electricity are hardly niche services.

"hmmm why are there so many game companies in the world? hmmm interesting, lot of niches going around apparently!

Requires me to spend time learning code (I do have some small amount of knowledge in Java) as well as graphic design, animation, music and sound design.

"Every idea, that you ever had, someone already had it."

Learn to comprehend. I didn't say I needed a new idea, I just said that I needed to be able to provide a service that was lacking in the community.

"YES, waw, you need a MILLION dollars to work from all of that! What a marvelous argument!"

Such a drama queen, I said he needed money to get off the ground, I didn't say he needed a million dollars, only you are saying that. The fact that Bill Gates was playing poker to fund

"You can go to a client, tell him: "I need some cash up front because I need to buy a computer, rent a garage and pay for electricity." BOOM! 0 money required!"

Might want to reread that and realise how stupid it sounds. By your logic, you don't need to have money to get your business going, just ask the client to set up your business for you. Nobody is going to contract a person to do a job when they don't have the equipment to be able to do the job.

"Clients pay you upfront to make a product. How else do you think studios pay their workers?????"

The flaw with this gem is that not all software studios do contract work, a reasonable amount of them work on their own products. Now I don't know about you but I don't pay for everything in advance, there are these things called "services" which you pay for after the agreed upon work has been completed. Things like car repair, utilities, fuel, these are all examples of services.

"Why is everyone so empathetic to employees?"

Spoken like someone who has never worked a day in his life.

"They can ALWAYS LEAVE. No one is forcing them to stay! Stop making excuses for them. It's the excusive behavior that is bothering me! If they are stuck there, it is their OWN fault!"

Been over this, and you've yet to provide any argument against the points raised. Plenty of ranting and raving yes, but no arguments.

"If it was SSOOOOO bad, then why is the company still afloat? "

Profitability has nothing to do with this. You'd know that if you knew anything about running a business. Why do sweatshops work, the treatment of employees is abysmal in those.

"Why isn't 99% of the employees complaining about it?

Fear of reprisals.

Seriously, are you going to at least try to come up with a reasonable argument for the treatment of these people, or are you just going to spout the same platitudes over and over again?

@Banemus Can we please stop arguing with other users please? What @shaneoh meant by "haven't found a niche I can fill" is that if there are 50 electricians in your town, everyone will already have a favourite electrician and so becoming the 51st electrician means people won't choose you as they have no experience with your work.

Starting a larger business isn't as easy as just asking for money, either. Clients aren't going to pay you unless you have a proof of concept, which takes time and money to develop and produce.

Not all of the employees at Epic will wan't to complain for fear of losing their jobs and not earning any money at all to support themselves.

What I am trying to say is that it isn't easy to just quit your job and find a new one - that will take time whilst you're on a limited budget, so please can we try and end this argument here? Thanks.