Zelda-Inspired Action RPG Songbringer Brings Top-Down Adventure To Switch Next Week

Meh, getting a bit bored of the commodore 64 graphics now

Hammerwatch but taller

@N64SNESU Surely that's "Switch is a rich man's Wii U"? Got to love a good troll...

I've played this on PC. Aside from some REALLY TERRIBLE dialogue, it's a pretty good game.

It sounded good... Until the moment the words "procedurally generated" appeared. Definitely a no now.

Meh, I might get it in a sale in the future

Quit it with these 2D Zelda clones. I want the real deal, Nintendo!

This looks more Hyper-Light Drifter inspired than by Zelda itself. Or maybe I'm seeing things.

I was interested until I watched it, that art style is horrible and too many indie games use it for whatever reason. I'm slightly confused as to how most modern pixel art games look so much worse than their 8/16 bit counterparts

Wait for the new Zelda for 3DS coming soon...

I think it looks pretty good for a five buck game or so

Rather have a classic Zelda game than this crud.

I really don't understand why so many indie games these days use pixel art.

Beneath that art may be a fundamentally solid game, but there's a reason I can only play Zelda 1 for short stretches. It just feels so dated.

Compare A Link to the Past. The pixel art there is gorgeous. There was a huge leap forward from NES to SNES pixel graphics.

This pixel art here is at least as "retro" as many NES games, if not worse (someone above compared to Commodore 64). I'm fine with a few really good NES-style games (see Shovel Knight). But the Switch, and the modern computers many of these games were originally made for, can handle a lot better graphics than these.

I can only imagine that (A) the makers really like this art style and (B) there's some fan market out there for incredibly old-style graphics. I'm not asking for more modern games at full spec. I'd have the same criticism if all the 3D modeled games were pretending to be N'64 or Playstion 1 style. To me, it doesn't feel retro; it just feels dated.

@carlos82 this a million times! Like I LOVE pixel art but I genuinely am disappointed with the pixel art of most Indies nowadays. It's like they put no time or effort into making their games actually look appealing. Instead they do a rough draft and call it a day. It's very ugly and disappointing

I actually think it's a visually appealing game, but the top-down isometric view seems like it would clash with this particular style, it'd be very tough to execute pixel-perfect attack moves.

@N64SNESU
Bored are we?

@marandahir
@Oat

Have you guys thought about, that many small indie games are made by 1-3 people? And that they simply do not have the skills or time to produce beautiful 2D pixel graphics, like you see in games from bigger indie studies with more employees that includes talented 2d artist?

Studios like WayForward Technologies or Image & Form Games still have a bit more resources than most smaller indie developers / studios.

These 8-bit pixel art are still ok for many people, and the most easy to produce, if you do not have the skills for something better. And the market apparently also still have the appetite for these kind of games.

That way the developers can use their limited resources for the most important part of the game: Great Gameplay!
Ugly games can still be good games to play, but bad games can't really be saved by beautiful graphics.

You just don't produce beautiful 2D graphics with a snap of your fingers, like what you see in games like Shantae or SteamWorld Dig. This takes time, talent and a lot of resources to make.

But games with less stellar graphics and production values, can still be a blast to play, and worth your time and money.

Graphics suck. It amazes me that indie devs can't manage to do better than what we was done literally 25 years ago. And the worst part is that consumers consume it.

Wayforward's level of graphical quality in their Shantea and DS Contra series should be the minimal bar in 2018. Minimal.

@dres This doesn't matter to me. As a consumer, I spend money. And I spend money on quality. Making games is a business. Crying for small studios when they don't get a "fair shake" is similar to the concept of "everyone gets a trophy" that is turning our kids into complacent piles of mush. I have no responsibility for spoon feeding small 1 to 2 man operations.

It would be even a BIGGER blast to play games with great gameplay AND great presentation. We shouldn't settle for anything less. To do so is to take us back 30 years and say it's OK.

horrible graphics

@AcesHigh even snes has better looking games and it's so much much older

@Balta666 With you on that point. I want a game that is set in stone.

No thanks.

Looks okay but I have enough Indie games right now.

@Alucard83 Most definitely! That's what I was going for. So yeah... should have been 30 years! Very very sad that we are paying for content that looks like this today at ANY level.

The graphics are gorgeous and I love the premise. If it scores well, they have a sale from me.

@AcesHigh
Let the market decide all that.

If you won't pay for a game, then that is fine. But consumers are not the same, and some people do not really care that much about graphics and presentation. Only great gemeplay.

Comparing a one man studio like this Wizardfu with WayForward Technologies, that have more than 50 employees, doesn't make any sense at all!!!

If this game is not up to your standard, then just let it be, and don't pay for it. Of course I also expect much more from a WayForward game, with their kind of resources. But I can personally also find a lot of joy in many low-budget/low-production games, made by two or three people.

@carlos82 Pixel art is hard! I think everybody thinks it is easy, and then we wind up with stuff that looks like this game.

See this article for a **great discussion**:
http://www.dinofarmgames.com/a-pixel-artist-renounces-pixel-art/

Not my cup of tea! Graphics are really horrible!

Sorry, but you lost me at "procedurally generated worlds."
A beautiful handcrafted game world cannot be replaced by a throwaway, random world that no one else but you experiences. Outside of a "don't die" endless runner, these things never actually feel "fresh" to me.
They just feel insignificant and barren.

Didn’t even watch the video— only read the description and I’m beyond excited. If this is a $15 or maximum $20 I’m getting it. Anything higher and I’m waiting for a sale. It reads so cool.

Edit: I watched the video. And uh... I really truly hate this art style. It claims to be 16-bit or whatever which raises eyebrows like, “oh man SNES!” But then you see it’s THIS kind of 16-bit or whatever you want to call it. I hate it so much — so ugly! I may not get it now unless it’s cheaper than $15.
The only games I feel that it looked okay with were Elliot Quest (and awesome game) and Hyper Light Drifter. Can’t think of any others right now.

@NImH Other people will experience the same world by using the same seed.

@GraveLordXD Oh trust me, I don't need anyone to tell me not to buy. My concern is the market's willingness to support mediocre presentation and the impact it has on the budgets that major development studios have to develop outstanding games. It seems to me that AAA title production in general, across all console lines, have dropped in the last decade. Yes, flagship titles are coming through from Ninetendo. But what of the other proven 3rd parties? It would be interesting to see the production of major 3rd party companies today as compared to a decade or even 15 years ago.

BTW, a couple of the games you mentioned actually had SNES+ graphics - Owl Boy was one of them. It was pretty good. For me at least, anything less (and there is a LOT) is not moving the industry forward. Our collective acceptance of that is stunting the advancement in the arena of visual presentation. Of all the titles you mentioned, nothing new has been introduced. Nothing new, with the extra added bonus of bad graphics.

@AcesHigh Should this game prove successful it will have zero influence on AAA development or budgets, and not appealing to one particular person is not the same as being detrimental to the market.

@PanurgeJr what the heck does that even mean, oh Wise One? 😒

@Oat @Lone_Beagle I love pixel art and if I only had 8/16 bit games to play for the rest of my life I'd be more than happy to do so. I appreciate the difficulty involved in producing these but many seem to be going in the wrong direction and have this very samey look to them, which somehow don't look anything like any game from the SNES/Megadrive era and look worse than those despite being technically more advanced.

Shovel Knight and this week's Bloodstained have absolutely nailed the look of being more advanced than the NES but still looking like they could have been on it, Sonic Mania pulled the same trick as far as the Megadrive goes (yes they had some existing assets to work with but that's still a small team and he wrote the engine) and all 3 of them look amazing, Bloodstained for me is the best looking game I've played this year and I say that as am owner of an Xbox One X as well as Switch, it's also the most fun too as I love Castlevania.

I'm not sure how to describe it but this modern style is like instead of having the big chunky assets of the majority of games back then, there is now this minimalist design made up of many more tiny pixels almost like they're all copying Another World and that looked rubbish in 1991

I find the graphic beautiful. I didn't adapt (or corrupt) my own eyes with new gen graphic. Beauty is everywhere, you just have to clean your eyes or to were glasses. I will never understand all the people who complaint like king kid. Hyper light drifter is a pure beauty.

@NImH Random number generators aren't actually random. They're algorithms that use seeds to produce outputs and are completely determined by the seeds. When the seeds are random the outputs will appear to be random as well, but if the seeds aren't random, as when they are chosen by the player, neither will the outputs be.

@PanurgeJr and how does that relate to my point about actual, handcrafted world design versus a soulless algorithm? It seems to me that you're making a different, unrelated point.

More generic pixel artstyle stuff. Wowie.

You lost me at procedural generation. Ugh!

I like pixel art, but only when done right like bloodstained and shovel knight. These games resemble battletoads and faxanadu in quality. Some pixel art looks for sort of jaggy floating edges about everything and it doesn't appeal to me at all.

@NImH You're correct; what I'm saying has nothing to do with the difference between design and procedural generation. I am, indeed, commenting on a different point--but it's one that you yourself made. To quote you directly:

a throwaway, random world that no one else but you experiences

That simply isn't true. Anyone using the same seed will experience the same world. They did that intentionally, so that if someone discovers an interesting world--and one could certainly dispute that procedural generation automatically entails soullessness--then that world can be shared. It will not be destined to be played only once.

@carlos82 I'm completely with you. I LOVE pixel art. That's why I'm so disappointed with most modern pixel art. Games that look as good as Shovel Knight, Fez, Hyper Light Drifter, Enter the Gungeon, Axiom Verge, Cave Story, Stardew Valley seem to be rare. As you said most devs are going for this cheap poorly done minimalist look that looks very unappealing.

@dres I don't have a problem with pixel art games or 8 bit games in general. I tend to prefer 16 bit games because the presentation is much better. Even though most indies are 1-3 people teams it's no excuse to have pixel art that looks this bad. Games like Retro City Rampage, Axiom Verge, Stardew Valley, Cave Story, and Downwell were all made largely by one person yet their pixel art doesn't look this bad. Heck even Atooi (formerly Renegade Kid) has better looking pixel art than this and I think that Atooi's pixel art is nowhere close to being amazing.

As much as I love Zelda type adventures, something looks off about this. I don’t like the Luke Skywalker way he swings his sword.

A lot of talented artists on here...

I've never played Hyper Light Drifter, but after seeing it mentioned here in the comments, I watched a trailer for it. The two games look so similar that I'd say Songbringer isn't inspired by Zelda or HLD, it looks like a clone of HLD - the blink mechanic, the little doohickey following the main character around, same sort of weapon/attack style, mobs...

I don't know what everyone is on about the art style though, I think it looks great. Maybe I just like pixel art style games, or maybe my bar is lower, but I really think it looks great. HLD in comparison, (as far as what I see in the video) simply looks more...polished? The camera is zoomed out a bit more, which gives it that pixel but not pixel look.

Procedural generation doesn't bother me either. There are plenty of excellent examples of it from a world building perspective - Spelunky, Terraria, Starbound, Lego Worlds - and from a content perspective - Left 4 Dead 2, Borderlands, Diablo, etc. Just because the game world or content within that world is built that way does not automatically make it bad. I like that you can simply use the same seed and play the same world if you so choose. I love gorgeous handcrafted worlds as much as the next person - here's lookin' at you, ALttP - but a game that has many different world possibilities is attractive for different reasons. A good example of that is ALttP actually. BS Zelda: Ancient Stone Tablets feels the same...but different. The overworld is tweaked, the dungeons are all different, and the clock/timed events really made the game feel fresh again.

[Aside: Personally, the one descriptor that turns me off in a game description, no matter how great it looks, is 'rogue-lite' or 'rogue-like'. Ugh. Some games do it well - FTL, Binding of Issac, Enter the Gungeon, Spelunky I guess - but it's far more hit or miss than games with procedural generated content.]

I already have Blossom Tales on the Switch, and it scratches that top-down ALttP itch for now. Long story short, I'd give Songbringer a shot, but if it's the same price that it is on Steam, it's a no-go until there is an appreciable sale. Games that are $20+ CDN on the eShop are tough sells to me. I already have so many wonderful games to play, so by the time I'm ready for something new, there's usually a sale on something interesting. I only regret one purchase so far, which is 'Tumblestone'. It's fun for the first little bit, and then just a slog. Too many levels with not enough progression mechanics to want to bother finishing it. OK, this is going off topic now, sorry!

@EightyTwoStu No, the rich man has many real Zelda games on the Wii U.

The Legend of Zelda, Zelda II, A Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker HD, Twilight Princess HD, The Minish Cap, Skyward Sword, Breath of the Wild.

Did I miss any?

@Bunkerneath Me too, when Nintendo made a modern 2D Zelda game (A Link between Worlds) they made it look nice and polished, not pixelated. Why do indies think we want to be playing 8 bit looking games on our $300 hardware in 2018?

@dres The ugly 8 bit art style fad is dying out and not a moment too soon in my opinion. It's not my problem if your business can't make a quality product that I want, I am not a charity.

@Daftbomb I can't build my own car either but I still have an opinion before buying one.

@AcesHigh To each their own but overall its innovation and gameplay that move the game industry forward not better graphics. I'd say you agree with that if you're a big Nintendo fan. They hardly ever stress graphical power over innovation.
Also I'm not defending this game in particular because I haven't played it. Just my thoughts in general on the industry.

@youkoaoshi As a Nintendo fan surely you can name a first party game that tries to look like an 8 bit game?

Nintendo's games look great even if they aren't the top of the line in a technical sense. Nintendo doesn't go out of their way to make their games look 8 bit.

Nintendo does more with less powerful hardware but indies do less with more powerful hardware.

@Crono1973 Your statement on Nintendo making current 8bit games had nothing to do with the point of my comment. No AAA developer is truly making 8 bit lookalikes anymore. Megaman 9 and 10 are the most recent examples for AAA producers making 8 bit clones. They have the resources to do more.

My point is that its not what Nintendo is making now but their overall general philosophy. They rarely tout graphics. Its all about innovation for them. They have never had the most powerful hardware on the block but once (snes and maybe N64) and even that's debatable. I agree Nintendo games look great but they are far from envelope pushing like the other systems. My entire point is that graphics do not make a great game which we seem to agree on.

Also as an aside these games may be styled 8 bit but they do way more than an 8 bit system could. Unless you program your game with NES, Master System, C64, etc limitations your game isn't really 8 bit. I personally love 8 bit style but I'm also ready for more 16 and 32 not 2d style games like Sonic Mania.

I totally understand being tired of a visual style. Nothing wrong with that. I personally can't stand all these low detail crap cell phone look alike games such as the Secret of Mana remake.

Looks cool! I understand why people are sick of pixel art but it is very well done here.

@youkoaoshi Well, I am not a charity so I really don't care if a studio is too small to make a good looking 2D game in 2018. Nintendo's games may not be about graphics but you rarely hear anyone complain about Nintendo's graphics, they just make them look so good even though they are technically inferior to stuff on other consoles and PC.

Think about it this way, in the 8 and 16 it days developers did the best they could to not make their games look pixelated with weak hardware and today it's the opposite. I think many indie developers have a backward way of thinking. They think we want the pixels, we never wanted the pixels and we raved when a game looked great on the NES and the SNES.

@Crono1973 Some of us do want the pixels. You don't. That's ok. Just because we can make more complex graphics doesn't always mean best but I am all for some 16bit or 32 bit style 2d. You're speaking with your money and so are all the people that want it. Its just a style you don't like. That's about all I can say on that.

And many people complain about Nintendo's weaker hardware and graphics. I don't but its why so many games just don't make it over to the system. Nintendo themselves know how to make it work but not without sacrifice such as 30fps on Kirby, 900p on Mario Odyssey, or an inconsistent framerate on Hyrule Warriors. It can be looked at like ever since the Wii Nintendo has been a generation behind graphics wise. But to reiterate I love Nintendo and their style and philosophy that graphics don't make the game. Its why I've owned every Nintendo system since the NES.

@youkoaoshi People do complain about Nintendo's weaker hardware and graphics IN GENERAL but rarely about any specific game. For example, do people say that Mario Odyssey has bad graphics? Not that I have heard.

@GraveLordXD Not quite the same as making your whole game like that.

"It sounded good... Until the moment the words "procedurally generated" appeared. Definitely a no now"

100% agreed!

I dont understand why people hate these 2d indies if you want to build an empire start from scratch and work your way to the finer things. All of these indie devs are doing a great job.
They just need to make the 3d iteration at least 5 years after the 2d release

@AcesHigh Exactly. I am tired of all these people acting like you MUST like these games because it is made by a small indie dev team. Like you can't have your own taste because it is 2D "pixel art." Not allowing you to express your opinion or utilize your judgment because THEY happen to like it so therefore they must tell YOU why you also MUST like it.

We have every right as consumers to complain about something when it doesn't meet our expectations or standards. This whole complacency mentality is simply dishonest marketing when you really get down to it. Everybody has to be positive or oh no how dare you.

@dres

The game can be well made, but I don't have to like it. They don't deserve my or anyone else's adoration just for making a game, just as Nintendo doesn't deserve it automatically.

I said above, I recognise how brilliant Zelda 1 is (and honestly, I think Zelda 2 is equally brilliant, and I like the game even more). But both NES Zelda titles are really difficult for me to play because the graphics feel so dated. Give me a just a bit more, and the game wouldn't feel such a chore to play.

I recognise that that "bit more" can mean huge costs, much longer development times, and maybe not the financial turnaround to make up for what they put in.

While these devs aren't entitled to me liking their games, at the same time, I'm not entitled to them making a game a would like. They can keep making these sorts of games, and I will keep not buying them.

That's me. I don't understand it. But clearly there are people who enjoy them enough for these indie teams to keep making games like these. That's fine. I just wish I understood that enjoyment, because this is so anathema to me; it's everything we've left behind and moved beyond for this medium. I have absolutely ZERO interest in classic Rogue-likes (Moria, Angband, etc). I'd rather just play D&D with real people, if it's that much imagination.

Traditional Zelda games are heavily designed experiences. Procedurally generated landscapes don't mesh well with this.

Also, the pixel art style is ugly.

Pass!

@GraveLordXD Blah blah blah here you are droning on forever about why you feel a need to tell me why I should like something. No thanks.

@Crono1973 Exactly. We have every right as consumers to complain about something when it doesn't meet our expectations, and this whole "well you couldn't do better" mentality is just inherently flawed as we are not trying to produce a product to sell on the open market. The second you try to sell something is the second you open yourself up to scrutiny, consumers naturally criticize things they have to pay for as there is expectations for what you are spending your money on.

You can take this as someone selling art at an art fair. There is all sorts of amateur artists who do that, and just because you can't paint better than they can doesn't mean you have to go out and buy everything because someone made it. That is just a ridiculous consumerism mentality. As someone who is spending money on a product that somebody else produced, you naturally have every right to apply your own personal scrutiny if you don't like it. Does that mean everyone should feel the same way you do? Of course not. Does it mean you are justified to feel the way you do? Of course it does. Judgment and taste exists for a good reason, and the more experience people have the more likely they are to being critical. Going out of your way to try to like everything is a sign of arrested development.

@GraveLordXD Indi game development not meeting your expectations? What exactly are your expectations from limited resources?

Why do you think we should lower our standards for Indie devs? Damn, stop with the Indie worship.

@GraveLordXD So what you want is for dissenting opinions to be silent?

@Crono1973 As far as I can tell you are making absolutely no effort at understanding what @GraveLordXD is saying. You may wish to parse his comments a bit more closely and then respond to what he's actually saying.

@Crono1973 Pretty much. There is this niche hardcore fanbase of gamers who seem to take offense at every instance when someone doesn't love the same kind of games that they do. It is like they can praise it all day, but if you dare to criticize it you are somehow a problem.

It is just a part of this whole consumerism mentality that some gamers love to endorse.

@GraveLordXD When you see a game with bad graphics do you start searching for a justification? Do you think, the bad graphics are fine because it's an indie developer?

Well I don't. There are so many games out there that we can afford to be picky and I am not interested in the business of side of things. I don't understand consumers who act like board members first and consumers second.

@GraveLordXD Now that you are launching into personal attacks over this matter I think we are done here. You have a lot of growing up to do.

@Crono1973 This guy doesn't seem to understand what it means to have a contrary opinion. I see this kind of behavior a lot from fans. I would just ignore him at this point, he is clearly the type of person who feels a need to tell others what they should want and like.

I can tell you this, I didn't buy $300 hardware to play games made to look like they belong on the NES or the SNES.

@GraveLordXD Not siding with you =/= not comprehending your argument. I understand what you have been saying well and clear, the issue here is simply the fact that I do not agree with you. I have no problem with you loving these kind of games like you do, but you clearly have a problem with me and others not loving them like you do. This is why you need to grow up. You need to learn how not everyone is going to share the same opinion as you and agree with your perspective on media, this is as true for video games as it is for music, movies, art and literature. People are always going to have their expectations, tastes and desires, and just because theirs might conflict with yours doesn't mean you are justified to launch into personal attacks over a disagreement on such matters.

Trying to put others down and imply you are somehow superior for typing out paragraphs to justify your preferences only makes you come off as really insecure. Just grow up and realize how not everyone is going to value the same things as you do.

@GraveLordXD You keep saying the same things over and over again, expecting different results. At this point it is coming off as insanity.

@GraveLordXD Well that is sort of all on you at this point.