Hackers Get Linux Running On Switch And Claim Nintendo Can't Patch The Exploit

Holy snap, I hope piracy doesn't take off with the Switch.

There may be trouble ahead...

@Findonovan95 The more successful a console is, the more likely piracy will be a thing. Getting an R4 card for the DS was the easiest thing back in the day.

Lol how can they say it can't be patched? Coding 101: anything can be done.

I can't wait for that. The Switch would become the ultimate emulator machine.

• Perfect emulation on-the-go on a beautiful screen with sweet joy-cons.
• Nes games, PS1 games, PS2 games, Dreamcast, Gamecube , Wii, ...

ooooh boy

And even if you can't update the firmware after and play recent games, I would definitly buy a 2nd Switch just for perfect emulation. Totally worth it.

VIRTUAL CONSOLE CONFIRMED. (Just not by official means)

Why? Just why?

From what they've said in the past they're working on a very early firmware, so it's useless really (unless someone still has an early un-opened Switch lying around).

Maybe if we had vc earlier people wont jump into modding their software!! I want to play super metroid on my switch

Before the world freaks out, the Wii was hacked very early on and look how well it still performed.

Nintendo will devise ways to ban hackers from online play and folks determined to add things to their consoles will just do it, anyway, no matter how often we nag and moan.

Maybe this way we can finally tweak the main menu background from our variety of exciting choices. White. Black.

@Radbot42 I'm no expert, but I think the same thing. They found an exploit, why Nintendo should not be able to find a way to patch it?

PSP was hacked to hell and back and still sold like 80M units

Nintendo can't patch a hardware exploit without changing whatever is used to boot the exploit. Therefore any switch existing before a revision is open to it hacking.

Well, of all the entry points they could have used, I didn't think they'd go for the Joy-Con Hard Connection.

So, not a big deal for mainstream but holy damn you can be certain every single competitive Pokémon player is gonna buy one in the coming months. Pokémon Switch isn't even gonna last a day.

Keep your eyes focus on Original gaming way, guys.
Avoid those Hacking / Piracy temptation by activate horse sunglasses.

It was always going to happen, especially with the virtual console being so heel-draggingly M.I.A., and no doubt it will be busting with disgustingly overpriced emulations when it does finally come out, which will only spur on the endeavour.

However much hacking eats away at software profits it will never be enough to make a real dent in the fat wallets up-top, hence the ever-increasing production values of games, not the opposite. Plus It will only push hardware sales like the DS/R4 did.

I say bring it on if they're enterprising enough to do it, let them push it to the limits and have some good ole non-corporate fun!

Time to buy another switch. Switch sales will go up

@Radbot42 @LuckyLand The tweet mentions they exploit a mistake in the bootrom, which is the piece of memory the Switch first executes after you push the power up button when the system is turned off. ROM means read-only-memory, and to have a secured, unhackable system you pretty much need that the bootrom can not be changed (otherwise hackers can replace the code that starts the system with whatever they desire). As a consequence, the bootrom memory can only be changed by taking out the particular chip in a Switch device and replacing it with one without the bug, which is probably a tad expensive to do for all the Switches that are already out there. Of course, they will likely fix the chips of newly sold models.
By the way, a Coding 101 class that states that anything is possible ignores the Halting Problem and a related class of computational problems that can not be solved in general .
@nmanifold They attack the bootrom, which is already executed before the firmware (it is probably the part that loads and executes the firmware), so this must be a different type of attack than the one you are referring to. With a bootrom attack it seems likely they can just load any firmware code they want from the SD card.

@sirdupre Highly informative and awesome to know. Thank you very much.

@Radbot42 I am no expert but my guess would be that it is hardware related. They can probably update the firmware to patch holes in the code, but the hardware exploit remains. That can only be fixed in future console revisions.

Same thing happened with the Wii. Initially, there was access to the boot rom that just couldn't be patched through firmware updates.

@sirdupre I think that Nintendo could still patch a function that checks if the hack has been made and then either erase it or prevents the console from functioning anymore (it is stated that if you make changes to your console or try to hack it they are no longer responsible if it stop functioning)
Also if they correct the problem in the new consoles it would be a major drawback for pirates anyway: only a relatively small number of consoles could be hacked... it would only makes those older consoles more valuable for some people but people would know that they can't just walk inside a shop, buy their new Switch and hack it anytime.

I'll never download games, did it in the past, but now when im interested i spend money on it. The companies work hard on those games. And for switch i like it more than any other console.

This just forces Nintendo to spend money and resources patching things like this - It would be better for us if Nintendo could use those resources to help create wonderful games.
Shame on the hackers

@Radbot42 Exactly. There will be a patch to stop it from being a common occurrence.

Although, I struggle to see why this is news. No matter what Nintendo or other manufacturers do to prevent it, there will always be people who want it to do something else.

Take Apple for example, there are quite a few "Hackintoshes" out there. Home built PCs running macOS. It hasn't crushed Apple yet, they just add messages into the OS to troll people who do it. The effort involved isn't worth the headache of disrupting my experience either.

Majority of Switch owners will feel the same way, too. If isn't easy and will disrupt the Nintendo experience on it, they won't do it.

@sirdupre From my limited understanding and you writing that they access bootrom sector, I have but one question:

If they indeed just put a linux on the system and have booted it without going in the system, would it even count as hacking the switch? They don't have Switch OS broken and therefore it can't run any of the Switch games, no? At this point they just made a very backwards working linux machine that can be best used as an emulator of other systems and not the system itself, no? From my understanding, this thing actually does nothing for piracy and just helps with homebrew? I have not read these guys twitter or anyhting, so I might be misundestanding what's going on completely.

Show me a concrete example (some solid/proven facts and figures would be nice) where being able to put homebrew games on a console system, or even enabling software piracy and the like, has genuinely ever been "for [the] worse". . . .

What I'm saying here is that it's basically "for [the] better" as far as I'm concerned.

@The-Chosen-one What's your logic behind this, I'm actually intrigued, not trying to be dismissive. I personally find repaying and repaying for emulations of old games that evaporate when your console dies to be a complete fleece.

Emulation has it's place as a archiving medium and surely helps stop the exploitative eBay rip-off merchants who drive prices up, which nobody who made the original game profits from anyway. I don't agree with it 100 percent, but I'm going to play devil's advocate to open up the conversation.

@impurekind I tried to hack the first XBox because I did not like it and since I bought it and had it around I tought I could have some fun trying something different with it, I brought it to people who were used to hack consoles, and after a few weeks it stopped working.
Not that I cared that much because I never liked it, but it was a damage anyway.

@impurekind I reckon the homebrew scene has spawned a hell of a lot of bright sparks who have gone on to make some pretty awesome games - legit or otherwise. I'm with you on this.

STOP PROMOTING HACKERS

@Cosats Why? Without them, there be little to no headway in hardware and software development. Stop being reactionist and looking at 'hacker' as a bad buzzword like the press has taught you to and actually think of what it entails.

Hmmm, the thing is I want Switch games to work on my Switch. Tablets that will run Linux and have enough power to emulate SNES/GBA/N64/DS games are not a rarity. The un-hacked Switch is the more interesting platform.

@Rika_Yoshitake Many people bought the PSP because it could be hacked. The real issue is one of software sales after it gets hacked, not hardware sales.

@Spectra Hear, hear! They'd be nice full stop.

@impurekind "some solid/proven facts and figures would be nice"

It's 2018, there's no such things as "facts". And as far as the large mass media corporations are concerned piracy has always done far worse than it probably actually has.

But anyway, those in the video game business like to shout about and hold up as a beacon of truth piracy killing the Dreamcast. So there's no point asking a question about hard proof or facts, the industry is going w/ their mantra "piracy killed the Dreamcast", and by association also killed Sega as a console manufacturer. ipso ergo piracy on the Switch will kill Nintneod.

I don't agree w/ that argument, but I don't agree w/ much that passes as "facts" these days anyway. I'm just letting you know the standard reply to your question, which you probably already knew.

And if you didn't know, there's always Google.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dreamcast+killed+by+piracy&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjKjNT_6pPZAhXDqFkKHbutAloQBQgmKAA&biw=1440&bih=807

@sirdupre Thanks for the explanation. That's pretty much what I assumed. That "cannot be patched in a future firmware update" is not the same thing as can not be fixed in future models of Switch. If they sell 80m Switch but only 20m have the exploit that's nto the end of the world.

If they even bother to fix it.

Maybe we'll finally be able to play NES and SNES games on it now....

@rjejr excellent post.

@LuckyLand @progx The main problem is that any function that Nintendo patches is loaded by code that the attackers can manipulate. That gives them quite some power to hide their attack well, or to avoid such a function from being executed, if they would make an effort to do so. I do agree that it is not super likely many people will want to use this, especially if no user friendly way to do it is developed (and typically hackers do not care about user friendly stuff very much...). Also, times have changed quite a bit since the days of the Wii and DS with so many high quality, very affordable games in download stores.
@Hrimfaksi Their Twitter is super limited, it basically only mentions the bootrom and that it is a hardware issue, so I don't know what they did precisely. Loading Linux on devices is typically the main goal of these kinds of hackers, they don't really care about pirating games, but like to feel smart by figuring out how a system precisely works and then discovering flaws in it. When the Wii U was hacked, the people who did it explained that they did not really cared about making the exploit user friendly by building a 'homebrew channel', because by that time they felt everybody already had 20 devices in their house on which you can run Linux (which was different at the time of the Wii, when smartphones were not really popular, TV's were still 'dumb' and Raspberry Pi's did not exist).

I'm no fan of any form of stealing, but for the retro games I still legitimately own in one from or another, boy would I like to play them on switch. Playing GBA, GB or GBC on a 3DS is a compromise due to the lower res screen and the horrible and unnecessary antialiasing Nintendo forced on GB and GBC VC in particular. Plus no official GBA VC forces people to find ways around Nintendo's sometimes poor VC efforts. **That doesn't ever justify stealing** - but does justify a little creativity in finding better ways to play the retro games we've already paid for and still currently own in some respect. I want my Switch to be a retro game dream boat.

@HauntingNostrils Thanks.

@brunojenso Yes, "the ones you legitimately own". yes, and just those ones - *wink wink.

As far as I'm concerned: as long as they keep hacking shenanigans away from online multiplayer, they can do whatever the heck they want with their purchase. Just don't ruin it for other people!

The exploit is in the Nvidia chip. That's the downside of using an off the shelf chip.

@Octane And the popularity of R4/DSTwo cards completely destroyed the DS sales... oh wait =D

@LuckyLand It's not always that simple. Sounds like this is exploiting something in hardware, not Nintendo's software. Also, it may be intentionally tricky working, meaning that once hacked, Nintendo can't patch it. Similar to how once a 3DS is hacked, you can use special tools to patch/update your system and Nintendo has no idea the device is hacked.

@HauntingNostrils Do we have to have this same conversation every time a new emulation device pops up about the morality of piracy? Let's be real - You've been able to emulate Nintendo consoles for 20 years. Adding a new device capable of Nintendo emulation isn't doing anything to change that. For people that want to steal retro games, there's no shortage of free, easier methods to do that. For me? If I want to play Link to the Past or Super Metroid on a homebrew device without purchasing it for the 12th time (Only until VC is available, at which point I will purchase it for the 12th time) I don't have any moral qualms with doing so. And of course, there are other perfectly legal uses for homebrew, though admittedly piracy is the big one.

EDIT: If my post comes off somewhat agressive towards you, I apologize for that. Not my intent. My intent was just a general statement, that anytime Nintendo Life makes any sort of post on homebrew, flash cart, emulation news, people get all up in arms as if it is somehow enabling theft for the first time, when the reality is, 99% of people in the world have no shortage of devices they can use for emulation far more easily and cheaper, be it cell phones, PCs, an old Wii, etc... I'm not trying to change anyone's beliefs or morals. You do what you believe is right. Personally, I have no issues emulating consoles from 20 years ago, especially knowing that I will still buy those games when available, as I have many times over. I also understand that this exploit could very easily lead to bootleg carts/emulating Switch games, which I do have moral issues with, but that's a separate issue from the homebrew scene in general, which I believe to be very healthy for the community. Pardon the long post.

@roadrunner343 Having to use special tools to update your hacked console don't mean that Nintendo can't patch it, in fact it is the opposite! You have to get alternative updates made specifically for the hacked console because official Nintendo updates would recognize the hack and mess with it (disabling it or the whole console itself)

@roadrunner343 If you're implying I said otherwise, I never did.

@HauntingNostrils My logic that it's for the better, at least on a personal and consumer/gamer level, is that I've been able to play a whole load of amazing games on various consoles over the years that I never would have been able to play without homebrew/piracy, and that includes some very old games that are no longer in production on systems that are no longer on sale outside of the likes of eBay/Gumtree and collectors markets--I can't personally afford them either way--many of which I've actually used for research in designing and making my own games. And I'm sure this story, the first part at least, is familiar to many other gamers and the like too. So, for me and all those people like me, homebrew/piracy is actually a bit of a Godsend.

Homebrew/piracy is how I played the only currently available English translation of Mother 3 for example, which I now consider one of the greatest and most important games of all time, and I actively tell everyone I can at every given opportunity that this is the case:

https://inceptionalnews.wordpress.com/2015/05/11/mother-3-is-brilliant/

https://inceptionalnews.wordpress.com/2016/08/04/the-top-10-game-boy-advance-games-according-to-me/

https://inceptionalnews.wordpress.com/2016/08/18/my-top-games-of-all-time/

That literally would not have been possible [for now at least] without homebrew/piracy and an amazing scene full of dedicated translators who put in a whole lot of blood, sweat and tears to make it happen.

My logic that it's not for the worse comes simply from the fact that other than endlessly greedy corporations saying it's bad for business (with apparently no real data to actually support such claims that it's actually a loss as opposed to missing out of even more money that they were never actually likely to make anyway because they weren't genuine missed/lost sales*), and a bunch of random people online spouting the same corporate line just because they're trying to be heard and feel relevant in any way they can, I've seen basically nothing to support the assertion that homebrew/piracy actually harms the overall sales, critical acclaim, company reputation, personal enjoyment and whatever else of these games and consoles.

*My personal situation/experience and assertion is that most people who pirate games, or whatever else, wouldn't normally be buying them anyway, either because they can't afford them or they just wouldn't (I put myself very much in that category), so it's not a genuine loss; it's just another person playing your game, or watching your movie or whatever, who basically most likely wouldn't have done so otherwise (not if it means paying for it with money they don't have or don't want to spend). But at least now they're maybe spreading the word about and saying how much they actually enjoyed your game (or movie or whatever), presuming it's good of course, which imo is actually a good thing ultimately (especially if they weren't going to spend money on it either way).

@LuckyLand No, you don't - that was exactly the point of my post. Once your console is hacked that first time (Specifically talking about 3DS here) you are free to download official updates and make purchases from the eShop, with no issue whatsoever. No need to take any sort of special precautions for updates. The 3DS homebrew scene is quite mature at this point, though still a royal pain in the neck.

EDIT: I see. I worded my first post poorly. The "special tools" I was referring to was for the initial hack/updates. Once you're finished with the process, you can update/make purchases like normal.

@Octane Nope, I'm not. Sorry if it came off that way. Just a frequent retort to any type of homebrew/piracy is that it kills the system/software for said system. Which obviously wasn't the case for Wii or DS.

@impurekind Your post is a bit too long for me to get into specifics... so I'll just say, agreed =)

@impurekind I too have managed to play a lot of the games that have spurred my creative pursuits via "alternative" means, and it has often been the case that said games have either been unavailable, price-hiked, almost forgotten or the companies defunct.

I really would like to thank you for this insightful and intelligent response. I only hope more people read and understand it rather than have the typical knee-jerk, consumerist, reaction that they neither question nor have the wit or will to explore the boundaries of. Thank you, again.

@HauntingNostrils My pleasure, and thank you too.

At least they sell the Switch with a bit of profit. I wouldn't be surprised if nintendo had a physical kill switch installed in case of a hack

Now try to get steam to run

@roadrunner343 You didn't come across as aggressive, at least as I see it, and your points are completely valid and astute. This is a subject that I am very passionate about, so thank you for your post.

@HauntingNostrils Actually I'm completely serious - I never ever play a game I don't own physically, is borrowed from a family member or friend, or that I have paid for a digital version directly from Nintendo, Sony etc. I'm not judging others - everyone needs to make there own choices in life - but for me, even if I have stolen some things in my past I never want to do so again. It's just not something I'm comfortable with or that makes me feel good about myself.

I'm just yankin' your chain. Thanks not biting and thanks for your reply. You're exactly right - everybody should do what makes them feel right!

This is awesome! Would love to see kodi as an example running on switch. Then I'd actually have a reason to use it on the go, think it's starting to fuse with the dock...

@Rika_Yoshitake I was wondering where your avatar came from?

I only hope Nintendo doesn't over-correct their security to the point where the Vita was more secure than the PS4.

Linux is pretty what a raspberry Pi runs correct? so RetroPie on a Switch would be sweet AF

@Smash_kirby
Genshiken nidaime

@cfgk24 pretty sure firmware are security engineers are not the same people making games

@Rika_Yoshitake They claim hacking affects software sales not hardware sales. Hacking “sometimes” discourage third parties.

Bring on the VC games. Hackers doing what Nintendont. Would love to play some SNES, GBA, NES, N64 games on the Switch.

"Nintendo's consoles usually put up a pretty good fight"

Hahaha, good one

nobody needs linux

I heard this group in particular rarely releases these exploits to the public.

I'm more curious if the Switch can run PS2 or GC emulators, i might consider a second Switch just for that. Otherwise i might go for a GPD Win 2.

Or people could just install Linux on any old PC?

Time to buy a second Switch!

Oh man, if I could get a USB-C keyboard mount, bluetooth mouse, and a lightweight Linux distro, I could use the Switch for school and stuff. Other people might be excited for emulation, but I'd love for a (relatively) beefy netbook that plays official Nintendo releases to be a reality!

@SLIGEACH_EIRE
So much this

@Anti-Matter
SUN SHIELD MODE ACTIVATED.

@HauntingNostrils The correct terminology here is “cracker” and not “hacker”. The media has made hacker a bad word but what these people have technically done is called cracking.

@BlackenedHalo Except for servers, Windows is a minority there.

I mean, you never know... It was once said that a whole bunch of PS2's could be rigged together to make a super computer. Maybe a whole bunch of Switches with Linux could also become a Megazord Server!?

I know people want everything ported to the Switch but this is ridiculous.

For worse.... Not for better.

I don’t know, I’m not really into the whole hacking/emulators/homebrew scene. For those they are excited about this, good for you. I won’t be going outside the eShop for any of my games or apps

k

@Kejomo I'll just keep using hacker as cracker sounds too much like a rotund Scottish detective, or a derogatory term for a white person. Thanks for the update though.

@HauntingNostrils No worries

@BlackenedHalo I think we need it to exist - but I agree no one should have to actually use that hot mess

Hopefully this doesn't break the Switch like it did the Dreamcast. : /

This is amazing news if we can use the switch as a mini laptop as well it would be amazing, maybe play some emulation on the tv sounds great. This is better than the homebrew launcher which will be used to pirate retail games. it would be very tricky to do that with running Linux on the switch, would just add coll new features.

I see why some people enjoy the challenge, but there's no way i would want to mess with my $300 console just to play old games that can be played on much cheaper hardware more easily.

@Meowpheel

Exactly. People can put linux and emulators on a cheap raspberry pi or whatever. And even that is hardly worth the effort.

Those things actually have a significant impact on hardware sales for better, specially in third world countries where the software prices are beyond imagination.

Developers and publishers, however, take a major hit from piracy. And that can potentially destroy the 3rd party support or sequels for a game with low sales.

I hope for the best. Not trying to defend that or anything, but my 3DS is a much better system with GBA VC, full save data backup and region-free gaming, and I’m still buying the games I want to support. I would never go back to its original system limitations.

I just love how people praise hackers for these types of things and then get pissed when they use their "talents" to steal credit card info. To me one thing leads to another. If you want to play old games, there are other ways to do it. Clone systems or the original hardware are readily available. Good day.

Hopefully these kind of things lead to Nintendo finally making the browser accessible through the menu!
It was foolish of them to hide it out of fear for exploits in the first place. Nothing.Is.Unhackable.

The Switch hardware Sale will be fine. So long as this isn't such an easy hack that a computer illiterate person can do it, Software Sales will be fine too.

The only time Software Piracy really has an impact is when the System is completely Open. I believe only one console has ever made that mistake.

@Octane I remain convinced that an R4 card, an internet connection, and a DS may be the only gaming configuration a person would ever need in a lifetime (but piracy is bad and all of course .

They brick your 3DS if it has been tampered with like this and go online right? Not to mention later games require the latest firmware update to run as well.

Sure you could buy 2 systems, but seems a lot of hassle for you to jump through all the loopholes to play free stuff and whatnot...

Oh well, onto model 2 of the Switch, now more hack proof even ever. XD

Ah crap... Lets hope this does not end like the PSP

@shani It's like how Ubisoft is implementing DRM in all of their games, when they get hacked within a month or two anyway. Meanwhile, the people that bought the game are in effect punished with pointless DRM that renders their game useless if they don't have an online connection or whenever Ubisoft pulls the plug on the servers.

@Octane Exactly!

That said, while I'd also prefer DRM-free content (who doesn't?), I can live with it if it just means being connected to Steam/Uplay. Doesn't Uplay also have an offline-mode like Steam?
I'm online anyway, so it doesn't affect me.
But not having the browser on the Switch does somewhat affect me (yes I can live with it, but it would be a lot more practical in some scenarios).

@shani Possibly, but I'm certain you need to be online to verify your purchase. And whilst it isn't a big issue in the foreseeable future, I wonder what the chances are of downloading that game 10 or 15 years from now. I don't like being restricted for no apparent reason at all, and this is especially true if it means my entire purchase can some day cease to exist, not because it physically broke down, but because someone pulled the servers down.

But anyway, it's pointless. And the same is true for withholding a web browser on the Switch. It's there, it exists. Yes, it makes it a little easier for exploits, but those will happen either way. There's nothing you can do about it.

@Smash_kirby The ava is Rika Yoshitake from Genshiken Second Generation

#FOSSFTW

Piracy typically boosts hardware sales, but kills software sales which is where console makers make their money. Here's hoping this doesn't screw over the Switch.

@impurekind Many hacked consoles were banned, and those consoles can't be used for online play.

@impurekind Some people forget that certain cultural phenomena such as Undertale only exist because their creator started out with... ROM hacking- that same "dreadful" thing which many here are against. Homebrew can also start such phenomena as well. (Assuming Nintendo or another company doesn't annihilate it before it's prime.)

@Angelic_Lapras_King As long as proper tutorial steps are followed, certain workaround IP addresses are used to circumvent Nintendo's auto updater, and the user doesn't use cheats, the user's console will not be remotely discovered by Nintendo as being modded with a proper CFW setup on 3DS or Wii U. Even if it is discovered, bricking consoles would be illegal. They can only ban online access by console ID.

@Meowpheel This is the legacy of Sony abruptly cutting off Linux support for PS3 and not bringing Linux onto PS4. The PS4 was also hacked to be able to run Linux, since Sony wouldn'y officially support it. If Sony had carefully maintained their Linux program, they would most likely be getting all the attention, and no one would be bothering with attempting to bring Linux onto NS through roundabout cracks. After all, if another, much better available option exists, why bother building a scene around a difficult task that almost no one would benefit from? This is only happening because there are no official options for consoles.

"Nintendo can't patch the exploit" They can and they will...

@Radbot42 If it's a hardware flaw like with what happened to the 3DS last year, then there's nothing Nintendo can do.

😲 I hope they don't do it to my Switch

These particular team never releases their work, so I think we're safe lol.

And besides, how on earth can Linux possibly lead to anything bad? Everyone knows gamers don't use Linux

@PlywoodStick ROM hacking and piracy are two separate things. If the creator of Undertale only released patches, that would be perfectly legal.

@KcebEnyaw Yes, it was called the Dreamcast and, perhaps more than the PS2, hacking/cracking/homebrewing was the reason it failed and eventually forced Sega to go third party, no mater how wonderful the Dreamcast was.

I know Nintendo's in a lot better shape than Sega was at that point, but it's still for this reason that I say "down with hackers/crackers/homebrewers!"

@NinNin True, however, so many people say, "ROM Hacking and Homebrew leads to piracy, because humans cannot restrain themselves, and they need a guiding force/authority to tame them."

@MasterGraveheart Bleemcast and such didn't sink the Dreamcast, Sega sunk themselves with their history of very poor business decisions.

Nice. I doubt I’ll try this unless it ends up being as easy as the Wii hack was though, or even SNES Classic. I essentially only used the Wii’s exploit to add characters to SSBB and to play obscure SNES ROMs I was sure wouldn’t get VC releases (when I guessed wrong, like Super Mario RPG, I bought it legit on VC because I’m against it if it takes sales from the companies). I hacked my SNES Classic after I got bored with the titles and wanted more variety; it’s not like we have a VC on Switch to invest in plus all the games I added were ones we’ve never had rereleased on Nintendo systems.

Hackers are going to hack. Nintendo should just focus on a system that keeps hacked consoles off any official online services. My only concern with hackers is people cheating at online games. Splatoon got real nasty toward the end. Pokemon is famous for hackmon. Anyone remember Wonder-guard Spiritomb?

@PlywoodStick And the biggest irony is that Nintendo is using those same homebrew emulators in its SNES Mini, as far as I recall, because they're basically open source or whatever.

@NinNin That's a good point, although those cases seem to be very rare from what I can tell, and maybe a bit more like scare tactics to put people off even trying rather than something to seriously panic about. I mean, I've hacked or used emulators and ROMs on the likes of my GBA, Wii, DS, SNES Mini and a few PCs at this point, and nothing ever happened to me. Still, a decent example--but I'd still say the good far, far outweighs the bad.

@impurekind It isn't very rare for new consoles like the 3DS and Wii U. You can look it up. I don't think the GBA supports online play. The Wii and DS used a third-party online service. The SNES Mini doesn't connect to the Internet. Nintendo has no business with your PCs.

As for the emulator on the SNES Classic Edition, it's most likely developed by Nintendo. The emulator on the NES Classic Edition is developed by Nintendo.

@impurekind Yeah, many people aren't really against hacking/homebrew as a practice etc., but rather, against it when any group other than an authority figure group (Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, etc) use it. I know, because I've seen the flip flopping on this site in the comment section. "Well, the IP is Nintendo's property, so Nintendo can use other peoples' emulation work on their products as they please."

@NinNin So, basically, it's becoming a bigger negative for end users now, and will likely be a even bigger negative in the future for people that use homebrew hacks and emulators and piracy and get flagged, but historically it wasn't. And, to be very clear here, it's being made a bigger and bigger issue for any consumers that use it by Nintendo itself. So, to me at least, the argument that's it's bad for business seems even weaker than ever from what I can see (as the corporations are controlling everything ever more), and the corporations, who don't actually really seem to suffer from it much at all from what I can see (see my point above about them not really losing sales), are making the end users suffer for it just because they don't like people not giving them money they weren't and aren't going to get anyway. Basically, other than Nintendo itself making it so, it's really not a negative for the end users. And, unless you buy what the corporations are saying with very little evidence provided to back up their assertions, it's still not really a negative for the corporations. Sounds about right in line with where I was at the start, other than it now getting even worse for those end users who like to try to step outside the box every now and then.

@impurekind It's not only about piracy. Hacked consoles may be used to cheat online play, and that would cause frustrations to other players, and it can hurt Nintendo if it doesn't take action.

@PlywoodStick I don't think you can call it hacking/homebrew if it's an official service provided by the platform owner. I don't think most people are against hacking/homebrew, though. They are against piracy. If you hack your consoles to run homebrew games, I see no problem with that.

@rjejr I am fairly sure the lack of a DVD player killed the Dreamcast and made the Playstation 2 the winner.

@Cosats Some of the best game makers of the business started out by "hacking" their consoles and games. Factor 5 was founded by people who spent their time "hacking" systems to push them to their absolute limit, and the artform benefit from what they did.

@Florn Thanks!

They can't patch it but they could still block or ban your account from using their online service if you attempt to exploit this in any way.

@NinNin That's true, although that doesn't change the origin point. For example, in some cases, such as the Super Mario Bros. ROM on the Virtual Console, it was literally just a ROM that was originally ripped from an NES cart and purposed for NES emulators, which Nintendo later pulled and repurposed for VC.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-01-18-did-nintendo-download-a-mario-rom-and-sell-it-back-to-us

There was talk for years about Nintendo having the "nearest to perfect" emulation methodology to date, presumably using in house pristine ROMs, supported by the Wii being such an amazing emulation console despite it's technical weaknesses. As it turned out, the tech behind the console was the real deal, but the "near perfect emulation" story was all a lie.

Nintendo used the exact same product that pirates use and resold it. And yet people right here on NL (and presumably some others elsewhere) gave the excuse that it's Nintendo's IP, so it doesn't matter where the ROM is sourced from, and Nintendo can absolutely do whatever they wish with it. It's such an astoundingly huge irony. People are against piracy, but they're not necessarily against using the same pirated products so long as they're officially sanctioned.

The greatest tragedy of all, though, is that there may not be any pristine Super Mario Bros ROM's left @ Nintendo HQ in Japan. The real yet digital McCoy of one of the most important creative works in human history may be lost forever. If it wasn't lost, Nintendo would have used copies of it instead of using a pirate product.

@Radbot42 My first thought was that anything that patches this breaks games that are already on the market.

Getting Linux to run on a arm processor means nothing in its self. It is in fact fairly trivial. And it will not run switch games. The switch runs a BSD variant kernel, similar to PS4, With Nintendo and Nivida building a library set against which games are developed. In order for installing a new OS onto the hardware to mean anything you would need the ability to port the libraries over to the new OS. This is not a trivial task. The other option is to emulate the existing environment but this has overhead so you can not emulate on the same hardware that is already being pushed to the max. It is in fact far simpler to find a exploit in current code sets that would enable you to bypass any authentication checks. When we first heard of a unpatchable exploit it sounded interesting but if this is it, its just nonsense anyone who has access to a SPI programmer, a day or two of spare time, a switch they no longer what to play games on and background in hardware development could have achieved this from day one. Personally until the switch drops in price a lot I if I wanted a arm based Linux tablet there are much cheaper android tablets I would hack it into first.

@PlywoodStick Regarding the ROM file, there is no proof that Nintendo downloaded it from the Internet because it's a clean ROM file. It's true that Nintendo uses the iNES file format, though. By using the same file format, the resulting ROM files will be identical. It doesn't mean that if the ROM file that Nintendo uses is the same as the ROM file that is available on the Internet, then Nintendo must have downloaded it. Do you think other companies like Konami, Capcom, and Square Enix downloaded ROM files from the Internet because their ROM files are the same as the ROM files that are available on the Internet? Or are they the same simply because they use the same file format?

Anyway, even if Nintendo downloaded it, which I think is extremely unlikely, I don't see an issue because Nintendo is the copyright owner.

"The greatest tragedy of all, though, is that there may not be any pristine Super Mario Bros ROM's left @ Nintendo HQ in Japan."

You only need a cartridge to dump a ROM file.

I hope it's people practicing snd improving their hacker skill level. If not, it would be terrible if they just wanted to download free games.

Many customers buy consoles which are hacked to play games they can’t afford. Sometimes they buy original but mostly playing pirated versions. Anyway, that leads to more consoles sell and popularity of the console. And that attracts more developers to bring new games.
Sure Nintendo loses some, but gains some. Wii would never sold as much units if it wasn’t hacked. Same goes for DS, 3DS, etc.
For example, Zelda BOTW in Croatia costs 500kn, basic Switch 2900kn.. and my wife work whole month for 3000kn.

My point is.. if someone who doesn’t have much money buy Switch with Zelda and MK8 and maybe one or two more games in Switch lifetime and pirate all other games because he can’t afford them.. what Nintendo really lost?
Someone who can afford Switch with all it’s library played just Zelda and never touch it again.
Just saying

People should notice that Nintendo's biggest weakness against hacks since Wii are the hardware self, since they're not so advanced and is a lot easier to exploit it when to compare to PS4 and Xbone machines without hard modding.

Yes, Switch is the gimmick game console and so on, but in fact they uses the customized Nvidia Shield hardware that has an unfixable exploit.

@LuckyLand or a patch that searches for Linux stuff and then bans the console and puts a virus and makes Switch unplayable. That would be good option

Who is buying a £280 brand new console to play old games on it? I simply don’t understand... If you want SNES and NES games, surely a £20 DS Lite and R4 card is more cost / time efficient. So much crying over Virtual Console support, surely a potato can play old games in this day and age.
Home brew I sort of get because it’s interesting to see what people code for the machine (much like the Dreamcast) but emulation is, and always has been a grey area leading often to piracy hand in hand.

@Octane the easiest thing was hacking the psp though. Now THAT was a good piracy machine in all honesty.

Not pirating forces you to choose who to give your money to wisely, and gives you incentive to improve yourself. When piracy is ok, self discipline goes out the window. If I can steal my food and think it’s ok, am I really going to work my best and really apply myself to improve my works value to others? I don’t think so. When piracy is ok, willl I really ever feel I miss out on anything? Why even produce value at all if I think I deserve to enjoy the fruits of other peoples labour regardless?

@Mortenb I don't see how giving your money to giant corporate entities has anything to do with self-improvement, in fact, these people will leave us with no environment in which to improve anything, let alone ourselves. Piracy and self-discipline have nothing to do with each other either. You've become so deeply entrenched in the lies you've been sold that you believe products equate to self-worth. I suggest you reassess.

@Lthoise Yeah, I've been told before. I'm not a big handheld guy, so I never owned a PSP.

@HauntingNostrils What is Nintendo doing to limit your ability to improve yourself? And if they are why would you even want to play their games? The reality is, in my humble opinion, that before anything can be consumed, it must be produced. Piracy, stealing, and and other dishonest practices removes the individual from this basic fact of reality, also in my humble opinion. I fail to see any argument as to why the apparently obvious link between having to produce value before you consume it and improving one self to be able to produce more value, thus getting to consume the objects of your desire, is invalid. You simply assert something that is not in any way obvious. Can you not see why I would think this link exist? If you do see it, I suggest you spend your arguments explaining why this link is wrong, in stead of asserting is it wrong, and then suggesting I have been told some lie, which in fact is the opposite of what had happened. I have spent years untangling myself from the sort of culturally received “wisdom” you are asserting here, which, true or not was definitely something I was simply told. My current views I have reluctantly arrived at after actually having thought about it. It is a hard view to hold. In deed where ever I turn, I am attacked for it, which seems to me to be what people do when they want to perpetuate a lie.

@NinNin The fact there's even a possibility for the copies of SMB sold through the VC to not definitively be an in-house pristine copy associated with the original code which could only be accessible by Nintendo HQ, and not just any cartridge ROM dump, is cause for concern. I'm not sure how other companies handle their source code and ROM's, but Nintendo is the company providing the VC service, and providing "nearest to perfect" emulation is contingent on them. Given that there's even a potential for being from an outside source, there's no absolute guarantee that the VC implementation is any less imperfect than the average emulation.

I poorly worded what I meant by "a pristine copy of the SMB ROM." I meant directly sourced from the original code used to create the initial NES cartridge releases. In which case, it's a direct copy of the source code compiled into ROM data, not simply a ROM copy.

@SanderEvers I don't have an issue with Nintendo's copyrights. However, the fact there's even a possibility that what people are buying through the VC service is no different or better than a pirate's random ROM dump on the internet is cause for concern in my eyes. If it's sourced from a random cartridge ROM dump, then Nintendo is selling a mere copy of a copy, not a copy from the original source code only accessible by Nintendo HQ, as would have been the case for the data on the NES cartridges. If true, this devalues the integrity of the emulation, since it's ultimately not really any better quality than what pirates use.

Again, it baffles me that the exact same identical product used by pirates is okay when it's officially sanctioned, but as soon as it isn't, it's taboo.

@Mortenb I am not trying to attack you in any way shape or form, but I really do not see the link between creating and "value". If indeed you are able to see through the dense veil of culturally received wisdom then surely you would agree that all creative endeavours should ideally be pursued for the sake of creativity in itself not for the saleable, "value" at the other end of it. In a capitalist society, the goal, for companies like Nintendo, is to tap into and create trends and channel creativity into what makes money. This is not enlightenment, this is selling yourself and tearing the flesh from the earth in the name of creating plastic knick-knacks to fulfil the ultimately empty human illusion of ownership.

Also, Nintendo neither limit or enhance my ability to improve myself, and neither do hackers or pirates or any other entity other than myself. Therefore I see no link, or even need to bring the question of morality or personal amelioration into this at all.

I only softmod a console when the next gen is released. WiiU is modded, it's great!

I emulate all systems on my pc up to ps2/Wii as ps360 is still not great at all, tough systems to get running so that'll be a few more years. But I use steam etc. for last gen 3rd party games, so..

WiiU on pc is good, but you cants use gamepad on pc (yet) so I'll prob never properly use Cemu. Same with Citra.

As for the Switch, I'll keep my eye on this but I won't be hacking it for some years. Nintendo will still get my cash for a few years yet.

I really don't see the problem with hacking, modding, emulating old/last gen systems. Companies made their money and have moved on to the next system. It's a VERY small minority that will try this with the switch at the moment anyway.

But yeah, nintendo is right to send out an update to try block this. It's just part of gaming now a days.

I remember Nintendo asking $79.99 for cartridge games on N64 and the store next door was selling pirate CD's of PS1 games for 5 $.

@Flowerlark You're talking about a very grey, shakey, area here, and possibly an outdated idea. Owning the game does not entitle you to have the ROM as a "backup" as the ROM is spun off by someone other than the software creator and licence owner it is technically a modified version of said game, and thus hacked, and therefore illegal to own - no exceptions, unless it has been licenced and resold in this format.

I've read this fluffy-logic excuse for emulating so many times, even here, and it just doesn't hold up. I wholeheartedly agree with emulation as an archiving medium, and even as a tool to explore how games are programmed and executed and can be modified. But the pretence that you can get away with this kind of stuff legally is just a load of waffle.

@dimi OOF, those N64 carts/titles were really overpriced in Greece. But at least they were selling the real (yet digital) McCoy, not just mere copies of copies. That's a perfect example of getting what you pay for.

I agree with you. But if "they" could get money for selling backups they would...and probably will.

@HauntingNostrils I think there are certain notable exceptions. For example, what are we to do now that Sega has definitely lost the source code for Panzer Dragoon Saga? The real (yet digital) McCoy may well be gone forever, lost to history, a mere temporary footnote. The only way that most people can ever experience PDS is through emulation.

If shared public archival and experience by emulation is outlawed and punished absolutely, then when all of the remaining physical copies of PDS are inevitably either destroyed (intentionally or accidentally), or data decomposition eventually sets in at some point depending on environmental factors (e.g. http://www.cd-info.com/CDIC/Technology/CD-R/Media/Kodak.html ), no one will ever again be able to access PDS. It will have died a true death, remaining only as fragments of a memory in the annals of the internet... until those fragments are eventually also lost at some point.

This may seem a moot point to us, because... Why worry about a concept which has consequences ranging far into the future after our own lifetimes? What concern is that of ours? Well, in that case... why bother creating and maintaining museums? Why bother preserving anything at all for future generations?

Because it's worth it. Hopefully, doing the right thing should be a lawful act. But sometimes, as it turns out, doing the right thing does not always necessarily follow the law. Laws are created primarily for the benefit of those who create them, not for those who follow them. So I hope that at least some exceptions can be made for cases where emulation is the only remaining alternative to losing a good creative work forever.

@PlywoodStick A highly enlightened and insightful view. Thank you very much, I agree with you 100%, (especially your concluding paragraph!). It's posts like this that restore my faith in logic, and internet-based communication in general.

I am a huge fan of the ZX Spectrum/C64/Amstrad CPC era of computing, and there are more than a few handfuls of games that would have disappeared into the ether where it not for resources such as World of the spectrum and Planet Emu. These games are not just entertainment, they are an insight into the ideologies of a different cultural era. For me, it is as important to preserve them as it is the paintings of the Renaissance or any other historical artefact - when profit and law infringe on this preservation, and the free distribution of knowledge as a whole, I see it as a crime in itself.

Thanks again.

its linux and you have to do thie wierd mod to a joncon rail to just get it up and running. this is way to much for the everyday person.

Is this hack just to change the hardware to run linux with joycons? If so it's not great but I can't see many people choosing to turn the Switch into a PC. If it allows running an OS that can play Switch games that would be more of a problem.

@Darknyht "lack of a DVD player killed the Dreamcast"

Well that;s your opinion. Mine is Sony's all out PS2 graphical prowess marketing blitz for games like The Bouncer (which killed Square by turning all of their focus to graphics, haven't been the same since) killed the Dreamcast. Others say they just weren't interested in getting burned by Sega again after 32x and Saturn.

But the video game industry always says piracy. It's like their shining beacon of anti-piracy. I wonder if Wii U will ever be held up as such? Probably not , nobody knows what it is. Dreamcast had everyone's attention when it released, but people just held out for PS2 instead. 155m of them, so at least it wasn't' killed by a fluke.

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called Linux, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called Linux distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

@NinNin Well, cheaters often made my life hell when I was playing Counter Strike back in the day and I was actually playing with an official copy of the game. So, hacking was good for them and bad for me. I still wouldn't get rid of this kind of thing for that reason though, because the benefits do once again still far, far outweigh the negatives. I mean Counter Strike (one of the greatest online multiplayer games ever) itself is basically a "hack" of the original Half Life code, or a fan MOD to put it another way--and I'd hate to think of a world where Counter Strike never got made because Valve decided to shut down anyone that even tried to do something new and creative with its original game idea and the underlying code. And, to be fair, that example of people cheating online is more about the cheating part than the hacking/piracy part. I don't think it's homebrew/piracy that generally leads to people hacking and spoiling online gaming for others though; I think that's a different problem in and of itself for the most part. And let's not forget that people can find ways to exploit games and cheat without every properly hacking or pirating them at all, and I expect a lot of the online cheaters are simply going down that route (find some in-game bug and exploit use it to high-heaven). But, it is still another decent example of a negative that can arise from people messing around with game code and hacking and stuff.

@HauntingNostrils Thank you. The point is, if you want something, you value it, and unless it was given to you or abandoned somewhere, you should give up something that others value more than they value that thing that you want. If one does not live by that rule one can simply sit in ones basement consuming, apparently with no restrictions of reality applying. There is no exception for creative endeavours, letting them exist outside the restriction of reality.

I still find your view highly reductive, but I thank you for your input and opening up a different angle on the conversation. Best of luck on your way.

@Radbot42
Supposedly the flaw is in the boot rom, so the only way to fix it would be to physically replace the tegra x1 chip. Nintendo could get Nvidia to fix this on future consoles, but it should work on any console manufactured before it is replaced, regardless of updates.

Nice, looking forward to the possible future homebrew and emulation.

Also, since when is modifying hardware and software you own illegal? And where?

Cya
Raziel-chan

@c2017nlifemedia Richard Stallman, is that you?

@Radbot42 It can't be patched with software updates because it's hardware exploit. nintendo needs to make a new batch with new revised hardware to patch it.

@Cooroxd @Radbot42 I do agree with you Cooroxd but a huge problem for nintendo is they can't patch all of the current switches which is a problem because they've sold so many already.