Yesterday with joyous glee we reported that Sega Forever had launched on smart devices, and we touched on some comments from Sega Networks' chief marketing officer Mike Evans about the possibilities of bringing the collection of games to Switch as they are built using Unity.
However, it seems that the wheels have already come off the Sega Forever train in a fashion not entirely dissimilar what we experienced with Capcom's woeful efforts with Mega Man Mobile earlier this year. In a nutshell, the emulation is really subpar. Don't just take our word for it though, Digital Foundry's John Linneman is a trusted authority on such matters:
Expanding on this, Linneman says:
The games are designed to run at 60 frames per second. This emulator tries to do that but drops frames resulting in something that looks more like ~45 fps or so. There are loads of dropped frames, hitches and skips, 30fps is bad, but an even, stable 30fps would have been better than this. The issue here is that it skips and stutters during gameplay. And when a notification occurs, it gets much worse. So it never plays smoothly.
At this point you might be asking yourself how Sega managed to screw all this up so badly. Surely it should be able to emulate a Mega Drive game on a smartphone in 2017? It seems part of the answer to this is in the hasty decision to use Unity for the project, rather than RetroArch which would have been a much better fit.
Here's what the RetroArch dev's had to say:
This feels kinda like watching a trainwreck unfold. Sorry to all the people that are experiencing subpar performance with this Unity thing; they could have been using RetroArch right now if they hadn't been so stubbornly insistent on demanding we relicense our entire program to something that would strip us of all our rights, on top of some other unreasonable things like not showing any branding, etc. Hell, they could have had this running on the desktop right now on top of consoles and maybe some netplay as well. Oh well...
It appears that Sega did initially reach out to RetroArch for assistance with getting Sega Forever off the ground, however there were numerous reasons why the two parties could not come to terms on this. It's a crying shame as we initially felt quite positive about the whole idea of Sega Forever, but even starting with the emulation of 16-bit classics, the execution has been truly woeful.
Have you tried out any of the Sega Forever games for yourself yet? Let us know your thoughts on this whole debacle with a comment below.
[source eurogamer.net]
Comments 118
Utter garbage. The touch screen button interface feels horribly unresponsive. It made Altered Beast almost unplayable for me.
Reading what the RetroArch dev's had to say on the matter, I can understand why Sega didn't want to work with them.
Dang, I'm laughing hard right now!!!
Ninten do what Sega doesn't.
So much for that pretentious load of drivel spouting out of that SEGA promotional video the other day. The relationship between players and games yeah?
Laughable. Typical. SEGA.
Same here : Altered Beast is awful on the touch screen.
As for the lousy emulation, I totally trust @dark1x.
So...
Hopefully Sega listens to this and patches their games!
RetroArch talks sound like a bittersweet whatcouldhavebeen, but then again, as Lauren Faust pointed out once, big companies don't usually take on something they can't control completely. And from a corporate point of view, it's not hard to see where they're coming from.
There are few "it's not just about hardware horsepower" wake-up calls like when you see an SMD game struggle to run well on a 2017 smartphone indeed, especially when you've already seen it run pretty well on the comparatively decade-old PSP before. But the dice is cast and the worst case scenario here would be to see the service canned. If APB's PS4 release started out with tangible framerate issues (even controlling the camera and moving was a pain) and got better later on, then I see no reason not to hold the Patch Age we're living in to more expectations.
As for "Altered Beast is awful with touch controls"... insert Nicolas Cage face here. Sega did say the service should support gamepads out the gate, at least.
This is a shame.
Especially when you think about what could have been. If Sega had been wise enough to support Retroarch, this would have been a great step in the future for gaming.
It's too late to hide piracy. Helping pirates become legit buyers can only be done with (at least) just as good emulation. Having the support of Retroarch = just that.
Or give us even more, and the SEGA 3D classics on the 3DS were exactly that. But free 2 play + fps issues ? Ugh.
A real shame
That's SEGA for you these days.
Damn it was really looking forward to this, especially as it has a dreamcast in the advert and also a game gear
Shame...
Hahaha, so that chuck norris inspiration backfired on them. Even getting inspired by chuck norris, kills the whole business.
@nhSnork
SMD? APB?
First Capcom, now Sega. Why do these Japanese video game icons feel they can fob any old fecal matter off on mobile devices and nobody will notice? They're only damaging their own reputations. It's even more maddening when you see what can be done, and has already been done for far older smartphone generations. Capcom's MHFU and Sega's Sonic CD are both perfect ports on smartphones.
Totally unplayable on Iphone4s.
I noticed the slowdown in Comix Zone when I tried it on my iPad Pro and found it pretty bad framerate-wise and pretty consistently too. It's mostly the 'same old, same old' Sega games anyway, so this is hardly appealing.
I know developing for Android and iOS makes sense from a business standpoint, but in practice, I don't see the point of this. At least the Taxman Sonic re-releases had effort put into them. If they're doing straight up emulations, I kind of wish they'd just put that effort into working on Switch Mega Drive VC releases (unless they're waiting and/or working with Nintendo to make a uniform Mega Drive emulator)
This is hilarious. 😂
Sonic 1 also now forces ads on me despite me having purchased it several years ago. Restore purchases times out.
Same old Sega.
@BornInNorway81
SMD = SEGA Mega Drive
APB = That's just the name of a game on PS4. I think it stands for "All Points Bulletin"
I tried out Sonic 1 and it was just the already existing port, but I guess it actually worked at least.
So...
The experiment went Wrong, eh ?
Aside from the grange controls which can be solved using a controller. I don't mind sega forever
@neufel Helping pirates become legit buyers can only be done with (at least) just as good emulation.
It's worth pointing out this is the philosophy behind Steam as well. You beat piracy by offering pirates a service that's better (read: faster, more reliable and more convienient) than what they already have. The sooner companies like Sega or Nintendo realize this, the better, both for their pockets and for their customers as well.
@Spoonkid51
You can on Android, U can`t (at least not that easy) on iOS.
@premko1 maybe it just requires a high end device to run properly I've been having a good time on a IPad Air 2
Shame SEGA dropped the ball on this. Their PC ports lately have been great. Bayonetta PC is the definitive version of the game, better than WiiU. Vanquish PC is the definitive version of the game.
Unity is bad though either way.
@Sinton
Read more. If you read what the Retroarch guys said, it sounds as though Sega used them for a couple weeks, decided to go their own route, and dropped them so they could cheap out. And this is the result. The Retroarch guys seem a bit naive, but they seem to have acted a whole lot more ethically and professionally than Sega.
It's better than nothing, right?
What a damn shame! DONT bring to Switch if will be like this!!!! terrible decision to use unity it seems!
@AirElephant Taking your dirty laundry to the media/public, is hardly professional.
But it is for free. We do not have the right to complain...
It's a shame, would've been fantastic if this worked well and made Nintendo's Classic Game Collection for Switch look bad being locked behind the online subscription. With game companies, competition is the best outcome for the consumer. Oh well, at least Xbox One's backwards compatibility service is around to make people realize how ridiculous VC upgrade fees are.
Surely someone tested it before launch?
High hopes for Dreamcast and Saturn games running smoothly!
@setezerocinco They're getting ad revenue. We have every right.
My guess is it will run a lot better on consoles, but this is a horribly botched launch either way.
Unity is Sh*t, lazy devs can't even build their own engine anymore.
@setezerocinco It's not free, it's full of ads you can remove if you pay.
And if no one complains about quality and yet no one downloads upcoming games, they will can the project saying "no one is interested in those old games, we won't port them for the next 10 years". And that's not what we want, right ?
I doubt unity was the issue, it can do great things in the right hands, this project seems to have just needed more time and effort.
It's insane that they offer emulation worse than the free mobile emulators. You read the M2 interviews and wonder how they can do a 180° from that level of craftsmanship.
Sonic 1 seems to be working pretty well on Android... Are the other games bad enough to justify calling this a "trainwreck" and a "debacle"?
@setezerocinco
If someone punched you in the face would you say 'well, can't complain'.
Now sarcasm quotes are included for the little minds: "maybe the paid version runs at 60 fps..."
The emulation might suck but at least the ad is awesome
It's free classic games, with the entire catalogue planned over the next couple of years including Saturn and Dreamcast games. Will they be patched? Almost certainly. I think this is a great thing for fans and gamers, and would remind people that big-budget premium titles like Battlefield, Sim City and even GTA didn't work as intended at launch.
Well, yeah... These games weren't meant to run on a foreign API script on a language being used nearly two or even almost three decades after their release. Direct emulation along with USB or Bluetooth controllers or adaptors is always going to be better. They could have managed it another way for Genesis games at least, there's a history of SNES games like Shin Megami Tensei being reworked to function properly on mobile. (Unity was not used though, it actually used the GBA port as a base)
Retroarch has a point, but yeah, there's no way that any big company would have agreed with their open source and nonprofit philosophy. It's not just Sega, this could just as easily happen with Nintendo as well. (Remember how Nintendo refuses to use a perfectly good fan translation of Mother 3, offered to them on a silver platter?)
Not to mention it was difficult to emulate Dreamcast on mobile until fairly recently. How well is your mobile device able to emulate GameCube games? How well would Nintendo pull that off? Yeah... Exactly.
The only one that really stood out to me when I played was "Kid chameleon", the emulation was terrible. The Sonic played perfectly because it was the remake rather than Emulation but the other three played well enough on my phone and tablet. With the exception of Phantasy Star II, they all really need a physical controller to get the best out of them. But aside from KC being unplayable the others were fine for me.
I'll stick with the Sega 3D Classics on my Nintendo 3DS which uses a D-PAD AND BUTTONS! Even if the emulation was perfect, why would you use a touch screen (or flap around setting it up to use a controller).
@RadioShadow I don't understand all the "no controller" comments... It takes one minute to set up a Bluetooth controller.
Sega... so much fail.
I think Comix Zone runs the best from all, not that is real smooth but it's not that bad...
Console games designed for input from tactile buttons shouldn't be running on smart devices, anyway. It was a failed concept to begin with.
I don't expect Sonic Forces to be anything but Sonic Farces at this point. It looks good, but even feces can be polished.
Sonic 1 was unplayable after level 1 due to awful pretend dpad.
Even if the emulation was good playing these games with a touch screen is not. Sega games really belong on consoles such as Switch, PS4, Xbox one or anything with a traditional controller.
Hmm, odd. I tried installing Altered Beast on my Chromebook last night and it ran flawlessly. I need to try it with an Xbox controller next, shame it won't accept keyboard inputs.
@ROBLOGNICK same time out for me. and the worst thing is: even if the restore purchase would work you would still get SEGA ads! I bought the game ad-free originally! wtf?!
Shame about the issues, hopefully they'll smooth things out over time. That said, haven't some of these games been ported over to modern systems many times before? Did these work flawlessly, or were they marred by issues as well? If they worked flawlessly, then what's gone wrong with this conversion?
Oh so this was it... I had wondered if it was due to my phone's memory being eaten up with unclosed apps. Comix Zone was quite unplayable...
Ok Sega, time to Switch to a tablet of a different kind.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B017PAX040/ref=mp_s_a_1_17?ie=UTF8&qid=1498134784&sr=8-17&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=Bluetooth+mobile+controller
Woooooah, no way, I can't believe it, you can play Mega Drive games... on your phone... With a SNES controller Bluetooth knockoff? And it works!?
😱 NO WAAAAAAAAAI
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01K1T9CZS/ref=pd_aw_sim_63_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=545PAFF5GMEEC5FTX7DF&dpPl=1&dpID=310af22trwL
Holy crap... You can use your Wiimote or Pro Controller too!? Lord have mercy...
@eltomo If they can't even emulate the Genesis properly, I doubt they'd be able to pull off Saturn, which doesn't even emulate well on PCs. Maybe they'll just port over the PC version of Nights. Ditto with Dreamcast, quite a few of those games have been ported to PC and other platforms.
Well, that didn't take long.
@Nintendian Unity is a very capable engine in the hands of proper devs, you'd be amazed how good it can look and run.
tried phantasy star 2 & its a train wreck
@Asaki SSF and Yabause actually work pretty well at this point with a lot of games. SSF is much better, though. Using Daemontools to simulate disc swapping, you can even play the elusive Panzer Dragoon Saga from start to finish, albeit with SSF 0.12 Beta 3, since Beta 4 screwed it up somehow. Which is perfectly okay to do, because Sega's dumb asses lost the source code and no one will ever remake it.
What a shame, I'm not even going to bother with a download at this point. Really makes you wonder how something like this gets tested, (if at all) and how they thought it would be acceptable to potentially paying customers.
In the words of The Batter (Off), 'It's better that way.' In reality, RetroArch has, time again and again, got its software essentially stolen and stuffed into commercial boxes (including the Retron 5), then had their source code hidden in violation of the GPL. Sometimes, the commercial box even adds emulators whose licenses have non-commercial clauses.
In all, I would much rather have this than RetroArch be shafted again.
Monkeys.
well i played a few and had no issues whatsoever, as in NONE they all played fine
although i only played Sonic, Phantasy Star 2 and Comix Zone
also my tablet is about 3 years old so it's not exactly a new state of the art one either
When the new sonic game turns out to be a buggy trainwreak then Sega has my permission to die.
@Anguspuss Can you elaborate? Of all the games, you'd think that would be the least affected by touchscreen controls and framerate skips.
@MarkyVigoroth And that's why people should use RetroUSB AVS instead of anything from the crooks at Hyperkin.
Well, I was wondering yesterday what the comment regarding Unity could mean, cause it confused me. Guess I got my answer now.
This is the umpteenth time where just doing it yourself is going to net yourself a better experience than using one of these "official emulation" methods.
@PlywoodStick
The AVS is such a good machine. Yeah, it's a little cheap looking and plastic-y, but it does works so well!
Not good.
But why is anyone giving that whining crybaby who controls Retroarch even a line of press? What an arrogant butthat. This is a Sega production, there's no way in hell they'd allow the Retroarch menu with their name on it be prominent, let alone have anything in sight. That's NORMAL. Anyone who gets their emulator/front end package licensed gets retooled to a shadow of itself so the buyer (would be Sega in this case) would have their logo and system branding up front. They're not in the game of making retroarch look cool.
What a selfish whiny grandstanding attention seeking egomanical toolbox. Also par for the course if you see that trolls rambling online.
@BornInNorway81 Sega Mega Drive and All Points Bulletin, respectively.
@TheGameSquid RetroUSB also has Genesis/Mega Drive USB adaptors, which could possibly work with a tablet on a kickstand and USB to micro USB adaptor for the classic titles here... Kind of a weird setup, but it works.
@tanookisuit We never asked for this, stop misrepresenting what we said. All we asked for was a simple 'powered by' logo at startup, could have been less than a second. They do it for Christian Whitehead with his 'Sonic the Taxman' games, it shows his company's logo/engine for more than a second, you see the Unity/Unreal logos in nearly every game. We are not the world's biggest fan of splash screens and we don't like how long it takes before you can get to the game so believe me, we would have acted in the user's interest there and we would have been fine with just a little. Hell, even an acknowledgement that we worked on it stuck somewhere on the title screen in a corner would have been sufficient.
BTW, I remember your name from way back during the Retron5 fiasco, and you were whiteknighting for them. Perhaps you would like to make people aware of that so it becomes a bit more apparent why you would want to drag our name through the mud, you indirectly sided with people who were abusing us, and made arguments to the tune of 'they can perfectly do this, oh it's all fair game, blabla'. So I don't think honestly you have room to talk given such lack of moral scrupules.
I'm not surprised in the slightest that this was a disaster. I got my popcorn ready the moment that this was announced
Welp, back to daydreaming of that Sonic 3 and Knuckles Remaster then!
@tanookisuit Someone's Cheerios took the receiving end of a golden shower... Sega wanted to mooch off of Libretro's work, and violate the GNU Public License by not crediting them. Of course Libretro's response was going to be "WTF?"
Altered Beast emulation is bad indeed. Sonic 1 however is very decent. Although I can't get my Moga controller to work despite saying it being compatible with the game.
Fans: "Nintendo never does anything right!"
90's Fans: "Sega Does what Nintendon't"
Nintendo Fans: " We want VC! Where is VC! It's been 3 months and we still don't have access to the retro games, when are you going to sell them to to me for the 8th time in 5 years, Nitnendo!? Where is NES Mini, all of them sold out in a day...we want more, we want infinite, it's so awesome! They didn't handle it right, they're all gone, I'm never buying anything Nintendo. WHERE'S SNES MINI PREORDERS!!!?"
Sega Fans: "For everything that's good in the world do NOT Touch Sega's retro games product. Like, at all. Ever. Just don't. It's awful. It's a trainwreck. Just ignore it. Seriously."
I think it's a good time for that Sega rebranding. Like Ubisoft, they need a new logo that really embodies the new vision of the company. Something like this would do:
Ah, Sega. . . .
Aaaarrrrggghhhh, Sega!
Decided to give Phantasy Star II a whirl against my better judgement and not only it runs like a turd but the ads also didn't go away after the purchase: app simply crashed midway through and now I have $1,99 less in my account and an ad riddled uplayable mess. WAY TO GO SEGA.
A shame that, yet again, official emulation has been released in a poor state. It is a pattern that goes back to the 90s. I've come across bad emulation and poor options so many times. And, of course, Capcom recently had problems with mobile. I was hoping Sega would do better since they had M2 do excellent things on 3ds.
@Hikingguy They still make those?!? NOW I know where all Sega's money has been going. They've been using video games to float their burgeoning food licensing business....
Still...that's awesome!
Edit: The next time I hear the ice cream truck, I suddenly think I'm going to have to make a dash for it.....
Haven't even tried this out yet... And now I certainly don't plan too
Glad this mess only on mobile as of right now.
@NEStalgia Dude, your Sonic cream got jacked up. The one I got about 20+ years ago had much better symmetry. The blast ice cream processor made it play way better with my taste buds than the fugly Mario cream. I wish I could show it to you, but I... Uh... disposed of it... To be fair, my body forced me to do it.
@PlywoodStick It accurately reflects the evolution of the Sonic character over the last 30 years.
Also, do you not mean Blast Freezing?
I called it, I knew it, ha ha ha ha, oh Sega, never change XD
Nintendoes what Sega can't.
"Welcome to the neXt level".....
The very fact that unlicensed emulators can emulate the Megadrive with near perfect accuracy, without using something stupid like Unity, makes me think Sega is too freaking lazy to put for any conceited effort into anything. No wonder they left the console business.
Sega is really bad when it comes to quality assurance. You can't trust them to deliver a quality product. The ads and the fact it's only 1.99 to remove ads despite handing out eventually dozens of games stinks of them paying the fewest amount of programmers the lowest amount of money for just enough time to get it working to maximise profit.
Yhe only reason the 3DS Sega VC stuff is good is because M2(who also did the GBA VC) were doing it.
Dear Sega - no one wants to play Golden Axe or Panzer Dragoon on a friggin' smart phone. Port your entire catalog to Switch and then work your way backwards - you numbskulls.
Oh dear.
@FantasiaWHT sounds like its on speed
Just gave Comix Zone a shot a few minutes ago, and yeah, it's indeed pretty terrible. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of slowdown, but frames are CONSTANTLY dropped.
Also, upon opening a game, it starts by saying "Connecting...". Not sure what the hell its connecting to. Then it says "LOAD FAILED". Once again not sure what it failed to load.
Anyway yeah, don't bother with it in its current state.
@mikegamer
Unity works just fine. I don't like using it personally, but I would definitely give it a go if I was making a professional game full-time. It has just gotten a bad name because it has been used by many incompetent developers because of its low barrier to entry (tech-wise and money-wise). I'm pretty sure Unity is basically used as the front end here, a bit like RetroArch is a front-end to the libretro cores. The emulators themselves aren't built within Unity (at least I hope...)
Now I'd rather it didn't come to Switch.
Come on Sega, how did you screw something as simple as emulation up? Thankfully the Sonic 1 port isn't affected since it's just the previous version, now just free-to-play.
@Dr_Lugae Funny how companies that aren't Nintendo and Sega write better emulators than the original hardware manufacturers do. M2 wrote the GBA and Genesis emulators, NERD wrote the DS emulator. They should've hired either one of those.
Speaking of botched. Why is there STILL no US/EU announcement of something well emulated like the second (third in Japan) SEGA 3D Classics collection for 3DS? Nothing at E3, AFAIK.
@mikegamer
Thing is, Sega already released a crap-ton of Genesis games on iOS and Android already, and the emulation was top-notch. The games played perfectly.
So we know they're capable... they're just being lazy and going the Unity route.
Well after watching the trailer it's no wonder it doesn't play the way it should. Maybe they shouldn't have relied on that mad scientist to make it happen. They probably should have got programmers.
Been playing sonic on my iPhone 6s with no issues. I've been using a bluetooth controller so I can't comment on the screen controls, but, I haven't noticed any frame drops.
I will say it stops recognizing my controller after ads, but, I can just pause and unpause with touch controls and it goes fine.
They own all the amazing games and they do this poopy!!! they cannot even get their own games to run properly. Its laughable and ultimately very sad at the same time. I wanted this to just be great.
Just make a new Outrun, Hang-On and Golden Axe for christs sake but strictly 2D.
@setezerocinco It's not free, it's ad supported, so we pay with information.
They used Unity so duh. Morons.
Is this even out in the UK or iOS yet? Didn't see it on the app store when I searched yesterday. Noticed the Sonic games received an update to accommodate this. Hope they haven't ruined them. It would be just like Sega to let Christian Whitehead work his magic and port a Sonic game well and then destroy it with their own incompetence.
And yet again, piracy beats the legitimate options. Who do they think they're kidding?
Works fine with my 8bitdo SNES30 controller.
Who ever wanted to play these classics with touch screen buttons, are out of their mind. That is just not the way to play them, so let it go.
No matter how good the touch screen controls are, it will just never come close to using a proper controller. These games where made with those precise input control's in mind. Everything less is just a waste of time.
Just go play some Rayman Jungle Run and Super Mario Run, that was made for touch inputs, if you do not have a physical controller.
And another Japanese developer screws up a game on mobile.... Why can't they bother to make sure the emulationat least works relatively decent before releasing it?
Unity is actually a wonderful game engine. It just gets blamed for bad developers mistakes.
Can you blame RetroArch for not wanting to bend over for Sega and mucking up licensing, over-complicating the process? Sega should just write better emulators or hire M2.
Played a few levels of Sonic before remembering touch d pad controls are terrible and Sonic was never fun anyway.
Tried playing them on my Shield TV... Controls didn't even work and then the app crashed. What a load of junk...
Went back to using my Arc Browser + RetroArch combo after that.
I might sound super ignorant, but I say it anyway: That's what you get when it is free!
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