Soapbox: No, Star Fox Zero's Controls Are not Bad or Broken

So.....you guys said the same thing for Kid Icarus Uprising and yet you praise the hell out of the game.....but yet now you say that at first Star Fox Zero's controls were bad and now you claim that its good?

Now while its too late for me to get the Wii U and that I'm not getting it, it seems to be the only game that makes use of the gamepad....why couldn't this game come out at the same time as Uprising to help boost sales?

I'll probably just play with the gamepad and ignore the TV

Can't watch the video right now but I'm not too worried about the controls TBH. It'll be a new angle on the game I might really like and the Co op options sound great. Has the final nail been put in other multi-player options yet? I've not heard anything about online or vs modes for ages now so I'm assuming yes....

@ULTRA-64 I think anything could happen with updates and DLC later, but it is pretty unlikely. It is for sure not having multiplayer (outside of the Co-op) at launch.

Not the most promising compliment tbh.

I know a lot of people were struggling with the game at E3 last year, but I really enjoyed it. Most people just weren't using their charge shots, which is kinda a big deal in Star Fox. I just figured those people weren't as good at Star Fox as me, even though I suck at the games but I love them anyway.

I thought the controls were really fun.

In Hashimoto we trust.

I'm pretty excited about the control scheme myself. Since splatoon's control scheme made me like shooters much more I hope star fox (which is another genre I'm not a huge fan of) will also be more enjoyable. Never been this excited for a starfox game before.

Considering how good they were in Splatoon, I'm not worried about motion controls

It certainly is different then Nintendo's normal intuitive anyone-can-play control schemes. I would think having to learn to play the game would be a turn off for a lot of new users. Especially since this will most likely be a lot of people's first Star Fox game.

I'll need to try it out before judging whether I like the controls. So far, it doesn't sound good, though I do love the motion controls in Splatoon after a short amount of time getting used to them.

I for one, hated the motion controls in splatoon so I'll be turning them down on here to a bare minimum if I don't like them, do I have to look at the gamepad? I want to play like classic star Fox looking at the big screen in third person not looking at the first person on the gamepad, I don't want another Kirby rainbow paintbrush situation where I can't look at the big screen!

@Yorumi It didn't take me a hour to get use to the controls. It took me a minute and I was at E3 at the time, lots of distractions. They are pretty easy to get use to, the hard part is moving your eyes between two screens.

@DefHalan makes sense I guess from what I've seen. I'm not keen on full modes sold as dlc but I'd take it with this in the same way I'd still like a mk8 battle mode adding. Not like that going to happen!
I'm not fussed by online but local vs is a major highlight from sf64 for me personally.

@DefHalan Is there a way to switch which view is on the TV on the fly? That would help in some situations I feel.

Man, I've gone from being totally sold on this game to not wanting it in the space of one video. How does the game work with off-screen play? Does it even work with off-screen play?

I don't have Splatoon, so are these motion controls like Ocarina of Time on the 3DS where you aim with the analogue stick and can then use the motion controls to make fine adjustments? If it is, I'd be all over that.

Haters gonna hate. I can't live without motion controls when aiming (unless using mouse). That's why I switched to PC back then when they introduced the R Stick and shooter games on the PS2. Then switched back to console gaming with the Wii U.

@ULTRA-64 Local Vs probably won't happen because of the controls. Only 1 person on the system could have the two screens and motion aiming. It could be interesting to have system vs system online battles. 1 pilot, 1 gunner vs 1 pilot, 1 gunner.

@IceClimbers I think I heard there was a way, but I didn't use that at E3, so I can't be sure.

In Nintendo's strive to be different, they've lost sight of what's fun.

I'm not concerned about motion control at all. I loved them in Skyward Sword. And Splatoon. And the Zelda remakes. The only games that had frustrating motion controls was Twilight Princess on Wii, mainly because I originally played the Gamecube version first, and the motion controls felt (and, most likely, were) tacked on.

The body goes where the eyes look. That's just natural.

Combining motion controls and joysticks is a great way to offer both accuracy and reactivity to camera control and aiming. Something that could only be done with a mouse or with aim-assist until now.

@AlexOlney Thanks ever so much for bringing up the comparison with watching your surroundings while driving a car. I got ridiculed and/or misunderstood so many times when I used that very same metaphor myself (also here on NLife) that I was beginning to believe that I was the only one that understood it, even doubting the validity of my statement.

But I'll continue to use it now with renewed vigor, so thanks again! And yet another entertaining video as well, so well done and do keep 'em coming. (although something tells me we won't have to worry about not seeing any new video's)

@Yorumi At the end of the day it's either a like it or hate on the controls. You say the controls are bad. others say the controls are good. How it will stack when you truly got the controls in the persons hands for more than a hour and the consensus.

@Yorumi Stating your opinion does not qualify as providing evidence for your opinion. And please stop claiming universality. For anything, because it's never true.

Also, I do get the irony of claiming universality is universally untrue. So I guess I have identified the one exception.

I had the chance to play a demo of the game already. Firstly, the aiming is really not that difficult from Splatoon. It took me quite a while to get used to Splatoon, at first I even turned the motion controls of, but in the end it became second nature. So if you are used to Splatoon, Starfox Zero won't feel so strange. Secondly, certain aspects of the controls certainly feel different or even strange at first, especially if you are used to the control scheme of Starfox 64. But that's simply something to get used to. Thirdly, the controls are extremely complex. That is, at first, the biggest issue. One reason for this complexity are the many different vehicles which all come with unique complex controls. If you're having a mere quick look into the game, you may be frustrated when you got used to one vehicle and then you have to adjust to another one. However, for one thing it's everything but necessary to be aware of all the subtler aspects of the controls already in the beginning. This includes the use of the gamepad screen, you can easily do without it for a while. The other side is: I'm sure that just this complexity will allow for an incredibly amount of depth, truly honoring players who got the skill (comparable to Wonderful 101, speaking of Platinum Games). All the time you hear Nintendo gamers complaining that Nintendo's games had become too casual, too unambitious, lacking innovation..., and now finally Nintendo is about to release a true hardcore experience that isn't afraid of posing a challenge to the player, of demanding skill and devotion while honoring it, and the same people are proclaiming a lack of fun or whatever.
Surely, there could have been an entirely different, equally good or even better way of making a new Starfox. The franchise has nearly unlimited potential (while on the other hand one should also keep in mind that the franchise itself is not that strong or popular) and I myself would have desired something wholly different, more focused on story and a blow-away presentation. But it's no use evaluating what could have been, but to judge that what we get for what it is. And from what I have seen, Starfox Zero is a very distinguishable and highly interesting game which I may enjoy precisely because it's so different from anything I could have imagine myself. Actually, it seems quite a problem of many players nowadays that they won't receive a game they get with an open mind – then play it and like it or not like it, that's also a matter of taste, of course – but that from the start they reject everything which doesn't meet their expectations and their preferences, or even only if it isn't exactly the way they wished it to be.

@Yorumi In all fairness, although I do understand your points, Alex has done quite well making his own arguments and it is true that the experience will be different for everyone, so what you deem to be bad controls because they may take too long to master, will simply pose a healthy (and perhaps even relished) challenge to somebody else.

And for some, being able to partially switch of the gyro will be good, and others will want to master the game completely, and yet another group won't even bother because of their own views on the stuff we've seen from it so far and the demands they have concerning how a game/this game should be playing in their opinion.

Ultimately, the aggregate of all professional reviews will show us how this game will be judged on average by the media, and then it's up to us to either play or skip this title. I for one will definitely try it for myself before condemning this game to the seven pits of hell without ever having lain a finger on it...

Splatoons controls are amazing so the comparison has me excited. I'm interested to see the difference in the aiming cursor to see if it is awkward or not, but the rest sounds good for me. I really wish we could get a Rogue Squadron with similar controls and a duel player gunner/pilot set up

@Gerbwmu I second that. Imagine doing a trench run of the Death Star with the GamePad being your cockpit window...

I'm doubting the control scheme will be an issue at all for me. I'm a motion control kinda guy and definately the minority in that I LOVE Splatoon's gyro aiming system. If it is indeed similar, I'm golden.

This is a slight bummer to hear the controls won't be similar to the N64 version, but oh well. Probably gonna buy it anyway considering we haven't had a Starfox console game in over a decade

@Project_Dolphin

What is wrong with @Yorumi watching the video and arriving at a different conclusion? You say "you took someone else's case and came to a conclusion that they didn't". So what?

If I make a video jumping on a trampoline and intentionally hitting my head on the ceiling and my conclusion is "This is fun!", someone is allowed to watch that video and come to a different conclusion than I have that hitting your head against the ceiling would surely not be fun.

EDIT: And he's right, from the beginning, this game, along with Project Guard and Project Robot, were heavily promoted as games that "made proper use of the gamepad". It was done for the wrong reasons, at a time when Nintendo was realizing this console's gimmick didn't accomplish anything so they attempted to make things that showed it's benefits and awkwardly shoved in the best way they could accomplish that into this game. The same thing has happened with motion control in games on the Wii, so there is very much precedent for @Yorumi 's concerns and opinions.

@DefHalan
Same experience as me at E3. Watching the people ahead of me in line, I could some of them struggling, but not sure how "good" at games those people were, since I also saw a lot of people struggling with Yoshi's Woolly World. It took me just a couple of minute to map my brain to the Star Fox controls, and I ended up having a lot of fun.

@TheRealThanos or handing the pro controller to my friend so i can whirl around in my spinny office chair and pretend to be the gunner in the falcon blasting Tie fighters

@Haz ... Maybe we were in line together... crazy. lol

@Yorumi Requiring getting used to something doesn't necessarily make something bad and definitely doesn't make it a barrier to entry. One of the articles I read mentioned that the reason he had to get used to the controls was because he had to learn a new way to think, i.e. you no longer have to position the vehicle right behind your target, instead you can fly over it and shoot down.

So maybe its not a barrier to entry but for re-entry? Perhaps a new player to genre might not need much time to get used to the controls at all.

Nintendo can never seem to win. They make a game that looks and plays similar to entries before it, and they are always rehashing the same stuff. They create something new with interesting new ways to solve problems and they are ruining a game by forcing new things down our throats. I, for one, like both approaches. Maybe that makes me a fanboy, but I guess I am fine with that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxhs-GLE29Q&list=PL35FE5C4B157509C9&index=34

I couldn't get into Splatoon's motion controls, so unfortunately this video was more alarming than calming.

@invictus4000
Why do you think you are in the minority for loving Splatoon's gyro controls? I don't know of anyone who thinks not using them is better, except maybe one person in this comment section. Funny.

@Yorumi
So, two people in these comments enjoyed the controls immediately and Alex's attempt at giving a balanced opinion by suggesting a relatively short adjustment time are supposed to give way to your arguments that the controls are bad when you've never used them?

The only argument you are holding onto now is the length of time it takes to get accustomed to them, but I really, really don't understand this argument. I brought up Bionic Commando in another thread as an example from my youth where the effort to learn a new control scheme was incredibly rewarding but it happened over and over back in those days when gaming was young.

Are actual Jet fighter controls worse than Starfox N64? Because I imagine you'd take a while to get used to them. Are we to just stop trying new ways to control video games? It has all been explored, so anything that takes adjustment is just bad?

I respect your perspective on many things and I understand your frustrations with Nintendo to a degree, but I just can't see this.

@Yorumi And why exactly shouldn't controls be challenging? Granted, it also depends on the type of game, but there are numerous genres that would actually suffer from not having complex or challenging controls.

Think of being able to steer a flight sim with the greatest of ease, how bad would that be? It needs to come across as you flying a huge plane and that takes some skills that you should learn.

Obviously, Star Fox is no flight sim, but it still relies heavily on flight physics and they added to that with the separate gunner controls. I can still vividly remember the first time I played Star Fox 64 (or any N64 game for that matter). It took me some time to get used to analog controls (first time for me, since I wasn't a PC or console gamer before that) and on top of that having to learn flight controls, simple as they seem now by today's standards.

As a newbie, I had more than enough trouble getting used to stick up = down, even though I could of course change that setting in the options, but I wanted to learn these flight controls, if only to be able to brag about not having to use the simpler "arcade" controls, because I've mastered the game the way it SHOULD be played.

How it will turn out in this instance, almost none of us know yet, but apparently (going by the comments) the few people that have, seem to be quite positive, so as I said before: I'll reserve judgment until I get a chance to try it out for myself.

Starfox 64 3d was my first real go at a starfox. I kept getting frustrated because I kept flying/driving into things while aiming because it was linked to steering. If this new set up helps with that I'm all for it. Plus It'll be good to try this sort of game with a larger controller. I found playing while gripping my 3ds xl to be quite awkward and painful for my big man hands.

For me, the new control scheme and this game's utilisation of the Gamepad is the primary reason I'm interested in this game. Certainly, the trailers showing off how cool the levels and events can be have gotten me interested, but the unique way of using my favourite controller is what got me interested at first and continues to keep my interest.

Learning to use both screens frequently shouldn't be too hard. I did it with Wonderful 101 to draw powers, The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker HD to change items, and Splatoon to check the map. If it comes down to having to quickly raise the Gamepad, well Project Zero got me fairly quick at that, so I have no worries with the game.

I'm pretty excited for the game and sure I can get used to the motion controls with few problems, but I am still a little worried about the cinematic parts. They look really amazing, but hopefully it won't be too difficult to control your Arwing as well as shoot at the enemy.

Countless series have non-standard control choices, and they don't affect the quality of the game one bit. Monster Hunter, Dark Souls, La-Mulana (by today's standards) or even something as old as StarTropics could qualify. Not to mention, any game that relies on input precision, like fighting or rhythm games.

None of those games have what anyone would call "intuitive control schemes", yet they fit the design of the game perfectly. That's what we should be concerned about, the synergy between the controls and the level design. If a period of acclimatization is needed to get used to SFZ, so be it. The game looks as fluid as any other SF game before it, I'm sure it will end up great.

Star Fox is one of my favorite franchises. It saddens me to see some concrete information about how no secondary option will be provided to those who wish to play the game with standard controls. This also excludes the ability for off-TV play, which I'm actually a fan of when I want to take my game around my home.

@Project_Dolphin

"Let other gamers state their opinions" What an ironic thing for you to say.

• "Let other gamers state their opinions"
  "Hey man, don't state your opinion on Alex's video if it's different from his because he made the video and you didn't!"

Really?

You seem to have set up this rigid system of the opinion only being valid if the person themselves did the blog or wrote an article. You don't have to do those things for your opinion to be valid. He watched a video that explained how they worked, and determined they were bad, in his opinion. In your own words, man, "let other gamers state their opinions"

Yes, they are!

lol

@Yorumi While everything you mention about game design is true, you're jumping the gun by claiming that SFZ has an intrusive control scheme. Not to make this a personal attack, but you're reminding me of the people who play Monster Hunter for 30 minutes and then drop it because every input is a compromise you make as a player, and added to the timing of the animations makes people think its combat is badly designed.

Now, I haven't played anything that similar to SFZ. I'm guessing it plays like a mixture of Splatoon and KI:U, and I really don't see how that mixture can turn out to be a "struggle with the controls" in any way. Also, you're judging the game by videos that don't show the complete picture. The gamepad is completely missing in those gameplay segments, and I really don't think it's a control scheme you can judge just by how boring it might appear to be on screen.

That aside, there is no inherently better control scheme. It widely varies from game to game depending on multiple design factors, and there is an endless stream of games that act as a testament to that. Tradition often hinders creativity.

@Gerbwmu Yea, I am excited about the co-op mode too. It's like a Star Wars dream come true

@Yorumi From bottom to top: a lot of people being divisive on the Zelda games consisted of people not liking motion controls in the first place, making it highly questionable if they ever gave it a fair chance. Most that did, found that although not perfect, the controls in Skyward Sword worked pretty well and in Twilight Princess it added to some parts (not all) of the game, so we can't completely agree on that one.

"you're left with an extremely shallow and boring game which is what the videos show."

Well, that's not what I got from that AT ALL. I simply saw a new Star Fox game with some interesting new mechanics, maybe not all of them as good as they should be, but I'm going into this with an open mind and I'm going to experience it first hand.

I honestly don't know what to make of the first part of your comment since I can't possibly imagine making a flight sim as easy as possible, let alone have children play test it. A flight sim is SUPPOSED to be difficult, with a steep learning curve, slowly drawing you in and making you perform the flights more an more perfect every time you play the game.

In closing, and no offense meant, but let's not drag on and just agree to disagree. We both have our own opinions and although I get some of your points, I simply can't agree with most of them.

@Gerbwmu Roger that, Gold Leader...

This fanboyism is the reason why Nintendo can do all this crap over and over again. I don't understand why we always have to be cheery and positive. This is a very mediocre looking Arcade-Shooter that you need 30 minutes to get into to be able to play halfway decently (I played 20 min and just hated it).
I'm hardly on this site anymore because Nintendo is just sad right now and this forced positivity is annoying....Let's hope the NX will not be a Gimmick-packed piece of garbage....

@Yorumi I guess I'll have to take your word for it, but putting kids in flight simulators meant to provide feedback for real world airplanes seems VERY counter-intuitive to me. We wouldn't just want any old nutcase to be able to fly a multi-million (billion?) dollar jet, now would we?

And what use would a trained pilot be then? If it will be made that easy, then surely no or only little training is needed, being largely relegated to lessons in "what does this button do?" since most cockpits contain quite a few of them...

Obviously it won't be that black and white, but perhaps you can understand my honest surprise at this statement.

@Yorumi Sure, but you can't apply that to this game. Not yet.
The videos show the game as it is, that much is undeniable. My point is, they do not show it as you'd experience it. This is a game, not a Michael Bay movie. Without taking player agency into account, what you see on the screen is pointless. The Warriors series looks super flashy from the other side of a computer screen, yet it has one of the most braindead control schemes ever, for example (which isn't necessarily bad, I actually enjoy those games from time to time). Again, most videos showcase only half of the actual gameplay, you're missing the whole gamepad part. Even in those videos that show both screens at the same time, the effect isn't the same: you aren't effectively managing the action in both, just watching what happens in each.

The reassurance exists because controls were spotty before, as reported by this very site, and people had doubts about their performance. It's no secret that it had a rough development process: let's not forget this, like Pikmin 3, was originally planned for the Wii. The rough graphics and questionable initial design choices favored by Miyamoto created negative buzz around it, but it seems they have managed to overcome it by listening to fan feedback and a delay. Honestly, I'm not seeing the conspiracy.

@Monsti Tell me, did you play F-Zero masterfully the first time as well, or did you actually have to learn the game?

@Yorumi And to be fair, you don't know how intrusive the controls will be, especially after you get use to them. When there is a new control method it will take time for people to get use to them. It took me a while to get use to Splatoon controls, which I think will are more difficult that Star Fox controls. From my experience the controls aren't intrusive, but it isn't something that you instantly can easily handle, because it isn't the same as other games. You need to get use to the controls.

@Shadowkiller97

Difficult controls are by definition a barrier to entry. However, it doesn't have to be bad. I remember playing Mechwarrior and loving it when I was younger. The controls were challenging but allowed a depth that couldn't have been there with a simpler scheme. However, many people couldn't get into that game because of controls.

I think the real question is are the motion controls accurate. As the people that are dissapointed by this announcement are probably down on motion controls in general.

Out of all the video game companies in the world I think Nintendo is the one least likely to implement bad controls in their games, at least from my experience. Starfox will be no different and once you get used to them like most people did in Splatoon you will likely find yourself preferring motion controls! Give it a chance people, this isn't the Wii.

@Yorumi Well, beats me, but I still don't see how kids can help make a jet fly better. They probably can't even reach for the controls and the pedals at the same time. (and now I have that image in my mind of children struggling in a seat trying to reach both controls at the same time and failing miserably, great... )

But I'm going to bow out of this Star Fox related topic too. Truly no offense meant, but I'm not getting anywhere, and you're not budging either because you apparently seem to think that you are the only one with all the answers and I come here for my own enjoyment, not to get annoyed by a discussion that is going nowhere and there is WAY too much vinegar being poured here, and not only by you, on a game that most of us have next to no experience with, other than having seen a couple of vids that might be a cause for concern, or not.

It's almost midnight over here, so I'm off. I bid you a good night.

Haha Its great how certain "people" dont know how to state an opinion on here. If you want to share, you say "to me, blah blah etc". In the case of @Yorumi, he should be saying that "to him", the controls suck. But thats all that really is, the opinion of someone who does NOT have the game in his hands yet talks as if his word is fact.

"To me", when I tried it at E3, the controls took a couple rounds to get used to, but soon after I had little to no problems. "For the author of this article", he says the controls have a learning curve, but is still very much enjoyable. "For most the people that are reviewing the game already", the controls are just fine. As of right now, that seems to be the general opinion of PEOPLE THAT HAVE THE GAME IN THEIR HANDS. If you dont like the controls, congrats, no one really wants to hear your opinion in EVERY article regarding this game. @Yorumi and others, you sound like a broken record. We get you dont like the game. Shut it and get over it. For the rest of us, hearing you ONCE is more than enough. Let the rest of us enjoy the anticipation of this game so we can form OUR OWN opinions about the controls. Geez...

Honestly, the control scheme and Platinum's involvement are the two reasons that I'm interested in this. I'm not a fan of Star Fox, but I'd give it a go if I didn't have a large backlog and other releases in the next few months.
It seems like an eShop demo would be a great idea for this game.

@SamuraiSonic Me too. I've never had an opinion on Star Fox, and wouldn't have an opinion about this one either, expect that Hashimoto is directing. He is awesome.

"Thankfully we've had enough time to realise that although the controls are certainly different to what you might be used to, they are by not bad or broken by any stretch of the imagination."

Where is this coming from? Pressure from Nintendo?

Edit: Can't we just assume that whenever someone says that something is good/bad, it's always going to be subjective? Adding "In my opinion" or "I expect it'll be" seems a bit redundant in a forum, which should be full of subjective debate.

We'll need to try the game to be sure of what the controls are like, but there nothing wrong with people using the information currently available to say that they think it'll be good/bad.

Since people replied to my original comment as I was completely rewriting it, I'm adding what I originally wrote below (recited from memory, so might be missing something or not exactly right):
I'm confused here. It appears to be ok for someone to say "the controls are good" without having played the game, but it seems to be very bad to say "the controls are bad" without playing it.

@Socar "it seems to be the only game that makes use of the gamepad"

No.

@Yorumi "Taking nearly an hour to 'get used to' is practically the definition of bad"

What are you talking about? When I first played Splatoon it felt strange because of the new control scheme, I remember thinking it wasn't that good at the beginning, but after a few hours of practice they became better and more natural. Now I can't play a shooter game with no gyro without feeling clunky,

It's now my favorite control scheme for shooters, along with pointer controls. And I know I'm not the only one who thinks this way about Splatoon's controls.

@crimsontadpoles I agree with you, is anyone here saying the controls are good, though? All they're saying is that they're willing to learn to learn the controls. On the other side, it's all chaos.

@Vee_Flames You're right. I noticed that mistake, and was editing my post as you posted yours.

@crimsontadpoles Its not so much that its ONLY ok to be positive. Its HOW u express your opinion. We all understand what we, the people who do not have the game, say is "opinion" or "subjective". Its how we present that view, that some of us have a problem with. As the case with @Yorumi, he says his opinion like its fact, and from nearly all starfox related articles, he not only feels the need to repeatedly say his opinion, but he says it in a way like hes jamming down our throats, CONSTANTLY saying it over and over. We dont need to hear his opinion every time, especially when it sounds like he knows better than the people playing the game.

Most of us positive people understand its our view, and we dont try to say it like we're right. People have said here that they will wait to get the game to form an opinion as well, as they cant decide if its good or bad "to them". And thats the bottom line, opinions are ment to be known what one person PERSONALLY thinks, and not try to force the subject every chance they get. Its ok to be negative, just dont be an butt about it. Same goes for being positive. Dont be a butt and claim its gonna be good as fact without even trying it.

@Socar
That's because Nintendo changed and tweaked the controls after the first reveal.

They made it more like Splatoon, and made it so most the game can be played without looking at the gamepad except when you want to. A few exceptions.

@Lizuka
^^^
As I was saying in my above comment, Nintendo made the game almost completely playable from start to finish without looking at the gamepad, unless you want to. But from what I've seen from GameXplain, you'll want to look at it sometimes cause you can still shoot stuff that goes offscreen, so it comes in handy.

Motion controls are basically like Splatoon, which most people would agree was a pretty good setup. I was skeptical at first, but it seems they've taken care of it.

I mean- it's the standard analog/gyro combo setup we've been using in games like Splatoon, so, how hard can it really be?

@Yorumi They tweaked the controls.

@Freeon-Leon "Taking nearly an hour to 'get used to' is practically the definition of bad"

Yeah, this is the quote I find most ridiculous of all.

"How was your first driving lesson, honey?"

"It took nearly an hour to get used to. Driving is practically the definition of bad."

"I wonder how Tommy's first swimming lesson went"

"Oh, it took him nearly an hour to get used to, so he decided swimming was practically the definition of bad and drowned in protest"

"Oh wow! Kate just took her first step! She's finally a toddler!"

"Yes, but it took her nearly an hour to get used to, so we have decided that walking is practically the definition of bad and won't encourage to her to waste her time on it any longer"

I won't stand for or against SF0's controls until I've played them, but I find this new definition of 'bad' to be amusingly inconvenient.

So it's got a learning curve like stunt race fx.

@Ryu_Niiyama Absolutely. Except, for me, I was a big shooter fan on PC - but couldn't really stand them anymore on consoles (though I played a lot of GoldenEye back in the N64 days). Splatoon's motion controls have been a godsend and no doubt one of the key reasons I love that game so much. I'm keen to see what impact similar motion controls will have on my enjoyment of Star Fox Zero!

@Yorumi "Funny how people are never up in arms against people with positive opinions of nintendo."

You must be new to the Internet.

@Yorumi The difference is, you wont shut up. Every starfox article, you say the same thing over and over AND OVER. We get it, numbnuts, you HATE the controls. Many of us would rather you say something else than spout the same thing. Looking too hard into this? Your TRYING too hard to defend yourself.

And like @TheRealThanos said, if someone was shoving positivity down our throats CONSTANTLY like you, you can bet your 2 cents that we would say something about it.

The controls arent easy, yah. If someone wants to tell us otherwise over and over, without owning the game, in the tone that makes them sound like an annoying brat, they would get the same responce from the rest of us: Shut up and wait for the game.

@Yorumi You're kidding right? Splatoon's controls were not necessarily intuitive when first picking it up - but they are now (even more so than typical shooting games on a console for me). Intuitive controls are somewhat dependent on the individual and their exposure to similar control schemes. Of course this will not necessarily be intuitive at first - but play it long enough and it'll get there.

@Maxz Yes, yes, yes! Perfect examples of the ridiculous "it takes time to adjust to so it isn't inutitive" argument.

@Maxz Takes more than an hour for a baby to BE USED to walking. Sometimes it takes years. Sometimes...
Oh good Lord, what's worse than "bad"? I don't think the word describing the scenario above exists. Do we need to invent a new word?
Oops, misread your comment. I edited my post!

@Yorumi shrugs doesnt annoy me. No more than your negative comments anyways. If they needlessly attacked, then I among others would say something. But...its not like their "trying" hard when you leave yourself easily open to them.

"Funny now blah blah blah...", right?

@Yorumi People are up in arms about people with positive opinions about Nintendo all the time. You can tell when they use terms like "Nintendrone."

@Yorumi You do seem to be focusing on those negative comments instead of discussing with people that offer further input on SFZ control impressions.

Disclaimer: the following comment is an opinion. It should in no way be assumed to be the truth, or that I know what I'm talking about. This comment doesn't contain any insider knowledge, and doesn't contain any facts at all. Other opinions to this can and will exist.

The controls are alright.

I'll say this:

Any control scheme that challenges the status quo won't be for everyone. Some will pick it up naturally, while others will wrestle with it.

Personally, I've found games are rarely as good as you hope, but also rarely as bad as you fear either. The worst case scenario here with SFZ is not the actual controls I don't think- it's modeled after Splatoon which worked wonderfully for most gamers. The potential issue lies with switching your attention to the gamepad and taking damage while you're not focused on TV.

So, my plan is to only glance at the gamepad for a few brief seconds when needed- not endlessly sharpshoot half the level without watching the TV. I think as long as it's used conservatively in context as a tool in your kit, rather than compulsively abusing it,, it will by and large serve as beneficial. Worst case scenario, I take a few bullets here and there. I think I can live with that.

And who knows, maybe this won't really be an issue at all.

Wait, the controls work? But the internet told me Nintendo purposefully designed these controls to confuse and frustrate its fans!

Why are you all jumping on Yorumi? I don't agree with them at all about most of their points but I just keep moving on and do not care. You are not going to change someone's mind that seems set on what they believe.

Move along or don't but when you don't the comment section becomes extremely uninteresting and moves from an open discussion to "how big of a post can I type to prove my point that could be said in two sentences that actually proves nothing anyway".

@Yorumi See? Not that hard xD If anyone wants wants to dispute your last post, lets busts some chops, haha.

@SetupDisk It was already uninteresting hearing his same comments in every article regarding the game. Your late to the party.

@Clownshoes I like how you assume that all of us talking with @Yorumi are a bunch of Nintendrones that do nothing but praise the company. I can tell you right now that all of us have some beef with Nintendo and arent happy with the way some of their decisions are made and done.

But thats not what this is about. Not about "nostolgia glasses" or that its a nintendo site. This was about someones way of talking about his opinion of starfox. If you want to judge he people here as a whole for being nintendrones "over the years", do it in a relevent article or post. @Yorumi's last post was constructive and made sense, and and Im sure alot of us respect that delivery.

Nostalgia glasses....hah

Game still looks pretty disappointing to me tbh.

@CreamyDream Excatly

@Marce2240 Apart from the fact that F-Zero is not Star Fox and that I expect very different gameplay: In F-Zero the controls were never an obstacle. The game is hard!!! Not the controls.

@Syrek24 You're just repeating the same fanboy phrases every fanboy does. There is a difference between positivity and fanboying. I really enjoyed Steamworld Heist. It was fresh, tight and fun. In fact: Gaming hasn't lost its magic. The gaming world is full of it and very diverse right now. But most of that stuff is not coming from Nintendo. In fact: No one is doing as little innovation as them right now. Mario Tennis, Mario Party etc. etc. Again: I don't really wanna discuss it because it's the same fanboy phrases over and over. There is no need to throw money at Nintendo for a mediocre game and telling yourself over and over IT IS GOOD IT IS GOOD IT IS GOOD, when the gaming world is full of gems.

The original/retro arwing in the game is the best looking thing. I wish they had just done a low poly retro looking HD star fox or made everything look like those muppets from the E3 presentation.

Are there still no Pro controller options?

This game looks pretty trashy, graphics-wise. The environments look generic and don't have a ton of detail, and overall the game looks like an early build, not the full complete game. It looks like an upscaled Wii game. And I'm not one to fuss over pixel count if the aesthetic is pleasing, but frankly Star Fox Zero just looks quite bland.

@Clownshoes I didn't grow up with Star Fox 64 and yet I'm hyped for SFZ. Does that qualify me for those nostalgia glasses you were talking about?
Good Lord, comments like yours are annoying.

Can you learn to drive a car in an hour? How about learn to fly an airplane in an hour? How long did it take you to get used to Monster Hunter's controls on 3DS or PSP? I think I've made my point. The controls aren't bad, they need getting used to. I am starting to get excited and feel the magic...

I haven't played this game yet but this gives me pause. I hated the motion controls in Splatoon and didn't enjoy it at all until I figured out how to disable them (now I love the game since I don't have to worry about motion control). It's the same reason I hated the Wii-mote. Clearly some people enjoy the controls and some don't, so if Nintendo were to pursue this course I would suggest they cater to both seemingly large audiences--a way to disable those controls and adapt the game-play situations to match the control style (much like how they adapted the 3DS Star Fox to match the different controls on that system) or for those that enjoy these controls to turn them on. In all fairness, I'm not sure Nintendo has a large enough install base on the Wii-U to make money off of games that split the limited fan-base.

Come to think of it, it takes hours of game play to master most games. I'm thinking about all the hours we've put into games like Street Fighter, Smash Bros, Splatoon, you name it. So an hour or so to get used to the game isn't a big deal.

Btw, I am pretty sure it's not Nintendo, it's Platinum who designed the controls and gameplay - same guys who developed The Wonderful 101 which had mixed reviews when it first came out, but pretty much everyone these days says that game is fantastic. I say give it a chance.

Motion controls suck & Miyamoto needs to retire. Come at me people!!

I don't think the complaints were ever really that the motion controls were bad or broken, but that Nintendo was refusing to allow people a choice in the matter.

It's like with Kid Icarus Uprising, why not just allow people the control scheme of their choosing? Yes, I'm aware Sakurai gave an explanation of it being unfair for multiplayer if people had different control options, but frankly, that explanation doesn't hold up when many multiplayer games allow for multiple control options with different controllers and nobody ever complains about it, heck, Smash Bros. is one of those games.

Or like Windows 8 where Microsoft was trying to force a "casual friendly" smartphone like interface onto all PC users. They could have easily just given people a choice on which interface they preferred, but instead choose to force one on people instead.

That's what people are upset about, not being allowed a choice when there isn't a reason to withhold it.

@Maxz @Monsti @Hey-Cha-La

First off, mastering a game's mechanics and becoming comfortable with a games controls are two distinct and different things.

F zero gx gave custom controls, so really no control issues.

The quality of controls is relative. Getting comfortable driving a car after an hour is normal. Taking an hour to get used to right turns vs left turns is not. The steering wheel is intuitive. Steering while driving backwards is bad, that's why many people don't do it well.

Classic star fox controls takes about 5 minutes to get accustomed to without instruction. Compared to that, 1 hour is bad.

That's a matter of intuitivity. Functionality is another thing entirely. While it may take longer to learn, it may be more effective rhan the classic method.

Both should really be included

@Syrek24 You're my hero! 🙂

I really feel like some journalists are white knighting this game just to curb the overwhelming poor reaction to its reveal...and current poor reception.

You really don't have to. It's okay to agree with us angry loud mouth naysayers.

I know it may totally just make Nintendo hate you, and you would run the risk of losing some media trades and such, but if you really want to write a refreshing article, then stop being so apologetic.

I expect the same thing to happen with Federation Force.

Anyway. I think the motion controls and the second screen totally detract from the experience. And no amount of people telling me it doesn't will change my mind.

I've watched numerous vids from different players, and every plays with the same stiff looking movements hardly moving the Arwing around at all. Thing with making the lasers independent from the Arwing's movement, is that you have to sacrifice the importance of movement, or the use of it. This isn't a simple case of "it works in Splatoon." Splatoon isn't a rail shooter.

And then there's the second screen. I'm sorry, but I really don't want to hold the gamepad up in front of my face, or look down in my lap when I'm playing a game. And say what you will about the game's supposed "art style" being a development choice, but I more see it as a compromise for having to render the game twice.

@Ichiban

You and I are going places.

Don't care what the naysayers think, I enjoyed SF643D (the only SF I've played) and I'm looking forward to SFZ. The game looks good and I'm eager to try out the controls. I didn't have an issue with glancing at the second screen in MH3U, so I don't think I'll have a problem here.

I will buy this and I hope I can get used to these controls. All we wanted was a new star fox not another stupide motion control gimmick.

@LUIGITORNADO It is also okay to disagree with angry naysayers, especially those who bring up Federation Force, the latest game from Next Level, a studio which has earned the benefit of the doubt, unlike every alleged Metroid fan who shat on that project because they felt entitled and believed they understood the franchise better than the people who had been working on it for decades.

Anybody else realize someone made up about twenty accounts because they had too much time on their hands and think they know more about gaming than Miyamoto and Hashimoto?

I'm pretty excited for the controls. The only major games I've played that seriously used the Gamepad were Arkham City, Nintendo Land, and Game & Wario; so I'm looking forward to how Zero really pulls you into the action!

I won't be getting this game, hope all of you that do really enjoy it.

While I can't say anything about the controls themselves (have to try them first), I would prefer not to sacrify local PvE PvP for the sake of "being different".

In other terms I do not think this dual screen setup adds too much to gameplay, while local coop/versus would have been way better.

I do not say anything about online multi... But it is sad that in 2016 this features is missing in SF game

Kid Icarus: Uprising controls perfectly. I enjoyed Splatoon with it's controls. I even liked Metroid Blast's controls in Nintendo Land. Naturally I also liked Star Fox 64. I can't see any reason why I wouldn't enjoy Star Fox Zero as well!

I'm looking forward to "getting used to" the control scheme. I do wish the option was there to enjoy a classic setup but we'll just have to trust Nintendo with that omission.

@Monsti Then I'll point out to Canvas Curse. I bet you struggled for the controls for more than 20 minutes, all the more so considering it was a launch title.

You have to learn the controls of every new game that comes out, unless those controls are extremely derivative. This doesn't seem to be any different.

I learnt a long time ago to not trust people's complaints about controls in games. Especially Nintendo games. The only way to understand the controls is to just play the game yourself. Which, I can't wait to do.

If you introduce a new control scheme like this, the question gotta be, IS it better?
Better can mean alot though .... more responsive, more accessible, more precise, more inclusive, or whatever. Of course, if this means loosing any other attribute that are crucial to controls, it's no good either. You might introduce motion controls to make the game more accessible, but if precision goes to hell with it, it's just no good.
I don't really see the it here. It might work just fine, but at no point did I get the sense, that this was an improved controls scheme. Maybe not a downgraded one, maybe a serviceable one, but not much else. All of that - to me - reads that it's pretty much pointless.

@Socar Mario Maker wouldn't be possible without the gamepad, unless you only wanted to play levels. Arguably, the best players on Splatoon are all using motion control as well.

I won't go as far to say that the gamepad was really necessary for a lot of the wiiu titles, but it was a nice compliment to many games on a system that was many great titles. I will go as far to say that despite it's underwhelming sales, the Wii U is probably my favorite Nintendo system since the SNES.

@Marce2240 Sorry, I just can't agree on this. Canvas course felt natural and getting Kirby to do what you wanted him to do took practice. But not because of the controls but because you had to learn how to work exactly with the physics. It was fun. Playing Starfox just felt frustrating and not natural. It felt very forced. I really wish it wasn't so, I've been waiting a long time for this game. If the do a demo I'll give it a try (it's been 6 months since I played it and I know they tweaked it) but I didn't feel enjoyable.

The weird thing is: The latest trailer actually mad eit look like they got rid of this "two screens at once" shenanigans. So its still there at full force. And honestly, having to juggle screens for such an integral part of the gameplay is a dealbreaker for me.

It would have been perfectly fine if the whole thing controlled via gyro controlls. It showed often enough how precise that can be.
But having a crosshair on screen that serves no purpose whatsoever, while targeting is done through the gamepad is just a weird concept.

The only way that would make sense is in a desyynced multiplayer scenario, with several people taking different roles on one ship (affordable space adventure comes to mind)

Also, having a controlls scheme that requires up to an hour to get used to is generally a bad sign.
Lets compare it to some of the most difficult titles out there: Ninja Gaiden, Monster Hunter and the Souls series.

All of them feature very easy and comprehansible controll schemes, that can be broken down to some key parts:
Light and heavy attacks + dodging of some sort.
All of them are hard because of secondary gameplay aspects, not because their basic controll scheme is hard.

In Monster Hunter, the difficulty comes from you attack animations. Its easy to perform them, the trick is to learn how long they take to perform, when you can cancel them into dodges and so on.

The Souls series is quite similar, is all down to timing plus knowing what your equipment does and how your setup works in conjuction. Does your armor make you slow but can tank the hit, or are you nimble enough to avoid it ?

Ninja Gaiden on the other hand isnt so much about timing, as it is about twitch reflexes. In essence, it features basically the same battle system than, say, Devil May Cry or Bayonetta.
Its difficulty stems from most enemies being as strong as the player itself. They have the same versitile movesets, i-frames etc. Its basically nothing short of a fighting game so to speak.

If your biggest hurdle however lies in the controll scheme itself, expect a lot of criticism from your audience.
Look at Kid Icarus Uprising. It features and easy, yet unorthodox controll scheme with its "flick to turn" mechanics.

This simple mechanic turned a lot of people off so i guess we can brace ourself for even more people complaining about STar Fox here.

Another slightly unrelated thing that came to mind:
This doesnt really bode well as they stated they are holding it back untill "they find a new way of controlling it"...
If its something similatr they have in mind, this can go south pretty quickly.

New isnt always better.

It does not matter how you sell it......it's a control method that gets no love from me!

@Lord - please consider the rules about profanity on this site.

When I tried the demo, I found the set up with two screens and the controls quite awkward.
I don't find the general presentation of the game interesting enough to buy it personally, I did enjoy the SNES and N64 games at the time though.

Kirby and the Rainbow Paintbrush .

You could not look at two screens at the same time. The seconds it takes for our eyes to refocus from one screen to another is two long in the gaming world, so 'Kirby and the Rainbow Paintbrush' was a game best played on the gamepad.

Alex told us about the not so good points of playing Starfox with the gamepad and then said that it should be OK.

I guess the reviews will sort this out.

@Monsti "getting Kirby to do what you wanted him to do took practice"
More or less than 20 minutes? And I'd argue that tapping Kirby to attack was one hell of a weird design choice. Nevertheless, that's a perfect description of a gimmicky game, which makes your original post slightly ironic when seen along with your profile pic.

"Playing Starfox just felt frustrating and not natural"
Are you talking about Zero here?

Broken is objective. Bad is subjective. I came into this gen convincing myself up and down with every Wii U offering that the GamePad is simply the next evolution in controller design. A Wiimote 2.0 if you will. Nowadays I reach for the Pro controller every chance I get. Dual screen gaming, outside of ZombiU, just never grabbed my attention like the Wiimote did. I often found it distracting and unnecessary. Simply put, dual screen gaming on Wii U breaks the immersion for the player, and the abysmal sales would indicate as much.

@SanderEvers this times 1000. It's fairly easy to spot the ones who leave it on too. Can't replace the precision of that right analog stick.

@Phil_Kavadias man you're like, my new favorite here.

What did happen to you, Nintendo?

@Project_Dolphin

Both of our sides of this are childish. However, mine atleast makes sense.

You are stuck on this extremely odd idea you have that commenting on Alex's video meant he "stated Alex's opinion". Word for word you say he "stated someone else's opinion". No, he didn't. He stated his own. This is stating someone else's opinion: "Project_Dolphin thinks this". That is not what he did.

Stating his opinion on Alex's video does not = stating Alex's opinion. This is so odd.

Splatoon's motion controls are awful. I hope they're nothing like that.

@Xenoguner Yet, you have n issue with the hundreds of people who say "the controls are good" in every one of those articles, though. So, your argument essentially is you don't like to continually hear the opinion if it differs from yours.

Sorry, but he has just as much right to post on the article that he doesn't like the controls as the many people that post on every article that they do like the controls.

@crimsontadpoles

Edit: Can't we just assume that whenever someone says that something is good/bad, it's always going to be subjective? Adding "In my opinion" or "I expect it'll be" seems a bit redundant in a forum, which should be full of subjective debate.

THANK YOU! I was just scrolling down to type this exact thing and caught this comment. It drives me NUTS when people say "you are acting like the whole world thinks this because you didn't say imo". So silly to think you have to qualify every single thing you say by stating it's your opinion. OBVIOUSLY it's your opinion if you're saying it.

This is one of the things on the internet that drives me nuts. ASSUME it's someone's opinion, as 99.9 percent of what they say IS their opinion. Having to qualify should come if you're saying "THE WHOLE WORLD THINKS THIS". THAT should be the qualification.

It's like these people want these redundant statements:

"My feeling on it is that it's not good. They shouldn't have done this, in my opinion. My view is that it just wasn't necessary. They should've went another route with it, in my view"

Yuck!

@LetsGoRetro Did you, just reply to me about a topic I dont care about anymore? Alright, I already moved on from this dated conversation, but since you mentioned me...

I dont care anymore, haha. Heck people under me already forgot I said anything. Get over yourself. I said my view, he said his, and even gave an AWESOME reason why the controls bothered him, and all is well. End of my story.

People sure do like to cling...shrugs

@Yorumi Just because it takes a while to acclimate to the controls doesn't mean they're bad. That is by no means the definition of bad controls. Most fighting games and many other shooters and flight games also take a while to acclimate to the control scheme, yet they can be amazingly fun once you do master them. A half an hour is not a big deal. If this turns out to be really fun once I do get the control scheme down, then I couldn't care less about this supposed "barrier of entry."

I will admit the off-center cursor on the TV screen is a little troubling, though.

Man, this place just ain't fun anymore.

I love this game and hope that we can get a multiplayer feature patched on at a later date or a sequel on the NX!

It's the best control setup I ever experienced in a flight shooting game. Too bad it's a bit short.

"No, Star Fox Zero's Controls Are not Bad or Broken"
NintendoLife, 2016