Just recently we shared the most recent work of Unseen64, which produced a devastating expose of the doomed Project H.A.M.M.E.R., highlighting the problems between North American studio Nintendo Software Technology (NST) and Japanese management. It was an episode that, ultimately, didn't reflect well on anyone concerned.
In researching that video with internal sources, however, Unseen64 also learned more about other projects from the period involving NST, bringing intriguing information on some Metroid games.
First of all there's Metroid Prime: Hunters, and the revelation that in its early days it was planned as a sizeable single player Prime experience for the DS. As development progressed and the challenge of creating a single player adventure became clear, however, the barebones local multiplayer mode seen in the DS hardware E3 reveal became the focus, expanding into online multiplayer. In fact, the single player segment suffered due to this focus, with the final result apparently being thrown together from elements of the multiplayer modes.
Some insight is also given on the mysterious Metroid Dread. It was apparently in the concept stages for a good spell, though kicked into prototype development around 2008. A 2D sequel to Metroid Fusion, NST wasn't involved but did see it - along with Nintendo of America staff - in a behind-the-scenes internal demonstration at E3 2009. At this stage the Dread name had been dropped, suggesting it was never prominent in the project, and due to the similar artstyle to the GBA predecessor "literally looked like a port of Fusion on DS", according to one insider.
Finally, Unseen64 tackles Metroid Prime: Federation Force. NST, despite developing Hunters - the only other first-person portable Metroid game - has had absolutely no involvement in the Next Level Games project, again highlighting the fallout and drop down the reckoning following Project H.A.M.M.E.R.; in fact the studio only found out about it during E3 along with the public, upsetting some Hunters development veterans.
As always the video is well worth a watch, so check it out below.
Huh, interesting how Hunters single player was apparently hastily glued together from scraps of the multiplayer... Because I actually enjoyed it much more than the multiplayer.
So it seems like Nintendo really is stuck on how to advance the 2d Metroid games, explains why we haven't seen one in a very long time.
This further shows that there is really no where else to take Metroid in 2D, and that people should stop bloody begging for it. I've been saying this for ages, years. There is no more room for growth in 2D Metroid, and the 2D games since Super have all tried to clone Super Metroid in some capacity, getting worse every time, including Fusion, Zero Mission, and Other M--which, let's face it, was a 2D Metroid game in pretty much every conceivable way. Even the few 3D First-Person segments were painfully two-dimensional, lacking depth, control, or movement.
On top of this, Nintendo also has no idea how to grow the story in any meaningful way, and has actually done immense damage to the franchise in that regard. Samus Aran is not a hero anymore. She's a pathetic, useless, crying, awkward little girl constantly dependent on men to save her from even the most banal and predictable situation.
So an expansive single player Prime game wouldn't have really worked on the DS? I wonder if that's why FF looks so barebones on exploration as well. If so, they should stop trying to make Prime games on handheld, Prime fits more on console anyway.
No involvement? No wonder FedFo looks so awful.
@Quorthon That's a bit over dramatic don't you think? Samus's last appearance as a character in Other M did injure her representation as a character and as a main female protagonist, but it still doesn't change all the other feats and accomplishments she had done previous to that situation. She is still a powerful and accomplished character and is still recognized as a great female character. So I would hardly say she is no longer a hero.
Edit: I would also like to say that since Metroid Fusion is the last in Metroid timeline at that moment. Wouldn't that make it so, Samus's current characterization, is her as she is shown in Metroid Fusion, not Other M
@Quorthon There's honestly only 1 more game's worth of growth for the Prime games as well. Metroid has no more room to grow period after that.
@IceClimbers Do you think one more Prime game and then done or is it time for a serious reboot of the franchise? I wouldn't mind a reboot myself.
@AVahne Not a fan of Next Level Games then?
@Mr_Zurkon Reboot most likely. Not sure how Metroid fans would react to that though.
Ugh, this is PAINFUL!!! My son LOVES Samus!
@IceClimbers Ha, they would cry of course until it was released and the reviews are posted.
@IceClimbers I'd be fine with any reboot that keeps the exploration. They can't toss out the exploration, that's what defines the experience.
@Quorthon All they have to do is simply retcon the hell out of Other M and pick up from either Fusion or Prime 3 since there are loose ends
I recently went back to Hunters (and I started Prime 1 on Wii U, really want a new Metroid) and it looks pretty good for a DS game. Kind of wish NST was involved in at least some way with FF.
What makes metroid games fun? The exploration and shooting. Make more of that Nintendo. (No not federation force)
I really enjoyed Hunters in single player. Maybe, since I'm not very good at games, it lasted longer for me than most but surely it took even competent gamers a long time to get the full ending. It never even crossed my mind that it was cobbled together. I had one game local play and never logged online with it. So for me, it was single player pretty much all the way.
Well this was enlightening. Shame Dread never really took off. And I didn't mind Hunter's single player, although it was obviously lesser then the main Prime games.
I liked Fusion and Zero Mission. So I'll keep asking if I feel like, thank you very much. And so will everyone else. Especially since I don't see how 2D Metroid has hit a dead end. Under-used, but not out of ideas.
So many secrets Nintendo been hiding! I love it!
@OneBagTravel This. One of the biggest reasons why the fanbase has been so upset with Nintendo's recent efforts is because the exploration is so watered down. Exploration is one of the core elements of the series, if Nintendo doesn't understand that they're better off leaving the series dead.
@Bolt_Strike I don't think it's that they don't understand it, rather that they're trying to open the franchise up to more options and to a greater audience.
@Quorthon It not hard to just ignore Other M completely, all they have to do is say it not canon, not like story ever been the main focus of Metroid. PLus Zero Mission and Fusion were both amazing games that are up there with Super Metroid, so I don't know where you got that from.
@Bolt_Strike As Aromaiden already said, I pretty sure they are trying to give the younger audience a chance just like Fusion, but I also think Nintendo is just having a hard time trying to think of some new stuff with Metroid. Sure exploration and shooting is fine at all, but that can only be only fun after a few games. If they keep doing the same thing over and over, exploration and shooting people would just think it would be a Super Metroid rehash or Prime rehash, and I pretty sure Nintendo understood that after hearing the response to Metroid Dread being "Metroid Fusion but on DS". That doesn't make Federation Force any better though.
Baloney! There's plenty of room for growth in Metroid, in terms of gameplay and story! Super Metroid isn't some grand masterpiece that people make it out to be. Like Chrono Trigger, Super Metroid was fantastic at the time, but would be best described as uninteresting and disjointed by today's standards. Not that Fusion or Other M are good approaches at storytelling - Zero Mission drove you forward into the story while still letting you explore at your pace and break some sequence. And as far as gameplay, Other M and Metroid Prime did have an excellent approach to upgrades by making environmental clues or whole access puzzles to solve, something many of the 2D games lacked in large quantities. Super Metroid, for example, if you wanted 100%, you more or less needed to Super Bomb the walkable parts of the map. And as far as story, an SMG or Star Fox Zero could be pulled (which would take care of the Ridley size in Smash issue), or even then, there could be another planet onto which Space Pirates smuggled Metroids or a bounty hunting/Sylux plot throwing just a few moral dilemmas at the player as an aside, the Chozo, just numerous plots yet.
Plenty of ways to make a new Metroid game, but Nintendo has yet to really pull itself away from needlessly and haphazardly "reinventing the gameplay wheel." E3 showed us a picture of a Nintendo trying to make simple gameplay to draw in the mobile crowd, but not understanding that the mass crowd that had the Wii do not want Nintendo's outspecced hardware and they want to use their current hardware and certainly won't take on additional hardware and cost for more of the same inane games that they're already playing for exponentially less cost.
Once Nintendo gets out of this weird period, concedes handhelds in favor of mobile development (I'd buy a Bluetooth controller for my phone from them) and makes engaging, top-of-the-line specced games like my generation enjoyed on the console hardware again, they'll be back in business.
If Nintendo has given NST another chance after the Project Hammer debacle died down and had let them be the ones to work on Federation Forces, then I might actually have a bit of hope for that game. Hunters wasn't that bad for a 1st 3D handheld iteration of Metroid. They could have hit it out of the park this time had they been the ones making Federation Forces, having actual experience making handheld 3D Metroid before. But, nope, Federation Forces will be a turd, and I hope Nintendo never hears the end of it.
Fusion was perfect until you had this terrible lie about Samus being in the federation military. Samus is like bobo fett, or jango fett. She was raised by the Statue people.
Samus and the A.I. Story ruined the entire game for me. In fact the main villain of the game should have eventually been the A.I.
In fact I wished the story had been an rouge A.I. that was working with her clone. Again it would have made perfect sense to have an rouge A.I. + paracite clone working together.
Even mother brain could have been brought back to life, in this. The A.I. was corrupted by Space Pirates.
Otherwise Fusion is an nice graphical game for Ridley and Metroid Gama fans.
Zero mission is flawed in it's story line. I love the idea of an prequel but creating an Metal-Ridley boss that is more Metal then Ridley including Samus being blown out of her suit just destroys the game all together.
Other-M turned Metroid into an lame girl-power, baby and egg nonsense. It was probably a nice play ( especially with Ridley original in full 3d ) but the Other-M story has no logic at all. Just fusion in general.
Also Metroid Prime has the Fusion suit.
I mean why not just make this game after Super? It would have made more sense but otherwise the Prime series to me are more like Gaiden games. I don't know about Metroid Prime 3. I am getting tired of the dark Samus bit.
Waitwaitwait, why are people hating on zero mission and fusion? I love those games! And why exactly do people think 2d metroid has nowhere to go? Nintendo rehashed Mario, yoshi, and donkey Kong in 2d, and every one of those games are usually met with pretty good to amazing reviews. Why can't metroid get the 2.5d treatment?
For every game that actually gets released there are several that never got past the concept stage or were dropped early in development. People need to stop getting upset about every story revealing a potential sequel in a popular franchise that died somewhere along the line. If it died, there is usually a good reason why (i.e. it was not very good).
Also, NST was never one of Nintendo's best developers. I personally feel that Federation Force is safer in the hands of Next level Games than NST. If there are staff members at NST who are upset that they were not brought in on the project then I have to ask ... why would they expect to be called in? It is not a sequel to Hunters.
@RatKing64 I agree with you. I personally have faith in Next Level Games ability, and will refrain from judging FF to harshly until it is released.
@ekreig Funny enough, many Metroid fans have come to refuse to accept FF as a Metroid game entirely.
MP Hunters was such a great and impressive game in many ways.
The character we saw in Other M cried at the idea of Ripley magically being alive/cloned for the 50th time. She was totally incapable of making decisions for herself. And she was totally incapable of taking care of herself, constantly needing to be saved by NPCs. Not only was this monstrously sexist, but it's pretty clear that this is not the behavior of a brave bounty hunter or galaxy-faring solemn warrior.
The Samus Aran in every game prior to Other M (maybe not Fusion) was a stoic warrior who relied on her own strengths, her own skills, her own intellect, and herself to accomplish tasks she willingly accepted. She not only required no saving from anyone, but she genocided entire planets and brought species to extinction by herself.
The only possibilities we have are:
The Samus in Other M is not the real Samus Aran, but a sad, broken clone created by the federation to be an obedient little tool, like a religiously indoctrinated slave housewife.
Or, Other M does not take place in the same Metroid universe and is trying to claim that the most emotionally crippled person in the galaxy is somehow thought of as heroic, even when she's recast as a damsel in distress in her own game, a game in which, it should be noted, she does not affect the plot at all.
If Nintendo is blatantly stupid enough to stick with the portrayal in Other M, then Samus is ruined, and Nintendo is sexist. However, they could save face, and simply erase Other M from the continuity, and remind us that the Samus of literally every other game is the real one. The hero. Not the weakling.
@Quorthon Other M's Samus is not the final characterization of Samus in her Timeline. Metroid Fusion takes place after Metroid Other M (according to all Metroid timeline I have seen) and is currently the last in the Metroid Timeline. So if anything at this moment, Metroid Fusion's Samus, is the real Samus.
I won't defend Other M's characterization of Samus, since it was very poor.
I've been dying for another metroid game I'm even going through the prime games again. I think everyone who talks so much crap about other M really needs to go through it a again. It really isn't as bad or damaging as its made to seem. Samus is still a strong character, she isn't controlled by Adam at all. She says from the very start that she knows they need her to be there but that requires her to play by the rules. Being a past member of the federation she knows they can't handle it with out her and that they have rules they need to follow. she basically just wants to save her old friends and Adam who she looked up to as a father.
I want the next step in metroid to be 3rd person like uncharted / tomb raider I think it will fit metroid nicely .
Very strongly disagree.
The 2-D games wasted ample time trying to remake Super Metroid to some degree over and over--Fusion, Zero, and Other M all use literally the exact same weapons and items and most of the same enemies, while gradually becoming more and more linear (Metroid games were never linear before Fusion).
The Prime games, however, changed dramatically while continuing to evolve naturally. There is ample room for growth in this regard as not a single one of them was wasted trying to clone any other. Including Hunters. There is ample room for growth.
And here's a shocker, I am still playing through the best Metroid game since Prime 3. Believe it or not, it's Bloodborne. The only thing different is the way the leveling works. But Bloodborne is a true Metroid game in every sense of the franchise (mine even has a female protagonist, ha ha). You are dropped into a world, and the only thing you have are you wits and your drive to explore. It's isolating, moody, atmospheric, and driven entirely by careful and often brave exploration. Each step forward opens the world to you, and at the same time, leads back around in a circle--it is absolutely rife with shortcuts, secrets, hidden passages, and the like. The gothic Victorian setting aside (as opposed to alien landscapes of deep science fiction), Bloodborne is a best Metroid game Nintendo refuses to make.
This game alone is evidence of how much further the franchise has to evolve in 3D. Even the story in Bloodborne is told through crafty exploration and exposition, same with the Prime trilogy.
I cannot suggest this enough, if you are craving a great Metroid-like experience, you'll find it in Bloodborne. Right down to the point where revisiting earlier areas suddenly reveals surprising new discoveries and areas.
To be fair, I'm a huge Metroid fan, and Fusion was where my problems with the direction started. There, it was less obvious how bad the storytelling was, but what really hurt it was the forced linear gameplay, which just got worse with everything Sakamoto touched after it.
He is very much the George Lucas of Nintendo.
Other M's approach to upgrades was completely idiotic. They just "locked them away" for the dumbest plot point ever devised, and instead of players earning the upgrades, they just walked into a new area and Samus' Sugar Daddy gave her "permission" to use them. It was insultingly moronic. It completely removed any sense of accomplishment from the game.
It's literally the difference between earning a gold medal, and walking into a room and having someone just hand you one. THAT IS LITERALLY HOW OTHER M DID UPGRADES. The only way one could find fun in that would be if Other M was the first game they'd ever played, so every concept was super brand new to them.
And no, Nintendo has gone to great lengths to show that they have no idea how to further advance the franchise in 2D, because if they did, then the post-Super games would be more than just endless call-backs and half-remakes of Super Metroid, which is exactly what they are. It's sad to hear that Metroid Dread was essentially little more than "Fusion on DS." Freakin' pathetic.
@Aromaiden Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. They can make Metroid appeal to a wider audience without nerfing the exploration. FF would be an acceptable spinoff if the missions were longer and more open and they rewarded you for exploration instead of being shoved into a multiplayer map that can barely hold any secrets.
@Chaoz If they're having trouble thinking of new stuff for Metroid, they're not thinking hard enough because there is more than enough out there to warrant another game. There's plenty that they could do with it. A Fusion sequel could open up the series to all kinds of new Metroid related abilities, Prime 3 pioneered all sorts of new classes for abilities (now we have grapple abilities and ship abilities), and the Gamepad allows for even more new game mechanics that couldn't have been done before. If they've run out of ideas at this point then they have to be creatively bankrupt across the board, there's more potential for new ideas in this series than just about any other IP they own.
@Bolt_Strike Fair point.
@Quorthon Ok, but that's the thing, what can Metroid Prime bring to the table? I feel that they'd have to make a game or two just to play catch up with the rest of the genre. This would not be new stuff, or pushing said genre, just rehashing ideas done by other games in the genre.
After they're done playing catch up, I feel they would not be able to bring new ideas in a significant manner that requires another game, especially if they cover these new ideas in the games used to play catch up.
I'd love to be wrong though.
Edit: As for Other M, all they have to do is make it non-canon. Easy as that, right Disney?
Zero Mission and Fusion are not on the same level as Super because they are largely copies of Super, but with more forced linear gameplay (especially in Fusion), which is the opposite of what defined the franchise in every other Metroid game up to that point. Linearity, unfortunately, seems to be turning into the norm for the franchise, unfortunately.
Saying Zero Mission and Fusion are "on the same level" as Super is like saying a lazy modern Hollywood remake of a classic film is "on the same level," even though it's a lame remake that completely misses much of what made the original so strong. Like Total Recall, or Robocop.
To be fair, I don't think the Metroid franchise should even make any more "Prime" games, only that the franchise should continue in Prime's (and Super's) footsteps--pushing the technological barrier to create an ever more advanced, ever more immersive experience. I don't care if the next game is first- or third-person, so long as it's a technological move forward, and maintains what defines the franchise--solitude, exploration, atmosphere, mood, isolation, a light horror element, player-driven narrative, a strong and independent protagonist, etc.
My point about "room for growth" is more that Nintendo clearly has no idea how to advance in 2D, as they have been plugging Super Metroid into every 2D game since then. Nintendo might also lack the necessary creativity to evolve the franchise in 3D as well, but overall, there is ample room for growth. I tend to look at the 2D side and shrug because, well, even if Nintendo comes up with something new for Metroid, someone else will likely have come up with it already elsewhere, as this is a very popular subgenre of the platformer.
They would also have to retcon Fusion. Which, by the way, I am perfectly happy with. I know Fusion has it's fans, but I seriously doubt those people were playing Metroid before then, and don't properly understand how neutered the game is, or how unoriginal it is across the board.
@Quorthon Fair enough. I think a Metroid Prime (or any 1st person Metroid for that matter) would be amazing with VR support. Will never happen sadly.
I think the word gets over-used way too much these days, but VR Metroid Prime would indeed be quite epic.
Point well made and I empathize - let me clarify what I meant on Other M and upgrades:
Regarding Missiles and Energy Tanks, the idea of actually observing the environment and/or figuring out a way to it, instead of shooting random squares of ground, is a very welcomed evolution of the gameplay. And the idea of this working in 2D and then switching to 3D for the brainy part of it, was brilliant.
And, fans had long had a qualm about Samus not having her upgrades from the prior game. Not to mention it being utterly unbelievable that Chozo Statues would be on a manmade space station. Understandable. This isn't something like Mega Man where you can say "Mega Man's not carrying the old weapons because none of them are the current robot Masters' weaknesses and won't really help," these suckers are hard-wired to Samus' Power Suit.
Unfortunately, these strokes of genius got buried under an abysmal and melodramatic plot. I'm sure we'll see environmental clues to powerups, as that has been an M.O. for Nintendo in games like Mario or Metroid Prime. But for the one time it could be used, the idea of Samus having to restrain herself as military and soldiers must in order to preserve life was an interesting twist that solved the "lost upgrades" issues. That makes sense from a management standpoint - not everyone thinks like that. Rather than "questionable Federation," which was already done well enough in Fusion, the focus should have been on following up on Fusion's moral dilemma regarding preserving life/playing God/fighting the natural order by throwing Samus' power into the mix, focusing more on -why- she can't use her weaponry and her ability to adapt accordingly. Not the Adam relationship and the Federation making bioweapons and all the limitations for no good, clear reason, when you get to kill all the alien species you want willy-nilly (same as any other Metroid game).
And yes, if it's anything like the suspense of walking up on the first captive Metroid in Metroid Prime, VR Metroid with its isolation, atmosphere, and fluctuating moods ranging from calm to utterly intense would be a once-in-a-lifetime experience.
@Quorthon What the hell is Zero Mission missing that the original Metroid captured? Please tell me, and Fusion was linear because it was trying to get more people to play Metroid in the first place since it not casual friendly. Many people wouldn't even have touched Metroid if it wasn't for Fusion, even so Fusion is still a great game in many Metroid fans eyes so you probably have your nostalgia goggles on when talking about Super Metroid.
You know? They could just port Metroid 2 as a remake only do it like Zero Mission if they are struggling for the story. I can understand the delay of the new metroid game because they take really good care of their IPs something which you don't see anyone else do the same.
Have you played any of the Prime trilogy? Because the exploration bit that you enjoyed in Other M was done infinitely better in those games. Prime had you scanning an environment, examining it, studying it. It required as much cunning and knowledge of the right tools for the job as it did a sharp eye and understanding of the environment.
I was disappointed by Other M's lazy method of "kill all enemies, map magically shows you where missile and energy upgrades are." It didn't feel as though I accomplished anything. Almost all of those were found in more of a "oh, right. Sigh" manner. In the Prime games, almost literally every single upgrade and add-on delivered a sense of pride and accomplishment. As a gamer, you simply felt smarter, more clever for solving the riddles and puzzles and analyzing the environment properly. Finding things in Other M felt hollow to me. Pointless. Without reward or challenge. And geez, one missile every time.
Finding things in the Prime trilogy put a s**t-eating grin on my face, a shake to my head, and a welling of chest-beating pride. Sure, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but making discoveries, even just one more missile pack (of 5 missiles, not one) was just so damn rewarding.
Yes, this is a personal anecdote, but I doubt I'm the only one with this view of the exploration of these games.
And yes, your point of "just shoot walls, hope to find stuff" from the 2D games is not particularly engrossing as a point of exploration. Super introduced the X-Ray visor, which created an actual sense of exploration. But no 2-D game expanded upon this.
@Chaoz Original Metroid is just about unplayable now and Zero Mission fixed a lot thankfully. I think Super Metroid still holds up today and I still enjoy Fusion quite a bit.
I think it's monstrously stupid to dumb-down any game (movie, TV show, etc) just to get more people interested. Bloodborne certainly doesn't hold anyone's hand, and it's celebrated for it. This is why it's such a blatant error on the part of Fusion. As a Metroid fan, I wasn't looking for a coddling. I wanted a real Metroid experience--freedom, player-driven exploration and exposition. At the time, I was in the camp of "Metroid in 3D? No way! 2D forever!" But then, Prime ended up being the superior Metroid experience, and Fusion was just a disappointment.
This was a case of Nintendo--as usual--being so afraid of alienating people, that they alienated people.
Zero Mission was just unnecessary. Remaking Metroid 1 is one thing, but they basically remade it to be Super Metroid. A solid game, but jeez, what the hell was the point? Particularly since the actual original NES Metroid was also re-released on the GBA. The original Metroid is still very rough around the edges, but Zero Mission was still unnecessary.
If there is one Metroid game deserving of a remake, it's Metroid II, as at least that one is less likely to be just another Super clone in the end, as it was a big difference from the other 2D titles, and the technology behind it was extremely primitive by comparison. As one of the first GB games, it's also pretty ugly and the environments all look the same.
Absolutely - I reference Other M as a means of approving of that 2D/3D shift for use in future games that would largely be 2D (whereas Prime was 3D occasionally locking the camera and movement to 2D).
@Quorthon A Metroid II remake is unlikely to fix many of its problems except graphics, the linearity is going to be a hard fix.
But if you really want one, I'd suggest checking AM2R out:
@Chaoz I loved Metroid Fusion. I'm still stuck in the first area in Super Metroid (I've had it for like 2 years), so the help was a welcome change. They could have their cake and eat it too by making the directions an option.
Prime didn't lock the camera movement to 2D, it locked targeting and strafing, but you still had freedom of 3D movement and activity.
I'll frequently make the point that even Other M's 3D segments were 2-D in design--locking movement completely, and in the rare 3D environments, movement was extremely rigid, and aiming was automatic, removing any depth from the gameplay.
I hate that game so much. Not just for the insane levels of sexism and how they ruined Samus as a character, but even almost every design element was annoying, over-simplified, or broken. It is literally the only game I ever finished, and I just sat there, like a little kid, arms crossed, fuming with anger at what I'd just witnessed and played. I see it as a game with almost no redeeming features at all, barring the generally enjoyable Metroid Queen battle. Everything else was crap.
Metroid II's bit of linearity was at least not forced or stifling. In Fusion, areas were stupidly locked after you exited them, and you were forced to "follow the arrows to the next point." Metroid II still allowed ample access to everything and opened up a much larger world of exploration as you advanced. There was merit in revisiting old areas. So I wouldn't necessarily call that one linear--not like Fusion or Other M.
It did in several Morph Ball puzzles to get powerups. But yeah, I can't recall any times that standing Samus was locked-down.
True that. On top of those points, the QTE's were what finally made me throw my hands up and trade in the game. I made it past the lava fish at the beginning of the second section, no problem, but the idea of putting up with more of what I had seen in the first section was just unbearable. I traded it in and watched videos of the rest of the game.
@Quorthon Well for one why are you comparing movies and tv shows to video games, a media that is completely different from both of those. The reason why Fusion is so "coddling" is become things has changed since the NES days. Kids are used to games being hand holding and linear. It like kids now are growing up sandbox games that let you do anything (Minecraft, Gray's Mod, ect). Metroid has to be modernize to get more people to buy it, so that's how we got Fusion. It maybe a dissapointment for "hardcore" fans (most Metroid fans think Metroid Fusion is a great game, even the ones that grew up with the original Metroid,) but it was for the better for the series. Metroid sales improved from that point on and it returned to it series's nonlinear roots.
Your Metroid Zero Mission agruement just falls right on it face. If Metroid Zero Mission is "unnecessary" then so are all remakes then, because Metroid Zero Mission improves on what the original game did like all remakes. And how the hell was it basically remade to Super Metroid? All it did was added some control mechanics from Super Metroid, nothing else. And having the original game on the GBA means nothing what so ever. The original Metroid is down right unplayable these days, not to mention it came out 2 years after Zero Mission.
@Quorthon Not really, there was no reason to revisit areas because you could collect everything in each area the first time you visited it. There were no secret areas that opened up when you got new abilities. There were no expansions that required abilities you haven't gotten yet. And the game's map is designed in a way that makes backtracking difficult because the overall flow of the game takes you down one long path the entire game. That's not going to be an easy fix.
I really liked Other M's gameplay. Lots of fun. I'm astounded that Hunters is the only Metroid game to feature online multiplayer. If Nitnendo cared enough to flesh the idea out, the online multiplayer on a console Metroid could be a HUGE selling point. Like a cross between Halo or Unreal tournament. They really should consider it for the next game.
@Operative I don't know. I think they already their online shooter in the shape of Splatoon.
Splatoon is fun, but it is nothing like a regular shooter and even further from Metroid. The two are hardly comparable.
@Operative I'm not saying they're comparable, rather that Splatoon already has the whole Nintendo's dedicated online shooter spot full.
Pretty much all remakes are pointless. I'm glad you're finally catching up. They are largely a waste of time and resources that could be better spent making something new. Particularly since Nintendo--specifically--resells the same old games over and over again as often as possible. For instance, the original Metroid is available on NES, GBA, Wii, Wii U, 3DS, and playable on the GC. The remake was totally unncessary, and it added nothing to the franchise since it was largely turned into a watered-down Super Metroid.
Your argument in defense of the lame-ass coddling and watering-down of difficulty of Fusion holds no merit in the face of the huge number of gamers who actively seek and crave these experiences. Fusion, by the way, sold fewer copies than Prime, and Prime was very much that ultra-challenging, non-hand-holding game you seem to think needs to be done.
So now, everything Nintendo makes is watered-down, anyone-can-do-it nonsense, and nothing targets more serious gamers looking for strict challenges or those types of games. Where is Nintendo's Bloodborne or Dark Souls? That should've been Metroid. And if this watering-down "so more people will buy it" is such a great idea, then why are sales of those watered-down Metroid games getting lower with each entry? Fusion sold below Prime, Zero sold below Fusion, Other M sold below Zero.
Clearly, watering down Metroid games "for the kiddies" is the wrong way to go about making Metroid games.
Metroid, like any franchise, needs to modernize to deliver experiences modern gamers expect. Failure to do so would be like releasing an online multiplayer game without voice chat or extremely limited content in this day and age. But in modernizing, Metroid should not have to sacrifice what defines the franchise--the stern exploration, the freedom, the joy of discovery, the challenge that comes with that freedom, the player-driven narrative.
In an era when games like Dark Souls and Bloodborne are celebrated for their challenge and depth, it's absurd to think Metroid could only succeed by watering down that very same formula for the kids.
Are they now allowed to have more than one online shooter? We should cancel federation force then. Plus, what I'm describing would be more like Halo. Rich single player, with a robust online multiplayer mode.
I'd like to see a metroid game in the same vein as batman: blackgate. I think 2.5D is a logical step and I found blackgate fun despite being very brief. I think Nintendo should start from scratch and reinvent the wheel. New story, New enemies, same samus. If Zelda can get away with it I'm sure samus can. Or just not get bogged down in story and concentrate on what Nintendo do best, fun
@Operative I'm not saying that they can't have a game that features online shooting, I'm referring to a dedicated online shooter, similar to Splatoon.
Now allow me to explain why I don't think it's a very good idea, at least based on the current situation. Nintendo has demonstrated through Splatoon, that although they can maintain a stable multiplayer they aren't very good at it. Splatoon is riddled with bad design choices from Nintendo, (at least the moment, since they may change that in the future). Splatoon's saving feature that allows players to ignore those flaws or at least deal with them is it's unique design and innovation as a shooter (while Metroid is a great franchise, the shooting aspect isn't the greatest attraction for it).
I think it would be better to wait and see how adept Nintendo becomes with properly managing an online shooter like Splatoon, before they try with something like Metroid (which is one of their most prized IPs). Since they are fairly new to creating dedicated online shooter.
@krootox Zelda is a special case in enough of its own. The very story of Zelda is its multiple stories and incarnations, so its allowed to get away with it. I'm not so sure about them doing that with Metroid.
@Quorthon Bloodborne is an overhyped turd. Downgraded RPG elements, clunky and stiff combat (grimdark monster hunter much?) made worse by the terrible camera controls, cheap and buggy AI, lame and cheap attempts to increase the difficulty (no checkpoints, overpowered enemies) framerate drops up the arse and long loading times. Setting is awesome but it's ruined by BB's repetitive gameplay and cheap artificial difficulty. Not even sure what compels you to compare it to Metroid.
@aromaiden ah okay, I see then. Yeah I can agree with that. Though my ideal scenario would be them hiring a western developer to work on the multiplayer while they make the single player, haha
@Aromaiden I suppose so. I think they do need to stop concentrating so hard on the story though. Create a fun engaging experience first then worry how to fit it into the established universe later
@Quorthon "Pretty much all remakes are pointless. I'm glad you're finally catching up,"
I'm not even going to read the rest of paragraph because that was the dumbest thing I read all week. I could sit here for hours typing why you can't be anymore wronger than you're are now, as if I didn't already put why remakes are a good thing in the end of my comment. The original Metroid is completely unplayable and just outdated now-a-days, it's a chore to play through and there is a reason why every Metroid fan remcomends Zero Mission over the original. Zero Mission fix every problem the original Metroid had and adds better controls. You're literally the only person that I heard being unironically disappoint with Zero Mission even though it fixed everything about the original Metroid and made it playable. Remakes in general are good things. Remakes can make a game that sucks compared to today standards good, remakes can bring new content to the game, remakes can fix the game bugs and make the game more streamline, ect. You have no reason to dislike remakes, so I hope you was just drunk when you typed that.
Before I start this I just want to say Super Metroid sold like crap compared to Fusion, so yes the sales slowly improved it self after Fusion. I have no idea how you thought I was trying to say Metroid Fusion sold better Prime because there was no point where I actually said that. If anything Fusion made more people buy Prime since most people said they enjoyed it. Zero sold less than Fusion because it's just a remake. Other M sold badly because people were mix about it. This should be common sense. And as I said before most Metroid veterans actually enjoyed Metroid Fusion (something I said twice now that you continue to ignore) so yes you are in the majority when it comes to anything you say about Fusion. Not only that but Metroid Fusion is a gateway game. Metroid Fusion was easier than many Metroid games but that allowed people to start playing the more hard and nonlinear games, again this should be common sense.
"Where's Nintendo Bloodborne or Dark Souls?"
Bayonetta, Xenoblade X, and soon Devil Third, a whole paragraph downed in just one sentence.
"Clearly, watering down Metroid games "for the kiddies" is the wrong way to go about making Metroid games."
Still better than Metroid, Metroid 2, and Super Metroid sells, plus I already said what needs to be said about this above.
On the Metroid modernization, may I show you Metroid Prime 1-3, all games that targets Metroid core audience? Also nice hit at Splatoon even though it got most of it content early in it life-span and all it content launched day one, just locked so people won't get bored of it.
"In an era when games like Dark Souls and Bloodborne are celebrated for their challenge and depth, it's absurd to think Metroid could only succeed by watering down that very same formula for the kids."
Funny how you say that when every Metroid game after Fusion targeted the core audience excluding Metroid Prime Federation Force. Quorthon you really need some sleep, you sound like you're drunk.
@Quorthon Hey, um I forgot to mention something. Sorry.
Apparently there has also been a lot of anger towards the next Dark Souls in the series, because they are attempting to make the game a bit easier, and fans are angry because of that (Also because fans are arguing that the games in the series are becoming easier as the series progresses). It seems that Dark Souls will also attempt to make itself more easy, probably in an attempt to attract a greater audience (as most game do that). Did you know about that?
Metroid Prime Hunters looks better than Federation forces.
@Chaoz. Nintendo Bloodborne or Dark Souls?"
"Bayonetta, Xenoblade X, and soon Devil Third, a whole paragraph downed in just one sentence."
Did you just compare Bayonetta to BloodBorne and Dark Souls because their mature rated games? Wow. And i think he means where's the Wiiu versions of those games? That are difficult,full of lore and of the same genre. I think that's what he meant. And this is for you and Quorthon just because you write paragraph after paragraph about something doesn't mean it makes sense or even worth reading.
@TwilightAngel Although this may have nothing to do with their conversation, you have to admit that their listed games, are all amazing and well done. (except Devil's Third since it hasn't been released yet) They are all great representations of their genres.
@TwilightAngel When did I say they were alike, and it's not my fault if Quorthon was being unspecific in the first place. I may be wrong about Bayonetta and Devil Third being comparable, but Xenoblade, Dark Souls, and Bloodborne are all compared. Xenoblade has tons of lore that you can choose to find out about, it can be difficult, and they're all action RPGs. If Quorthon meant a complete port of Bloodborne or Dark Souls, then yes I am very wrong. And you write as much nonsense as me and Quorthon, since most of the stuff you say are literally have nothing to back it up.
@lilith "Nintendo no longer has your kind of gamer in mind when they jump-start both new hardware and software initiatives."
Couldn't have said it better myself. The Wii was a "revolution" only in that it changed Nintendo's target audience completely, changed who Nintendo was pandering to with their content.
People single out Nintendo's hardware as being the issue with that company today, but i would argue that their design philosophy has polluted their software too, at least from the Wii era to now. The last truly incredible and innovative game to come out of their doors was, in my opinion, Super Mario Galaxy 1/2. The games they've made since then are either highly derivative and safe, or altogether unimaginative and out of touch. Most of their games are nice and polished. But there's no smart risk-taking or innovation anymore. The Wii U Zelda is the only game on the horizon that might remotely come close, but even that's uncertain at this point. It wouldnt surprise me if it borrows heavily from the already well-established Western RPG.
The trend you're noticing in the Metroid series can arguably be applied to many of Nintendo's core franchises. Other than gradual aesthetic changes across hardware, what has Pokemon done to innovate the genre in the last decade? Nothing. Its Pokemon with a new coat of paint and some new monsters.
Apart from tacky and unresponsive motion controls that will almost certainly be dropped in future installments, what has Zelda done to innovate in the last decade? Even 3D Mario hasn't done anything drastically imaginative since Galaxy, and 2D Mario has been a shell of its former self since Super Mario World!
The more I follow this company these days, the more it depresses me. This company used to drive the whole industry forward. Now the real innovation and the real industry standards are being created by Sony and MS, and Nintendo is stuck playing it safe, making themselves more irrelevant by the day.
Quorthon tends to cherry pick what he responds to and what he doesn't, so if you persist in this argument with him, prepare to see a lot of valid points go un-addressed. He takes only what he can make an argument out of and twists it around and ignores anything that that he can't. Most of his points have been shot down already anyway so I wouldn't expect much more than that from him at this rate. Besides, there's only so long someone can argue on a subject before they get bored of it and I believe he's reached that point and moved on to the next thing to bicker about.
On the topic of Zero Mission for example, there's not much more that can be said. Only hardcore Metroid fans would recommend the original over Zero Mission, because Zero Mission is more playable and has the original game included anyway. In the words of James Rolfe "There's a difference between something that's old school and something that's outdated. Old school is like the Atari 2600, the games are primitive but they're still fun to play. You can always go back to them. Outdated is something you never want to go back to." This describes the original NES Metroid perfectly. The game is badly dated, every room looks exactly the same except minor variations in color, the fact dying means restarting with only 30 energy means you have to grind more energy before tackling Norfair again and completely defeats the point of energy tanks if they aren't even going to be filled when you die, there was no means of switching beams so if you needed the ice beam you had to go back for it, the bosses were beyond pathetic, there was no map so you had to either follow a guide, play the game so much you had it all memorized, or draw your own map (which I actually did), you can only shoot straight forward, up, or down (down only while jumping), and the overall game design was archaic and messy. Zero Mission came through, cleaned the game up, streamlined it, and made it no longer suck. The only people who would recommend the original over the remake are people still stuck in 1986 and hardcore elitists who think everything has to be hard or else it sucks. Zero Mission's difficulty hits most of the right notes and can be made harder because Metroid games are flexible. This isn't even mentioning the hardware limitations of the original such as the terrible slowdown and such. I grew up with Metroid on NES and even I can't recommend it because you just had to be growing up in that time to really enjoy it. Play it today and it will just piss you off and kill your faith in the NES library. Zelda at least aged gracefully for the most part.
Regardless, I think it's best to simply give both games the credit they deserve rather than bash one and love the other. I've always been of the mind that one game isn't better than another, they're just different. That philosophy applies here too. Metroid was good for it's time and Zero Mission was good for it's time. There's no need for all the hating on one and loving on the other, appreciate both for what they are.
As for the idea that there is "nothing left to be done" that is simply not true and others have already addressed this. There's still loose ends to tie up, there's still ideas left to use, etc.. For example, wouldn't it be interesting to see a Metroid game done in a style similar to the Etrian games where the player fills out their map on the bottom screen or the Gamepad? The Etrian games turned the tedious map making from the 80's that most of us had to do into a fun experience within the game itself that feels immersive and adds to that sense of discovery. There's also no reason the Metroid series can't attempt something entirely new (and no I don't mean Federation Farce, that game undermines the entire series). For example, an open world Metroid game. Open world games are all the rage these days. Why not bring Metroid into the open world? Create a Metroid game with an expansive landscape that can be explored from the top or from within. Implement Samus's Gunship in ways similar to what Metroid Prime 3 started, but expand upon it, allowing to to serve as a fast travel function or mobile base. There's a ton of ideas still left for the series. The problem is that Nintendo is stuck on what to do with it. The fact they resorted to something like Federation Force shows they just don't know what to do with it. Personally, I'd be happy with just a Metroid II remake in the same vein as Zero Mission. Metroid II is one of my favorites but like the first game, it's a little bit outdated. Retro themselves toyed with the idea if I recall.
As for remakes being pointless, again I'm just rehashing what others have said but, no. They aren't. They introduce a new generation of gamers to the older games but do so in a way that makes them more accessible, and change things up just enough that those who had played the game already can enjoy the new features. For example, Majora's Mask 3D introduced things that made the game so much more convenient to play, including a save system that is sensible. There is nothing wrong with remakes or remasters, they have plenty of uses and should be appreciated just as much as brand new games. The problem stems from companies like Capcom whom if you look at their list of recent or upcoming games, most of them are remasters or ports. And they aren't even done particularly well, with Mega Man Legacy basically being a laughing-stock among the Mega Man fans and the port of Street Fighter IV on the PS4 being so undercooked that Capcom has to roll out patches to fix the colossal mess they've created.
@Quorthon Nah, Fusion was OK and I like where the ending leads to.
@FlaygletheBagel To be honest I find that all Companies (Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo) play it incredibly safe now. They do have the occasional show of new and exciting innovation, but it's usually overshadowed by their constant repetitiveness. I feel that at the moment, companies are to frightened to take risks and its really showing now.
@Chaoz "And you write as much nonsense as me and Quorthon, since most of the stuff you say are literally have nothing to back it up." That's funny it really is.
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