It's safe to say that Nintendo's E3 efforts have been received with mixed responses from fans. Especially given that Microsoft and Sony arguably brought the thunder this year, many expected that Nintendo would have some similarly headline grabbing announcements to match. What we received instead was not what most had in mind, but brings a good question: what do Nintendo fans expect and want out of the company's games?
Whatever the answer is to this question, it seems that it's not what we've been given to look forward to over the next year. As mentioned in our talking point during the LA event, we received the franchises that we wanted but not how some would have wanted them. Fans vocally demanded an HD Animal Crossing, and Nintendo gave us an amiibo-focused party game. There was hope for a new Metroid, and Nintendo gave us a divisive 3DS co-op game. Fans expected a new Paper Mario, and Nintendo gave us a crossover with the Mario & Luigi series. The focus of the Digital Event was around the concept of transformation, but it seems that this is where Nintendo's message hit problems. Judging from the backlash and response to the announcements made, it appears that some fans want evolution, not transformation.
The difference between the two is simple, yet major - evolution is the logical next step for the series, while transformation is a logical side step. Both of them mean progression, but evolution means moving forward while transformation means taking things in a different direction, not necessarily forward. A good example of evolution could be found in the original Metroid Prime. It took a 2D metroidvania series and brought it into a 3D first person perspective, while adding in new gameplay elements. An example of a transformation would be something like Kirby Canvas Curse. It took a cutesy platformer series with a modular combat system, and made a touchscreen centric game with a distinct gameplay system that made it unique within its series. Both were fantastic games and both progressed and expanded their respective series, but they achieved different goals and were ultimately headed in different directions.
For some fans this all boils down to the old adage: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. We're not asking Nintendo to reinvent the wheel, the idea goes, but we're asking it to improve upon and refine it. Nintendo has always built its brand on the cornerstone of innovation, of delivering fresh and unique gameplay experiences that simply can't be found anywhere else in quite the same way. But, it seems that a number of us want Nintendo to deliver these brand new gameplay experiences independent of one another, so as to preserve the legacy of each franchise. There's nothing wrong with Nintendo delivering an ambitious new co-op shooter on the 3DS, but when it slaps the Metroid name on the box where the core game seems to be anything but, fans get antsy.
So, how could Nintendo have better pleased the vocal online fan base? Perhaps by striking a better balance between tradition and innovation. Long standing game franchises have been long standing for a reason and it's important that they maintain the core identities that have made them famous, but it's also important that they don't stagnate or get too reliant on past success. Case in point, the New Super Mario Bros. sub-series properly captures the spirit and refined nature of Super Mario platformers, but the later games have arguably failed to contribute or build upon that in any meaningful way - Super Mario Maker is building a lot of buzz, then, as a result of its bold approach to Mario level making. Some of the other games in this past Digital Event, however, seem to go a bit too far in their transformation; by focusing so much on a new approach, they lose sight of what made the franchises they've come from so popular.
Of course, let's not lose our heads and immediately write off the new games Nintendo announced this year. Star Fox Zero certainly seems to show that Nintendo still knows how to evolve its franchises. By opting to "reimagine" aspects of past entries such as Star Fox 64 - for example - we can be assured that a significant amount of the original rail shooter DNA of this series will be present and accounted for. However, adding in features such as the transformable Arwing and dual screen, motion-centric controls and more, show that new ideas and concepts are able to bring a modern touch to this tried and tested gameplay; building it into something that's distinct and possibly improved from the source material it's inspired by. Time will tell, of couse.
And to be entirely fair, transformation doesn't necessarily have to be the enemy of evolution. As Kensuke Tanube stated when interviewed about Metroid Prime: Federation Force, the game was inspired partially by Metroid Prime 2: Echoes' multiplayer mode and partially by the newer hardware of the New 3DS. The title was born both out of desire to create a multiplayer-focused Prime game and to expand the lore and background of the Metroid universe; it's not a game being made for the sake of it, but rather as an experiment born out of passion. Beyond that, it'll certainly mark several series' firsts, as this is the first exclusively multiplayer focused Metroid game and the first to not be starring Samus. These changes may be unwelcome to some, and for valid reasons, but it represents an exciting new chapter for the Metroid series and, for better or worse, will move the series forward.
Perhaps the main point to take away is that experiments such as these in transformation don't necessarily impede the existence or development of more traditional entries down the line, but rather they represent new ideas and concepts that could serve to expand and grow the core series in ways never previously imagined. Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker is a good example of this. Though the initial idea may have been born in Super Mario 3D World, the particular concept of puzzle platforming was expanded in such a way in Captain Toad that it could very well feature again in a future Mario title as an expanded sub quest or level set. Nothing was taken away from the main Mario series, rather something was added.
As always, we'd like to hear what you think. What do you expect out of Nintendo games? What do you think of Nintendo experimenting with some of its franchises in its upcoming line-up?
Comments 255
Problem is that the fans just aren't grateful. It doesn't matter if we're getting good games, because they're not the ones the fans wanted. I'm sure the spinoffs will turn out great - I remember people denying Splatoon last year.
Sometimes fans just don't know what they really want.
Yeah, I'm all for spinoffs and such when we've got the regular games as well. The games they announced at the event were no different from what we usually get, except for the fact that that was just about all we got. It made us wonder what the point of any of it was. When we scream for a certain game year after year, why are they vehemently AGAINST giving it to us?
The problem is that this is a new Nintendo system and we want the main titles for the system, not some off shoot. You can add those games afterwards, and they could be fun. However, they need to do a better job at giving people who buy their system the main game they want, and then work on off shoots. Think how Toad's Treasure Hunter was well received because we already got a Nintendo 3D world. Give people an Animal Crossing, then givie them board game. As far as Starfox goes I really can't judge the game until I've played it. It just seems like it came out with limited content and limited graphics, so it does seem like the Starfox I was hoping for. I felt like this would be an eshop game and a better one would come out after that. I'm not blind to say it could be amazing, but I need to see more.
i don't see why they are hating the spinoffs so much. It doesn't mean the rest of the games are going to be like this. Like when Mario did sports games, we still got Mario platformers. When LoZ did four swords, we still got TP, SS, and other games to that fashion. I think people are writing off the games way to quickly because it wasn't the one they exactly wanted. It's like the developers have no right to try other things with their games.
I took this year as Nintendo indirectly stating that it's moving development focus to the NX. I'm looking forward to most of the stuff it announced this year, but there's no denying that these are second or third tier games we're being given.
...They hate change, that's the main problem. They want a powerful console, they want a normal control, they want a real sequel to Super Mario 64. Etc and etc.
I welcome change, innovation and risk taking. And since these games could be fun then I will give them a chance.
@rockerztonight1 I know I have no interest in a AC MP clone. Federation Force could be fun, but I'll wait for a review before I snag it.SFZ could be fun. The graphics thing doesn't bother me, but If it's too easy or short It will be beyond dissapointing.
I just get the feeling that all of the games people wanted to see are in development for the next system. I'm just guessing about that, but aside from everything we where aware of before hand, Nintendo's e3 just seemed like a couple of small quickly produced offering's to hold Wii U owners over for a little while. It's no big secret fans wanted to see new core installment's in AC and Metroid.
I think it's safe to assume most fan's do know what they want, regardless if it's new or old.
Fan expectation and Nintendo's development teams will probably never mix together. What we want and what we get in the end are most likely going to be 2 different things and whether or not the game we get deserves to be criticized should be (in my opinion) on the game itself and how it plays instead of it being something we never wanted. Some of the best Nintendo titles are made without us wanting it, however those title are either new IPs or based on already popular and "living" series.
I've calmed down a lot now and I'm really looking forward to Mario Tennis U..The announcements weren't as spectacular as we'd have liked but good old uncle Nintendo always seem to know best even when others think they've lost the plot. I trust them to make great games.
Part of the problem may be that ninty knows they will be forgiven anything.
This whole section reminds me of the time between Mario Party 8 and 9.
Mario Party 8 came out, and everyone says 'meh, more of the same. They should really try something new.'
Mario Party 9 changed things up, and for me and my mates, is very fun. However, the fanbase immediately goes for the throat and screams 'why is it different?! more of the same!' Same thing happened with 10, which I will add, is SUPER fun, especially Bowser Party.
Nintendo just can't please anybody these days.
Great comparison at the end between Super Mario 3D World->Captain Toad's Treasure Tracker to Metroid Prime 2->Federation Force. Federation Force in particular has gotten a lot of flack, just because it's not Metroid Prime 4. Fans aren't judging the games we saw at E3 in terms of quality, but rather, whether it fits in line with what they want. There have been so many instances where a game gets hated on before people even play it.
I completely understand why people are upset at these spinoffs, since it seems like an insult to them, but so long as the games are of high quality and fun to play, I don't see how it's a big issue (though I can't justify Animal Crossing WiiU).
@tsukipon why? because unless you like everything, there aren't many games to look forward, even on 3ds. People wanted more games and all Nintendo gave them was low budget games and stuck their IP on them to look more appealing, but it just made worse on IPs people wanted a new game for years.
Had they promised a couple games which doesn't seems to be just fillers, the complains would just be the vocal minority, like with every spin off(in every system). Hyrule Warriors, Pokemon Shuffle and many others prove people are open to spin off. God, Mario Kart is probably bigger than SMB nowadays.
@k8sMum I agree. I feel like I'm getting burned with the Wii U. As soon as the next system is out the big N will drop most if not all support for the U. I haven't had the system nearly as long as my 360&ps3 ( which still are being supported),and I'm not going to jump out of my seat to purchace the next console. Not after I supported the U through the droughts. The lack of third party support. The lack of listening to the fan's or anyone else outside the Nintendo corporation.
I'll be waiting awhile to see how things play out with the next console, because I'm not doing the Wii U scenario all over again.
Speaking of things we wanted but getting something we never knew we wanted how about that Mother 1 announcement!
@RennanNT I just think people are overreacting because it wasn't the "game they wanted". Then don't buy the game. I was upset at the lack of games at E3, but not about the spinoffs. They may seem like crap to you, but they might be fun. Assuming a game is trash when you haven't even played it is a bit silly to me. It could be fun. You may like it, but because it wasn't the METROID PRIME WII U or the next ANiMAL CROSSING NEW LEAF, it must be trash. :/
The reason there isn't a full Metroid, Animal Crossing, or Mario Galaxy 3 Wii U game is because they take ages, cost loads, and very few people buy them due to interest and install base.
What we've got is cheap stop gaps, and although it's annoying, it's hardly that surprising either.
@tsukipon
The hate for spin-offs comes from wanting another entry in the main series.
People are mad because in these cases, we get the spin-offs, but no new entries in the series. No one worries about kirby, zelda, mario or DK getting spinoffs because the main series for them are always getting games.
People are fans of a series because they like the gameplay. They want more of it, but better!
Complaining that developers can't do what they want with their games is like complaining that chefs can't do what they want with their dishes.
If you like dish for the sour tangy flavor, then they alter it to sweet and spicey, you may like the new flavor, but you really come for that other flavor! And if you don't like it, the dish is ruined for you!
@khaosklub tbh, the terrible wii U sales doesn't really give Nintendo an incentive to go all out and make the big budget blockbuster titles... Or they might be saving them for later or even the rumored NX. I mean they didn't even talk about Zelda Wii U at this E3 and there is still much we don't know about it. There is a rumored Metroid Prime in the works so who knows that they have in the future, but they have to release something to make money. I just did a SWOT analysis on Nintendo, and one of their main weaknesses was the limited number of titles it relies on. What they need is more third party developers and games so that they can spend more time making these blockbusters, because let's face it. If they released a Zelda game every year, for example, it's probably would not be as good.
I have been quite vocal about disliking the upcoming Animal Crossing :amiibo festival game. I have to say though, that it is absolutely not because I was expecting a full AC on Wii U. I wasn't (and don't want one despite having fully completed New Leaf, 800 hours, all pwp, all gold badges etc), but that's not why I dislike amiibo festival. I see no gameplay value for that game whatsoever. I see a game built around a gimmick, a game that exists solely to promote the gimmick (as was described by the developer). I see a game the quality of which Nintendo themselves are downplaying by offering it for free. Nintendo is synonymous with gimmicks and that's okay as long as they exist to complement gameplay and not the other way around. Sure other games exist that I don't find fun personally, but can see the appeal for others - Smash, Mario Kart, for example. Amiibo Festival is not a game - it will be a chore to get through. Enjoy it if you like/can, but the best part of it for me is that I can't actually be forced to like it or, more importantly, to play it. Lap it up if you want more games with no gameplay value or grow a pair and stand up and say something is sub-par if you dare. Normally I give everything a chance, but amiibo festival has no redeeming qualities that I can see and would come above watching paint dry in the list of boring things I'd rather not spend my time doing.
There is nothing wrong with having a differing opinion to others, especially if it is backed up with argument and reason. Simply dismissing others with an insubstantial value judgement such as "they don't know what they want" or "they are ungrateful" is not valid. People, do, generally, have a pretty good idea of what they like and dislike and don't need others to tell them what their preferences should be.
I am hyped for Tri Force Heroes and SMT x FE, FE Fates and a host of others. I have Pokemon, Mario Kart and Smash, none of which I like to play, but can appreciate the appeal for others. Liking Nintendo games and supporting them in general doesn't mean I don't notice when Nintendo reveals something that's actually bad for the future of gameplay.
@tsukipon
Also, if the spinoff happens to be more successful than the main series entries, there is a real risk of not getting another main series game.
Look at starfox. Since the n64, the true starfox experience has been lost. We want more of THAT starfox with more added, though some seem to just want the same starfox with better graphics.
It's been over 10 years since the last 2D metroid, and 8 years since the last prime game. Fans were fine with pinball back when because we were getting actual games. 8 years, and they give us a spinoff to a dead series!
Speaking of myself... I would like a Home Console ( Wii U ) Metroid Game That Pushes the Wii U Hardware like Bayonetta 2 ... Not a knockoff 3DS Shovelware game ... I am Super Stoked about Star Fox Zero & Yoshi's Woolly World ... But I like many others were disappointed in the lack of Triple A Title Suprises ... Give US a Kid Icarus U , Luigi's Mansion U , Metroid U & Zelda U. With the Lack of Triple A Third Party Games People Expect these for Their Wii U's .... Fall 2013 to Holiday 2014 was a Great Example we Got Super Mario 3D World , Sonic Lost World, Wonderful 101, Mario Kart 8, Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze, Hyrule Warriors, Bayonetta 2, Smash Bros Wii U ..... Great Triple A Games for Our Beloved Wii U !!!!!!!!!
Why try to fix what ain't broken? I'm very much bothered by the notion, that something needs fixing just because it's old. It's not just Nintendo, who are struggling to do this, but other developers as well. They just manage to stay ahead of the issue by providing enough distractions in the process, like spectacular graphics, sex and violence in hitherto unknown detail and other shenanigans. Nothing e.g. EA/Bioware did with any of the Dragon Age games "fixed" or "innovated" on the BG-formula. All it did was dumb it down, pretty it up and go all GoT on it - so, of course it sold, but as a game it was poorer for it. Some people were angry, but mostly, people just realized they were no longer the target audience and they moved on to other stuff, which coincidentally ^^ managed to show up just in time on platforms like kickstarter.
I think Nintendo is sitting between two stools right now, and thus it's message is all muddled - trying to pander to the old fans, but also trying to move on, innovate for a new audience and gain new supporters. It's a lot easier to focus on just one of those two things, and if Nintendo wants to keep doing this, they have to up their game. We all know they can do it, they managed it before. Just the jump from 2D to 3D was a showcase for their ability to truely innovate, totally beyond any gimmicky controller and stuff like that.
I think the real issue here is that they have moved on as far as their creative potential goes. They are betting on the NX big time, and I'm looking forward to see if that pays off. I don't expect any more great experiments for the WiiU - well, Zelda aside of course, but we have yet to wait and see how much of an experiment that really is.
@tsukipon
Except big budget blockbusters aren't a necessity. They can easily make above indie quality 2D metroids and sell them for $20. Give a budget based on projected demand. Sure, fans will be upset if prime 4 isn't AAA budget, but they'd prolly still buy it and enjoy it so long as it's fun.
Samus is a bounty hunter, give us an episodic game for 3ds where you just chase a bounty. A small bitesized piece of prime. If it sells well, make more episodes! Lowered risk, less droughtlike because each episode feels like a new release, and fans can be happy!
Sure, people will still complain, but they won't be outright insulted and N will still make their money
I think the main problem people had with E3 was they wanted to see what nintendo had planned down the line and what we got was very little. Right now once christmas is gone there is very little in the line up for the wii u for 2016. Hopefully nintendo have some quality games in development that they'll share with us in the next direct.
"Nintendo's Approach to Transforming Franchises Clashes With Fan Expectations"
These days it seems Nintendo does that more than ever—largely for all the wrong reasons imo.
@khaosklub
I disagree that the hate for spin-offs is always engendered by wanting more main series entries. I dislike Amiibo Festival because it's an utterly terrible game, not because it's not something else. If it were any other franchise or even just for all amiibo, I would still dislike it for having no gameplay value. Sometimes games are just bad (even Nintendo games).
@khaosklub when it comes to Metroid, I sort of see your point. The game hadn't been out for a long time and then this, but I don't think they're gonna forget about their original game. Not in this era. Losing Samus indefinitely might be a bad thing. It's bad enough there aren't many female protagonists, so Idk if Nintendo is gonna try that.
However, I don't think Zelda Triforce Heroes, Hyrule Warriors and Animal Crossing party games is gonna ruin the main franchises. A new Zelda is being made and Animal Crossing New Leaf isn't even that old yet. Granted it is not a console, but I don't think New Leaf is any less fun/successful because it is on handheld. It's the same thing on a smaller screen.
I also don't think that Nintendo fans would have been happy if they released a 2D indie platformer anymore than they are upset about this. It would have been something like "WE WANT A NEW METROID AND THEY GAVE US THIS?" I also think everyone's expectations are high, so anything less than AAA Metroid would be considered trash. You have a high outlook on the community, but I don't agree with it.
I actually don't see the issue with the new Star Fox. It looks great, feels very nostalgic but has innovative elements to keep it fresh.
@MrGawain
This is true, but that's because of fan expectations of the greatest graphics, which I think is the greatest cost in a game, and only getting pricier.
But since fan expectation doesn't seem to matter, there's no reason for the games to be full AAA releases.
Lower budget games would be rather satisfying to hardcore fans who basically want the same formula enhanced.
What's weird is that we are being given so many spin offs all at the same time. The timing of it is so incredibly awkward. It's a sudden rush of strange new content and strange new content ONLY. For the forseeable future all we get is a lot of strange(not necessarily bad) stuff and zero of what fans have been actively clamoring for for yyeeaarrss.
Not grateful? I don't feel the need to be grateful when I'm paying for things. It is Nintendo who should be grateful for our continued support. There aren't many of us left so they should be very careful!
I'd like to say two things to Nintendo..
Firstly if you're going to do a few spin offs then make sure you have enough of your bread and butter / AAA titles coming out at the same time... For many the WiiU is a second system only bought to play the games you are (for the foreseeable future) not providing!
And secondly, transforming things from beautiful butterflies into ugly caterpillars is plain dumb. Did you think we wouldn't notice!? It looks to me like you are cutting corners and taking easy options... Then telling us we don't understand when we pick you up on it!?
I use to love nintendo, but everything they do lately makes me hate them now. They seem to never listen to their fans or the third party and what we want, instead just do what they want and all we get now is under powered systems with some kinda gimmick, and only cutesy Nintendo games, and pretty well no third party support unless it's childish Lego games or skylander, and all this at a ridiculous price for the system.
The fans aren't ungrateful, or don't know what they want, their just sick of a company that doesn't deliver what they want, and instead go to companies that do: Sony and Microsoft.
I use to defend Nintendo all the time in what they did, but I can't defend them anymore. They have truly gone downhill and need a miracle to even come back and compete with their competition in the console market, because most there fans don't trust them to deliver, and know the third party won't go back to them!
I would have never said it before, but I'm saying it now, Nintendo should leave the console market and just focus on their portable market. I'm not saying they should go third party, but at this point they would probably get more sales with there games on PlayStation or Xbox consoles than on their own consoles.
@Goomba77 What corners have they been cutting?
I like spin-offs too but the thing was that they were too many of them which really led to the ultimate displeasment of fans starting with Metroid FF and Animal Crossing amiibo festival to finish it off. I like the look of Starfox and all but it is more of the same, it's an overrated series to begin with and will forever stay mediocre. I wish more efforts were put to F-Zero but then again Nintendo fans are too demanding as it is.
@tsukipon
As an f-zero fan, I think they would forget the series. I don't think we'll ever get a new entry unless it was low budget.
Fans would say that about metroid, but they'd still buy it and enjoy it. It's why we buy the virtual console games and are waiting for zero mission's release. I don't have that high an outlook, I just know that dispite their grumblings, they'd still enjoy the game. Look at the love for games like shovel knight. There is a market!
As a mega man fan, when mega man 9 was released, it was great, with 10, I fell in love.
I only worry about controls of the new starfox, but notice a lot of criticism about graphics. I think that's primarily the reason we can't have nice things. I personally couldn't care less if it looked like an N64 game, so long as it gave me the starfox experience!
I wish Nintendo never said anything about the NX. It seems to have caused more ill than good. All i hear is whining about an unsunstantiated move to the new platform in terms of development resources.
Consider this: Two of the best positive jumps ever in Nintendo game franchise generations were from the 8bit versions of games like Super Mario Bros, Metroid, Zelda, Donkey Kong, Mother and Punch-Out!!, to their 16bit versions, and from the 16bit versions of games like Super Mario World, Metroid, Zelda, Donkey Kong, F-Zero and Star Fox, to their 64bit versions.
Both times it was brilliantly executed evolution and noticeable but natural jumps forward in the underlying technology and gameplay design that kept the new games genuinely fresh, exciting and ultimately satisfying for the fans of those series and just gamers in general. Nintendo just built upon and improved everything that had come before in the previous game(s) in the franchise when it created the latest game in the franchise.
It's when Nintendo decides to almost throw away a lot of what it improved upon and honed to near perfection across multiple generations, or just half-*sses it, that I think it all starts to go wrong, and more so when a game has been around for multiple generations in a slowly but ever evolving and improving form; when there are things that fans have come to love and absolutely expect to basically just work perfectly.
You've got to keep moving with the times but you can't just throw away all the things that made fans fall in love with these games in the first place—or sh*t on the fan expectations, just for the sake of trying out silly gimmicks or even quickly throwing together new games in franchise in the hopes of making a quick and easy buck when times are bad.
If you're going to try weird random stuff and half-*ss certain elements then do it with new games that fans don't deeply care about. Or at the very least, make those cheap spin-off titles alongside the proper and lovingly crafted new games in the franchise, which evolve and expand upon everything that made the fans love them in the first place—but certainly not instead of them.
PS. I think Star Fox Zero is one of the weird examples, where on the surface it might appear to have given fans more of exactly what they want but in reality I think most of the changes fundamentally alter the core experience in such a way that it's not actually the same game anymore; such as the really convoluted and divisive and forced gimmicky GamePad aiming. It also hasn't done anything to really bring the game into the modern era in terms of things like presentation, graphics, a sense of scale and production value, or the truly epic and cinematic "Star Wars" like experience that Star Fox is worthy of imo. From what I can see, it's a half-*ssed retread of an old game but with a stupid gimmick added to try and convince people it's "fresh", "new" and exciting again, but that's about the only way it is "fresh" and "new", and not in a good way. It isn't however quite as much of a blatant kick in the teeth as something like the new Animal Crossing game
@Sakura
have you played the amiibo festival game yet? how is it a bad game? you can't really claim it's bad until it's actually out.
but I think the main issue is with federation force. some people are upset about the other spin-off probably because there is nothing BUT spin-offs for the series's. Animal crossing still has recent main series games, so getting a spin-off now while people aren't overly thirsty for "evolution" as Vogel puts it, usually isn't a problem.
Amiibo festival looks to me like Mario Party.
@khaosklub We can say amiibo festival is a bad game because we have seen people play it and we can judge the game accordingly. We can claim its bad because we KNOW what the gameplay is.
@Toadthefox i am pretty confident a main title for Animal Crossing will be coming to WiiU, but since HD development takes its toll on Nintendo dev teams, amiibo Festival is most probably reusing assets and code they are developing for AC for WiiU and instead of not having a enough holiday titles they focused to develop something quick and reusing assets and especially free-to-play with amiibo functions
Personally I love Nintendo risky attitude, sure now we are talking of extreme cases, but even more "canon" sequels often have some features or changes that can throw a fan outside the comfort zone previous games builded.
I admit, by nature people prefer more of the same, more of what they know they love and I'm no exception to that, but so far Nintendo got it right very often (if not always XD) when they "betrayed" my expectations.
However it worries me how some fans reacted, I can understand the dissapointment many felt, but it's incredibly sad and annoying how some fans are trying to hate as much as they can some unexpected spin-off. Can't they just focus on saying/shouting/"petioning" they are tired to wait a new main entry without bashing the spin-offs? -.-;
@Koopa-King
it's a board game, like mario party. Why is mario party not bad and amiibo festival is?
@tsukipon You should also understand they do directs throughout the year; I'd bank on the fact they have more to announce in the next 6 months. Also, everyone needs to realize whats coming out.
Rodea the Sky Solder
Devil's Third
Fatal Frame
Super Mario Maker
Star Fox Zero
Yoshi's Woolly World
Xenoblade X
Skylanders W/exclusive Nintendo characters
Mighty No. 9
Mario Tennis Ultra Smash
Legend ok Kay anniversary
This is only some of the Wii U games coming this year; look at the bigger picture nintendo knows what their doing
@Arlo "Yeah, I'm all for spinoffs and such when we've got the regular games as well."
IMO this is the main point. If we had gotten proper games within these series before they had announced these tiny spinoffs, practically no-one would've complained [about these spinoffs].
@Koopa-King I see these spin offs as cut corners... Stop-gaps.
Metroid FF, the Animal Crossing board game etc (even Mario Maker to an extent vs Galaxy) must all be easier and quicker to develop than the games where these franchises earned their reputations and gained their following... The games that Nintendo consumers want to buy.
@khaosklub I have watched the trailers and the treehouse footage extensively and can say that I have a fair impression of what the game is like. It is such a basic concept - a board game, bonus/detract, one with the most points wins that I can be fairly sure that it is absolutely naff. "Have you fallen from a plane at 30 000 feet? How do you know you wouldn't enjoy it?" It's that kind of thing. I haven't just made a snap decision to say that I don't like it with no justification whatsoever.
Amibbo festival has no party games - the game are one player, stop the spinner, choose the card. They are minigames, NOT party games.
@khaosklub the fact that Nintendo contacted Criterion to make the game means they are trying to revive it. I heard it was some issues with who actually owns the IP, but I'm none too sure the real facts. The Virtual Console games are different though. You buy them because you've played them and/or played another game and wanted to play them all. You wouldn't expect an old game to have stellar graphics. The gaming industry today is all about graphics over anything else, which to me means mostly nothing. A beautiful game can play like crap whereas a 2D sprite game can be fun. When it comes to shovel knight, no one had expectations for it. It's not a franchise. Metroid is a franchise so I don't think the same type of game would be well received when games like Mario Land 3D World, heck even SSB have HD graphics and are great to look at, in the least.
Controls are always an issue, like how people just hate the wiimote and motion controls but yeah, idk what about the graphics. Looks fine to me, but you see if they are complaining about star fox, imagine metroid
@khaosklub MM 9&10 where excellent budget titles. As a MM fan I really enjoyed them.
I think you're on to something with the lower budget games. I'd buy a 2d Metroid that was episodic in a heartbeat. It would demand less development resource's and would please long time fan's. It would be something! I'm surprised Nintendo didn't think of this themselves.
I don't mind spin-offs, but I would really like to see more main-series games. My main problem was the lack of new main-series games and blockbusters announced. Sure, there's plenty of games coming, but quite a few of them don't appeal to me.
I honestly think people just want something to complain about, especially on the internet. I couldn't tell you how many times I've tried some game I never thought I'd be interested in and ended up enjoying it.
@Sakura
a lot of people like jumping out of planes...
a lot of people like board games...
you don't have to like either... doesn't make them bad... just means you're not interested in it.
@khaosklub Mario party has actual GAMEPLAY. amiibo festival is a slideshow. There is 0 actual places in Amiibo festival where I saw the player being engaged by the game and requiring them to use anything more than the amiibo itself. Mario party has minature games which you can interact with. Interaction>Slideshow
I have no problem with Nintendo trying to freshen up franchises, branch into other genres and do spin-offs. The problem is, all their attempts are watered down games. Federation Force, Tri-Force Heroes and Animal Crossing U are all cheap and quick to churn out compared to other games in their franchise. They're not taking risks with these games, because there's very little expense gone into making them.
Fires up Animal Crossing Plaza, dreaming off an actual AC Wii U
Thinks about E3 2015 again
Sigh..
Problem is that if you ask consumers what they want, they tend to answer "more of the same but different"
@mordo887 What does this have to do with me? Was it because I was a little upset at E3? In fact, I've been here defending Nintendo and it's E3 titles announced in this place so yeah, I have no real issues with Nintendo. It is upsetting not seeing the big games coming out this year, but no matter what I'm still gonna buy the games. Like the two Zelda games are a must have for me. Star Fox as well, and I might even get animal crossing, and I never cared about Metroid so those games are of no consequence to me.
Forgot about Fire Emblem Fates <33333333333 and the SMTxFe looks fun too. Also tbh, the only game I care about from that list is probably star fox, with slight interest in Fatal Frame. But that's just me and I'm not bashing Nintendo for it, am I?
@Peach64 I dont really see how Tri-Force Heroes or Federation Force are "cheap".
@Koopa-King Unless you play as Luigi of which you automatically win by doing absolutely nothing (Sorry I had to)
@Peach64 I dont see how Triforce Heroes is cheap either. I care not for the Metroid or Animal Crossing game that much. Triforce Heroes looks like a fun handheld multiplayer AND you are acting as if Nintendo isn't working on Zelda Wii U.
No Respect, I tell ya! No Respect.
Nintendo are fools.. They've always known what we want but failed to deliver. We needed trailers for Zelda.. We needed to see another Mario Galaxy, a real Metroid..
Honestly if all they showed us was a HD Remaster / Remake of F-Zero GX with online capabilities it probably would've blown us away.. Lol.. Instead we got Blast Ballz.. and the Arwing morphing into a chicken.
@shad0w-7 Its what happened to previous Nintendo systems. I don't see any new software releases for the Wii, the console that dominated the 360&ps3. Digital and retail games have slowed down on ps3&360, but after nearly a decade of gaming on said systems , I feel like I got my money's worth.
@tsukipon
and the fact that they didn't bother with it since shows that the resources are more lucratively spent on mario kart.
explain this expectation thing to kickstarter, where spiritual successors and gameplay clones with mediocre graphics are getting funded... maybe not coming to fruition, but people want it regardless of how retro it looks.
sure, people have expectations for metroid, but nintendo seemingly doesn't care anyway, as seen with federation force. So why should they care about people whining that something looks like it could have been on the gamecube?
my point is, that if metroid doesn't have top of the line high budget graphics, people will complain, but they'll still buy the game and enjoy it. they'll say "it looks like garbage, I want an HD metroid! why do you hate money nintendo?", but they'll still continue to buy and enjoy SD metroid.
and yeah, people are criticizing star fox for it, but they're still hyped to get it. even though the NL editors keep bashing it for looking last gen, I'm sure they're all gonna play it.
@Koopa-King
do you get to pick different paths? board game right there. it's like monopoly, that's just how most board games work, there have been plenty of board game video games. I don't like them either... but doesn't make them bad. looks like a perfectly fine board game. people like board games. I know some people who are really excited for it, mostly female, that are also very excited for happy home designer.
@MrYuzhai
I really don't see that doing well. F-zero GX was top notch graphics for the time, and it didn't impress anyone. I got my copy for $12 at Kmart. Online wouldn't be fun either... especially with custom machines. whoever takes the lead in the beginning basically wins the race so long as they're competent... or you'll just have a bunch of snakers breaking the game...
@khaosklub About F-Zero http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/06/23/burnout-dev-criterion-nearly-made-a-wii-u-f-zero-game
Federation Force is a different kind of Metroid game and it has nothing to do with anything. I think the expectations of fans can be ridiculous, and Nintendo was trying something new. It might not always be a good thing, but at least they try instead of giving the same old game all the time. The graphics are a stylized choice and it's a handheld game, it is not? I don't expect FULL HD from my 3DS although it is nice.
I still think your logic is flawed when it comes to graphics. It's one of the main reasons people don't even buy the Wii U over Playstation, or Xbox.
@khaosklub But monopoly involves planing and strategy and using money wisely. In amiibo festival you move around and somtimes things can happen with no involvement with the player. Unity games on steam greenlight have more developed gameplay than amiibo festival! And calling it a board game is a little strange seeing as a board game involves GAMES
@Mk_II
how is that a problem? we want more of the same, but different, essentially an expansion of the previous games. we want the metroid prime mechanic with new places to explore, new types of enemies and challenges, and new weapons. more of the same, but different.
@khaosklub Had you read my previous comments, you would have seen that I have already stated there are many other games that are not for me, but that I can still see have appeal for others - Smash etc. AC:FE is in a different category because I see no value in it whatsoever. It is a bad game. That is only an opinion and I won't force you to take it on board. However, it is still valid and I won't be forced to recant by someone who actually hasn't done any research. I know it's not for me. I worry that it's not for anyone. It's a poor effort and that's not a route I'd like to see Nintendo taking, especially given the foray into mobile.
@tsukipon I just listed things for the Wii U scheduled to come within 2015, I saw a different comment and responded to you; sorry!
Doing spin offs and trying new things is fine. They just shouldn't have done it with Metroid when its been so long since a good traditional entry.
@Inkling "Problem is that the fans just aren't grateful."
To me that's just a load of bull and a kind of cop-out response, from both Nintendo PR and defensive fanboys, to not giving long time fans what they want and expect from the company, and actually satisfying those loyal customers.
When Nintendo gave us games like Super Mario World, Super Metroid, Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, Donkey Kong Country and Earthbound—all brilliant new games in beloved franchises—fans absolutely celebrated the company because it thoroughly delivered and did everything it needed to do to move those franchises forward in a positive and meaningful way that also fully satisfied all the desires of the fans. In some ways it just totally and utterly blew them away. The same thing happened when Nintendo delivered sequels like Super Mario 64, Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, F-Zero X and Star Fox 64—the fans cheered Nintendo's name from the rafters.
When Nintendo chucks out half-*ssed spin of crap, like 'Animal Crossing Board Game', 'Metroid Football' and 'Zelda Totems', or a clearly lazy and hastily put together effort like 'Star Fox 64.5 plus clunky gimmick', it's not the fans who are in the wrong for being disappointed or even enraged—it's Nintendo. Nintendo knows it; many of the fans know it; and even some of the 'defenders' know it.
@mordo887 oooh okay. understandable. Sorry for getting hostile, myself.
@tsukipon
how to make the next F-Zero great, all story mode, less of everything else. bam! multiplayer no balance and can't compete with mariokart. grand prix mode is fun, keep it the same. make story mode longer and add more customization to your vehicle, maybe make different character centric story modes. give me my check nintendo!
federation force is a spin-off, that's it. it's not the same experience at all. metroid prime was about atmosphere, this is just a frantic team shooter. not at all what fans wanted with a prime game. it may be fun, but that'd just make it an entertaining slap to the face.
yes, that's the main reason why people buy PS4 and Xbone over wiiU, hope they have fun with their generic mediocre as risk free as possible fps's. that's why those two consoles are supporting the bejesus out of indie games.
so, for those who do get the wiiU, why are they getting it? obviously not for the stunning high end graphics!
Are there actually people defending the garbage that Nintendo farted out during its e3 digital event?!
You must feel so dirty.......cheap right now.....
@Koopa-King
the board game itself is the game. it's a game of chance and choices. mario party involves games within a game within a dream within a taco bell.
@khaosklub If that is what you call gameplay then I should aspect you to pay for happy meal toys as they have the same level of "Gameplay"
Sure, the games revealed weren't AAA blockbusters, but they look like a lot of fun. They're also early in development - look at SM3DW from E3 2013, then look at the final game.
Whenever I look at the gameplay of Federation Force I see prime...It just looks like a prime game to me. Wonder why..
@Kirk couldn't agree more!
@Sakura
yeah, I read that comment, and you just don't see the appeal in this game for others, that's fine. I don't see much either, but apparently it does.
you don't want nintendo to go in this direction, vote with your wallet. your ire with this spin-off is simply because you don't approve of this type of game, which is unrelated to it being a spin-off.
"I disagree that the hate for spin-offs is always engendered by wanting more main series entries."
this statement that you started with seems to suggest that you're describing a reason for hating spin-offs, rather than just the game in general.
you're dislike of this game has nothing to do with it being a spin-off, but the hate for a spin-offs abstractly, is because of it's deviation from the formula.
also, doing my research? should I scour this thread for any and all comments from someone who responds to me? sounds ludicrous to me! though I had read that comment before anyway.
@Koopa-King
you PLAY the lottery, don't you?
@Koopa-King
probably because the HUD and graphics are straight out of prime games... and you shoot thing. there was more to prime than strafing, jumping and shooting things. but yeah, I mean, everything there looks out of prime.
@khaosklub I'm sorry what does this have to do with amiibo festival?
@khaosklub that's quite foolish reasoning. It's easy to say anything. You aren't a game developer. You aren't designing anything, you're just saying random things that you think would be great but would they be? Who knows.
I didn't say that those Metroid games weren't a spin-off. It is clearly a different game. I don't think Nintendo had any intentions of telling you otherwise. If you find it a slap to the face, that's you. I thought the same thing about Windwaker. I actually still don't like it, but it's not that bad. However, the game is well loved. This new Metroid game might be too.
People get the Wii U because they love Nintendo games/exclusive titles. That's really it. It's the diehard Nintendo fans that are probably the only reason the company is still afloat. They aren't getting new customers like that. Nintendo fans are stil concerned with graphics, but they don't have any alternative to play smash. If SSB came out for PS4, I doubt people would have bought a Wii U to play it.
You know I think im the ONLY person who is ok with Next Level Games expanding on the combat of Metroid. Its an original idea for the series and something I perosnally am looking forward to.
There's nothing wrong with a spin off title as long as it's good. The problem is when the spin off title is in a series that has been dormant for a long time
What if you bought a Nespresso machine because you loved the way their espressos tasted. But after a while they cut half the ingredients back so it didn't taste as good and no other pods would fit in the damn machine?
@Mona-Reggie I think the main problem with that is the fans are angry at Next Level Games BECAUSE the series is dormant. Its not their fault and they shouldnt be put into fire because of it. They make games...not their fault if the game they make is of a dormant franchise. They arent the ones making it dormant!
@tsukipon
true enough, but trying to add levity.
most prime fans see it as a slap in the face. windwaker was 2 years after majora's mask, and there were more traditional Zelda games on gameboy. it's not like you were without options in Zelda at the time. that and it was just the aesthetic that was different. everything else was Zelda.
it'd be like not making any zelda games for 8 years and announcing hyrule warriors. Zelda fans would be livid!
yeah, they like the fun exclusives games, but still want graphics, but they'll get the games anyway because there are no alternatives. they'll buy SD metroid.
@Koopa-King
making a choice and the rest is up to chance. it's like playing the lottery a lot of times.
@khaosklub
I meant by not doing any research that you seemed to think AC:AF is a party game when it in fact does not have party games, just single-player minigames. If it had party games, that would at least be something. Also, you have given no reason for rebutting my assertion that it is a poor game by pointing out any possible qualities. Instead, you have gone straight for the personal attack side of argument and simply said "how do you know if you haven't tried it..." as if I am not capable of coming to an informed decision with the means at my disposal mainly the Treehouse footage and E3 interviews. You haven't given anything to counter my arguments except by vague dismissal, whereas I very clearly have pointed out that your statement about spin-off hate was over-generalised and, therefore, not entirely accurate.
@khaosklub
The lottery shouldnt be a comparison for a VIDEO GAME. Thats like saying Cooking Mama and McDonalds are the same because they have food!
@Koopa-King
Personally federation force looks really bland and devoid of charm. Next Level is supposed to be really good at personality
I hate the character designs. They look like babies
@khaosklub But you don't know if this Metroid game is going to be like that just like people didn't think Windwaker was going to be like traditional Zelda.
And Hyrule Warriors isn't even done by Nintendo. I also think Hyrule Warriors is really fun and I enjoy it, so I don't think I'd have been pissed. Not enough to hate on the game when I knew next to nothing about it.
Considering on how they don't even want to give Federation Force a try, I don't think they'd buy some cheaply made 2D Metroid game either.
@Mona-Reggie I dont mind the artstyle too much. Sure its strange but it was probably done to make the characters stand out more as they are so...abstract. Other than that the enemies designs and the locations look very much like a metroid game though. Maybe thats just me..
There has been enough of a time gap between the last Animal Crossing and (ESPECIALLY) Metroid games to warrant another full installment for each. But this year, we got some spin-offs. What I'm saying is that in the world of gaming, putting the spin-offs before the AAA titles = putting the cart before the horse. Yes, I think some of the games will be fun, I'm just disappointed to see that some franchises that had potential for blockbuster sequels are being pushed further into the future.
@Sakura
actually, I was just wondering how you knew it was a bad game, 'cause I honestly know nothing about it, not very interested as I pointed out. you said you watched footage, so you know something about it. wait, so it has single player mini games? doesn't sound all that bad then.
But I never said all spin-offs are hated because they deviate from the formula, I'm referring to the hate discussed in this article in particular, particularly for federation force. and I'd say amiibo festival as well, the hate here towards spin-offs abstractly is because the fans want another game in the main series, and were given spin-offs.
you dislike amiibo festival for reasons that have nothing to do with it being a spin off. I'm not trying to counter your assertion that it's a bad game, because that doesn't even seem to be the point of anything.
@Koopa-King
well, if you work at mcDonalds, I suppose it is
I mostly agree to this. Change is great, but too much change is unnecessary. This year's E3 showed how to alienate, not to appreciate. Nintendo wanting to reel in new players is okay, but bending and twisting clearly defined concepts beyond recognition just to tailor it towards a completely separate audience is an act of disrespect.
Nintendo has almost everything covered by now, and surely enough, every IP can cover a certain range of genres without contradicting its own identity.
However, Nintendo doesn't seem to see it like that anymore, since we're seeing some rather drastical changes to strong IP's that make absolutely no sense, with results that easily could've been achieved by other IP's without having to break the base. But Nintendo ignores that, and instead decides to abandon a loyal fanbase to cash in on a different, much less stable one. That's disrespect to a very high degree, and I see absolutely no reason that could justify it.
The thing is, whenever I hear "Nintendo fans are too demanding", I get instinctively annoyed. It's one serious load of bull used against pretty much every complaint against an upcoming game, and is a very cheap way of undermining legitimate complaints, especially now that the E3 was such a major letdown.
@tsukipon
it's a four player game. how can it be like metroid prime? it already proves it won't be because you're not alone in the world with only yourself to rely on. windwaker never showed anything contrary to the zelda formula. boat = horse.
yeah, but Zelda fans would still be pissed that the next game after 8 years isn't at all a legitimate zelda game. may be fun, but people would be pissed!
I don't plan on giving federation force, and I'd buy a low budget 2D metroid game. they couldn't take my money fast enough. I'm hoping axiom verge comes to wiiU, not as good as metroid, but will keep my appetite satiated for a while.
@Mona-Reggie I agree, it really does look like a kids game. The characters look like Fisher Price toys..
They really have chosen the wrong franchise for this game... Metroid has always worked best when it has been about isolation, with a tense atmosphere almost like the film Alien.
If they had Luigi, Mario and Toad, teaming up, running around with E Gadd equipment, taking down similar foes, ghosts monsters etc I bet there would be a positive fan buzz for exactly the same game!
I wonder if it started out as a Metroid title or if they slapped it on at some point in the hope it may increase sales?
@Mk_II And it goes to no surprise that games like Tomodachi Life are outselling a number of Nintendo's established "big series".
I take what most whining fans to what fans claim to be what people want most with a grain of salt because most of Nintendo's biggest successes have been around re-imagining series, brand new ideas and control methods in new IP or spin-offs. Giving fans "exactly what they want" has only ever lead to the stagnation of their series, they've never increased sales by going "by the book".
These sort of spin-offs are good for the main series, Mario and LoZ get made so often because they're such strong series that their spin-offs do really well. If a Spin-off is selling extremely well it's no surprise Nintendo will have even more confidence that the main series will continue to sell well and they continue to make them.
Metroid fans trying to go out of their way to sabotage a spin-offs chances of success just because it's not the game they want is probably the stupidest thing I've seen and won't get you a new main series Metroid game any faster. If Federation Force is a good game and sells really well you can bet Nintendo will be prioritising a main series entry as soon as they can to capitalise on it.
This is the Twilight Zone.
@Kaze_Memaryu That's capitalism for you...companies now think that they know what's best for their fans and if their fans don't like it then the fans are somehow at fault. I miss the days where businesses actually cared about keeping their fans happy.
I have no doubt next level will make a good game, I just don't think it's a game that will earn the Metroid prime title
@khaosklub I didn't say it was going to be like Metroid Prime, so stop saying that already. The point I was making was that you can't assume it will be bad because it is a spin-off. Do not akin the boat to the horse. The horse moved fast and actually got to places unlike traversing the gosh darn sea for 50 years. The thing was, you know this NOW but THEN people didn't know what this game was going to be like and were angry for various reasons, although most of those people are now diehard WW fans.
No one would have been that upset because it wasn't a Nintendo game, it wasn't developed by Nintendo, and is meant to NOT play like a Zelda game.
You might be okay with this, but like I said, no matter what Nintendo would have done, if it wasn't the AAA blockbuster, you all would still be complaining.
In many cases Nintendo fans are the reason that the company is where it is right now with the Wii U.
I clearly remember long before the Wii U was launched fans on forums saying they don't want a powerful console (another way put it is "We don't care about graphics"). They didn't care about game chat or online gameplay in most games.
Nintendo obviously read these forums for even now they are following these "request" with StarFox, a game with basic graphics and no online.
Iwata made a very interesting and thought provoking statement when he said with NX they are "starting from zero again". I really hope he means that.
Nintendo's aim should not be keeping the few million Wii U fans, they cannot maintain a home console with such small numbers - I say it is probably best to lose most of them - but gaining tens of millions more new ones with the NX. Yes, start from a relative zero.
Nintendo has the resources to make X number of large scale games. They have little mainstream 3rd party support currently so they are trying a combo of bigger and smaller titles to give their owners additional games to play. They have been somewhat active in getting large scale 3rd party exclusives and if reports are to be believed then they have tried even more that we don't know about and some that just never went anywhere. Should they have showed up to E3 with 1 or 2 3rd party exclusives to help them out? Probably would have helped balance the presentation out.
I think Nintendo needs to consider spending a little of the War Chest to flesh out the releases for 3DS/Wii U for 2016/17/18 moving into NX.
Ultimately there are more games coming out the rest of 15 then the last couple years but E3 didnt have any future teasers thus the "masses" are up in arms because games for 2017/18 weren't teased
Upon reading the headline, the first reaction in my head was: Because most of the fans are dumb.
But of course that's unfair and not a qualified argument.
But the fact is, I don't understand all those Nintendo fans (I'm one myself) who always just want to get more of the same old stuff.
I mean, sure, I'd love to play Mario Galaxy 3, because the mechanics of that game still haven't worn themselves out for me.
So when Mario 3D World came out, I was disappointed at first. And (after trying it several times) it's still not for me. But after reading more about it, especially the view of the developers in "Iwata Asks"; I completely understood what their goal was. So now I'm totally fine with that game.
I seems like some people (not only among Nintendo fans) aren't able to adapt to new things, a characteristic that indeed was once linked with limited intelligence in a study. But that's not my point.
Why did the core Nintendo fans rebel against the Wiimote so much at the beginning? There are still some hardcore fans who don't like playing Skyward Sword with motion controls. I don't get it! It not only adds so much more immersion to that game, it's also so much fun! And it adds a whole new dimension of difficulty that doesn't stem from an allegedly imprecise Wiimotes. I mean things like the last fight against Ghirahim where he anticipates your Wiimote movement and you can only beat him by making sudden, unexpected moves. That's revolutionary!
Why were so many people critizising Star Fox Zero after they saw the dualscreen setup and how it works? To me that setup is ingenius and should be seen as a killer-feature! Of course, I was always someone who wanted to try out the all new things, I used smartphones already 13 years ago when I was still at school, I used a multimonitor setup on PC when it wasn't common outside of IT-jobs, art/design and music production. I always welcomed new technologies and methods and when I read about the new Star Fox a year ago, I KNEW it would be awesome to have the cockpit on the pad and the cinematic view on the big screen, and being able to aim independently with the Gamepad was something I was hoping for. Now they game turns out to be exactly (well okay, I could've done without the rail sections, to be honest, because that's outdated) as I imagined.
Nintendo always surprised us with these new ideas and if they had stopped innovating, I'm not sure they would even still exist (although it seems like Big N has a lot of money stacked up from their previous successes, so no worries at all about them going extinct). But luckily, it seems like the people at Nintendo are still more interested in innovating and delivering great gameplay experiences than making tons of money. Otherwise they would've made completely different (read: riskless and cowardly) business choices.
My point is: Try to be more open to new approaches. Try to be more imaginative. Don't be so shortsighted, but give the new technology time. Most important, give your brain some time to build the neuronal links that enable you to get better at using motion controls, a dual-screen setup or whatever. Trust Miyamoto and all the other Legends (or soon-to-be-Legends) developing for Nintendo, because until now they always delivered.
And if you are really that reactive and retro-thinking, go play an emulator and never mind new Nintendo releases, because they could anger you with their innovation!
I love Nintendo Life but these articles on this matter are getting old.
When it comes to Animal Crossing.... the heavy promotion of home decoration in New Leaf almost turned me off entirely, as it made it seem the entire game was about that. Thankfully, in the final game it was only one piece to the overall puzzle. Unfortunately, Happy Home Designer has taken just that one aspect of New Leaf and turned it into an entire game, abandoning most of what made New Leaf so enjoyable.
It seems like Nintendo is increasingly interested in relying on gimmicks, and applying those gimmicks to existing properties. Miyamoto, etc, don't seem to care about the worlds of Metroid or Zelda. They just focus on gameplay gimmicks. Then, when they lose interest in one gimmick, it's on to the next. It's like how Nintendo abandoned motion control in favor of the super gimmicky "asymmetric gameplay" of the Wii U. It's like there's a cycle of discovery, obsession, boredom and abandonment within Nintendo.
@tsukipon
And I'm saying that even if it is good, it's not a prime game.
People judged windwaker on graphics alone.
The fact that it isn't even a nintendo game would piss people off more, at nintendo at least.
I said people would complain. I wouldn't, but most would. They'd still buy and play it, and enjoy it. I'm not buying or playing fed force
@Hotfusion That's a harsh pill to swallow, but there is some truth in what you said.
I've been on the fence with Nintendo since this generation began. The next system will be the first time I'm not a day one adopter of a Nintendo console.
I'm just wondering what audience they plan on going after with their next console. The core gamer? Casual gamer's? I agree that the current fan base isn't large enough to support the company long term, but who else is going to line up at best buy six hours before NX releases?
@khaosklub you keep repeating things that are irrelevant. Spin-off =/=main series game. Already said and done. Move on.
People did not judge windwaker on graphics alone. Back then, the internet wasn't a big thing but my friends and I were mostly like "what with the boat?" doesn't feel very zelda. We didn't like the windwaker itself, and of course the graphics were an issue too bc it was kinda like "why?" right after OoT and MM.
You are assuming people would buy it when even you wouldn't try Federation Force. You keep putting faith in the fanbase that I don't think they deserve.
@shani condescending much?
Innovation isn't the issue here, that's just what Nintendo are spinning it as.
@shani
This aricle-length comment is tone deaf and condescending. It's fine that you're cool with this batch of games, but that doesn't make anybody stupid for being unsatisfied with it. Nobody is asking for "more of the same stuff." We are not "unable to adapt to new things" because of our "limited intelligence." Those things may noy be your point but you still just let them hang there condescendingly. It's one thing to like the innovative and sometimes divisive things nintendo has done in the past, but make no mistake, there is nothing innovative about polluting beloved franchises with irrelevant spin offs and neglecting the desires and expectations of their most loyal fans. You're entitled to your opinion, but that's no excuse to shrug off those who disagree with you as unintelligent.
@Goomba77 Not really, it's just how it always felt to me. I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm just offering my view on this issue.
I think innovation has a great role in this, because many times when Nintendo transforms (as MitchVogel put it) its IP's, it's because of some new idea or technology. I'm not saying every Nintendo game is innovative or that every transformation happens due to innovation.
I'm just saying: Most of the times when the fanbase is boiling it's because of some innovation that changed how the games of a specific Nintendo IP work, look and feel.
Just take LoZ as an example: Before 1997, it was a pure 2D title, but then OoT came around and changed everything! And still there are people who prefer the 2D Zelda games. Why? I don't know. To me every Zelda title before OoT is uninteresting. I tried playing them, but it's just boring. Minish Cap (which came later and was developed by Capcom) actually caught me for a little while, but then I lost interest again.
And this comment section reminded me why I left Nintendo Life for a bit. Maybe things will have cooled off by mid-July.
Effin BS.. Look.. I love Nintendo too but most of you guys have got to stop pretending that all is good. They're getting their ass handed to them sales wise and its a damn shame because games like 3D World, DKTP, Smash, heck majority of their exclusives deserve to be played!
The system should NEVER have been underpowered compared to the competition.. And as much as I love being able to play in bed without the television the Gamepad was an abysmal failure.. It means they might never be able to drive the price down.. They should've just used updated Wii Remotes and probably allowed folks to link their 3ds systems as extra controllers..
I'm just getting tired of waiting for Nintendo to do what's right.. The Wii was awesome but did it really have to be underpowered compared to the Xbox 360? Now they're stuck.. Wii U is underpowered compared to the PS4 / XB1.. The NX HAS TO BE ON PAR WITH THE EVENTUAL PS5 / XB2.. Otherwise they'll lose whatever 3rd party gains they may acquire early on against the PS4 / XB1
If they'd dropped the whole Metroid thing and just called the 3DS co-op shooter "Federation Force" , it would have garnered some respect from gamers as a fresh IP. But instead Nintendo have inflamed the Metroid Fanbase - it feels tacky because Metroid is a specific brand associated with alienation, strong female leadership and eeriness.
What was ultimately missing was a sense of blockbuster. A lot of the games look like mobile experiments, thin and flippant ideas. I guess if Zelda had not been delayed or at the very least shown, it would have been more satisfying because that will be a blockbuster, which is something the Wii u struggles to get more than 2 of in a given year.
@shani Is it really fair to say games like 3D World are innovative though? It basically just recycles what 3D Land did (which in turn, was just the 2D game mechanics adapted into 3D) and tosses in a powerup of the day and a few new level gimmicks. Whereas games like Sunshine and Galaxy would take an entirely new theme and add some unique gameplay mechanics to it while still keeping the core experience the same. The problem with 3D World isn't that fans are too closed minded to try a different game, it's that Nintendo has become too closed minded to the point where they've retreated back towards traditional gameplay.
Anyway, the article gave my thoughts exactly. I don't want to see them make a lateral move with extraneous spinoffs they're substituting for a core experience (or at least not without getting those core experiences first), I want to see the gameplay move forward with new gameplay mechanics added to the core experience through new hardware and unique themes. The Sunshine/Galaxy approach is the ideal strategy to making new games and it's disappointing that they've shied away from that route.
@tsukipon
Well, I don't like the game for the sailing either, aside from that, it's like all the other zelda games.
Considering link's awakening started with link on a boat, and rafts have been prominant in the series, feels pretty zelda to me, even though I didn't like the actual implementation.
And in terms of the fanbase, I'm part of the mega man fanebase, and everyone complained about mega man 9. No sliding, why 8 bit, why no charge shot, it's the same as the old games, we want something new, this is lazy, there should be anime in it, etc. Yet I have yet to meet a member of the fanbase who does not own it. I own 2 copies myself, and would buy another on 3ds if they'd give it to me. In the mega man fanbase, the only games that seem to fail, are the one's with better graphic, because they all deviate from the formula.
And the mega man fanbase is no better than any other fanbase.
And look at sonic fans, they buy every main series game!
You underestimate the fanbase's dedication. Sure, they'll grumble, but they'll still support it. Federation does not have the prime following's support. While it may develop it's own following, the prime fanbase won't accept it.
@YoshiTails at this point who knows lol.. I'm pretty pissed at Starfox / Blast Ballz. Nintendo needs to scour these forums, NeoGaf and ask 3rd party developers and publishers, studios that specialise in making stellar engines and game tech what kinda system they should build.
They need to build relationships and forge real meaningful partnerships.. ENSURE STEADY SUPPLY OF QUALITY RELEASES - NOT GET BONED BY AAA GAMES MISSING THEIR SYSTEM.
@shani why? Just because 2d Zelda games don't have the same graphical detail of their 3d counterparts doesn't make them any less of a game. At the end of the day all that matters is that it's a fun game. Mario 3 isn't Mario Galaxy, but that doesn't mean the game is no longer enjoyable for people because its (old) or that it doesn't have the benefit of being built on current hardware.
@DrDingus I thought I made it clear that I wasn't trying to denounce anyone as stupid. That was just my first, emotional reaction.
But the thing I brought up about being unable to adapt to new things was actually based on studies I read about, I quickly googled and found this, but I would have to take more time to find what I read exactly a few years ago:
http://billmoyers.com/2014/07/17/scientists-are-beginning-to-figure-out-why-conservatives-are…-conservative/
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/09/07/your-brain-on-politics-the-cognitive-neuroscience-of-liberals-and-conservatives/
But I know two articles won't change anyone's mind.
And I didn't call anyone unintelligent. In fact, I didn't even say that it would have anything to do with whether someone agrees or disagrees with me. I just want people to be more open-minded. Because that statement of yours is anything but open-minded:
"there is nothing innovative about polluting beloved franchises with irrelevant spin offs and neglecting the desires and expectations of their most loyal fans."
First of all, you call it "polluting", that's a very emotional choice of words and anything but factual. Just because you feel like something is getting "polluted", it doesn't mean that's actually what's happening. I'm guessing you're referring to the new Metroid and Zelda multiplayer games? I don't get why everyone is so mad about it. Have you ever thought that there might be thousands of kids that would like to play exactly that type of game together? Just because you grew up with a different kind of Metroid or Zelda, it doesn't mean the Zeitgeist can't change and that this can also change the games. In fact, you calling this change of the game formula (and it's not like we're talking about a main Metroid or Zelda game) a "pollution" completely shows that you want "more of the same stuff". While it's actually just an adjustment or maybe even just an experiment, you feel disgusted by it because it changes the game on a very basic level.
But why can't there be different kinds of Metroid and Zelda games? Why do you have to hate those new games?
I mean, they're not made for me, too, but I don't mind. I'm sure there are thousands of other people who will enjoy those two. But just because I don't, it doesn't mean they pollute anything. The "pollution" you're talking about is just taking place in your head. Go tell a ten year old who never played Metroid or Zelda that those new games "pollute" the franchise and they won't know what you're talking about. So you should remind yourself that it all comes down to the perspective. And taking in a foreign perspective is always helpful and healthy.
Other than buying a Wii for my wife I haven't purchased a Nintendo system since the SNES. I bought the Wii U specifically for Xenoblade Chronicles X because my favorite Playstation game was Xenogears. I thought the first-party software was always a fan service that the other console producers never give their fans with as much gusto as Nintendo does. Only my Nintendo friends want to play Animal Crossing. I know a lot of Zelda fans that moved on to Skyrim (although I think Skyrim is garbage). I am not a Zelda fan. I am not an Animal Crossing fan. I am a game design fan and Nintendo has the best game design of any development team, first party or otherwise, in the industry hands down. The Wii U is on the way out, but the best games are about to come with Devil's Third, Zelda (not NX title because the NX is not going to be a traditional console), Xenoblade, and the amazing Fatal Frame that is coming. Regarding E3 it was a hype-a-thon that was the worst E3 that I have ever witnessed. There was less content, less innovative games, and honestly I feel like the console companies are patronizing fans at this point. It still blows my mind that people were excited that Playstation announced the opportunity for fans to finance something that they will profit from. If anyone pays any attention to the mobile games industry they had an amazing E3. If I were to bet anything, it is that the NX is going to be a platform built around ARM architecture that caters to the burgeoning cell phone development market. Those developers are doing amazing things and that is the development talent that Nintendo needs to please fans.
@shani
Yeah, you may like 3D zelda, and many old fans may too, but it's a different series. Imagine if the series evolved the other way around. You wouldn't be too happy.
Capcom got it right with mega man in that when they wanted to drastically change it, they made a new series. Classic, X, zero, ZX, and legends are all sorta mega man, but they all play drastically different.
Fans want innovation, but not in an established series. They want the series they like to stay the same. Like how many earthbound fans would probably be pissed if the next games were puzzle platformer. Some may enjoy it, but it would have been better to create a new IP than to drastically alter an established one.
3d zelda isn't better than top down zelda, just different. Before OoT came out, the attachment of the name Zelda to a game was a promise to the fans. Which OoT broke, though many fans like the new series anyway.
@MrYuzhai Spot on.
@Superryanworld Thanks, that's exactly my point!
Just because I don't like the old LoZ titles or Mario 3D World, it doesn't mean that those are bad games. There can be millions out there enjoying them and that's totally fine. No need for me to call those games names.
Nintendo is the biggest innovator in the industry. But that's not to say everything is going to be perfect.
When Thomas Edison invented the lightbulb, he had a lot of failed attempts too. But no one ever remembers those, just his successes. Innovation never comes free. It always comes with misfires and failed attempts. We cannot get innovative games and hardware from Nintendo without getting a dud every once in a while too.
With that being said, not every game has to "innovate". Knocking a game for not innovating is nonsensical. Sometimes games innovate, sometimes they refine and sometimes they just provide more of something great that everyone loves. The question should not be "does this game innovate?", the real question should be "is this game fun?". Because so what if it innovates if the game isn't any fun? And who cares if it doesn't innovate if the game is really fun? Exactly. innovation takes a back seat to the all important FUN.
Now, there is no doubt that some Nintendo games are missing the mark. But, there has been an extremely high volume of one-minded criticism based on emotional ties rather than actual fair and balanced assessment. We get it. Everyone wants a proper Metroid game. I'm disappointed too. But that's over with. It's not happening. So let's give Federation Force the fair shake it deserves. It has an excellent developer behind it and it does look fun. Star Fox, another game highly demanded. Games that use the gamepad in meaningful ways- again, highly demanded. Star Fox Zero scratches both those itches- let's support it and at the very least give it a fair chance.
@MrYuzhai
"Most of you guys have got to stop pretending that all is good"
What exactly do you want to see people do? Complain on every single article about Nintendo, every single day, week, month, etc for the duration of this generation? Nothing is ever ALL good, but what do you want people to do about it? Are we not here to just have fun with these games and have a good time? Isn't that what videogames is all about? Just having fun? So why would people waste their time getting bent out of shape because Nintendo didn't meet their sales quotas? I'm just saying- I hear this a lot from people saying "people stop pretending everything is ok". Well, everything IS ok- at least from where I'm sitting anyways Everything might not be okay with Nintendo but that's not my problem. I just play the games man.
And I think that's the mindset of a lot of people on this site- they don't particularly care how much the Wii U is selling, or this negative or that negative... They just like to play video games and Nintendo makes quite a few games they enjoy playing. And they like to come online and talk to others who played those games and share in those experiences.
And, I think it would do you well to look back at the history of third-party multiplat sales numbers on Nintendo platforms. The reason those games aren't on Nintendo isn't because of power- the Wii U was right on par with PS3/360 yet hasn't got any of those games they've gotten over the last two years. The reason is, nobody buys those games on Nintendo. The sales numbers don't lie. Most AAA multiplats on Wii U are LUCKY to sell 100,000 units. And even back on the Wii, even with over 100 million users, games like Call of Duty (which at the time was the most popular franchise in the world) struggled to even top 2 million sales. Going back to the GameCube, sales were always far less then on rival platforms, even than Xbox which had similar install base.
The Fanbase just isn't interested in those games. You can soup the NX up with nitro boosters and rocket CPU, to the point where AAA multiplats look stunning and run smooth as butter on NX. It still doesn't change the fact that those games are going to rot on store shelves collecting dust because nobody is interested in buying them. I wish this wasn't the case- I DO truly wish the fanbase would have bought more AAA games when they were testing the waters in 2013 to send a message that we will buy enough copies to make it worth their while. But it just didn't happen. 2013 was the year that forever solidified a lack of AAA on Nintendo consoles. Even paid exclusives like Bayonetta 2! A game which is easily the highest rated game on the Wii U, and one of the highest rated of all time period, even IT hasn't sold but 600k. Sometimes you just have to wake up and whiff reality. This is not a fan base that supports much else other than 1st party. Even games like Rayman Legends that could easily be mistaken for a Nintendo game- both aesthetically and quality-wise, sold around 300k. Frankly, it's embarrassing.
@shani well said!
@shani
Telling people why they think what they think and that they are stupid isn't likely to go down all that well. We clearly have opposing views and your explanation of why I hold my view is way off.
I'm all for innovation and new technology, but I see nothing innovative in the near future from Nintendo. Just wafer thin ideas and a cobbled on motion/offscreen than may or may not work (not my issue).
I had Shoot-em-up Construction Kit waaaay back on the C64 so I don't even see Mario Maker as anything all that ground breaking.
I know what you mean about Zelda though, anything before SNES era and I struggle to get into it now. Maybe that's because I didn't play those games when they were new?
@Bolt_Strike No, Mario 3D World is not innovative at all in my opinion. They basically took Mario Bros and made it 2,5D. And you can see that the game was born on a limited platform like the 3DS, just look how small the levels are. No comparison to Mario64 and Galaxy. That's why I don't like Mario 3D World. But it's legitimate to make a Mario game that's 3D, but at the same time is fun for people who never liked Mario 3D games. Because - and I didn't know this until last year - there are people (like one of my friends) who feel overwhelmed by classic Mario 3D titles. They don't know how to handle that big world, instead they prefer the classic 2D levels where you just go forward and can't get lost. Mario 3D World is made for those people (like my buddy), now they can play Mario in 3D without being overwhelmed, because the levels are pretty much one-directional and bordered.
And that's what I HATE about Mario 3D World, because I always loved the big open worlds of M64 and MG. Additionally, 3D World also messed with the different jump abilities of Mario for the sake of having different characters with different abilities. E.g. they killed the triple jump and made Mario's long jump much shorter than in M64/MG, that completely destroyed the game for me. Probably the same way a four-player spin-off of Metroid and Zelda destroys those franchise for you. But luckily, there are different games inside of every franchise.
The thing is: As much as I detest Mario 3D World personally, I totally get what it does to other players that are different than me. So that legitimates developing such a game, although it completely disappointed me as a classic Mario 3D fan.
@Goomba77 I guess so, because my first Zelda game was OoT. So it would absolutely make sense.
It's no problem to have opposing views, that's what makes things interesting. But maybe you are right with paragraph, I guess that never goes down all that well. But just to be clear: I didn't want to offend anyone, if it came off like that.
Maybe I should've started my first post differently. I didn't want this to be about intelligence or something (although I brought it up, but more as some kind of fun fact). My main point wasn't even innovation, although I think this is a key point.
Essentially, my point was/is: Change is good. At least, until proven otherwise. But usually, people face change with concern and distrust. I would prefer if people would scream "Yay" to every change, let the change sink in, give it time and give it a fair chance. If after some while it proves to be wrong, you still can complain about it.
But my wish (not only for gamers, but for the whole world) would really be to reverse the reactions on change. Instead of negativity at the beginning and enthousiasm at the end, I'd like for all people to be enthousiastic at the beginning.
@khaosklub the boat in Link's Awakening has nothing to do with anything because you physically don't drive and the rafts are brief. Don't grasp at straws.
Also, this isn't about Megaman, this is about Metroid. The fact is that they gave a spin-off. It is a spin-off. It can be a fun spin-off and there are probably metroid fans that will like it. I don't underestimate the fanbase, people are complaining because they game isn't what they wanted. Nothing more. They have no idea what it is like, how it plays, and isn't even going to try it. What's there to have faith in?
@JaxonH A very uplifting read.
@Superryanworld
Sorry didn't realize I had written half a book there lol...
The problem is Nintendo is too obsessed with being innovative through gimmicks. Add something completely new - like motion controls (Wii) or a touch screen (DS and Wii U) and then new software can't help but NOT be innovative from its predecessors. So they take all this new input and 'reinvent' franchises, the way Miyamoto has with Star Fox.
The NX could have the same input as the PS4 and XBO in every way; four face buttons, dual analog sticks, d-pad, two shoulder buttons, and two ANALOG triggers (looks angrily at Wii U), and Nintendo could still innovate. People want to see Nintendo innovate through refining the gameplay of the software. One of the only titles that have done that recently is SM3DW. Usually Nintendo just phones it in, like the New Super Mario series and keeps their A-game for stuff like Star Fox, which isn't necessarily what people want.
@JaxonH You made some good points. We all got into this hobby because it's fun. I think some people can loose sight of that. I'm certainly guilty of it from time to time.
@khaosklub Yeah, I probably wouldn't. Although switching from 2D to 3D really is hard to imagine. ^^
But you wrote something that touches my main criticism:
"Fans want innovation, but not in an established series. They want the series they like to stay the same."
That's exactly what I don't understand. To me, change is first and foremost a good thing. So why shouldn't I want a good thing for my favourite game series?
@JaxonH As you can probably imagine by seeing what I had written, I like reading postings that are long and where I got the feeling that someone has a little bit more to say. So you are welcome to write more half books.
Thanks for reminding us all that at the end, it's all about fun. I think it's fair to say that everything Nintendo does is about having fun and we should never forget that.
As a matter of fact, you put it really nicely, I completely second you on this:
"Now, there is no doubt that some Nintendo games are missing the mark. But, there has been an extremely high volume of one-minded criticism based on emotional ties rather than actual fair and balanced assessment. We get it. Everyone wants a proper Metroid game. I'm disappointed too. But that's over with. It's not happening. So let's give Federation Force the fair shake it deserves. It has an excellent developer behind it and it does look fun. Star Fox, another game highly demanded. Games that use the gamepad in meaningful ways- again, highly demanded. Star Fox Zero scratches both those itches- let's support it and at the very least give it a fair chance."
@Sakura This certainly feels like the Twilight Zone reading some of the bizarre mental gymnastics being used here to defend Nintendo releasing what are ultimately cheap, low risk spinoffs to milk fans of existing IP and fill up the schedule without putting the money and time into mainline entries. Couple that with the accusatory and butthurt comments about fans never wanting change and being "ungrateful" for whatever crap the company pulls out of it's *** and stick a price tag on ... and you have entered the fanboy zone!
@KillScottKill That's true, but don't you agree that in this case of Starfox, it totally makes sense to use the new possibilities the console "forces" on the game? For me it does.
And I wouldn't call those improvements gimmicks. "Gimmick" always sounds like a minor thing to me, something that's not that important and looses its charm rapidly.
The Wiimote is not a gimmick, just as the control stick of the N64 was not a gimmick. It was (and still is) a key feature that dramatically influenced and changed they gaming industry and the way we play!
But I think you're really wrong about something else: Nintendo doesn't always innovate through some new input methods or other "gimmicks", it also innovates "through refining the gameplay of the software", as you put it.
You want an example? Mario Galaxy. The only thing motion controls added to that game was the spinning at the end of a jump. But the main innovation of the game was the gravitational element that made a whole lot of new levels and puzzles possible. And Nintendo mixed all of that stuff with the classic formula of Mario 64. Isn't that refining enough?
@shani
Firstly I'd like to say that I actually agree with you on most of this, especially with regard to how children might see these games. I don't, however, appreciate having a whole lot of words put my mouth. I don't personally hate any of it and I'm certainly not disgusted. In fact I'm rather looking forward to Metroid FF in particular... Zelda TFH I could take or leave, but AC: Amiibo Festival is just disappointing. I do stand by the word "pollute" with all of them though. The fact is this: before these games were announced, these franchises stuck to a pretty strict pedigree. Each new entry was a logical step forward. This was true even in the transition from 2D to 3D or side scrolling to first person, etc. Despite these transitions, the core of the series tropes remained: zelda's puzzles and dungeons, metroid's scifi isolation vibe(until recently), animal crossings casual time wasting, etc. These games were hugely successful in critical terms and in sales. The new entries announced at E3 arguably deviate significantly from this pedigree. I don't think it's all bad, but it muddies the waters of what it means to be a game in their respective franchises. Multiplayer within a Metroid game is one thing, but a multiplayer-focused Metroid is, historically, just not what makes the series great. It's not BAD but it's distinctly Un-Metroid and it's certainly not what fans were hoping for. Kids will like it, sure, but that isn't the point. As for Animal Crossing, they've split it into THREE different pieces: main series, home design, and inexplicable board game. Dont you think that muddies(see:pollutes) the waters for that franchise just a bit? How many spin offs will we have to sift through before we get back to the core of these franchises? Experimentation is good, but it becomes a problem when it replaces their staples for the forseeable future.
What Nintendo is doing isn't transforming. It is called milking. Slapping their name brands on anything else just for the attention.
@DrDingus: Ok, first of all, I didn't want to put any words into your mouth. I actually hate it when someone does that to me. So apologies for that.
For the case of Metroid, it completely makes sense to me to make it multiplayer-ONLY. Because a) that's something we never had before and b) Multiplayer in a shooter? Not just as a boring extra to the singleplayer campaign? Hell yeah! Why not earlier? I mean aside from Splatoon.
I think the main difference between my view and yours is this: You say "a multiplayer-focused Metroid is, historically, just not what makes the series great." But I'm saying "Maybe a multiplayer-focused Metroid is what keeps this series being great?"
And then I have to add: I never considered any title on the 3DS as a serious representative of the equivalent franchise. That's just because to me, handheld gaming is fundamentally different from gaming at home on the big screen (and I'm saying that while the Gameboy was my very first console back in 1989 and I totally loved it!). You don't get immersed that much and the screen can't display that much. Also, the device has less computing power so either the world you play in is significantly smaller or the graphics are downgraded (which actually doesn't bother me at all). So maybe that's one of the reasons those new games don't bother me that much. But I still followed the news on them and was as always interested to see what Nintendo had developed there. Honestly, I think it was about time to make a multiplayer Zelda game. I mean aside from Hyrule Warriors (which is fine but not a typical Zelda game). But even HW or all those four Capcom Zelda games are a proof that in fact, LoZ never stuck to a strict pedigree, but rather branched out already in the past.
You know that LoZ: Four Swords already was a multiplayer-only game?
And another thing: In my opinion, if a company does the opposite of what fans were hoping for, most of the time it's doing the right thing. That's something I learned from my father, who is a musician.
I think the moment a company/artist does what the fans want or expect, it's doomed. Because then it only does so to please its customers/fans, meaning their main goal will be making more money. But on the other hand, if the company/artist does what it/he/she thinks is best, it's more likely to have success. Even they fail, at least it stayed true to themselves. But from my experience, staying true to yourself and doing what you feel the desire to do out of passion, is always the right way and eventually, automatically leads to success.
Oh and regarding Animal Crossing - and sorry if I'm being provocative, but maybe that way someone can explain to me what's so special about AC - I never seriously considered those to be "full" games. So Nintendo can do whatever they want with AC because for me they are on par with Farmville and Flappy Birds. And I'm pretty sure I'm not doing AC justice right now because it's made by Nintendo and therefore should be worth more than some crappy mobile games. But then again, I also never got what's so great about Pokemon games.
It's a conundrum, actually. Fans generally have 2 opinions on such things especially Nintendo.
On one hand, you have the fans clamoring for more remakes which is why Nintendo has been dubbed with derogatory remarks as the "rehash" empire. Remakes are low scale budget quick cash grabs in my opinion and let's just leave it at that.
On the other hand, you have fans calling for more new IP, even when Nintendo has been doing so for quite a while, the problem is when new IP are presented, people tend to ignore the new IP and just head straight to what is familiar. Splatoon got a good reception when it was presented, I just wished Eternal Darkness, Geist and Disaster: Day of Crisis received as much as well as they were interesting for their time.
And fans expect Nintendo to listen to them? Laughable.
I think it's safe to say that Nintendo's success with the Wii went to their heads. They invented a new way to play with the Wii and it was a great success. Their basic assumption was that for their next console, all they had to do was invent a new way to play, again. And so they did, with the gamepad. It just didn't click. Tablets, gyro controls and touch screens were old news. Considering that the double screen concept came from the DS, you could question how innovative the Wii U really is.
But no, fans just didn't understand the system. To some extent, that was true - thanks to laughable promotion efforts. But now we understand it, and it's still no big hit. Nintendo even admitted themselves that they didn't have the crucial "big app" game that showcased the gamepad well. Nintendo Land was supposed to do that, but honestly, nobody bought the system for Nintendo Land. To this day there still hasn't come a game that really justifies the gamepad. This one is on you, Nintendo.
They claim to know what their fans want. But somehow, a true 3D Mario or Metroid game isn't on that list. And Zelda U comes towards the end of the system's lifecycle. Nah, Nintendo's approach is part doing whatever they please, part milking amiibos, and part thinking they know everything better than their fans - not only what games they want, but also how they want to play it.
@Fazermint
You're right when you say there hasn't been one major game that really demonstrated the gamepads use (like Wii Sports) but I am of the belief that you don't need one. Well, you do if you want to be a smash commercial success, but strictly talking about enjoying fun games, I think it's the little additions and streamlining that makes the games that much more enjoyable and therefore- worth having. I'm definitely glad I got to experience a console that had a second screen on the controller. I've played a wide variety of games that used it for various purposes and it's definitely an experience I feel grateful for.
I think the Nintendo does actually understand what fans want, but I think they also understand that the fanbase is not that large. I think they do understand that fans want a true Metroid game and true Mario 3D game. But they also know the fanbase- the true fanbase, is only a few million strong. And I think they also know that with any group that size everyone has different ideas of what they want. There's a good portion of people that liked 3D world, for example. And I think they know that making video games is not always about polling the fans and making the game with majority votes. I think they also know that their reach goes far beyond just the simple fanbase. And they know games like Mario 3D World are much simpler to understand in concept and therefore have a much broader appeal to those outside of the close-knit fanbase circle.
I also think they are very much aware that fans want a proper Metroid. But I think they also know that the last time they gave us one fans rioted and brought about much bad publicity. Now, there were some legitimate complaints with that game. But the sheer volume of unwarranted vitriol spewed in response to that game was so out of control, I think they are very apprehensive to go full swing again. I think they are unwilling to risk anything other than a new Prime 4 entry, and I think they wanted to wait a few years to give the franchise a break in between. And I think by the time it came around to actually start development on the game, it was time to reassess the situation due to the dismal failure of Wii U, and the fact that the game- which would require significant resources and investment as stated by the producer, wouldn't justify the development costs.
And I also think the fans believe Nintendo should do whatever they demand. Just because a few hundred people on a website say this is what they want, they then deem that as what "everyone wants". And they believe Nintendo should basically just take orders from that small group of fans, completely disregarding the fans who want something else and completely disregarding any interest in pursuing others outside of the fanbase.
And most importantly, disregarding the fact that our favorite games of all time- we never knew we wanted them until we played them. It's not necessarily Nintendo's job to pump out sequels at the beck and call of a quarter million fans. Rather, it is their job to make games that they feel will be fun to play, bringing us new experiences that we never knew we wanted until playing it. And they are the designers so it is at their discretion whether they make a new IP, a sequel, a reboot, a spinoff, or take a well known franchise in a new direction. Like Splatoon. Like Code Name STEAM. Like Kid Icarus. Like Xenoblade. Like Fire Emblem.
They didn't become a multibillion dollar powerhouse by taking orders from a few thousand people on the Internet who think they speak for everyone. Now I'm not saying I don't want some of the same things you do, because I'm pretty sure we both want to see a new Metroid, but the difference between us is I understand there is more to it than just what we want and what they make. We are not that large of a group anymore and our purchasing power isn't exactly something to brag about right now. "Fans" have a pretty crappy history of letting great games crash and burn. Nintendo has more to think about than just this small core group of fans, which mind you, do not all want the same thing.
@JaxonH I agree with this 100%. I wish I could play a game like dark souls but with skyward sword controls. Nintendo makes new expierences, and give us a way to play the greatest games ever. I love replaying metroid games every few years, and want sequels. But Ive also wanted a multiplayer metroid game, it's not quite what I thought, but I get I will be fun. I said that hyrule warriors was the never game I never knew I needed. I've replayed link between 2 world 4 times now. I'm up to about 100 hours of hyrule warriors. It's great. Between a wii u and 3ds, nintemdo has me 90% satisfied gaming. I play PS3 dark souls still, Starcraft and Heros of storm lately on pc, and hearthstone on my iPhone. I have no reason to get a ps4. To pay to play prettier versions of last years games. Literally. And to wait years for anything good to come out. I don't want to play destiny for 1000 hours. Or battlefield, assassins, cod, gta since I already have great PS3 versions. And I'm bored with them.
I think that if Federation Force had simply been a Wii U game(and not called Federation Force and without the kiddie art style), reception for the game would have been very different. A halo-esque multiplayer experience would have been very welcome in my book.
@shani No, not provocative I've played Animal Crossing New Leaf for just under 800 hours. The appeal started with the relationship (time spent) with the characters in a quirky and yeah, charming, setting. It's about nurturing those characters while completing a long and varied series of tasks. Most of it was, frankly, grinding, while watching the TV at the same time, but it was just interesting enough to keep me engaged over the 2 and half years. Pokemon I don't really get either. It seems like an over-complicated game of rock-paper-scissor-lizard-Spock and then some, but it's about collecting all species, working out which will be weak/strong against which others and the relationship (time spent) you have while ranking up their abilites. I found the hundreds of encounters of wild pokemon got in the way of the actual game and so have never finished it. Most games are in fact about solving puzzles or completing a set of goals or even simply about becoming really good at controlling character movements. I like that Nintendo have varied games. I like their innovation. I like their focus on gameplay (which is why I have been so disappointed in Amiibo Festival - there doesn't seem to be any gameplay at all and I don't want Nintendo to take that direction). Variety is good though. I won't be getting Amiibo Festival but there are so many other top games (for the moment, at least) that it doesn't matter. Just got Affordable Space Adventures and Yoshi.
Oh, though I prefer my 3DS to the home consoles. I think that's simply because the TV gets taken over by other people, while I can use the 3DS any time with no interuptions from kids. I feel totally immersed. Depends on the games, what you're used to, comfort while playing, loads of things I expect, though I think it's the games overall that govern the quality of experience.
It really bugs me that people are telling Metroid fans to get over Federation Force and deal with it.
If there wasn't a Zelda game for 5 years, and they came out with Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland, would the Zelda fans "get over it?"
I highly doubt it.
@dMo
Nobody cared for it during the NWC when it was just called Blast Ball. Confirming it was part of a bigger mess and then slapping the Metroid name on it just added salt to the wound.
I think the big problem most have with the Digital Event is the lack of substantial announcements. Nintendo focuses so much on surprises during their directs every month that they ran out of things to show at E3. Hell if you were to count the digital event and several Directs that preceded it as part of E3, then they likely won the show again.
@Sakura: Couldn't agree with you more!
And congrats on buying ASA, it's an amazing game where playing with two co-op players really adds something to it.
I also got Yoshi yesterday.
Well I always kinda wanted to get a 3DS because of all sorts of different reasons (3D, specific games), but honestly, I fear I won't use it that much, because at home it would have to compete against PC and Wii U and I usually don't play when I'm one the way.
In many cases, fans don't even realize what their expectations are until Nintendo breaks some of their trends. Case in point: Metroid Prime: Federation Force. Most people didn't even think of asking for a Metroid game starring Samus before they knew about that game. My point is if you don't even understand your own expectations until they're broken, even you don't know what you want.
That's actually the exact opposite of why I was angry after the direct. I was surprised by how little there was that was new. Federation Force was probably the coolest thing in the direct, but they hardly showed it off. Other than that and Triforce Heroes, a more cooperative take on Four Swords, we got ANOTHER party game, a Mario Tennis that just adds Mega Mushrooms, a Star Fox that seems way too similar to StarFox 64, a bunch of previously seen games, and a Mario & Luigi crossover with Paper Mario, which seems to just blend the two games together without adding anything. Maybe they'll show what's new in future directs, but I was expecting to see it during the biggest presentation of the year.
@tsukipon Well we also get constant (For the most part) Mario Games, we do not get any main series Metroid Games and we still do not have a Wii U Animal Crossing. Honestly, the Metroid Federation Force looks amazing, but with so many people writing it off as not even noteworthy, it will not sell. Nintendo sees that it is not selling and say that Metroid is a dead series. End of Story. This is not what we want to happen!
Nintendo is rich enough to screw up so they can't lose no matter which way they go.
1. All games nowadays looks great in 3d or 2d in most cases. There is no reason to complain.
2. The games could be as goofy as ever. The point is that every 3d game looks like it's 1990's Pre-render counter part or every 3d game looks like some sorta animation. Even flash animators are looking better then most 3d games.
"Though the initial idea may have been born in Super Mario 3D World.... Nothing was taken away from the main Mario series, rather something was added."
Bingo! No one would have been disappointed about the Animal Crossing board game, if alongside it they had a real Animal Crossing Wii U game, same with Prime... It just really rubs people the wrong way when they tease animal crossings and then it is not Animal Crossing and it is just a Animal Crossing branded electronic board game.
This is why I say " Nintendo is phoning it in"
Is sad really...
@shani Mario Galaxy is nearly a decade old now. You may as well cite Sunshine or 64. It has so little to do with the present. Even since 2007, Nintendo has changed a lot with its first party titles.
The paper mario/mario & Luigi game will be fantastic and doesn't belong in the same category as the ridiculous metroid and animal crossing games.
@k8sMum said:
"Part of the problem may be that ninty knows they will be forgiven anything."
Sorry...I had to do a spit take...
People are still salty over the N64 using cartridges...People are still salty about Other M, People are still salty about Sticker Star and Star Fox Assault...
"Ninty" is rarely forgiven. Even when they make great games, the sins of the past are never truly forgiven.
This E3 was horrible. Metroid and Animal Crossing were in awful spinoffs that nobody wanted. They just didn't deliver what fans wanted, and they had a weak showing.
@Squiggle55 yep. I agree
It's one thing to be risky, but it doesn't feel like they're doing "risky" the right way.
Of course, all their fans will forgive them and buy everything they push out anyway.
Fans don't know what they want? Call of duty fans know what they want and they buy it in the millions, uncharted fans know what they want and they buy it in the millions. Clearly Nintendo fans wouldn't buy a new Metroid game every few years which was the same game with different environments. A Zelda game every few years? Same style with different dungeons? Surely there's room for these spin offs and the games we all want. Sony and Microsoft don't seem to have a problem selling their big franchises. Fans don't know what they want?
There was so little that was new. They either showed off old games or spent too much time on uninteresting ones. These spinoffs wouldn't be bad if they were accompanied by bigger titles, but they weren't. The damage control afterwards was salt in the wound . This "transformation" was from a great E3 2014, to a disastrous E3 2015.
I feel like so many of their problems stem from those damn mobile games. No mobile games would have meant no NX announcement which would have meant focus on Wii U and 3DS and not the uncertain future.
I just have to applaud everyone here. We are actually carrying out debates instead of biting each others' heads off. Hat's off to you. This is a big step since E3.
@Action 51
Salty, yes, but not unforgiven. All you need do is read comments on NL recently: there are people doing verbal contortions to justify anything Nintendo does. There have been posts blaming everything except Ninty for any problems they are having. Even one of their execs implied it was the consumer's fault for not being daring enough with purchases.
I have owned Nintendo consoles since the NES days and seen the tides go in and out re: their popularity. Yeah people complain, but in the end the vast majority forgive and to an extent, forget, with each new iteration because that will be the one that turns it all around.
@tsukipon
I never said you ride that boat, just that boats are very zelda. The implementation in ww is bad, but boats are very fitting in the zelda world. Nothing about link being on a boat is out of place.
Yes, the fans are complaining that after 10 or 8 years (depending on which metroid series one is a fan of), this is what they're given.
When you attach the name metroid prime to a game, you are making certain promises to the metroid prime fanbase. The fanbase can see that it isn't what they're getting
@mordo887
Thank you. I'm getting a few of those too. Especially Rodea, Star Fox, Xenoblade, and Mario Maker. Thats a lot of money. I wished I could get everything and have time to play it. I'm still working on some of the big Wii U hits, and have yet to journey into Tropical Freeze and Pikmin 3. I want to play the 3DS games they announced too. Federation Force and Triforce Heroes both look like fun games. Generally. People complain way too much. 2016 will bring Zelda U and the NX. We'll have many Directs. Its not the end of the world.
@shani
I could see it. Zelda changing from 3D to 2D. If 3D didn't sell well, they might go 2D for a lower budget game.
And by that quote, I'll elaborate. Fans want innovate ne types of games, but they want the games of the series they like to keep the original formula and expand on that.
Fans of 2D zelda want the game to follow a similar formula. Dungeons to explore, various items used to solve puzzles, hidden power ups, top down view, etc. New elements are welcome so long as they don't alter the fundamental feel of the game. Unfortunatly, different fans consider different parts of the formula immutable along with the core mechanics.
In my opinion, ocarina of time should have been a new IP..
As seen from other (admittedly early) comments, these spinoffs are good, but the Wii U (and to lesser extent, 3DS) is still missing a token core game from these franchises. For Metroid Prime and Metroid main, it's been since 2009, right? And F-Zero, an absolute no-show...
If we got a traditional Metroid game alongside Federation Force fans wouldn't be that upset.
Metroid Prime Federation Force and Animal Crossing amiibo Party were the two most despised games at Nintendo's E3 (and at this year's E3 in general). So why the hate?? Well, it is simple. We haven't seen a mainline Metroid Prime and Animal Crossing game on Wii U, and those were two highly demanded titles. When spinoffs were announced instead, the reaction was rightfully negative, since Nintendo didn't give into fan demand.
Other spinoff titles, such as Zelda: Tri Force Heroes and Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam were met with a much more positive reception. Why? Because the 3DS already got A Link Between Worlds (as well as Ocarina of Time 3D + Majora's Mask 3D) to satisfy those wanting a mainline Zelda game and Paper Mario Sticker Star + Mario and Luigi Dream Team to satisfy those wanting a Mario RPG. Mainline entries were already released and well received, so spinoffs were welcome and bound to happen.
@MitchVogel yeah! Nintendo doesnt want to admit it directly - that would be stupid. But we can take the lack of core titles as a sign of whats to come. Nintendo is not going to run the risk of having another sales flop on their hands with the NX. Having an AMAZING opening line up is key to grabbing the on-the-fence potential comsumers that have the income to splurge on a new console. My guess is that these games are at least in pre production if not development, which would explain the lack of company resources going towards wii u software.
The push towards NX is why we are getting spin offs instead of main line titles. They have to water down the wii u software team in order to be prepared for launch.
this e3 was to showcase Nintendos second string game devs.
My problem is not with the spin-offs. Spin-offs are fine, and I'm sure these will be great. My problem is that spin-offs were pretty much the only games Nintendo announced. There are very limited games that give people reason to buy a Wii U (off the top of my head, only Smash, Splatoon, and Mario 3D World come to mind). Nintendo should be announcing reasons to buy a Wii U and these spin-offs should be on the side. i.e on the Nintendo site's E3 page, big games should be larger and games like Zelda Triforce Heroes and Metroid Prime FF should be smaller.
My other problem is that there was too much emphasis on games Nintendo already announced like Yoshi, Mario Maker, etc.
If Nintendo can't make anything big right now because of the NX, that's fine. But I'd be less dissapointed if this Digital Event was marketed as a Direct because after last year, Digital Event equates to awesome games being announced to me.
C'mon, guys! We're still getting Yoshi's Wooly World, Mario & Luigi Paper Jam, Zelda U, Devil's Third, Fatal Frame, Rodea The Sky Soldier, Legend of Kay Anniversary, etc., etc.
Just because Nintendo made the mistake of showing off all the wrong games in their press conference, you guys are all acting like these spin-offs you dislike are all we have to look forward to this year; and I honestly believe you ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Not for being critical of Nintendo, not for wanting something different, not even for being unwilling to give these new games a chance; but for letting your emotions get the best of you, and for giving in to angry-mob syndrome when it frankly isn't warranted.
I don't just want good games. I want good stories. I want Star Fox to be treated like the epic it could be rather than as just another in a long line of tech demos. I want Metroid to tell a story in such an amazing unuverse - only the Alien films come close. Nintendo innovates on games, but they do come up well short in telling the stories of their worlds. Nothing sums that up better than the E3 offerings.
And another thing: If someone's not satisfied with how Nintendo's been handling things and wants to switch to another platform, that's entirely their call to make, and I won't act like they're a horrible person for doing so. After all, in the grand scheme of things, which games we enjoy and which companies we choose to support really isn't a big deal.
@Senario Yeah, they'd have to actively try to be worse than that E3.
I'll have to admit, some of the entries were pretty weak. I'm not sure how PM/M&L will work. They each have different visual styles and battle mechanics, though I can't imagine it being blander than Sticker Star.
The Triplayer Zelda is a bit of an oddity. A deep adventure game is not the type of format you want for three-way multiplayer. Multiplayer experiences are better served in quick bursts. I'd imagine much of the game has you tripping switches and activating various events, which in single player mode would add tedium of constantly swapping character roles or overall dumb AI. I can easily see bonus content, side quests, or events that require multiplayer coop to pull off, locking you from 100% completion in single player. Online would be equally fruitless as progress in a level is tied to a game file, as well some opponents may be newbs or worse deliberately sabotage the quest.
Fan expect that Nintendo won't fulfill their expectations based on a single glimpse.
Nintendo doesn't want to waste their time and money on working on large sized "full" games on either Wii U or 3DS. Their focus is NX. That's why we only saw certain spinoffs coming soon. They are keeping big names for the future system that they have hopes for.
Nintendo is shifting resources towards the NX. If they made the games we wanted for the Wii U they wouldnt have anything to show at NX launch. Nintendo wants to make quality releases - if they release a blockbuster metroid game for Wii U - then it will take years for the sequel to arrive on NX. Same goes for most other games - you can either do it like Ubisoft and release a sequel every year that it is mostly copy and paste and full of bugs and glitches or do it like nintendo with years of development in between releases.
I think metroid prime FF, is testing the waters. Let's not forget retros Donkey Kong game sold more than the entire prime series across two platforms. Then the partnered with Team Ninja and made other M resulting in a backlash from fans. They aren't going to make a proper Metroid if its not selling or a entry created by tge series creator being dismissed by fans.
Was FF the best way to go about it? Probably not but it was always intended to be an Metroid game, the prime producer is behind it and its being used to set up more lore for what maybe a proper sequel
I can understand people being confused that Nintendo did not announce a "Animal crossing" game for the Wii U,the game is a big seller and would do pretty well for then,what surprises me is that fan's keep screaming for a "Metroid prime game,apart from the gamecube original which sold around 2 million copies,the franchises two follow up games have failed to even notch up a million sales,which is why Nintendo are not rushing Retro to make a fourth.
tl;dr @ all comments + the article: Water is wet and history repeats itself. Get over it losers.
@ZhuangDaren
This has to be the smartest thing I've seen written on the matter.
I think it's very obvious whats happened here, Nintendo is working on NX, it's going to be a scalable platform I think where games can be played on a portable and home console system and maybe with a fusion type system.
They are going to want to launch the platform with a good catalogue of games, so why would they pump money into developing major titles for Wii U which has been a comercial flop and 3ds which is obviously near the end of its life.
So they make filler games that pass the time, quickly fill the release schedule and can keep most of the teams focus on NX. We dont know what an awful lot of the in house teams and 2nd party devs are working on and they could have quite easily revealed a few of the titles at e3 except then they would have to reveal NX as well. Seems pretty obvious to me
I just don't understand the Federation Force hurt. It looks a lot like a Metroid Prime game to me. In fact, when they showed Blastball at the championships, my first reaction was they made a sports game from Metroid Prime. So the prime tag is perfectly justified I think in the same way Zelda was for Four words (I can hear the silly argument of "yes but you played as Link" already.)
I don't mind the spin offs. It doesn't mean the actual franchise game isn't coming (even if it means it skips a console like sometimes they do). My main criticism is aimed at Animal Crossing Amiibo Festival. It really doesn't matter which franchise is associated to that game, taking turns and rolling a dice around a board is a very basic game no matter how much cuteness you lace it with.
When Nintendo is desperate for better sales, like it currently is with the Wii U, it would probably be better just to give some safe bets rather then be too experimental. The balance should be 70% safe bets - 30% new ideas. Both Mario Kart 8 and Smash were safe bets and did well, but otherwise Nintendo haven't put out tons of obviously safe bets.
Sure NSMBU and SM3DW are kinda safe bets, but even they are slightly off. Launching with 2d over 3d mario was a mistake. 2D may sell better overall, but 3d mario is more attention grabbing for an early launch game. If a 2D Mario game were coming now it would have been better timed to be a safe bet for something a lot of an increased install would latch onto. I suppose Mario Maker is that game.
On the GameCube Nintendo did just as many experiments and very similar to the Wii U have us lots of games that were slightly off our hopes and expectations.
Luigis mansion launch wasn't the Mario game everyone wanted. Star Fox Adventures wasn't the flight based game we wanted, Wind Waker wasn't the OOT follow us people hoped for, and though amazing was mostly rejected in the press before its release. This wouldn't have helped the Cube sell better in anticipation for ZWW. Donkey Kong Jungle Beat was a DKC sequel. Metroid also went in a new direction, and stands as just about the only major change to a series during the cube era that everyone liked. Pokemon never gave us a home console equivalent to what the Game Boy offered which people thought should have been possible on Cube. Even Mario Sunshine came out under the cloud of Nintendo saying they were going to make shorter games and that Sunshine itself wasn't the full follow up to SM64 they intended. Most things on Cube were slightly off.
A lot of this rings true on Wii U. Wind Waker remake may have been a quick turn over but didn't represent what we wanted from a Wii u Zelda. 3D World wasn't Galaxy 3, Star Fox Zero is another rebelling of the original story...again, animal crossing isn't like animal crossing. Even with the Amiibos Nintendo haven't put out any kind of grand Amiibo adventure game which is basically what every rival toy to life game is.
Just another way to word the evolve vs. innovate discussion. I'll always be happy with the Nintendo way of evolving the mainline and innovating the side games, then bring them together and restart the process again.
@Notoriousdrp THANK YOU, it is certainly a joy when you find someone who isn´t a nintendo fanboy justifying all of their current decisions with just NINTENDO IS NINTENDO, THEY ARE THE BEST, THEY WON E3 AND EVERYTHING IS GOLD FROM THEM and actually present a valid point of view.
First of all, yes, they just can´t afford at this point in the console race to be entirely experimental, like they are doing right now with all of the titles they announced at e3. I mean, while Sony announced the FFVII remake that will sell millions of copies and obviously, it will also sell ps4 consoles like the original ps1 game did, Nintendo had the perfect opportunity to counter that and announce a new metroid game for the wii u, to sell more consoles at this point, but nope, federation force is more than enough. CHRIST, even showing off a little of Zelda U would have been a blessing to partially halt all the FFVII/DOOM hype.
Second, the only true game that they showed at e3 was star fox zero, and even though it is an amazing looking game, let´s be frank here, it won´t help boost the sales of the wii u like FFVII will surely do for the ps4, not even close. This e3 was the perfect time to announce something outstanding that would help the wii u sell, but nope, all the good games will be for the nx.
Third, Nintendo is getting waaaaaayyyy too cocky with their amiibos, and while I love them and have a few on my shelves, they are terrible meeting with the demand, and instead of making a balance between supply and demand, they just keep crapping out wave after wave of amiibos, not giving a flying f~ck about seriously re-stocking several of them.
Fourth, I read A LOT of comments in the likes of: It´s not the end of the world, I mean, come on, just look at Yoshi´s wolly world or Xenoblade Chronicles X, they look awesome and you bet I´m gonna pay big bucks for those!!!! Yeah, but those are core gamers and/or people that already have the console, people not owning a wii u right now, won´t buy it just because those games will come out for the wii u, they want something awesome that will help their decision to buy the system, but they are not getting it.
In general.... Nintendo is slipping away because at this point in the game, they are just fooling around while Sony and Microsoft are in a stance of NO MORE MR. NICE GUY, this is the time when the wii u needs serious safe bets to attract more potential buyers, but sadly, I think that they won´t be able to stop the FFVII avalanche.
Nintendo used to make AAA games that could compete with anything else on the market. Now they seem happy making cheap throwaway games with a gimmick thrown in. The NX will be no different! Underpowered with some new hook. Count me out Nintendo I'm done.
Oh and one last thing, How Iwata has kept his job at Nintendo is beyond belief. This guy will usher in another failed system in the NX and it could be too far back for Nintendo by the time they realise it.
Case in point, for "tl;dr" readers: Wind Waker syndrome.
Many have written about people dissing Splatoon last year. Two points about that. 1. Splatoon was not a spinoff from a previous fan-beloved franchise. 2. Who the heck dissed Splatoon? All I saw was praise for Nintendo trying to do something new.
Nintendo is often criticized for spinning their endless wheel of franchises over and over again. Then when it does something differently everyone just gets all boinkers for not giving the same old meatloaf of Metroid or Zelda as before.
My problem is what someone wrote much better before in older feature. Nintendo has a real struggle with the storytelling and lore of their franchises. Star Fox is a perfect example of this. I know it's arcade game in it's heart but the world and the premises have so much more potential and yet this has never been truly focused on. It would be perfect setting for Nintendolike open world game.
With this years spinoffs. Metroid just looked meh to me. I have no interest in it whatsoever. Zelda triforce actually looked good and I am more than willing to try it out after I get new 3ds.
Worst to me was without a doubt the abomination of AC Amiibo festival. It is not even a game. It is not a videogame or a minigame collection. It is not a boardgame. It is badly made picture book that costs the prize of Amiibos. That is bad treatment of a good franchise.
@shani well said.
Nintendo are crap at a lot of things; online features, appealing to third party developers etc... But one thing they do better than most, is make fun games. As long as that doesn't change, they can do whatever they like with my favourite franchises like Metroid and F-Zero. I know I'll have fun playing Nintendo.
I've said it before: double release games on NX and Wii U. That way they can sell to a 10 million user base while getting aboard customers who missed the Wii U. They should not force us to buy new hardware. Games like AC are not very hardware demanding.
People seem to miss that the Wii U has followed the path of the Dreamcast more than any other console in terms of sales and content. Like the Dreamcast, the Wii U is almost solely dependent on games developed or published by Nintendo. So also like the Dreamcast, the Wii U has caused Nintnedo, like Sega before them, to basically throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.
They have to do this because they have to fill in all the genre gaps not being met by third parties. We got Devil's Third, Bayonetta 2, W101, Captain Toad, Splatoon and Hyrule Warriors because they badly needed games like that on the console. Nintendo's strength is platformers, not action, FPS, or even TPS.
The problem is not Nintendo. It is the endless communication inflation on the internet and freedom to complain however one wants...
The problem is not Nintendo. It is the endless communication inflation on the internet and freedom to complain however one wants...
While I do love innovation. Sometimes I think it can be a double edged sword. If you're just innovating for the sake of innovating I don't think that's any good. It should be something that improves on the existing formula.
Otherwise you're better off sticking with what already exists.
I think that's a good thing for a company to try new and different things with their franchises, but I think many of their old fans want the same old game on their consoles every generation. It would be fine if they had enough working on the games, but nintendo needs to try new things...granted that some don't become the hits that they expect (Fling Smash, Eternal Darkness, Custom Robo, Odama, Spirit Camera). I actually love the new things they create, but with Metroid being so long of a new title, I hate the first-person approach and with Animal Crossing...yeah, it would have been nicer with a new sim-game instead of party (but the lack of owners of a Wii U would make it difficult for a fanbase over the internet). Maybe their next console...if it's a hit for them...will bring better games, but right now, they seem to be making games for the Wii U to make the owners happy, not delving into potential flops for them, because they can't afford for a game for the system to flop.
This article is composed of 1 part supposition, and 1 part speculation conjured up from said supposition. We know very little about MPFF at present but I think we can rest assured that the plot will interesect or coincide in some way with Samus' exploits.
Obviously folks were surprised a formal MP installment was eschewed, but a new perspective into the Metroid Prime universe might me a welcome surprise. Who became king of the universe and decided Samus MUST be in every Metroid game? The series isn't called "Samus Prime" ya know?
It's not like Nintendo decided to make FF INSTEAD of a traditional installment. They are both in the works, the timing is just off a bit.
I understand the frustration but why even waste energy complaining when we know so little? Like, I'm still sore over the Zelda delay/lack of announcement but I don't feel like I need to crucify anything over it! lol
@Boxmonkey yeah! Another one bites dust.
@kocazerzei Sure it is chief. Our small fan base completely dictates how this company is run.
@Pigeon Devil's Third is going to be a big multiplayer game on Wii U and Xenoblade Chronicles will allow multiplayer co-op. I'm also sure Wii U will go out with a bang rather than fade away because its install base is Nintendo's biggest fans so it can't just push it aside. Just because they didn't announce games that will be coming at the end of 2016 or in 2017 doesn't mean there are none.
Once again, we see a bunch of 180 degree turn arounds on public opinion within the core Nintendo base after a disastrous showing. May as well rename Federation Force to Defense Force, because that seems to be the rallying cry among those with behavior resembling Stockholm syndrome.
There comes a point where bad decisions need to be less tolerated, when they are committed at inopportune moments. Any number of convenient explanations to whisk away mishaps from the company in question, and onto the customer, of all people ("customers are entitled, don't know what they want, are ignorant," etc etc), only serves to reinforce the market mentality of absolving responsibility when bad decisions are made. It's not a negative thing to call out Nintendo on their mistakes, it's our duty as active participants in a market-based society to do so. If we just accept whatever is given to us at face value ("don't whine, shut up, buy it or don't"), then we as customers lose any power we have in the marketplace.
So let the discussion continue, don't try to prematurely end it by handing your innate power over to the top of the gaming market's hierarchy.
Nintendo, not only betrayed their fan base. They blamed the fan base for the betrayal, and have been very clear that no fan opinions matter.
@Senario My friends and I are all in our late 20s, early 30s, so I more mean that they moved to Skyrim the way they moved from watching Dragon Ball Z to watching Game of Thrones. They started looking for things that were more dramatic and gruesome. The main story of Skyrim feels a lot like Zelda to me. Instead of getting special Items I get dragon roars and I am still traveling across an over world map to enter dungeons. That is why I probably preferred Oblivion to Skyrim.
As far as E3 I meant in general the whole of this E3 is the worst I can remember. The fact that the season proceeding this E3 was incredibly weak in quality console game releases for 2 new major consoles made me think that they were really going to go wild at this E3, but each company pretty much announced that the consoles are getting a lot of remakes, sequels, or generally uninspired IP. They are rehashing old game mechanics and slapping them with a new coat of paint and expect players to be excited about paying a ton of money to essentially play a spit-shined version of last generation's innovations. I can appreciate revisiting long lost series like Fallout 3 or Doom 3 did, but now those aren't really E3 caliber announcements.
Nintendo in my opinion was on par with the rest because they announced what was expected. It's not like Bethesda said "Hey, we are rebooting Hexen because we have Raven and The Elder Scrolls Teams" or EA said "We made a Battlefront game that is adding to the gameplay of the last one" instead of reducing gameplay elements by making the ATAT an on-rails mechanic and not an actual team vehicle. Bethesda is making Fallout 4, EA is making Battlefield 4: Star Wars edition, Microsoft is making another Halo and Nintendo is making another Star Fox. Bethesda has even admitted that Fallout 4 is going to look as bad as the trailer looked without providing a playable demo and people complained about Nintendo having a graphically gimped, yet playable, demo of Star Fox. A junk E3 all around with Nintendo taking some chances with changing established IP like Metroid. When compared to mobile with Nvidia Shield TV getting full ports of a few AAA hits, a port of Torchlight, and a slew of original, high quality indie titles mobile pretty much said "micro-consoles have more developer support than the big guys".
@darth2d2 This generation as a whole has been that way. For all of this talk of innovation there sure hasn't been a lot of it, it's been very same old, same old the entire time from every developer.
Alrighty for starters let me just say that I am more excited for amiibo festival than I would be for a new main title in the series. I love party games. Check. I love animal crossing. Check. I can play it with my parents who have never played anything but animal crossing. Check. Most importantly, it surprised me. It made me so happy that it was unexpected. A main animal crossing game would have been fine but nothing they could have done would surprise me. To be honest the series is a little same-y. A couple spin off titles will do so much good in making the franchise as a whole better and animal crossing deserves it. The fact that they are willing to experiment like this means that the series is in a great place in the eyes of Nintendo and their fans.
there are a lot of good points in the comments but people keep ignoring a really impact thing about animal crossing amiibo festival. It may not actually be a game for them. The vocal crowd on the Internet is not the demographic targeted by that game. Most of the people who are super passionate about the series are not on the Internet. My parents love animal crossing and I'm always trying to get them into more games. I think this is a great way to add another game to that list. This game is made for people who haven't tried any games other than animal crossing. It's made for parents to share animal crossing with their young kids.
If this game bothers you or you have massive complaints about it. If was probably not made for you. Don't assume everyone hates it or nobody wants it. A lot of the people that do just don't watch e3, don't follow game news, and aren't on this website.
@PlywoodStick I have been happy with the e3 showing since the morning of. Don't assume everyone hated it. I love everything they showed and will be more than happy this season.
@Bolt_Strike
That's because games cost too much to make, and the returns are getting slimmer and slimmer.
Consumer expectation for high end graphics is leading to an unsustainable product. Most of the cost associated with games today are from the visuals. As one aspect becomes more costly, all others suffer, and as game dev becomes more costly, risk taking innovations become less and less practical for devs.
@khaosklub Which is even stupider when you notice that graphical improvements are becoming less and less noticeable which makes this entire push for cutting edge graphics entirely pointless.
@FireFrog4 The main problem Nintendo has right now, are gamers like you. Don´t take it the wrong way, it´s just that from everything that you posted you sound like a very casual fanboy nintendo gamer who would buy everything from them, even if it´s just on sub-par quality. Ok, that being said, animal crossing amiibo festival sucks ass because instead of giving us a proper animal crossing game that actually resembles the source material from where it came from, NOPE, just do a mario party kinda spinoff, launch a new line of amiibos, make them mandatory for the game and the fish will bite, yeah, we´re geniuses here at nintendo.
People like you will buy that atrocity of a game, and since nintendo will see that it sold decent because of that, they are gonna assume that every gamer is awaiting an amiibo festival 2, so in a couple years, on the nx, we will see the next iteration of amiibo festival, with 3 more waves of amiibos.
That is the reason why nintendo is putting out sh*tty games like that one.
Yeah I don't think I'll be buying a single one of these games.
@ALEC_EIFFEL Please don't attack the person instead of their points. @FireFrog4 raises valid points. Animal Crossing has become stagnant. If you think about it the DS and Wii games are essentially the same game, and the 3DS on has not brought a ton of innovation. Now some of that is by design, but I think even the developers are realizing they have put themselves into a corner and don't know where to go next.
As much as I don't like the idea of Animal Crossing: House Arrest on 3DS and Animal Crossing: amiibos Play Candyland, they are at least giving fans of the franchises a visit with friends while they try to figure out their next step. Do you want the 7 years of silence Metroid got?
As for Metroid, it's been a long time and it is disappointing not to continue Samus's story. But the last game out for her was a disaster and they don't want to pull the character from the creator. So instead they are focusing on an aspect of the universe they can change and grow. Let's see what interesting things they can do with it.
Ok, wait a minute...so 2D to 3D Metroid is "Evolution", while Metroid Prime to Prime Federation Force is "Transformation"?
Sounds like a very subjectively irrational comparison.
I mean, almost nothing in 2D and 3D Metroid is similar when it comes to gameplay.
While Prime and Fed Force is , well first off we don't really know, but judging by footage, it is pretty similar except for the fact that the "mood" and "objectives" are different.
It seems more like a different "mode" of Prime.
And while that could mean that it at the end might also feel completely different, I still think it is pretty illogical to say that 2D to 3D is less different.
In other words, 2D to 3D would then be more of a "transformation" than Prime to Fed Force...
@MIDP If you think 2D and 3D Metroid are completely different you're not looking hard enough. 2D and 3D have different styles but the same spirit, in both you're exploring open ended worlds looking for powerups that allow you access to new areas, they just realize this differently. Whereas Prime and FF have a similar look to them but completely different gameplay, FF has a limited range of abilities and dumps you in an arena to complete a mission. And that's where the difference between evolution and transformation makes itself evident, in Prime they took the same gameplay in a new direction with a new hardware feature, FF just changes the gameplay.
Mario is the only character that does evolution and transformation right.
Speaking of transformation......where is that Wario game for the 3DS?
@Artwark And even he hasn't been doing it right this gen.
Nintendo just don't 'get' it most of the time anymore.
Metroid FF should be a new franchise instead of dragging its name through the dirt for a second time. Star Fox Zero looks like a clusterf#$k to be honest and needs to be delayed.
@ALEC_EIFFEL haha you're hilarious. I might be what's wrong with Nintendo but you are what's wrong with the games industry. You want the same games year after year. You want company's to stick to what their good at and never experiment. You judge games entirely on 30 seconds of footage without ever touching them. You are the reason the industry is stagnant. If only casuals are allowed to like Nintendo then they have it much better off.
You want to know why I will buy all of Nintendo's games? It's because they are fun. Plain and simple. No other company knows how to create a polished experience that puts fun first quite like Nintendo. People who are afraid of Splatoon because of the colors and are afraid to play kirby's epic yarn because it looks childish miss out on so many great experiences.
Yup I also love spin off titles. They show that a series is doing well and the developer is willing to take a chance. Mario 3D World would not have been as good with out the Mario karts and Mario parties right next to it.
20 years ago, I got a SNES. Then, a Nintendo 64. In between, a Game Boy.
The first I am not nostalgic about but don't dislike. The other two I will vehemently defend.
I didn't like the Nintendo 64 days because of just Nintendo in hindsight... But because of other crucial, definitive games on the system: Banjo-Kazooie, Diddy Kong Racing, Snowboard Kids, Donkey Kong 64. The system anchored a commitment to Nintendo for all these different reasons.
Some argue the releases were far fewer than the PS, perhaps this was problematic, but to me, all my time spent on each game was bountiful. Since then, my experiences on Nintendo systems did not progress, they regressed. The GameCube lost a major second party developer, in Rare. The pivotal point however, has not to do with Rare, but with the aftermath for Nintendo: absolutely zero ongoing business relationships with an Independent Second Party Developer in other words, a second party developer free enough to call the shots as to the kind of games admissible for release. We had M rated Conker, and E rated Banjo, and experimental, yet fulfilling 3D worlds in the form of Donkey Kong 64, which frankly, Rare was **entirely responsible** for making into a respected franchise after DKC. Miyamoto himself expressed displeasure with Donkey Kong Country for the SNES. This is a developer who was not to take Nintendo in the right direction, ever, going forward.
Miyamoto expressed displeasure with DKC specifically due to the graphical leaps and bounds forward that the game brought with it, something he once claimed was irrelevant to fundamental and appealing gaming experiences.
These general threads of history are what have brought us to present form Nintendo. A company that had lost its potential in the gaming sphere since the GameCube, due to no healthy, mutually balanced, independent relations with a second party developer. The Retro Studios of today is a shell of the Rare of the former days — this is the take away — not that Rare are a shell of their former selves. The day Nintendo lost Rare was indeed the day Nintendo should have sounded itself off to every consumer as a company with DEEPLY problematic design philosophies. Philosophies involving the sheer refusal to make games with clean, immaculate features from Super Mario 64, and in this particular case, think about the everlasting appeal of tracks like Dire, Dire Docks, rather than most anything from the levels of Sunshine. Objective (and majority) preference for that track over Sunshine tracks do indicate the beginnings of a Nintendo that chose a quirky, off-kilter tone for their gaming experiences over the immaculate stuff of Super Mario 64 (or the operatic / classic Zeldas I will get into later).
Suspicious design philosophies in Double Dash!! and The Wind Waker, two games supposedly boasting a STILL graphically potent hardware system — both so different from one another, and still, and this is clear as day, they converge to tell one simple thing: Nintendo unquestionably took Cartoons in a 64-bit Heightened Reality to a Truly Displaced, Truly Comical Cubic Era.
Coinciding and Correlating with the departure of Rare, this was the crash of Nintendo's console era and one they have never recovered from. The hardware power of the GameCube only indicates one more thing. The problem is not just with Nintendo's "seemingly absent" hardware fitness today, it rests deeper with its destructive design ineptitude.
To only add salt to the wound, this Japanese game maker dismisses in unbecoming corporate style the crossover Mario content in the simultaneously classic and progressive Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening, the most quintessential one of them all. One should look at the Iwata Asks for Link's Awakening on 3DS to see that they campily dismiss the way Mario content could cross over to a Zelda game, and that today, this could not "pass."
As handhelds continue to flounder and lose market presence, and the iPhone era takes over, a casual yet involving experience like Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening could only live on in Nintendo's home console line.
Enter the last beacon, of the last hope, of the last bastion, Nintendo actually has left that keeps it existent: the fans waiting, en niche, for a sign that all is not over, and that Zelda will come back to evangelize everything that has ever been and ever will be for pure entertainment's sake.
But Zelda won't actually return, not the way you would have hoped for, not the way you know deep down, will satisfy you. The stereotypical narrative tropes of the Triforce, of Good vs Evil, and of unabashed steam-punking are and will all be there to indicate to you, since E3 2014, that this game is just not the game you have been waiting for.
Nintendo is Dead.
@FireFrog4 I don´t want the same thing all over again, I can appreciate an excellent new twist when it´s applied in the correct manner, for example the warioware series, it´s a very different approach than the classic wario land series, it´s a series of minigames that test your reflexes and memory, it can appeal to both the casual gamer that wants a quick fix or the hardcore one that wants to have the best times and/or high scores. You see? That´s a different new series created from an original, wario land, and it was created with an open approach for all kinds of gamers.
Yet your casual perspective blinds you from seeing the real issue here, you´re talking apples and oranges here and it clearly shows when you compare super mario 3D world, epic yarn and splatoon to pieces of crap like animal crossing party, because Super mario 3D world and Splatoon are AAA games, the only one that could be used in your example is epic yarn.
And I can shove your comment aside with 1 game that can compare to metroid ff and animal crossing party: MARIO TENNIS OPEN, the most casual and boring game nintendo has released in recent years; the "game" is basically you tap the touch the screen and the game basically plays itself. So tell me, how is mario tennis open much more fun than gravity rush for example?
You want a game that basically is GO BUY A SET OF ANIMAL CROSSING FIGURINES, TAP THEM IN THE GAMEPAD AND WATCH THE GAME PLAY ITSELF!!!!!! And you say I´m the one who´s wrong? Pleeeeease....
lol! wow people still are defending nintendo xD why though when you know they gave us bad game announcements and copy paste spin off games that just say developers were lazy and threw something together just to thorw it at you then ask you to pay the fulll price! yet you guys still defend that right there and say "eh im looking forward to it and will buy it" well good for you if you sink that low of a level! its why developers now a days give us all bad games!! remember you are a costumer paying for these games so why is it bad for people to demand games they want and are handing the money for said game?
"Yeah, I'm all for spinoffs and such when we've got the regular games as well." got to agree with that quote from someone above as i feel the same we usually do get the AAA games then a spin off which is fine but we didnt get any good games this time just copy paste like i said(animal crossing, zelda tri heroes or what ever)
anyway in the end fans/gamers/consumers etc expect games to take it the next step from what we saw years ago we want to know what is next into the franchise we enjoyed a few years ago? We also wanted to see what is nintendo up to or working on even if its still in beta or just 3d models still that is what we like not copy paste be real for a sec here
@ALEC_EIFFEL haha you are literally proving my point for me! For starters do you really think that if a trailer for the first WarioWare were to be in the direct and no one heard of the series before that people wouldn't hate just as bad if not worse than they are hating on everything else? That's extremely hypocritical. Games like that don't get loved until after they come out.
And the fact that you use Mario tennis open in an agreement like that tells me all I need to know about you. You are shallow. You look at things at surface level and refuse to dig. Mario Tennis Open is one of the most skill based games Nintendo has ever released. You wouldn't know that now would you? You either haven't played or barely played long enough to figure out the controls. Play against someone half decent and you would lose everyone by "letting the game play itself". Nintendo includes options like that to be more inclusive of their customers.
What trailer were you watching of amiibo party? The game play from treehouse showed a lot of interesting things that will be great in a Mario party game. Although trying to convince you is futile since you already made up your mind. That's just the type of person you are and why I actually feel really bad for you. Amiibo party could be the best party game ever made and you would still hate on it. You can keep waiting for Sony to actually release something and trying to argue with people on the Internet because gosh darn it they just won't agree with you. I'm more than satisfied with Nintendo.
@Nicolai this is an argument I understand. They missed a lot of great unique games that they didn't really show in the direct. I'm actually super excited for fatal frame and am upset they barely showed it.
I think it's obvious the current team making decisions is out of touch with gaming. Fire every one of them and get some fresh faces in.
@FireFrog4 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA REALLY???!!!! MARIO TENNIS OPEN A SKILLFUL GAME???!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Dude, all of your credibility as a gamer went down the toilet the moment you acknowledged that piece of crap as an amazing game, I had that game for 4 months and all I had to do to win is simply tap the touch screen, the chance shots literally tell you what to do, the circles show you where the ball is going to land and what is the best shot you can do to return it to your adversary. Be it human or CPU, the game literally helps you all the time, the game simply has no challenge.
You want a deep game? Advance wars. The graphics are really simple, but the gameplay and music are incredible, all of the units have a certain aspect that can push you forward to victory or defeat, depending on how you use them, and you simply cannot win just by winging it a la mario tennis open, nope, in this game you either plan your every move or the AI is gonna serve you your own ass. You´re mistaking me for shallow, I think the adjective you're looking for is complex.
I´m not even gonna bother reading the rest of your comment, if you want games where you´re told exactly what to do step by step and force you to buy figurines to enjoy the game 100%, then be my guest, but I´m not even gonna bother with crap like that. I´m a nintendo gamer but unlike you I´m not a blind fanboy that ignores the possibility that maybe the ps4 is pwning the wii u because sony is actually delivering games that their fanbase really want to play and enjoy.
@Bolt_Strike @MIDP
gotta agree with MIDP on this one. the atmosphere is the same, but the games play dramatically different.
some are metroid fans, they like the 2D games. some are prime fans, they like the 3D games. Prime is a spinoff of metroid, just as super mario 64 was a spin-off of the super mario bros/world series. we even have both mario series with their own lines now, with NSMB and SM3DW.
they should be viewed as 2 different series, and other M being another spinoff, being drastically different in gameplay from all other metroid games.
I suppose one's view may be based on what makes the series what it is. but I don't see anyone calling Zelda a mario clone for being some dude saving a princess from a big red haired animal monster thing. I can't imagine anyone referring to prime as a metroidvania game. any game that has been considered a clone of another was the exact same mechanics slapped with a different set of paints. I assert that mechanics make the game, because while prime has the same atmosphere and lore (or spirit); atmosphere and lore, a game does not make.
metroid is defined by the mechanics and challenges. prime's mechanics, while based on those of the 2D games, are drastically different. Some people are upset about samus not being in it, but I'd say that isn't even important. people are excited for axiom verge because it's like metroid, and it doesn't have samus. while samus is what we're used to, she's not necessary to recreating the gameplay, but is a problem for fans of the STORY, not the games.
fans of the lore don't mine the leap from 2D to 3D, because they're happy to have more of samus's story. this is where contention can form within the fanbase. some are fans of the actual games, and want more games with those mechanics, a few more added on, controls more fine tuned, and new environments and challenges. some are fans of the story, but not particularly keen on the gameplay (though they don't hate it), but would prefer the lore carried on in a genre (set of mechanics) that appeals to them more, like say FPS.
Federation force is the unfortunate disappointment of both fans of the story and prime gameplay. while the mechanics are mostly ripped out of metroid prime, the 4 player aspect adds and takes away from those mechanics, making the game very different. and fleshing out the lore of a universe that fans don't much care about rubs the story fans the wrong way. the only thing that's important to story fans in samus herself, and her adventures.
so... I guess you're both kinda right on your views really. viewing in terms of the actual game, it's a dramatic transformation. in terms of story, it's not evolution though, simply continuation, or addition, since prime is injected within the story. It's highly dependent on what the series is to you. is it the story of samus? or is it the mechanics specific to the game? it can be both really, but whatever it is to a person, the person will not want whichever of those aspects to be "transformed".
@khaosklub Prime's mechanics aren't significantly different from the 2D's at all. Most of the abilities are shared between them, as well as other gameplay elements like expansions, pickups, save stations, and the like. Where they differ is more in terms of control and design, not mechanics. It feels different because of the difference between exploring a 2D level vs. exploring a 3D level, and that's not altogether a big enough difference for them to be viewed as separate series.
@ALEC_EIFFEL I love advance wars but the fact that you can't find depth in games like Mario tennis clearly means you aren't playing them right. I guarantee I or anyone who knows anything could beat you 100% of the time like that.
If you think Sony has done anything right you are clearly living in a different universe. Microsoft is doing fine but Sony hasn't released a single good game that wasn't available elsewhere or a remake. The fact that you are so supportive of that proves all you want is the same game over and over since remastered is literally in the title of 50% of their best games.
In short, stop hating on games you know nothing about. This is my last comment since your a Sony fan boy I don't want to be seen talking to you
@FireFrog4 Yeah, I´m a sony fanboy who owns every Nintendo console but the wii u, great deduction abilities there Sherlock; and you´re a nintendo blind fanboy, and my piece of advice to you would be: stop gloryfying everything that nintendo does, just because it has mario on the cover doesn´t mean it´s a good game and face the facts, the ps4 is pwning the wii u, it´s not an opinion, it´s a fact. I should be more embarrassed talking to you over something so simple as that.
I commend them for taking risks. Almost nothing on PS4 and Xbone take risks in my opinion. Still good games, but very safe.
@FireFrog4 I was just referring to those who found disdain in the E3 on the day of, and now have made a 180 degree turnabout on their opinion.
It's good that you found things to like, a lot of people didn't. I have such a huge backlog that it doesn't affect me as much as others.
@Bolt_Strike
while the names for abilities are all the same, they do not work the same.
Best example is the screw attack. Combat in the two games are worlds apart. The scan visor is different, spider ball is completely different. The jump mechanics are worlds apart and you can't lock on in metroid.
2D metroid is designed around platforming, prime is designed around combat. When you enter a room in either game, your thought process and expectations are completely different. Generally, in metroid, you think about how to get to the otherside of the room, keeping an eye out for potential hidden items. In prime, you look for hostiles, the proceed to scan everything, then check the map for doors and figure out where you go from here.
It's a drastically different game! It's like saying mega man zero 3 and metroid fusion are the same game. Both have weird enemies that change form, a fight against your original self, jumping, jumping in midair, weapons and powerups, armor upgrades and help from an ai of an old respected comrad with no body. Both alsomhave charge shots and elementally charged weapons. But the implementations of these similar ideas are worlds apart!
Like sonic and mario, you collect yellow things, get power ups that let you get hit more, you run forward and jump on enemies. But even with tge same core elements, they are far from being tge same mechanics! Even mario bros 1 and 3 have fairly different mechanics!
Also, control is directly linked to the mechanics. What are you defining mechanics as?
@Jetset
an interesting question would be what you think about the other 3D mario games, like galaxy, 3D world, and even luigi's masion.
@PlywoodStick haha yeah. I do hope people will give these games a fair chance. In all honesty, Nintendo could not release a single game until next E3 and I would still have enough to play.
@Jetset
I feel that if atmosphere is the most important element for you, then games probably aren't the right media for you. sure, games can have atmosphere, but they aren't inherent to game, so if you're just looking for atmosphere, there are better ways to do so. Some movies can instill atmosphere, most books, and I think you'll probably love VR coming out eventually.
I think you'd be better served in VR simulation of an event, probably the best atmospheric experience you'll get outside of real life.
do you think you would have enjoyed mario galaxy without the game aspect? you simply wander around the world and experience story? basically if the entire game were an extension of the star festival experience?
what if the next galaxy game featured the F.L.U.D.D.?
anyway, all that aside, I don't think it's a generational thing as to why you prefer sunshine over 64, while most I know of prefer 64. you say that what you care about most is atmosphere. I think that all gamers are after something different when they game. some people want to be challenged and to think. some want to be told a story, and some like you just want to experience awe-inspiring atmosphere.
sunshine may excel at atmosphere, and you may prefer the F.L.U.D.D. mechanics, but I feel that when people want more games in a series, they're generally looking for a continuation of what they were looking for in the previous games.
Those who loved mario 64, probably didn't fall for it for it's atmosphere (though I think the boo mansion was great), and the story is well, one sentence long really. princess is kidnapped and hidden in paintings somewhere. So the only thing for that game to excel in, is the gameplay itself. The fans of 3D mario at this point are expecting another game with comparable gameplay, but with new environments, and new challenges, with some more game mechanics thrown into the mix perhaps.
so, when fans went into mario sunshine, they had gameplay expectations, which were not met. If the game were a new IP with the F.L.U.D.D. mechanics, it would have probably done better. while it may have been a good game for whatever reason on it's own, it wasn't a very good mario game.
for you, 3D mario is defined by sunshine. when you hear of a new mario game, you're hoping of more of the same atmosphere. well, not the exact same atmosphere perhaps, but the same quality of atmosphere.
the gameplay seems to be engaging to you because it is uncommon, rather than you personally liking the mechanic. as I suggested earlier, you don't seem to be into gaming for the actual gaming part. the F.L.U.D.D. was interesting for you because it was novel. each successive game with these mechanics would become more and more boring to you.
you even say " I definitely prefer the mechanics of F.L.U.D.D. over the usual jumping around normally", which suggests that the normal jumping around is boring because it's usual, or common.
I wouldn't say that sunshine is underrated, but rather than the majority of people rating it probably aren't interested in it for it's atmosphere, and were expecting mario 64 2.
I think sunshine would have been more successful as a unique IP. Maybe starring waluigi? maybe he was up to no good and is sent to serve out community service cleaning up the island. just like luigi's games are pretty much ghost hunting, waluigi's could be about wacky adventures while cleaning up locations with the F.L.U.D.D. The atmosphere could be the same I think (haven't actually played sunshine), and it would probably be given more of a chance. WaLuigi's Sunshine! people wouldn't have the expectations from Mario 64 for this game, so it would be judged on the merits of the mechanic, narrative, and atmosphere, AND not in comparison to Mario 64.
I think this would also be a great way to salvage federation force and calm the metroid fanbase down.
@Jetset why take offense? I'm simply suggesting that there are better ways to experience atmosphere than games.
let's say I like music, right? I want to listen to some great music. Movies have some great scores. would it make sense for me to watch movies to get my music fix? yes! it would make sense since movies have some great music. would it be optimal? no, it would not. I would be better served with experiences that are focused more on music.
so, with atmosphere, VR is a very good way to experience it. check out this video about an oculus rift experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM9s5cOKe8c
no need to take offense, I'm simply suggesting that you might be seeking atmosphere in the wrong place.
Also, go watch a movie with D-box motion code. I think you'd love it.
I've personally found books to be pretty immersive atmosphere wise. maybe you're just not reading the right books for you?
well, if it only focused on atmosphere, I wouldn't exactly call it a game. more like an interactive experience? nomenclature aside, yes, I think indeed it could be something amazing.
well, I said if the next galaxy game had F.L.U.D.D. (that's really annoying to type). the game would be built from the ground up around crazy spherical planet gravity physics along with the F.L.U.D.D. mechanics (ctrl + v for the win!).
"I think that all gamers are after something different when they game. some people want to be challenged and to think. some want to be told a story, and some like you just want to experience awe-inspiring atmosphere."
-me
"I know I've used the word a lot already, but atmosphere is the single most important factor to me in a game"
-you
I'm not saying that all you want is atmosphere, but that atmosphere is why you game, as suggested by it being the "single most important factor to me in a game". I'm addressing people's motivation for playing games.
Like the example I used about music. If I watched movies, then my motivation for watching them would be music. I may enjoy the other aspects, but my primary focus was music. If the movie had no music, I wouldn't watch it.
"Not a good Mario game? Is that why it got Universal Acclaim? People loved Sunshine and they loved it's gameplay."
-you
"while it may have been a good game for whatever reason on it's own, it wasn't a very good mario game."
-me
maybe because it was just a good game? it seems like you've argued these points before and are triggered by certain statements. I even admit it could be a good game, but it wasn't a good mario game, because of fan expectations after mario 64. The only legitimate reason for making a sequel is to fulfill fan expectation, otherwise, you should just make a new IP, thus my waluigi example. You're getting defensive when I've made no attacks. I understand that you've probably had to defend sunshine 1000 times, but I'm not attacking the game. simply rationalizing the negative reception the game has gotten.
"That's not at all the case. It felt more fun and deep controlling F.L.U.D.D. than your typical jumping moveset."
well, thanks for clarifying. you only give me so much to go off of. I simply interpreted your words as they were written. I even say that I'm going off what the statement suggested.
also, I'm not criticizing sunshine, aside from saying that it didn't meet the fan expectation.
Also, to be completely honest, I did play sunshine way back when, but I only played a little. I sprayed a puddle of gunk, I think fought a piranha plant? used the F.L.U.D.D. as a jetpack, then got bored and stopped playing it. Long time ago, and don't remember the game so well. just wasn't for me.
besides the point anyway.
@Jetset
I'd say that VR is probably related to video GAMES as much as video games are related to movies. one came first and probably provided some sort of inspiration for the other. They are not one in the same though.
A "game" is just that, a game. The sims, minecraft, gary's mod, and the first segment of mario galaxy isn't technically a game. they're just toys/experiences. you wouldn't consider legos or a dollhouse a game. there has to be rules, a lose state, and a goal.
like in the VR video I sent you, you're just going through the experience. it's kinda like the pirates of the Caribbean theme park ride, except you get to control the pace. that's just atmosphere and nothing else.
The way I see it, atmosphere can enhance gameplay, but gameplay doesn't enhance atmosphere.
I mean, from what I've seen of the last of us, it's mainly an atmosphere that takes a break for a while in combat scenes, I've only seen a bit of it. but for the most part, you're walking along the lines of the story, and simply punished for either walking out of bounds or being too slow. the first part of it could hardly be called a game. If you took all combat out of the last of us, or made it into a cutscene, would the experience be worse? it would be a worse game, sure, but that'd just be because it'd no longer be a game. it'd essentially be a long movie with you controlling the pace, or a virtual experience.
Yes, Jord was claiming that mario 64 was a superior product to mario sunshine. it may be the case, it may not be, but what I've been saying this whole time is that people like him actually dislike the game because of their expectations following mario 64. Not everyone likes the water gun mechanics. so those that don't are disappointed by the sequel. some people liked the mechanics more, so they don't see the problem, because to them, it's a better game. some people didn't like the mechanics of super mario 64, but enjoyed the experience enough to play on. if mario sunshine provided more experience then gameplay, they'd be satisfied too.
I simply criticize making a sequel with drastically different mechanics. people who play mario more or less just want to jump on goombas and throw fireballs. Like I said before, if they made it a waluigi game, people would still be mad that there was no mario game on the gamecube, but there wouldn't be as much hate for it, since there is no expectation for a waLuigi game, and there'd probably be a fairly successful sequel to it on the 3DS today. maybe a waLuigi sunshine arcade cabinet, or luigi's mansion cross over.
@Jetset
yeah, people wouldn't be raging about federation force if it was it's own IP, but I'm not so sure people wouldn't really care. look at the hype around splatoon. a new IP that everyone went crazy for. people are pretty starved for content with nintendo. there aren't any alternatives as far as I know for this kind of game on the 3DS.
But also, I think it's an underhanded play to attach popular IP to attract the fans to a new game.
it's like star fox adventures, epic yarn, mario bros 2 and almost splatoon. those were all original ideas that would have been new IP's, and all but splatoon were given a popular IP. they did consider giving splatoon a mario skin too. it might have been a mario sunshine spinoff. then you'd be in the same position as prime fans are now. it'd be a mario sunshine spinoff, with no sign of you getting a proper sunshine sequel. It would be sunshine in name alone, and the atmosphere would be an empty shell of it's former self.
well, I suppose my favorite games would be mega man 10, mega man zero 3, Dance Dance Revolution Extreme, and Rockband 3. I suppose smash bros makes the list as well.still undecided if I like melee or sm4sh better, both are pretty awesome in their own right, and sm4sh has mega man....
for me, it's always been about pure gameplay. I also prefer games with a music focus, and memorized patterns and testing one's ability to follow the patterns precisely and test your coordination.
smash is an exception, but I love it for the tight controls and freedom.
@Jetset
yeah, people wouldn't be raging about federation force if it was it's own IP, but I'm not so sure people wouldn't really care. look at the hype around splatoon. a new IP that everyone went crazy for. people are pretty starved for content with nintendo. there aren't any alternatives as far as I know for this kind of game on the 3DS.
But also, I think it's an underhanded play to attach popular IP to attract the fans to a new game.
it's like star fox adventures, epic yarn, mario bros 2 and almost splatoon. those were all original ideas that would have been new IP's, and all but splatoon were given a popular IP. they did consider giving splatoon a mario skin too. it might have been a mario sunshine spinoff. then you'd be in the same position as prime fans are now. it'd be a mario sunshine spinoff, with no sign of you getting a proper sunshine sequel. It would be sunshine in name alone, and the atmosphere would be an empty shell of it's former self.
well, I suppose my favorite games would be mega man 10, mega man zero 3, Dance Dance Revolution Extreme, and Rockband 3. I suppose smash bros makes the list as well.still undecided if I like melee or sm4sh better, both are pretty awesome in their own right, and sm4sh has mega man....
for me, it's always been about pure gameplay. I also prefer games with a music focus, and memorized patterns and testing one's ability to follow the patterns precisely and test your coordination.
smash is an exception, but I love it for the tight controls and freedom.
@Jetset
yeah, people wouldn't be raging about federation force if it was it's own IP, but I'm not so sure people wouldn't really care. look at the hype around splatoon. a new IP that everyone went crazy for. people are pretty starved for content with nintendo. there aren't any alternatives as far as I know for this kind of game on the 3DS.
But also, I think it's an underhanded play to attach popular IP to attract the fans to a new game.
it's like star fox adventures, epic yarn, mario bros 2 and almost splatoon. those were all original ideas that would have been new IP's, and all but splatoon were given a popular IP. they did consider giving splatoon a mario skin too. it might have been a mario sunshine spinoff. then you'd be in the same position as prime fans are now. it'd be a mario sunshine spinoff, with no sign of you getting a proper sunshine sequel. It would be sunshine in name alone, and the atmosphere would be an empty shell of it's former self.
well, I suppose my favorite games would be mega man 10, mega man zero 3, Dance Dance Revolution Extreme, and Rockband 3. I suppose smash bros makes the list as well.still undecided if I like melee or sm4sh better, both are pretty awesome in their own right, and sm4sh has mega man....
for me, it's always been about pure gameplay. I also prefer games with a music focus, and memorized patterns and testing one's ability to follow the patterns precisely and test your coordination.
smash is an exception, but I love it for the tight controls and freedom.
@Jetset
yeah, people wouldn't be raging about federation force if it was it's own IP, but I'm not so sure people wouldn't really care. look at the hype around splatoon. a new IP that everyone went crazy for. people are pretty starved for content with nintendo. there aren't any alternatives as far as I know for this kind of game on the 3DS.
But also, I think it's an underhanded play to attach popular IP to attract the fans to a new game.
it's like star fox adventures, epic yarn, mario bros 2 and almost splatoon. those were all original ideas that would have been new IP's, and all but splatoon were given a popular IP. they did consider giving splatoon a mario skin too. it might have been a mario sunshine spinoff. then you'd be in the same position as prime fans are now. it'd be a mario sunshine spinoff, with no sign of you getting a proper sunshine sequel. It would be sunshine in name alone, and the atmosphere would be an empty shell of it's former self.
well, I suppose my favorite games would be mega man 10, mega man zero 3, Dance Dance Revolution Extreme, and Rockband 3. I suppose smash bros makes the list as well.still undecided if I like melee or sm4sh better, both are pretty awesome in their own right, and sm4sh has mega man....
for me, it's always been about pure gameplay. I also prefer games with a music focus, and memorized patterns and testing one's ability to follow the patterns precisely and test your coordination.
smash is an exception, but I love it for the tight controls and freedom.
@Jetset
neber tried rhythm heaven, have enough rhythm games. it does look good though.
meh, not at all interested in rockband 4. they're taking a huge step back and making it more arcade-like. taking away pro instruments, real guitar compatibility, no keytar. it's not for me. probably a good place to start for beginners though
Show Comments
Leave A Comment
Hold on there, you need to login to post a comment...