Just to put in my 2 cents, I always found Twilight Princess to be the culmination of the series. It took some of the best elements from all the other Zelda games and for the most part, expanded on them. It was a refreshingly familiar and well-excecuted game, and I loved every minute of it, even on my second time through. It had almost everything I could hope for from a Zelda game, and I'd be hard pressed to come up with a good reason not to like it. Sure, it's not the most innovative Zelda game ever, but we already had that with Wind Waker or Okami. To me, it was about time for a return to form.
For me, as a long-time Zelda fan, Twilight Princess was one of the best gams I'd played in a very long time, and it still is today.
The order of the dungeons is pretty ridiculous. I said earlier for Nintendo to stick to tradition in names earlier. Strictly in names. How many times have the first three dungeons been forest, fire, and then water themed, in that order? Ocarina of Time had that order, Majora's Mask had it, Wind Waker had it... Oh, and A Link to the Past had it. Also Minish Cap, and now Twilight Princess and Phantom Hourglass both have it. Surely five times preceding is enough?
Again, you are doing what the other guy did - every Zelda does it, but now it's suddenly a problem in Twilight Princess. Argument doesn't stand.
I never said it wasn't a problem in other games, however. In A Link to the Past, it's new, therefore there is no real pattern, as such. In Ocarina of Time, the order is the same, but seeing as Ocarina is how a lot of people were introduced to Zelda, there isn't really any problem, like before. In Majora's Mask, the order is once again the same, and it's starting to get a little tiresome. At Wind Waker, the pattern's pretty boring, and once we get to Twilight Princess, the order is just dull and monotonous.
Next up, the characters. The best comparison is Majora's Mask. I realise this is similar to me comparing the vampires in Twilight to those in Dracula, but that's the idea. In Majora's Mask, you got to know the characters, you got a feel for them. You wanted to help Kafei and Anju get married successfully, you wanted to save the Skull Kid from the curse of the Mask, you wanted to help the monkey at Deku Palace, you wanted to avenge the spirits of Darmani and Mikau.
...And you want to help Midna return to the Twilight Realm. Just saying 'every other Zelda did this and it was good, Twilight Princess did this and it was bad' isn't really going to work as an argument.
I can't come up with an argument against wanting to get Midna back to the Twilight Realm, but I can say that you've brought up one example against five from Majora's Mask, from which there are plenty more, and several more from other games in the series.
Although it only applies to one version of the game, the Wii controls are awful. Most notably, the controls for fishing. They are worse than the controls for fishing as Big in Sonic Adventure DX on Gamecube (I haven't played the original, so I wouldn't know). They aren't explained, you can't check on them, and I seem to remember the fetch quest at the beginning of the game taking me almost three hours because I didn't know this. Even on my first playthrough of it, as my first 3D Zelda, and being about 7 at the time, Ocarina of Time's fetch quest at the beginning took me about half an hour.
Again, simply not true. The fishing 'controls' consist of selecting the fishing rod, which takes 2 seconds and is impossible to misunderstand, casting the rod, which is a single button press which the game displays on the screen, and then waiting for a fish to take your bobberfloat under the water and striking, which consists of moving your arm. It is a very simple process, and the fact that you, for some bizarre reason took 3 hours to complete this simple process is a reflection on you, not the game.
In a game which has fishing, firstly, I would expect some indication of the fish taking the bait, such as a rumble, or a noise. This goes alongside the bobber float go underwater. This does not happen in Twilight Princess, whereas it does in other games involving fishing (Ocarina of Time, Harvest Moon, Sonic Adventure, etc.) Secondly, if reeling does not happen instantly, I would expect to have to do it myself, via some sort of action. In the three examples I gave, you fight with the fish while to pull it towards you. Perhaps I disliked the controls because they were different to my previous experiences of fishing in games, but I know I'm not alone in disliking them.
Now for the big rant, the sidequests. I was told before that saying +1 to the message about there not being any sidequests was wrong, due to the comment being wrong. The comment I +1'd was not wrong, merely miswritten. I believe what NotEnoughGolds meant to write was "There are no good/fun sidequests." Hunting bugs compares to hunting skulltulas. Except skulltulas are visible without using a microscope, and there's no real loss if you don't get them.
Not to keep repeating myself, but your arguments consist of describing something in Twilight Princes which is the same as in every other Zelda, and suddenly claiming it's a problem. The sidequests are as good or fun as the sidequests in Windwaker, Ocarina, etc.
My argument is that doing the same stuff, when that stuff is worse, is boring.
Another sidequest is poe catching... What. The. F***. Seriously, couldn't they come up with something new?
Again, like this in every Zelda, suddenly in Twilight Princess it's a problem... same argument, still not valid.
Again, it's been used so many times, and is now just boring. Besides, it's worse now. In Ocarina of Time, there were ten big poes to catch. In Twilight Princess, there are 60. In Ocarina of Time, they are all available at the very start of the sidequest. In Twilight Princess, you can't finish until you have access to every inch of the Hyrule, including dungeons. In Twilight Princess, the poes could be anywhere, in Ocarina of Time, you know they're all on Hyrule field, it's just a matter of where. The end prize for collecting all the poes in Ocarina of Time is a bottle. To get the bottle in Twilight Princess, you need to do twice as much work. And what do you get for collecting all 60? Infinite money, which is completely useless in a Zelda game if you're already as far as you need to be to have all 60.
Why must the dungeon order be the same? Why must the core plot be the same? Why must the sidequests be the same? The bosses? The character names?
Well, that's Zelda, if you don't like it, don't play.
What do you do in Super Mario Bros? And Bros 3? And World? Pretty much the same thing.
And Mario 64? Sunshine? Galaxy? Pretty much the same thing. Bowser... Princess... mushrooms... jumping on things... coins... Koopas... if you don't like that, don't buy New Super Mario Bros Wii. No point in buying it, playing it, then complaining because it is what it is.
At least Bowser uses some variety in his plans, and where he uses them. Ganondorf is always the same: Take over Hyrule. My two favourite Zelda titles (Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask) don't follow this. Goombas, Koopas and Piranha Plants are all classic enemies in the same way that Stalfos, Moblins and Octoroks are, and should all be kept in the series, however in Mario, there is at least some originality in the variations. There's probably 20 types of Koopa Troopa and 12 types of Goomba, to 4 types of Octorok and 2 types of Moblin.
You may read this as a "don't bother with TP" post. I'm sure if you don't mind playing carbon copies of games, you'd enjoy it. But I'd say stick to the older games. Even if the graphics aren't as pretty, that's not what Zelda, Nintendo, or gaming as a whole is about.
Firstly, the older games, to use your argument, would be the same as Twilight Princess, and most people would find, say, Ocarina, to be Twilight Princess-lite, with clunky controls and bad graphics. No reason to stick to the older games if you don't like the series. If you don't like the series, play something else.
The older games, to use my argument, would be Twilight Princess, with a lower polygon count but more colour, and far better characters, story and sidequests, and more traditional controls. To my knowledge, people who played both versions of Twilight Princess preferred the Gamecube controls, which I believe are the same, if not very similar, to the Wind Waker's controls, which are the same as Ocarina of Time's and Majora's Mask's when played on a Gamecube pad. And D-pad control has been tried and tested, and proven great in most overhead-perspective games, Zelda or otherwise, from the NES era onwards. So the controls aren't clunky in the older games, either.
I have played almost all of the Zelda games through. Link's Awakening is my favorite. But TP? Well...
For me, the key moment in TP was after the first dungeon (IIRC) - where the game opens out into Hyrule Field, and the whole world stands before you. And the music strikes up, siring your emotions to fight the good fight...
And I just stared at it and thought... oh for f***s sake, not again.
I just couldn't do it any more. I put the game back in the box, and haven't touched it (or any other Zelda) since.
I never said it wasn't a problem in other games, however. In A Link to the Past, it's new, therefore there is no real pattern, as such. In Ocarina of Time, the order is the same, but seeing as Ocarina is how a lot of people were introduced to Zelda, there isn't really any problem, like before. In Majora's Mask, the order is once again the same, and it's starting to get a little tiresome. At Wind Waker, the pattern's pretty boring, and once we get to Twilight Princess, the order is just dull and monotonous.
Then don't play Zelda anymore. You should have realised now that since A Link To The Past, with perhaps the exception of Majora's Mask, each new Zelda is simply a re-telling of the same basic story.
In a game which has fishing, firstly, I would expect some indication of the fish taking the bait, such as a rumble, or a noise.
There is an indication - the float goes under the water, it really couldn't be more simple. There is no need for a rumble, a noise, or a giant purple arrow pointing at the float with the words OMFG DID YOU SEE THAT, YOUR FLOAT JUST WENT, LIKE, TOTALLY UNDER THE WATER DUDE, STRIKE, FOR THE LOVE OF JESUS, STRIKE MAN!!!!1!111!!!!!
The float goes under, you strike. Explain to me exactly what you found hard about this?
Perhaps I disliked the controls because they were different to my previous experiences of fishing in games, but I know I'm not alone in disliking them.
The fishing controls could not be more simple, you being or not being alone in not liking them doesn't change this.
Again, it's been used so many times, and is now just boring. Besides, it's worse now. In Ocarina of Time, there were ten big poes to catch. In Twilight Princess, there are 60.
So your argument is Twilight Princess is worse because it's got more... nope, that's not going to work.
In Twilight Princess, the poes could be anywhere, in Ocarina of Time, you know they're all on Hyrule field, it's just a matter of where.
Ah. So you want less poes and less places to look. Can't see why this is better.
At least Bowser uses some variety in his plans, and where he uses them.
Yeah... sometimes he kidnaps the Princess, and sometimes he... kidnaps the Princess. Regardless of this, the plot in a Mario game means nothing anyway. It's not about that.
Ganondorf is always the same: Take over Hyrule.
As I said, you don't seem to understand that the Zelda games are retellings of the same story, pretty much. If you are bored of this, don't play.
The older games, to use my argument, would be Twilight Princess, with a lower polygon count but more colour, and far better characters, story and sidequests, and more traditional controls.
It seems you are bored of Zelda, not Twilight Princess, as your reasons for not liking it do not hold on close inspection.
It seems you are bored of Zelda, not Twilight Princess, as your reasons for not liking it do not hold on close inspection.
Yeah, that seems to be the long and short of it for a lot of people - they're just sick of Zelda. Personally, I can't get enough of it, despite playing the games for over a decade.
Trin has become my new NintendoLife user I pray I never say anything rambling and stupid, for fear he would systematically dismantle my argument line by line. Good work man. If I knew how to seperate quotes like that I totally would've done the same thing
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I never said it wasn't a problem in other games, however. In A Link to the Past, it's new, therefore there is no real pattern, as such. In Ocarina of Time, the order is the same, but seeing as Ocarina is how a lot of people were introduced to Zelda, there isn't really any problem, like before. In Majora's Mask, the order is once again the same, and it's starting to get a little tiresome. At Wind Waker, the pattern's pretty boring, and once we get to Twilight Princess, the order is just dull and monotonous.
Then don't play Zelda anymore. You should have realised now that since A Link To The Past, with perhaps the exception of Majora's Mask, each new Zelda is simply a re-telling of the same basic story.
That may be true, but I generally like the gameplay of Zelda titles, and expect a fresh plot from Nintendo every now and then.
In a game which has fishing, firstly, I would expect some indication of the fish taking the bait, such as a rumble, or a noise.
There is an indication - the float goes under the water, it really couldn't be more simple. There is no need for a rumble, a noise, or a giant purple arrow pointing at the float with the words OMFG DID YOU SEE THAT, YOUR FLOAT JUST WENT, LIKE, TOTALLY UNDER THE WATER DUDE, STRIKE, FOR THE LOVE OF JESUS, STRIKE MAN!!!!1!111!!!!!
The float goes under, you strike. Explain to me exactly what you found hard about this?
You mean besides the fact that 4 times out of 5 when I "strike when the float goes under", it doesn't bring up a fish? As I said, in most games, the controller rumbles when a fish is hooked. In this game, the float goes under, and more often than not, a fish isn't actually hooked.
Perhaps I disliked the controls because they were different to my previous experiences of fishing in games, but I know I'm not alone in disliking them.
The fishing controls could not be more simple, you being or not being alone in not liking them doesn't change this.
I believe the original argument was "TP: Good or bad game"? If it is an unpopular aspect of a game, surely it's a problem, and needs changing? I for one would prefer to have to reel in the fish myself, or have it happen instantly. Not to have Link do it for me, as this is disorienting.
Again, it's been used so many times, and is now just boring. Besides, it's worse now. In Ocarina of Time, there were ten big poes to catch. In Twilight Princess, there are 60.
So your argument is Twilight Princess is worse because it's got more... nope, that's not going to work.
In Twilight Princess, the poes could be anywhere, in Ocarina of Time, you know they're all on Hyrule field, it's just a matter of where.
Ah. So you want less poes and less places to look. Can't see why this is better.
Collecting 10 poes in 4 batches is a fun sidetrack, but collecting 6 times as many is just a chore.
At least Bowser uses some variety in his plans, and where he uses them.
Yeah... sometimes he kidnaps the Princess, and sometimes he... kidnaps the Princess. Regardless of this, the plot in a Mario game means nothing anyway. It's not about that.
Sometimes he kidnaps the princess in her own castle, and sometimes he kidnaps the princess on her vacation. And sometimes, even in space. Ganondorf goes around Hyrule, trying to capture the princess every few hundred years, pretending he's trying something new each time. As you've said, the plot in each Zelda game is roughly the same, and the plot in Mario doesn't matter, but at least Mario's plots seem to have something new each time.
The older games, to use my argument, would be Twilight Princess, with a lower polygon count but more colour, and far better characters, story and sidequests, and more traditional controls.
It seems you are bored of Zelda, not Twilight Princess, as your reasons for not liking it do not hold on close inspection.
No, I'm bored of how Twilight Princess is more of the same. If I wanted to play Ocarina of Time, I'd play Ocarina of Time. I'd happily play that any day of the week. I'd be willing to play Okami, despite similarity between that and Twilight Princess, because from what I can make from what I've been told, it's effectively Twilight Princess' innovations done well, and less of a carbon copy of Ocarina of Time.
So yeah, I'm not bored of Zelda. I'd happily replay Link's Awakening or Wind Waker any time. In fact, I've been considering replaying the original game lately, or maybe Link's Awakening. It's Twilight Princess being a practical clone of Ocarina of Time, with a bunch of bad stuff mixed in, that I'm tired of.
You mean besides the fact that 4 times out of 5 when I "strike when the float goes under", it doesn't bring up a fish? As I said, in most games, the controller rumbles when a fish is hooked. In this game, the float goes under, and more often than not, a fish isn't actually hooked. I for one would prefer to have to reel in the fish myself, or have it happen instantly. Not to have Link do it for me, as this is disorienting.
Well, as in real fishing, you don't always get the fish when you strike. The game does give you various options, such as bait, and hook upgrades, all of which are there to increase the rate you can catch fish at. It is in no way disorientating to have Link reel the fish in himself... the fishing controls are fine, you can nitpick tiny details if you like, the fact remains, the controls work fine.
Collecting 10 poes in 4 batches is a fun sidetrack, but collecting 6 times as many is just a chore.
Don't do it then, it's a sidequest, the whole point is you can do it if you want, and not do it if you don't want.
Sometimes he kidnaps the princess in her own castle, and sometimes he kidnaps the princess on her vacation.
Haha. Big deal.
There hasn't been any real change in the core plot of Mario (Bowser kidnaps Princess, Mario rescues Princess) since 1986.
No, I'm bored of how Twilight Princess is more of the same.
Yes, but all Zelda games are more of the same, this is the point.
So yeah, I'm not bored of Zelda. I'd happily replay Link's Awakening or Wind Waker any time. In fact, I've been considering replaying the original game lately, or maybe Link's Awakening. It's Twilight Princess being a practical clone of Ocarina of Time, with a bunch of bad stuff mixed in, that I'm tired of.
Your reasons are so flimsy though. A slight problem wit how a fish is reeled in... suddenly expecting this Zelda to be completely different from the last, when that's not how Zelda works. The 'bad stuff' that is 'mixed in' as you put it is simply the same Zelda gameplay that has been around, in one form or another, since The Legend of Zelda on the NES, and in 3D form since Ocarina of Time.
I say again, if this is a problem now, don't play... that's what Zelda is.
Was not my favorite Zelda game, story was stale, but yet, I still found myself playing for 8 hours straight without realizing it completely immersed. It may get old, but even then it's still fun.
Hoping for a little extra innovation in the sequel though. That's usually what happens, the sequels have more creative stories.
Slash, those last few posts need to win some award for "longest post I will never read."
Anyway, to the OP, glad you're enjoying aLttP, I'm looking forward to playing it myself some day when I have time.
If you're sick of the same plot, why did you buy the game? Read a review for crying out loud! What did you expect? For the next Zelda game, however, it's pretty much a promise that it's going to be different...
RyuZebian, player of games, commentor of comments. Oh, and my 3DS Friend Code is 2148-8170-8035.
Yeah...Twilight Princess was always marketed as "more of the same, but better". It was the answer to all those who wanted Wind Waker to be more like Ocarina of time. If you had followed it at all, it would've been pretty easy to see long beforehand.
I'll admit, I'm happy to see a return to form every once and a while, I do hope the new Zelda will, indeed be different...or a new Four Swords games.
"Collecting 10 poes in 4 batches is a fun sidetrack, but collecting 6 times as many is just a chore." Thank you. Here's another example - heart containers Zelda - 5 secret heart containers for a yield of 5 additional hearts Zelda II - 4 secret heart containers for a yield of 4 additional life bars LttP - 24 secret heart pieces for a yield of 6 additional hearts OoT - 36 secret heart pieces for a yield of 9 additional hearts MM - 52 secret heart pieces for a yield of 13 additional hearts TP - 45 secret heart pieces for a yield of 9 additional hearts (omitted WW because it wasn't as easy to find the exact # of pieces)
Adding more stuff to collect for a lesser reward makes a task that was once fun, now tedious. As much as I loved Majora's Mask, I didn't love that there were fifty-two heart pieces. Collecting 60 poes or 32 (?) golden bugs for an unfulfilling reward makes the sidequest a chore rather than an enjoyable gameplay experience.
And repeating over and over again, "All Zelda's are like this, and now it's suddenly a problem in Twilight Princess?" as a rebuttal against everything doesn't cut it. There has been a lot of innovation in each and every console entry since the beginning of the series except for Twilight Princess. I already listed these innovations in a previous post and will not list them again. If you can't see how Wind Waker is different from Majora's Mask is different from Ocarina of Time is different from Link to the Past is different from Zelda II is different from Zelda, then... that's just a little strange.
"Collecting 10 poes in 4 batches is a fun sidetrack, but collecting 6 times as many is just a chore." Thank you. Here's another example - heart containers Zelda - 5 secret heart containers for a yield of 5 additional hearts Zelda II - 4 secret heart containers for a yield of 4 additional life bars LttP - 24 secret heart pieces for a yield of 6 additional hearts OoT - 36 secret heart pieces for a yield of 9 additional hearts MM - 52 secret heart pieces for a yield of 13 additional hearts TP - 45 secret heart pieces for a yield of 9 additional hearts (omitted WW because it wasn't as easy to find the exact # of pieces)
Adding more stuff to collect for a lesser reward makes a task that was once fun, now tedious. As much as I loved Majora's Mask, I didn't love that there were fifty-two heart pieces. Collecting 60 poes or 32 (?) golden bugs for an unfulfilling reward makes the sidequest a chore rather than an enjoyable gameplay experience.
Ah I see. You buy a Zelda game, then you complain because it has elements of gameplay that all Zelda games have. Gotta love that logic.
I mean, are you honestly reduced, in your attempts to find fault with Twilight Princess, to whining because there are 9 more heart pieces to find over Ocarina of Time?
And I say again - if you don't like it, don't do it. It's a sidequest. Just saying 'thank you' will not make this fact any less true.
I could tie you in knots by pointing out that firstly you complain that Twilight Princess isn't different enough... then you point out a tiny difference in the number of heart pieces, and complain.
I mean, listen, every man is entitled to his opinion, but at least think before you post.
And repeating over and over again, "All Zelda's are like this, and now it's suddenly a problem in Twilight Princess?" as a rebuttal against everything doesn't cut it.
I think you will find it wil more than 'cut it' when that is exactly what is happening. You've even started doing it yourself.
If you can't see how Wind Waker is different from Majora's Mask is different from Ocarina of Time is different from Link to the Past is different from Zelda II is different from Zelda, then... that's just a little strange.
Twilight Princess is a continuation of the Zelda series, and you complain about it, without really knowing why, it seems.
If you can't see how Wind Waker is different from Majora's Mask is different from Ocarina of Time is different from Link to the Past is different from Zelda II is different from Zelda, then... that's just a little strange.
Twilight Princess is a continuation of the Zelda series, and you complain about it, without really knowing why, it seems.
What? Your rebuttal to that last point doesn't even make sense. Zelda - first Zelda game. 'nuff said Zelda II - took some of the gameplay elements from the first one but changed so much. side-scrolling, leveling, etc. LttP - went back to Zelda's formula. But added a huge, colorful overworld, an actual story, brought it into 16-bit, added unique new bosses unlike anything we'd seen before, added a ton of items, tons and tons of new gameplay elements. Added some 3D-ish gameplay elements (iirc, at no point in Zelda I could you just jump off a cliff). Also multi-directional movement! OoT - More or less remade LttP, but in 3D. The move to 3D alone was enough to justify a new title. Majora's Mask - Wow. Transformations, masks, a time system, deep characters. Fantastic environments. You can't deny the beauty of snowhead. Windwaker - Cel-shaded Link. A massive ocean. Cute characters. Vivid/colorful environments. Fun mini-games (hide and seek, battleship, etc.). Pirates. Goofy voice clips. Each game has been incredibly different than all the rest preceding it. But Twilight Princess feels like Ocarina of Time with "MOAR!" attached to everything. Moar heart pieces. Moar poes. Moar heart pieces. Moar realistic graphics. But then, we have less carnival games, and I've always loved the carnival games .
To say that "Twilight Princess did this, but so did every other Zelda, so what's the problem?" is just silly. The relevant question is "what did Twilight Princess do that no other Zelda did?"
P.S. In before "invalid argument" and "none of what you just said makes any sense."
What? Your rebuttal to that last point doesn't even make sense.
It was a statement, stating that you do not seem to know why you are complaining, as your reasons for disliking the game were confused. It makes perfect sense.
Zelda - first Zelda game. 'nuff said Zelda II - took some of the gameplay elements from the first one but changed so much. side-scrolling, leveling, etc. LttP - went back to Zelda's formula. But added a huge, colorful overworld, an actual story, brought it into 16-bit, added unique new bosses unlike anything we'd seen before, added a ton of items, tons and tons of new gameplay elements. Added some 3D-ish gameplay elements (iirc, at no point in Zelda I could you just jump off a cliff). Also multi-directional movement! OoT - More or less remade LttP, but in 3D. The move to 3D alone was enough to justify a new title. Majora's Mask - Wow. Transformations, masks, a time system, deep characters. Fantastic environments. You can't deny the beauty of snowhead. Windwaker - Cel-shaded Link. A massive ocean. Cute characters. Vivid/colorful environments. Fun mini-games (hide and seek, battleship, etc.). Pirates. Goofy voice clips.
A Link To The Past is a retelling, pretty much, of the first game, with 16bit graphics, all games since then have been a retelling of the basic elements of A Link To The Past, updated for the system they are on, with the exception of Majora's. Twilight Princess isn't as different from the WindWaker as WindWaker was from Ocarina, granted, but it is a variation on the same basic story and the same basic gameplay as all Zelda games are to some extent.
But Twilight Princess feels like Ocarina of Time with "MOAR!" attached to everything. Moar heart pieces. Moar poes. Moar heart pieces. Moar realistic graphics.
Yes, that's what happens. Hyrule Field in Twilight Princess is far bigger, far more detailed, far more sophisticated that it's counterpart in Ocarina. Well done for noticing.
To say that "Twilight Princess did this, but so did every other Zelda, so what's the problem?" is just silly.
No, your laughable attempts at finding fault with the game, with arguments such as 'it has 9 more heart pieces than Ocarina of Time and this is a bad thing' are just silly.
The relevant question is "what did Twilight Princess do that no other Zelda did?"
It created a bigger, more detailed, more realistic, more sophisticated world. It, perhaps, doesn't have a 'thing', such as the great sea in WindWaker, but it sticks to the Zelda traditions of retelling the same basic plot elements, bigger and better.
P.S. In before "invalid argument" and "none of what you just said makes any sense."
You seem to think that you can make my statements less true, by pointing out that I have already made them previously. This is incorrect.
I think, we will have to agree to disagree, as we will keep go back and forward with this.
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