o-o ok im gona do my best to keep this short. (clearly ive failed)
1. i'll start by talking about my feelings on topics like these .... i hate topics like these .-. especialy when its being taken seriously cus to me when hear someone say "hey this character should be a diferent gender!" the reason always seems to be "because they can make this character a diferent gender if they want to!" and the answers that arent that end up being this "because this character is a strong male! so if we made him a girl the character would be a strong female!" ... no... no the character wouldnt. you dont just change a characters gender for the sake of just changing a characters gender, and you definantly dont change a characters gender cus you think its suddenly gona be empowering for females because the characters already been developed as a strong character.. .-. if any company ever wants to make a strong female character good for them, but rather than adding a bigger chest, slightly altered hair, and slightly altered eyes on a male characters body, maby ... just maby, they could make new character thats a strong female! -.-
2. .-. everyone else seems to be bringing up other games and there female characters as well so mine as well go through two that seem to be poping up a lot. with that said, lets talk about princess peach and more importantly her role in the mario games. ok shes a princess, and she gets captured by bowser, and she gets rescued .... princess peach everybody. .-. ok so yea calling peach a weak female character or a bad female character is .... admitedly kinda apropriate .-. and i really do think nintendo should make some sorta change to that problem, but at the same time i kinda see why it isnt changed yet. ok so as far as im concerned marios story is basicaly an excuse. an excuse to just go through 8 crazy worlds and get strange power ups and step on turtles. i meen when you think about it all stories are basicaly excuses for a character to do something .-. marios is just way more basic, and really why change your excuse if its works out so well. with games like zelda and metroid, there was some small factors that lead them up to start telling much bigger stories. mario .... nothing was really set up for him to have any big stories, so it kinda makes sense that peach doesnt evolve from the damsle in the distress role, because her role of needing to be saved is just kinda necasary for this excuse. ... i oculd forgive this really .-. if it wasnt for smash bros (and a few other games as well but due to limited time i just jumped on the one that made its biggest impact) ... to avoid keeping this from going on any longer since i still got one or two more things to add in this post i'll just leave it at this - .-. one of her attacks uses a frying pan and one of her stronger attacks is her buns .... nuff said.
3. samus.... why is she considered a bad female character by so many? and on that note why is she considered a strong female character by so many? .... seriously as far as im concerned theres only been 2 things that work towards these points .-. actualy one shouldnt really count so much these days cus it has the "product of its time" disease, so really only one reason that leans towards the bad female character. but even then that argument always seems to just break down to "she took orders!" ok heres my problem with that. she took orders in fusion .-. it wasnt a big deal then and i think the only reason its a big deal now is because its an actual guy and not a computer. so yea i dont think shes a bad female character ... but like i said earlier i dont think shes really a strong female character either. cus the one reason towards that is the one i said doesnt really count much these days which was her first game, and being revealed to be a woman at the end. it was kinda big back then for obvious but now that samus is more well known ... this scene doesnt exactly hold as important a point as it once did. so with that point being sorta shot down, the only other argument i hear for her being a strong female character is this "she has an arm cannon and she shots aliens!" .... do i need to explain why that doesnt work? and with that arm cannon thing said ... thats basicaly the character of samus, a girl with an arm cannon. this character couldve been made a man at the begining and most likely the only main changes would be the stuff involving adam, and maby some stuff with mother brain and ridley. heck it couldve just been a genderless robot .-. the story would still most likely just recieve major changes with the stuff involving adam and once again maby mother brain and ridley. know what ... anyone whos actualy decided to read all the way to this point, and your either like "samus is a strong female!" or "samus is a weak female!" explain something to me.... why... why do you feel the way you? if its pretty much anything i mentioned in my little discusion on samus though then dont even bother.
um ... ok i think thats about it, sorry if this comes out incredibly long and sorry for all the typos that im pretty sure will be in this cus they always seem to show up during my longer posts
Hey! I got a new idea, how about we agure about something else, this topic bores me.
Atless this thread isn't about Luigi in a dress.
For you, the day LordJumpMad graced your threads, was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday. [url=http://www.backloggery.com/jumpmad]Unive...
Hey! I got a new idea, how about we agure about something else, this topic bores me.
Atless this thread isn't about Luigi in a dress.
It was about Luigi in a dress some pages ago.
I haven't really been following this thread, didn't think it would be the type of thread that would get out of hand, but it did.
I admit that I am a bit jealous. So many mad users, and it wasn't done by me...I think now is time to retire to the old troll home., which I heard was pretty nice.
I hope everyone comes to vist, and play some u mad bingo u_u
For you, the day LordJumpMad graced your threads, was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday. [url=http://www.backloggery.com/jumpmad]Unive...
Hey! I got a new idea, how about we agure about something else, this topic bores me.
Atless this thread isn't about Luigi in a dress.
It was about Luigi in a dress some pages ago.
I haven't really been following this thread, didn't think it would be the type of thread that would get out of hand, but it did.
I admit that I am a bit jealous. So many mad users, and it wasn't done by me...I think now is time to retire to the old troll home., which I heard was pretty nice.
I hope everyone comes to visit, and play some u mad bingo u_u
Yeah, this whole thread has turned to Waltz vs. The World debate and, since it's obviously not going to end anytime soon and it hasn't even got anything to do with the original topic, this thread might as well be locked IMO. Waltz sure knows how to piss off people.
Currently on the plate:
Mount and Blade: Warband – Napoleonic Wars
Chivalry
Super Mario 3D World – Finishing the last few levels.
Mario Kart 8
o-o ok im gona do my best to keep this short. (clearly ive failed)
1. i'll start by talking about my feelings on topics like these .... i hate topics like these .-. especialy when its being taken seriously cus to me when hear someone say "hey this character should be a diferent gender!" the reason always seems to be "because they can make this character a diferent gender if they want to!" and the answers that arent that end up being this "because this character is a strong male! so if we made him a girl the character would be a strong female!" ... no... no the character wouldnt. you dont just change a characters gender for the sake of just changing a characters gender, and you definantly dont change a characters gender cus you think its suddenly gona be empowering for females because the characters already been developed as a strong character.. .-. if any company ever wants to make a strong female character good for them, but rather than adding a bigger chest, slightly altered hair, and slightly altered eyes on a male characters body, maby ... just maby, they could make new character thats a strong female! -.-
2. .-. everyone else seems to be bringing up other games and there female characters as well so mine as well go through two that seem to be poping up a lot. with that said, lets talk about princess peach and more importantly her role in the mario games. ok shes a princess, and she gets captured by bowser, and she gets rescued .... princess peach everybody. .-. ok so yea calling peach a weak female character or a bad female character is .... admitedly kinda apropriate .-. and i really do think nintendo should make some sorta change to that problem, but at the same time i kinda see why it isnt changed yet. ok so as far as im concerned marios story is basicaly an excuse. an excuse to just go through 8 crazy worlds and get strange power ups and step on turtles. i meen when you think about it all stories are basicaly excuses for a character to do something .-. marios is just way more basic, and really why change your excuse if its works out so well. with games like zelda and metroid, there was some small factors that lead them up to start telling much bigger stories. mario .... nothing was really set up for him to have any big stories, so it kinda makes sense that peach doesnt evolve from the damsle in the distress role, because her role of needing to be saved is just kinda necasary for this excuse. ... i oculd forgive this really .-. if it wasnt for smash bros (and a few other games as well but due to limited time i just jumped on the one that made its biggest impact) ... to avoid keeping this from going on any longer since i still got one or two more things to add in this post i'll just leave it at this - .-. one of her attacks uses a frying pan and one of her stronger attacks is her buns .... nuff said.
3. samus.... why is she considered a bad female character by so many? and on that note why is she considered a strong female character by so many? .... seriously as far as im concerned theres only been 2 things that work towards these points .-. actualy one shouldnt really count so much these days cus it has the "product of its time" disease, so really only one reason that leans towards the bad female character. but even then that argument always seems to just break down to "she took orders!" ok heres my problem with that. she took orders in fusion .-. it wasnt a big deal then and i think the only reason its a big deal now is because its an actual guy and not a computer. so yea i dont think shes a bad female character ... but like i said earlier i dont think shes really a strong female character either. cus the one reason towards that is the one i said doesnt really count much these days which was her first game, and being revealed to be a woman at the end. it was kinda big back then for obvious but now that samus is more well known ... this scene doesnt exactly hold as important a point as it once did. so with that point being sorta shot down, the only other argument i hear for her being a strong female character is this "she has an arm cannon and she shots aliens!" .... do i need to explain why that doesnt work? and with that arm cannon thing said ... thats basicaly the character of samus, a girl with an arm cannon. this character couldve been made a man at the begining and most likely the only main changes would be the stuff involving adam, and maby some stuff with mother brain and ridley. heck it couldve just been a genderless robot .-. the story would still most likely just recieve major changes with the stuff involving adam and once again maby mother brain and ridley. know what ... anyone whos actualy decided to read all the way to this point, and your either like "samus is a strong female!" or "samus is a weak female!" explain something to me.... why... why do you feel the way you? if its pretty much anything i mentioned in my little discusion on samus though then dont even bother.
um ... ok i think thats about it, sorry if this comes out incredibly long and sorry for all the typos that im pretty sure will be in this cus they always seem to show up during my longer posts
Going to sleep now though. Just wanted to throw some logs in the cabin.
Just out of interest, which side are you actually on here?
Because the last to screenshots you've posted are perfect examples of the points I'm making - using a line or two of text to say "I'm the submissive woman type, but it's OK for me to be that way because the story says I need to," hardly positions Samus as a character with any real power or independent thought.
Contrast to Ripley from the Alien films. There was a woman who had powerful maternal instincts and other positive womanly traits, and yet she also disobeyed orders whenever it suited her to be the hero, was a leader rather than a follower, and demonstratively intelligent. It saddens me when people try and compare the two characters, because Ripley is a feminist icon, but Samus is anything but.
Okay, this picture sums up my opinion of why Samus was done wrong in Other M. She clearly stated in Fusion that she dislikes taking orders, and did so willinging in Other M despite the fact that she had left the Galactic Federation Army and had no professional obligation to do so. Also, the screen is cut off here, but the statement ends "this is the second time I've found myself having to do so." So, what? Did she not find herself having to take orders during her actual service in the Army? Cause she took orders in Other M and in Fusion she said it was only the second time she's ever had to take orders. Also, if I were to bring up another screenshot I could show that Adam's character was wrong as well, as in one game he was clearly against using biological weapons (metroids), and in the other he was all for it.
Hey! I got a new idea, how about we agure about something else, this topic bores me.
Atless this thread isn't about Luigi in a dress.
It was about Luigi in a dress some pages ago.
I haven't really been following this thread, didn't think it would be the type of thread that would get out of hand, but it did.
I admit that I am a bit jealous. So many mad users, and it wasn't done by me...I think now is time to retire to the old troll home., which I heard was pretty nice.
I hope everyone comes to vist, and play some u mad bingo u_u
Don't worry JumpMad, you're still our resident mad troll .
o-o ok im gona do my best to keep this short. (clearly ive failed)
1. i'll start by talking about my feelings on topics like these .... i hate topics like these .-. especialy when its being taken seriously cus to me when hear someone say "hey this character should be a diferent gender!" the reason always seems to be "because they can make this character a diferent gender if they want to!" and the answers that arent that end up being this "because this character is a strong male! so if we made him a girl the character would be a strong female!" ... no... no the character wouldnt. you dont just change a characters gender for the sake of just changing a characters gender, and you definantly dont change a characters gender cus you think its suddenly gona be empowering for females because the characters already been developed as a strong character.. .-. if any company ever wants to make a strong female character good for them, but rather than adding a bigger chest, slightly altered hair, and slightly altered eyes on a male characters body, maby ... just maby, they could make new character thats a strong female! -.-
2. .-. everyone else seems to be bringing up other games and there female characters as well so mine as well go through two that seem to be poping up a lot. with that said, lets talk about princess peach and more importantly her role in the mario games. ok shes a princess, and she gets captured by bowser, and she gets rescued .... princess peach everybody. .-. ok so yea calling peach a weak female character or a bad female character is .... admitedly kinda apropriate .-. and i really do think nintendo should make some sorta change to that problem, but at the same time i kinda see why it isnt changed yet. ok so as far as im concerned marios story is basicaly an excuse. an excuse to just go through 8 crazy worlds and get strange power ups and step on turtles. i meen when you think about it all stories are basicaly excuses for a character to do something .-. marios is just way more basic, and really why change your excuse if its works out so well. with games like zelda and metroid, there was some small factors that lead them up to start telling much bigger stories. mario .... nothing was really set up for him to have any big stories, so it kinda makes sense that peach doesnt evolve from the damsle in the distress role, because her role of needing to be saved is just kinda necasary for this excuse. ... i oculd forgive this really .-. if it wasnt for smash bros (and a few other games as well but due to limited time i just jumped on the one that made its biggest impact) ... to avoid keeping this from going on any longer since i still got one or two more things to add in this post i'll just leave it at this - .-. one of her attacks uses a frying pan and one of her stronger attacks is her buns .... nuff said.
3. samus.... why is she considered a bad female character by so many? and on that note why is she considered a strong female character by so many? .... seriously as far as im concerned theres only been 2 things that work towards these points .-. actualy one shouldnt really count so much these days cus it has the "product of its time" disease, so really only one reason that leans towards the bad female character. but even then that argument always seems to just break down to "she took orders!" ok heres my problem with that. she took orders in fusion .-. it wasnt a big deal then and i think the only reason its a big deal now is because its an actual guy and not a computer. so yea i dont think shes a bad female character ... but like i said earlier i dont think shes really a strong female character either. cus the one reason towards that is the one i said doesnt really count much these days which was her first game, and being revealed to be a woman at the end. it was kinda big back then for obvious but now that samus is more well known ... this scene doesnt exactly hold as important a point as it once did. so with that point being sorta shot down, the only other argument i hear for her being a strong female character is this "she has an arm cannon and she shots aliens!" .... do i need to explain why that doesnt work? and with that arm cannon thing said ... thats basicaly the character of samus, a girl with an arm cannon. this character couldve been made a man at the begining and most likely the only main changes would be the stuff involving adam, and maby some stuff with mother brain and ridley. heck it couldve just been a genderless robot .-. the story would still most likely just recieve major changes with the stuff involving adam and once again maby mother brain and ridley. know what ... anyone whos actualy decided to read all the way to this point, and your either like "samus is a strong female!" or "samus is a weak female!" explain something to me.... why... why do you feel the way you? if its pretty much anything i mentioned in my little discusion on samus though then dont even bother.
um ... ok i think thats about it, sorry if this comes out incredibly long and sorry for all the typos that im pretty sure will be in this cus they always seem to show up during my longer posts
Going to sleep now though. Just wanted to throw some logs in the cabin.
Just out of interest, which side are you actually on here?
Because the last to screenshots you've posted are perfect examples of the points I'm making - using a line or two of text to say "I'm the submissive woman type, but it's OK for me to be that way because the story says I need to," hardly positions Samus as a character with any real power or independent thought.
Contrast to Ripley from the Alien films. There was a woman who had powerful maternal instincts and other positive womanly traits, and yet she also disobeyed orders whenever it suited her to be the hero, was a leader rather than a follower, and demonstratively intelligent. It saddens me when people try and compare the two characters, because Ripley is a feminist icon, but Samus is anything but.
Okay, this picture sums up my opinion of why Samus was done wrong in Other M. She clearly stated in Fusion that she dislikes taking orders, and did so willinging in Other M despite the fact that she had left the Galactic Federation Army and had no professional obligation to do so. Also, the screen is cut off here, but the statement ends "this is the second time I've found myself having to do so." So, what? Did she not find herself having to take orders during her actual service in the Army? Cause she took orders in Other M and in Fusion she said it was only the second time she's ever had to take orders. Also, if I were to bring up another screenshot I could show that Adam's character was wrong as well, as in one game he was clearly against using biological weapons (metroids), and in the other he was all for it.
People change, desu~ ^__^ ♥
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Because you seemed to think that when I say "Samus is a man" you think I'm being literal.
She's a male character. Having a couple of digital polygons in the chest and long hair doesn't magically make her a she. The characterisation is male. If the film industry has discovered ways to create strong female characters that are still recognisably female, I see no reason that the games industry can't do the same.
This discussion is going to all kinds of silly places, as is usual when you've got people without any learning in gender studies trying to argue the topic. It reminds me of the time that I had an argument with a dude that thought that a chainmail bikini on a female barbarian in a RPG is totally appropriate and feminist because the female is a "strong character."
How do you figuratively be a man? I don't see how she's masculine.
She's a female character. Nintendo never said she was a male. If anything, Nintendo was pointing out how stupid people are for assuming that Samus was a man. At least, that's how I thought of it back when I was a kid and beat Metroid.
There's no winning with you. If they make the female too much of a stereotypical female then you call it sexist. If they don't make her enough like a stereotypical female then you call that sexist. When it comes to movies, it's a lot easier to convey the characteristics of the character. When it comes to a video game, it depends more on your own perception. Whatever the game doesn't tell you, you fill in with your own thoughts. You want the games to be sexist, so they are. To people who don't want the game to be sexist, it's not.
It doesn't help your case when you resort to condescending to others to try to prove your point. Being condescending doesn't actually make you better than anyone else.
As far as attire for women, it's just a fact that sex sells. Every industry is guilty of it.
Basically what I'm saying is that it shouldn't matter who the avatar we are controlling is.
Then Nintendo should never have revealed her.
Samus could have stayed as a genderless character who kicks butt, but they revealed her a female and failed to do anything with it from there onwards.
What if that was the point? You don't see Master Chief or the gun in Call of Duty exploding from a surplus of manly emotions because just they're male.
Plus the demand of that from a 1987 perspective is unnecessary.
Just for you. "I'm just a musical prostitute, my dear." - Freddie Mercury
Because you seemed to think that when I say "Samus is a man" you think I'm being literal.
She's a male character. Having a couple of digital polygons in the chest and long hair doesn't magically make her a she. The characterisation is male. If the film industry has discovered ways to create strong female characters that are still recognisably female, I see no reason that the games industry can't do the same.
This discussion is going to all kinds of silly places, as is usual when you've got people without any learning in gender studies trying to argue the topic. It reminds me of the time that I had an argument with a dude that thought that a chainmail bikini on a female barbarian in a RPG is totally appropriate and feminist because the female is a "strong character."
How do you figuratively be a man? I don't see how she's masculine.
She's a female character. Nintendo never said she was a male. If anything, Nintendo was pointing out how stupid people are for assuming that Samus was a man. At least, that's how I thought of it back when I was a kid and beat Metroid.
There's no winning with you. If they make the female too much of a stereotypical female then you call it sexist. If they don't make her enough like a stereotypical female then you call that sexist. When it comes to movies, it's a lot easier to convey the characteristics of the character. When it comes to a video game, it depends more on your own perception. Whatever the game doesn't tell you, you fill in with your own thoughts. You want the games to be sexist, so they are. To people who don't want the game to be sexist, it's not.
It doesn't help your case when you resort to condescending to others to try to prove your point. Being condescending doesn't actually make you better than anyone else.
As far as attire for women, it's just a fact that sex sells. Every industry is guilty of it.
Nintendo quite specifically called Samus a male in the instruction manual to the first game. Clearly you didn't read the post where Navi copy/ pasted that.
Also just because every industry is guilty of it doesn't make it OK. In fact, in this very tread (if you had bothered to read the serious conversation from a few pages back) you would have seen that I took a crack at the film industry for objectifying women in The Avengers movie. "Sex sells" is a horribly cynical way of pulling in eyeballs, and I can only hope that we as a global culture get to the point where we educate kids enough that they don't just accept this and pretend it's not a problem. The last 18 pages of this thread proves there is a long, long way to go with that dream though.
And no, there is "winning" with me (not sure how I became the sole spokesperson for the feminist movement, but thanks I guess). A freaking cheerleader character "won" with me. It is clearly not that hard for a corporation to come up with a genuinely empowered female character without pretending she's a man first and dressing her up like a man.
The problem here, and none of you seem to get this - the Japanese society doesn't have the same interest in gender studies that we have in the west. In fact, the old way, where women are the housekeepers and men are the breadwinners? That is still a cultural trait in Japan.
It amazes me that I had to be the one to come up with this "defense" for sexism in Japanese games - this is one of the less pleasant culture quirks in Japan. But there you go. I just gave you the first genuine counter to my argument in this thread so far.
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