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Topic: Disappointed by the lack of new exclusives

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JaxonH

@NEStalgia
I'm not evangelizing anything. I'm trying to explain your arbitrary definitions don't apply for everyone. And the market matters. When you make a claim a game isn't big enough to be full price, that claim can be tested, and it will be. Market says otherwise. And the market is the gamers. Ergo, gamers say otherwise. So the claim is refuted if you're trying to apply it to anyone beyond yourself.

But you didn't say that, you asked them if they really thought, as if, because you think otherwise, that needs to apply to them, questioning how they could possibly come to any other conclusion than your own.

And nobody's asking you to do anything or trying to change your opinions, only clarifying that applying your arbitrary thresholds and personal opinions as matter of fact statements for everyone doesn't fly.

And yes, the responsibility of Other M does lie at Sakaguchi's feet. It's not about "credit". They can share credit and share blame. That's fine. But it's his game, and he is Nintendo.

Edited on by JaxonH

PLAYING
NS: Shin Megami Tensei V, MH Rise
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NS: MH Rise Sunbreak, Bayonetta 3, Splatoon 3, Triangle Strategy, Zelda BotW 2, Metroid Prime 4

Jesus is Lord.

NEStalgia

@JaxonH Again, this is a fan site not a business site. Just because a good marketing engine can convince people to buy a product that is a poor value proposition is doesn't make it a good value proposition. It makes it a talented marketing team. Nor is it a mutually exclusive proposition that people who pay the money don't think it's a poor value proposition. As I said, and as you know, I'm one of those that did pay the money. In a sense you're using myself as "proof" that my argument is wrong. No, I paid, I'm willing to, this time, but I also know it's a bad deal, and I also know I won't be willing to do that forever for what is received. And I'm sure I'm not the only one among the market with that viewpoint. I reiterate, that "well it sold well!" isn't a valid argument against criticism of the product's value. It indicates successful marketing, it indicates tolerance, it indicates demand, it even indicates good business acumen, but it doesn't invalidate the criticism.

It's not unique to Nintendo, it's all platforms, of course, but it gets tiring from all the communities seeing the notion that company X is beyond criticism, and anyone that dare criticizes the perfect platform holder is instantly set upon to debunk them. The arguments always come back to "well that's just your wrong opinion!" and "well the market bought it so it must be all ok!" Not calling you personally out on that, I know that's not really your thing. But I see it here, I see it at PS, I see it to a lesser degree at PXB. Maybe it comes from knee jerk defensiveness to trolls that try to do the "my platform is better than yours" thing. But that's not what I'm saying here, and countering that mentality becomes exhausting.

Bolt maybe doesn't have a frame of reference for comparison which could explain that limited view, perhaps. But I know that doesn't apply to you, and when you look at games with the scope of games like Dread, and then you look at the scope of games from other companies, other platform holders, and even Nintendo's own past and current catalogue, only in gaming could anyone really come up with an argument for how it's worth the same price or equal footing. I mostly liked Dread. It's flawed. It's very good, but flawed, small, and feels like content is cut (and then we found out content WAS cut.) I like it. I paid too much for it. I knew I was going to pay too much for it before I bought it because I'm a sucker for a series I liked 30some years ago and haven't seen in ages. I enjoyed my time with it a lot. For like a week or two. But it was rapidly replaced by SMTV as my running game the moment it came out and I doubt I'll go back to it. It's not about production value, it's about scope. The game had a good foundation, but an extremely small scope. I think of what it COULD have been with the same 2.5D 3DS-esque presentation but a much bigger scope and that could have been amazing. Worthy of being a true home console scope game. But instead they mostly went with the same scope of a GBA game, once again. Because they knew they could and the market would say it's fine. Because good marketing and fan loyalty goes far and permits this. I think there's a place for these polished "indie" sized games, and I'd like to see many more of them. But when other platforms have that kind of content, they sell it at reduced prices, they make it digital discount games. Kena, Stray, etc on PS. Gears Tactics, Ori, etc. on MS. For Nintendo they put the marketing engine behind it and upsell it as premium. And it's not even sold as supplementary smaller content to their bigger titles, they're the main stage! No other company could get away with that, because it's largely based on marketing, nostalgia, and brand awareness rather than the actual product. That's not okay even if I'm encouraging it with my sale, for the time being. And "people bit down hard and took it" doesn't excuse it even if it means they can keep doing it. It doesn't supplant criticism.

Edit: And what I said about scope on Dread is a summary of my total complaint bout Nintendo's output of late. That's my whole point really. If you want to give all credit to Sakaguchi, fine. Sakaguchi clearly didn't set out to make the biggest best Metroid game he could produce with the budget allotted to make a classic that would stand as an example to other games for decades to come. That's what he did with Super, Fusion, etc. But not this time. It was clearly designed as a product to fit a market exactly, and trimmed until the tightest budget could product the ROI expected. And not a single shinespark more. He made a good game, but it's definitely not the best game he could have made. It didn't create a new legacy for the series or the genre. It's just "a pretty good game" that can hit the right financials. The passion is gone. It's just a manufactured product now.

Edited on by NEStalgia

NEStalgia

MrHonest

Man one heck of an thread. Anyway Nintendo as a developer has been underwhelming this gen. Lately it feels like they have bowed out from developing games and went full “let’s port everything to switch and sell it for maximum prices.” Or outsourcing their ips to make underwhelming Mario spin-offs.

My personal opinion of course.

Edited on by MrHonest

MrHonest

JaxonH

@NEStalgia
You're not following. Nobody's talking about "business". I'm referring to gamers.

You can't make a claim that "this game isn't big enough to warrant full price" and then handwaive any evidence to the contrary. Gamers say otherwise. It's as simple as that. You're free to voice your personal opinions, but again, you questioned them as if their different opinion was somehow "wrong" because it didn't align with your own, as if your conclusions are somehow objective. The only true measurement to test a claim that a game isn't big enough to warrant a price, is see if ppl are paying that price. If they're not, then it could be true (or maybe it's some other reason). But if they are, then it's absolutely not true.

And there's nothing wrong with Dread or it's scope. It's an amazing game and everything I could hope for in a 2D sequel. Graphically, design wise, gameplay wise, content wise. Far better game for $60 than most of the AAA stuff I've played, which aren't nearly as fun.

If your only bellwether of value is the number of MB in the file size and budget behind it, hey, you do you. But you only speak for yourself.

PLAYING
NS: Shin Megami Tensei V, MH Rise
3DS:
Steam: Forza Horizon 5
PS5:
MOST EXCITED FOR
NS: MH Rise Sunbreak, Bayonetta 3, Splatoon 3, Triangle Strategy, Zelda BotW 2, Metroid Prime 4

Jesus is Lord.

SwitchForce

@MrHonest All developers do this and isn't limited to Nintendo. They publish their own IP and publish others onto the Cart and get a cut from it. That's how you keep your business alive. If you think Switch Cart games are expensive try Cloud and paying to keep that going month to month. Your the loser on this plan. Odd someone would say outsource when others just make similar games but isn't a IP outsource let's not go that rabbit hole shall we. Nintendo got plenty of their own past consoles games they could port or remaster to Switch without someone else doing it. Your not being really honest here.

Edited on by SwitchForce

SwitchForce

Anti-Matter

@NEStalgia
I have one thing to say: "I enjoy the current release games, 1st party / 3rd party / exclusives, whatever."
Be granted with the current release.

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faint

@NEStalgia Opinions are opinions. That doesn’t change the fact that Covid really messed up development cycles for all major publishers. Seems like Nintendo is doing ok to me. Sony only released 5 first party titles this year. 1 is a game plus dlc exclusive that’s also going to the PC and another is a two game bundle of ps4 titles.

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MrHonest

@SwitchForce And where did i say Nintendo was the only one doing that? Yes i was being honest on Nintendo being underwhelming this gen.

MrHonest

Bolt_Strike

@NEStalgia I would prefer more open experience, but I am also fine with anything of a satisfying size and length that has creative gameplay mechanics. And the size and length of games like Pokemon SwSh/Legends Arceus, LM3, Dread, and Crafted World feel long enough. I can't quite explain why because it's partly a subjective feeling not based in logic or reason, but they just feel enough for me.

The difference between Nintendo and someone like Disney is that video games are Nintendo's primary market whereas Disney is focused on movies. Because of that, it's much easier to compare another developers style to Nintendo's development style and see the similarities between the two, and as a result it's easier to predict if the final game is characteristic of how Nintendo would make the game if they developed it internally. Many of the "second party" studios, Retro, NLG, Monolith, Intelligent Systems, etc. have these similar qualities to Nintendo hence why many people accept them as Nintendo games and don't really distinguish them between the two.

Regarding the "big" games on other consoles you mentioned, they're all third parties. You didn't list a single game from Microsoft and Sony's studios, and of course there's going to be much more of them coming from the third parties than there are coming from Nintendo because that's a much wider net to cast. It would only be fair to compare Nintendo's first party output with Microsoft and Sony's first party output.

Lastly, you still haven't addressed any of the complaints I've brought up with what criteria you're using to distinguish "big"/"A tier" games from "small"/"B tier" games or what criteria you're using to label something an "HD 3DS game". Nor have you addressed the comparison I did between the Wii U and Switch lineups based on how you've evaluated the Switch lineups and how the Wii U would have less than half of the "big" games the Switch would have. If you're going to claim this problem originated with the Switch as opposed to the Wii U or even the Wii (which I find much more likely), you need to explain this a little more.

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

NEStalgia

@JaxonH You know. I like you. I really do. But you you love to defend everything Nintendo with an infuriating passion sometimes I want to smack you

You are talking business. You're literally saying sales dictates if a game is worth a price. That's very directly talking business. Again, I say just because for reasons people bought at thing, good marketing, pent up demand, etc. etc. etc. does not mean that thing is truly worth that price when compared to other things. Is Dread objectively worth as much as Skyrim, or HzD, or AC:V or whatever? Absolutely not, it's a tiny game with a miniscule scope, miniscule budget, etc. It's a GBA game at heart and at size with updated visuals. Does that mean it's not fun or engaging? No. Does that mean the market won't pay too much for it because they value the Metroid brand, or because it was well marketed, or because they're captive in Switch's ecosystem? Sure they will. I'm among them. And a copy of SMB3 in a box isn't objectively worth $1.something million bucks, but someone out there is paying it.

You're very much equating business with value, and the argument that if people pay it that's the value, is a business argument, not a critical argument.

Again, I'm not talking budget or file size, I'm talking game scope. The size of the world, the environment, the content within the game. Dread is small. And 2/3 of the way through it mostly becomes a sequence of boss fights and the meat and potatoes of Metroid,the world exploration/puzzle takes a back seat. You can't argue away from that because it is what it is, factually. Imagine a vast 2D metroid world befitting spending weeks exploring the labyrinth? We COULD have had that. That's the game they could have made. But it's not the one they made. It has nothing to do with mb or budget other than that it would take more than a low-budget to do. We're not talking $100m Sony moviegames here, we're talking about a much more sizable Metroid planet than a GBA could hold. I don't think that's a big ask of Nintendo in 2021. "Do the same thing but in bigger worlds' shouldn't really be to tall an order for the company's second HD console. Not when the rest of the industry has been building bigger more intricate worlds for 15+ years, and games the size of Dread are considered indie games at a lower price point to reflect their smaller scopes. None of that is a big ask, or out of line with what one expects in this industry. One doesn't go to McDonalds and expect to pay the same price for a burger as Five Guys, even if what you really crave right now is just a big mac..

NEStalgia

Ralizah

@NEStalgia Can you actually define what constitutes a "big" game? Because, from where I'm sitting, it very much feels like a totally arbitrary judgment you're using to demean everything that isn't a big-budget action-adventure or RPG title.

I wouldn't have pegged you as the sort of person to advance a "only big-budget blockbusters count" sort of position.

Currently Playing
Shin Megami Tensei V (NS)

JaxonH

@NEStalgia
I'm not "defending" anything. I'm telling you your subjective opinions aren't facts for everyone.

And as much as you claim "I love to defend" that's a cheap cop out to side step the argument. It's basically saying, "I can't argue the point by merit, so I'll just attack your credibility instead".

You've seen others do it so you think you can exploit it as a weakness also. It's become the default talking point for anyone making a claim to marginalize valid critiques of their view.

I'm done tolerating that kind of childish nonsense. If you want to have a conversation like an adult, we can do that. If you're going to try to discredit me instead of my argument, I'm done talking to you. I've lost my patience for that kinda stuff.

Edited on by JaxonH

PLAYING
NS: Shin Megami Tensei V, MH Rise
3DS:
Steam: Forza Horizon 5
PS5:
MOST EXCITED FOR
NS: MH Rise Sunbreak, Bayonetta 3, Splatoon 3, Triangle Strategy, Zelda BotW 2, Metroid Prime 4

Jesus is Lord.

JaxonH

@NEStalgia
You are talking business. You're literally saying sales dictates if a game is worth a price

I'm saying value is placed on things by consumers. Whatever value is placed, that's what it's value is. And the only way to establish the value placed on something as a whole is to see if ppl buy it for a given price. If they do, then it's literally worth that much. Any argument to the contrary is moot. You don't have to agree, you don't even have to like it. But that's a fact. If ppl are buying games for $60, they are by definition worth that much.

You can call that "business", call it whatever you want. Doesn't change the fact.

And I'm really not looking to argue over Metroid. You're free to your opinion, I'm free to mine. I think it's one of the best games I've played this generation, and one of my favorite Metroid games of all time. I like it exactly how it is, and it met my expectations precisely. Wouldn't change a thing. It's not the same as 2D sprite games that aren't in the same ballpark. Just as DKC Tropical Freeze isn't the same as 2D sprite platformers that aren't in the same ballpark, just as Street Fighter V isn't the same as 2D sprite fighters that aren't in the same ballpark, despite having "similar amounts of content".

Edited on by JaxonH

PLAYING
NS: Shin Megami Tensei V, MH Rise
3DS:
Steam: Forza Horizon 5
PS5:
MOST EXCITED FOR
NS: MH Rise Sunbreak, Bayonetta 3, Splatoon 3, Triangle Strategy, Zelda BotW 2, Metroid Prime 4

Jesus is Lord.

Bolt_Strike

@NEStalgia Metroid Dread did kind of do that though. Perhaps not to the degree of a full sized AAA open world game (although with Metroid's sales traditionally being relatively low, I can hardly blame them for not wanting to), but the game does give the sense of a larger scope than past Metroid games. The size of the rooms and the size of the areas are bigger than past games, that entire loop in Artaria to get the Charge Beam seems to be about the size of a full fledged area from some of the past 2D games and that's not even 1/3 of all of Artaria, which itself is one of 9 areas in the game. So the game feels about 3-5 times as large as other Metroid games for less than twice the price. That's not a bad deal and we couldn't have gotten that on older hardware like the GBA, I don't see much issue here aside from comparing it to incomprehensibly huge open world games, and they're generally not going to go that route unless it's an IP they know sells bucketloads.

Bolt_Strike

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gcunit

@NEStalgia From where would one derive an expectation that Nintendo should produce more 'large scope' games?

Medium scope games is kinda Nintendo's modus operandi, isn't it? When Breath of the Wild came out, one of the reasons it blew so many people away was because it had a pretty un-Nintendo size scope.

Take Breath of the Wild and Xenoblade Chronicles out of the equation and what is the next largest scope game Nintendo has ever made?

Nintendo's core market is 'family game', medium scope stuff. I suppose Metroid Dread could have been 2 or 3 times larger in scope, but would it have been worth that effort? Less people would get the satisfaction of beating it, and it wouldn't have drastically affected sales figures.

The Metroid market was crying out for a game just like Dread. HD polish, modern controls, and just enough different from previous entries to stand out sufficiently. It strikes me as a very well measured production.

If they were to pour their heart and soul into every new game, they'd be spent. Ideas and innovations need managing - shoot your whole load and then where do you go next? That's boom and bust.

And one other thing... when Nintendo outsources development on a game, how does anyone outside of that project know how much input Nintendo still put into it? If there's one company that's more likely to have a hands-on approach to third party outsourcing, it's Nintendo, isn't it?

Edited on by gcunit

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NEStalgia

@faint true but they had a big 2020 and launched a new platform after some major games before it. Nintendo kind of dragged after 2019 which recovered after a meager 2018. Only 2017 and 2019 were really significant years.

@gcunit tbh you're mostly making my points for me... Measured production, why should they do more if it won't boost sales, medium scope at full of price....... You're pretty much repeating everything I've said, just with a positive spin, slightly...

@Bolt_Strike I don't see dread being as comparatively large as you say, but I also wasn't taking 3d open world, that's Prime 4s job really, but a larger scope 2d game still should have been expected. What we got is "fine" but just "fine" well made but didn't try to wow.

Retro and monolith (and now after lm3, nlg) are actually all first party. That's part the issue is that retro is one of the big internal studios and the only thing they've done since the game cube is 2 dkc games.... So anything those studios do is what I'm looking towards here, but retro..... Hasn't done anything. In ages...

Also for both you and @Ralizah I think your posts crossed with mine to Jax, where I described more of what I meant on size meaning scope, not budget, so no ralizah I'm not one of those big budget blockbuster people, and you know people rail on me on ps for not being one. Here everyone thinks I'm a pony and on ps everyone thinks I'm a nintendrone addicted to overpriced kiddy games. Like in politics, if everybody hates me, I must be doing something right! 😂

@JaxonH All I can say is we often agree on many things but on all topics raised here we couldn't possibly disagree more to the point that neither of us can even see how the other could possibly have the position they do. Probably not much more to say on it then. Not personal but it's very clear we'll never have an even similar point if view on this, unfortunately, if your point of view remains fixed on the business perspective, and yes it is a business perspective, that product value is based on what people pay rather than a comparison of similar market competitors.

It'd leave it only with the thought that if mercury stream made the exact same metroidvania game without the licensed names and characters, released it as a new IP as an indie, and published with devolver..... Would that price have held at $60 for a new ip indie metroidvania? Not a chance. It's brand power, not the content, that has "justified"the price point.

NEStalgia

JaxonH

@NEStalgia
that product value is based on what people pay rather than a comparison of similar market competitors

Value in comparison to competitors doesn't change the fact ppl are choosing to buy it, despite all those "other competitors". Which means ppl buying it judge its value overall as being higher, even in comparison. ​Idk what's so hard to understand about that.

Simply pointing to a game with more content and saying, "see, it has more content by comparison, therefore any game with less content isn't worth its price". Or "see, it has higher production values, by comparison, therefore any game with lower production values isn't worth its price". That's not how ppl value things. So using those metrics to assign value is meaningless. Ppl assign value based on the game as a whole. Fun factor included. Intensity of fun included. Desire to play included.

The whole, "value is just a comparison of which game has more stuff" is how we end up with cookie cutter open worlf Ubisoft tower games each year. Because they think a game is nothing more than graphics and content. That's not what gives a game its value. They can contribute, but they're not sole determining factors.

If value isn't assigned by the purchaser, then why do games go on sale? Explain it to me, please. If a game's value is just how much stuff it has in comparison to other games, then every single game would have a different price, because no two games are exactly the same. We'd have some games coating $350.12, others costing $51.73, and those prices would never change because after all, the value is how much stuff it has. If anything price should rise overtime as updates release.

Prices drop because the value is different for each person, because the value is assigned by the individual. This is basic stuff man.

You can personally say, "this game has less stuff, so I personally value it less" and that's fine. But trying to say a game objectively has less value just because it has less stuff? There are things that matter far more than just the mathematical sum of its parts. Value is never objective. Ever.

All you can say is you personally judge value based on stuff comparisons. Others judge value based on entertainment quality comparisons. It may have less stuff, but it still looks good, clean, polished, doesn't look like a cheap $10 pixel indie, and I'm gonna have 3X as much fun playing it, ergo, compared to other games its higher value.

What you're doing is, you're picking arbitrary metrics, then acting like those arbitrary metrics are the sole determining factor of value to everyone as a blanket statement to try to legitimize your claim.

Games are more than their file size. And while comparisons are used to determine value, the degrees of freedom along which ppl make those comparisons are virtually infinite. Trying to cherry pick 1 or 2 of them and saying, "these are the only aspects of comparison that matter" isn't sound logic.

If you don't like a game, just say you don't like it. If you want to voice an opinion, voice it. But what brings conflict is the assertion that, no, it's not just an opinion, it's FACT. A declaration that value is only determined by comparison with respect to X and Y, even if that's in opposition to reality for most consumers.

PLAYING
NS: Shin Megami Tensei V, MH Rise
3DS:
Steam: Forza Horizon 5
PS5:
MOST EXCITED FOR
NS: MH Rise Sunbreak, Bayonetta 3, Splatoon 3, Triangle Strategy, Zelda BotW 2, Metroid Prime 4

Jesus is Lord.

Bolt_Strike

@NEStalgia So you consider Retro and Monolith to be first party but not Game Freak, Intelligent Systems, and Good Feel? Again, confusing criteria here.

And no, you were the one that was citing AAA open world games as examples of "big" games. I didn't cross anything, you were the one you started that conversation.

Speaking of which, I'm still waiting for you to explain your criteria for what's a "big" game is (I do see you used Dread as an example and mentioned size and scope, but where do you draw the line?). What is an "A tier" game vs. a "B tier" game? What makes something an "HD 3DS game"? I've asked you this about 5 times. Other users have repeatedly asked you this. I've also compared the Switch lineup with the Wii U lineup, you said nothing about that either. You compared first party Nintendo games with third party games and I pointed out the inconsistency there, nothing about that. If you're not going to address any of this, there's nothing further to talk about here. You can't expect other people to agree with you or take your opinion seriously if you're just using arbitrary criteria to exclude games you don't like, if you want to exclude something it should be based on logical, factual criteria that can be consistently applied to other games.

Bolt_Strike

Switch Friend Code: SW-5621-4055-5722 | 3DS Friend Code: 4725-8075-8961 | Nintendo Network ID: Bolt_Strike

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