Topic: The Nintendo Switch Thread

@skywake See, I'd believe that if PS4 -> PS5 actually worked like that, but they all need separate releases to take advantage of the PS5's power. I don't see why that wouldn't also apply to the next Switch.

@IceClimbers
Yea, 1-2 Switch, LABO, ARMS, Snipperclips, Sushi Strikers, all of that early 1st-party stuff on the console was very core gaming.

The only reason we can say Switch was built off "traditional" games is because of the wild success of BotW. BotW is the reason Switch became successful, so it overshadows (perhaps thankfully) the fact that Switch and the majority of its initial 1st-party offerings were indeed outside-the-box approaches.

The problem is you guys have blinders on when it comes to the terminology you're using. You say Wii and DS were the only "blue ocean" hardware strats Nintendo used? What about the GameBoy? Back at that time, was portable gaming of that caliber not practically unheard of and a huge risk to take to tap into a market that may or may not have existed?

@rallydefault
I'm not sure you understand what the blue ocean is if that's your reply. The Switch may be familiar and convenient to us but it is very gamer forward. Of course there are a couple of Switch games you could argue are "blue ocean" plays, but it's not really central to the hardware

And if you think I'm unhinged here look at the initial reveal of the Switch vs the 3DS, Wii and Wii U to see it. The Switch reveal trailer spent half of its runtime following around a guy playing Skyrim on a plane and Karen playing Odyssey on the roof. The Wii U reveal was all video calls to your friend's dog and games of Othello with that Zelda tech demo at the end being almost an afterthought

edit: and you're now throwing out GB now as if it's some kind of great counter point when I explicitly excluded it from my list. So good job there. To be clear I don't think GB was a deliberate play for the Blue Ocean in the same way Wii was. It was a different time and so targeted a different kind of "non gamer" for one. But more to the point I think the goal was to make it cheap and efficient, that it appealed to non-gamers was just a nice side effect

@IceClimbers
I'd argue that the Blue Ocean is still part of Nintendo's broader strategy. But they're mostly trying to grab those users via mobile, movies, theme parks etc. And while it still pops up in the occasional title (Switch Sports, Ring Fit) it's not really integrated into the hardware itself. With DS, Wii, 3DS and Wii U it was very much central to the hardware pitch

And the fact that they've slowed down significantly on the mobile front says a lot I think

@rallydefault GB was the natural evolution of Nintendo's Game & Watch series, in the same way that the NES was an evolution of arcade cabinets. Sure Tetris (and to a lesser degree Vegas Stakes) definitely tapped into a chunk of what we'd now call Blue Ocean consumers, but that wasn't anywhere near the focus of Nintendo's software development or advertising. The term 'blue ocean' specifically means targeting people who wouldn't normally play any sort of games at all, not just casual gamers.

As for their software output... the ratio of casual games to games focused on gamers is significantly different on the Switch than the Wii, I think that much is clear. Even things like Animal Crossing added crafting, a feature that is the antithesis of blue ocean design. Out of the 85 games they've published as of last January, only 15, or 3/17, are blue ocean. We haven't even gotten a Nintendogs or Tomodachi life, two of their biggest blue ocean style IPs. Sure they're doing it, but it's by no means a focus or the foundation for the system.

(My count was 4 Labos, 2 1-2 Switch, Go Vacation, Big Brain, Brain Training, 2 Fitness Boxings, Snipperclips, Sushi Striker, Clubhouse Games, Tetris 99)

@skywake
I think it's pretty clear we don't agree on a great many things. Also, slow your roll - the GameBoy example had nothing to do with you. I completely forgot you even mentioned it, to be honest - you type dissertations lol I didn't even tag you in my last post, either, even though I did say "guys" at the end, so my bad if that made your spider sense tingle.

@link3710
That to me is just such an Italian hoagie way of approaching "evolution" and "blue ocean." By your logic, you can say almost anything is just an evolution instead of a blue ocean idea. The NES as an evolution of arcade cabinets? But your definition of blue ocean is getting non-gamers? How do you rectify that? The NES definitely tapped into an audience of people who didn't frequent arcades for numerous reasons.

@link3710 Ring Fit and Labo are the games I would put most out-there on Switch. And perhaps Game Builder Garage. Ring Fit was definitely made partially for the non-gamer (often parent).

I feel like the fact that 1980s/90s-era Tetris recruited a ton of non-gamers was more by accident than design. My mother held onto her gameboy with nothing but Tetris for ages. But she basically never played any other games either before or after. 😆

@skywake honestly as a Nintendo fan since day 1, I get some of the “Nintendo gonna Nintendo” talk. In their history they have made some very unnecessary decision that only they would make. Recent example, instead of the conventional voice chat solution, they decided to give us an app. It sounds good in theory due to everyone having modern phones. However, the standard solution is built into the system and going against that is off putting to developers. Also, there unwillingness over the years to be competitive for a technical standpoint. I hated what AMD was doing for them. The partnership with Nvidia was the best decision they’ve made maybe ever, IMO. Nvidia isn’t going to allow them to neglect the tech side because they have a ”gimmick” they feel will change the way we play. Nvidia has a brand to protect and they have some of the best tech available. Hopefully the switch 2 is the first Nintendo console that prioritizes the tech and graphical capability, along with whatever “gimmick” they might have. They never need to lead the tech and graphics race but they need to be able to compete and make a console developers are able to bring their vision of games to without significantly downgrades.

@Qwertyninty
I feel like there are two main things at play. On the one side there is the broader business strategy that Nintendo applies to one console or another. Like being cost competitive or trying to target a specific audience. That's where you get things like the Blue Ocean Strategy through the Iwata years or the push for a low price point and low power draw with the original GB

But then there's also the conservative side of Nintendo. The risk averse and slightly insular Nintendo. Where they're not quite aware of industry trends or are just reluctant to adopt new things. Which is where you get the friend code system, the slow to develop online infrastructure and so on. And also things like the lack of storage in the Wii or the withdrawal from the Nintendo PlayStation deal

But I think the main thing to note about Nintendo is that they make games. As in software. And while their hardware design is often not bound by what others are doing it, fundamentally, is all about servicing the games they want to make

My main point here is that people far to often misread Nintendo. They think it has to be gimmicks and weak hardware. I just don't think that's true

@skywake I get what you are saying but as a consumer that could care less about buying multiple consoles Nintendo makes it hard. They have to understand some gamers want to buy their system and have the option to play COD, GTA, etc without having to buy another console. Whether they see it this way or not (I don’t think they do) it seems like they don’t take that seriously. Like hey if you want “X” third party game better go buy another piece of hardware. In previous generations it seems like they didn’t even consult third party developers. Like hey here is our system either make your game work on it or don’t. Seems like the switch 2 might be the first system where (I think with help from nvidia) they said what architecture and specs do we need to make sure third party developers will want to bring their games to our system no matter what we are doing.

@Qwertyninty
Yeah, I don't really agree with you there. I think Nintendo are well aware of what developers want, probably more than any of the other players. If you don't agree ask yourself if you owned a small studio would you rather be bought out by Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo? There's an obvious answer to that I feel

Honestly, Nintendo's main problem with third parties is mostly just that during the Wii/Wii U eras they were chasing after a different audience. Their priorities weren't really aligned with what a lot of developers, particularly western developers, were trying to achieve. And now with the Swtich they're, effectively, all in on portable hardware and so are inevitably behind on spec. Which means games targeting the high end require more effort to port across

I don't think that's a case of Nintendo "not listening" to developers. And it's certainly not true that Nintendo doesn't want those games to come to their hardware. I mean, you only need to look at how quickly Nintendo came into save Bayonetta from not existing at all to see that

@skywake
There is evidence in front of us on the daily to directly refutes what you are saying and lends credence to "Nintendo will be Nintendo."

There are people on Youtube, social media (ugh), etc. who have worked at Nintendo and now freely offer their opinions. Real, legit people who have been there in various departments in NOA and even Japan. One of the many things these people consistently say is that Nintendo does NOT, I repeat - NOT - view themselves as in competition with Sony and Microsoft.

Another thing they say is that Nintendo, if given the chance between affordability or power, flexibility or power, will NEVER pick the power option with their hardware. And people behind the scenes are seeing that play out with their new hardware right now.

So yes, to a certain extent, their hardware has been "gimmick" (if you want to use that word) over power, at least in the modern era. I get that it's cool to make fun of stuff people say and say that you know better, but there is a reason WHY people say certain things - because it's been proven over and over again. Sometimes it's just so simple that it really is the correct answer.

So, again, yes - there will be a "gimmick" with the new hardware, I think, and it's not going to be the magnetic Joycon rails. I'm excited to see what it's gonna be!

@rallydefault
I feel you're trying to refute points I am not making. I never said anything about Nintendo "competing" with Sony or Microsoft. I have no idea where you've pulled that from. I don't think they see themselves in that way and you're putting words into my mouth to suggest as much. I would argue that they see themselves as a company that sells entertainment and that they compete with entertainment more broadly. They sell toys and art. They compete with Sony and Microsoft of course, but not directly. They compete with them in the same way that Netflix competes with YouTube or the latest album by Pond competes with a true crimes podcast

In terms of your power/flexibility/affordability triangle? It's an interesting thought, it doesn't quite work but. Because there are certainly cases where Nintendo has gone for premium components. The OLED screen in the Switch OLED for one. Also lets not forget the refusal to use optical media through the N64 at great expense but almost purely out of a belief that the load times on CD were not acceptable. Hell, even the Switch itself at launch wasn't a low end mobile device and, from what we know, the Switch 2 doesn't appear it will be either. Nintendo definitely goes for premium components if they feel it can improve the player's experience

Honestly, the point I was trying to get across and especially in reply to @Qwertyninty, wasn't that Nintendo going to suddenly chase after a spec. They won't. My point is that at their core Nintendo are a fantastic software development company with a lot of talent behind them. They know what developers want because they are developers. And post-Switch especially they have enough momentum that they'll be able to build a great portable platform which will not only be a platform to further flex their talent and IP but also somewhere that third parties can do the same

And while you are totally fixated on what the "hook" will be with the hardware? All I'm saying is that they don't need a hook. The hook will be the software. For most gamers it always has been. And the hardware spec can and will serve that. What can the company who built TotK do with almost an order of magnitude more power, 3X the RAM, 10x the storage bandwidth and hardware accelerated file decompression? A fair bit I'd think. Nintendo knows how to graphics. And that's exciting

You are confusing gimmick with appeal. The appeal of the Switch is its hybrid concept, in addition of course to first party games, which is always going to be the case. The hybrid concept appeal is not going away anytime soon and remains as strong as it was the day the Switch was released. Nintendo doesn't need to invent new gimmicks to grab people's attention, it has already grabbed their attention by the hair and isn't letting go.

During the past, Nintendo had to switch strategies and gimmicks between consoles because they didn't have the people's attention. Game Cube wasn't successful, so Nintendo chose to stop investing on power and tried something new. The Wii motion controls were pretty great at first, but people got bored of them pretty quickly, so Nintendo was forced to try something new. Wii U was a huge failure, so obviously something needed to change. The Switch is the biggest win of Nintendo ever, and you are trying to convince me that they are looking for a new gimmick, when they have the goose with the golden eggs? Nintendo has made more money during the Switch's lifetime than they have made before with all their previous consoles combined.

When your console's appeal is wide and established you don't go around looking for new gimmicks, you stick to your guns and reinforce them, and this is what Nintendo will do. Of course a few bells and whistles will be added for marketing purposes, as it always happens with technology products, but the main product will remain largely the same.

@skywake
I don't think they need a hook for the Switch 2, either - if anything, in my mind, the hook is the hybrid nature just as before. I'm thinking whatever new "gimmick" they introduce is just going to be something to differentiate it, perhaps something like the 3D with the 3DS - maybe it's something that will stick and be used by lots of games, or maybe it'll be like the 3DS and not really make much of a splash but still be part of an excellent console.

@alexwolf
I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

@skywake I wasn’t putting words into your mouth. That’s was me speaking my opinion. Also, it shouldn’t be considered chasing specs. They do however need to have a competitive spec console so that developers don’t see a need to dismiss the console as one they shouldn’t work on. They shouldn’t feel the need to drastically downscale and perform “miracle ports” just to support the console. That my opinion. That’s goes a long way along with a modern online infrastructure and modern industry standard capabilities like voice chat through the console.

[quote=rallydefault]@skywake
I don't think they need a hook for the Switch 2, either - if anything, in my mind, the hook is the hybrid nature just as before. I'm thinking whatever new "gimmick" they introduce is just going to be something to differentiate it, perhaps something like the 3D with the 3DS - maybe it's something that will stick and be used by lots of games, or maybe it'll be like the 3DS and not really make much of a splash but still be part of an excellent console.

“You get it! The “hook” “appeal” “gimmick” any phrase you want to use is built into the switch. The hybrid nature is the main draw. Being able to play amazing high quality games on the go or on your big screen is what draws players in. Hopefully, Nintendo gets that and makes the switch a numbered console and keep it going. They hit the jackpot and I’m afraid they don’t even realize it.

@Qwertyninty
That post wasn't in reply to you

@Qwertyninty
I think the Switch 2 is still gonna be a Switch, yea. I just think they're gonna toss something "Nintendo" into it to differentiate it from the first iteration.

Whether that's an actual clamshell design or foldable design (too expensive likely), or somehow allowing two-screen play like the Wii U and its gamepad simultaneously, or some sort of VR/altered reality thing far beyond LABO, or some sort of smell-o-vision from the 90s (lol). I don't know. I just think they're gonna toss something goofy in there, but it will still very clearly be a Switch.

@rallydefault
I don't intend to get into an argument again here but I would note that there was that shipping manifest of Switch 2 components. It's publicly available but, well, you need to pay for access is my understanding. But people are crazy and Famiboards managed to cross reference it with known Switch 2 components codenames (like the SoC). That and, well, the form factor of the thing making it clearly "a Switch"

It revealed the size of the main housing (115mm x 206mm x 14mm), 12GB of LPDDR5, 256GB of UFS3.1 storage, NFC. A dock that contains a Display port to HDMI 2.1 converter (i.e. supporting upto 4K/120Hz modes) and a Gigabit Ethernet Controller. Also a touch screen with no recognisable part number that leaves us out in the cold a bit.... except that the dimensions of the casing suggest 8" which lines up with other rumours. But all of that is standard stuff. Much hype? Sure. But almost by definition it's all "just" better internal components which isn't what we're talking about

Then there were multiple pre-printed circuit boards. Of those there were two smaller ones clearly for JoyCon given they were labelled left and right. Which again is basically just suggesting it's the Switch form factor again. The rest could be accounted for as WiFi daughter boards, dock, the main motherboard and a Pro Controller. None of this is particularly outlandish

The only place that there was a clear departure from the existing Switch? It included a microphone. Also I believe, although I didn't see the receipts for this, that they also confirmed the magnets and an additional button. That's it. None of that I would describe as "Nintendo wacky" elements

To be clear, there could still be something "wacky" in there that has slid under the radar. I mean the Switch somehow managed to sneak what's effectively the Wii Vitality sensor onto the right JoyCon. It's not central to what the Switch is but it's certainly odd. But you would think if we're at the shipping manifests are leaking that it has a mic phase something like that would've been picked up

Of course that hasn't stopped people continuing to speculate about what the "Nintendo hook" will be even amongst people who know all of the above. And until we get the full reveal we just don't know for sure. It just, to me, seems like people are trying find ways to jam this "whacky Nintendo" narrative onto this when there doesn't appear to be much evidence for it. It doesn't really seem to fit with what we know and it doesn't fit with where Nintendo finds themselves at this point in time

Not saying you're doing this but there are certainly posters who are saying things along the lines of there "has" to be something with a tone suggesting that if it doesn't it's doomed. And I just wonder how these people are going to pivot from that position. Because to me it seems very likely it won't have a whacky element, and I firmly believe such a console would still do very well. Even if Microsoft come out, as has been rumoured, and release their own portable. Nintendo and Switch own this niche, they have great talent and the strongest IP. They can play a conservative hand

Very different topic, but I just noticed Frogun just released a sequel. Tons of people were playing the original a couple years ago and lots of articles on this site. I think I'll try the demo.