Topic: The Nintendo Switch Thread

@JaxonH

Yeah exactly. There’s only Microsoft really pushing BC this gen and, well, they could take the angle that the market has spoken. It gets people on internet gaming forums very animated but to the mass market....

@GameOtaku

Yeah but from Nintendo’s POV where’s the financial incentive to do that? At a push you could say it might persuade users to move to their new system but they know that, realistically, the type of person who has a big VC collection is the type who will buy Nintendo’s systems no matter what.

@GameOtaku
That would be an excellent solution

@electrolite77
I actually believe all systems will be backwards compatible going forward. Microsoft is championing not just BC, but forward compatibility as well. Knowing that any game you purchase now will always be playable on future hardware.

The only reason Sony didn’t go BC was the move away from Cell architecture. Now that their systems closely resemble a PC, i’m willing to bet the PS5 is backwards compatible with PS4.

And Nintendo has always historically supported BC. Much like PS4, the only reason they didn’t include it was their move away from the GameCube/Wii/Wii U architecture into ARM territory, which was specifically designed to be easy to port to from PS4/X1. I think the next generation Switch from Nintendo will be fully BC with Switch games, as they’ve offered BC in the vast majority of their modern systems, from DS and GBA, 3DS and DS, Wii and GC, Wii U and Wii.

Wait a survey asked if people asked for Persona 5 on Switch? Hmmm. However I did fill out a Nintendo survey in the early Switch days which mentioned GTA... I assume Nintendo’s been busy like crazy to get as much as possible in the system.

Atlus is strange though; they’re one of those few publishers that just do their thing and throw their games as exclusives on platforms. On the other side (as in PS4 owners) are amazed that they’re not receiving SMT V on the system.

But these days, the barrier isn’t as high as it was during the Wii/Wii U era. The only third parties actively denying games on Nintendo systems are Falcom (which are known to dislike Nintendo) and some people Within the Yakuza team at Sega (apparantly the Japan only Wii U port really soured them on Nintendo systems, bizarre). Everything else seems fair game, even Atlus stuff.

@Sadist Don't forget EA and Activision. I'm sure we won't get anything else from EA outside of FIFA, and Activision has to be practically dragged into considering Switch versions for any games.

@JaxonH

Hopefully so. If one platformholder is really pushing it and it gains traction (and they’ve really made 360 games a very attractive part of GWG and Game Pass) there is an imperative on the others.

PS4 Pro and XB1X certainly seem like the first market tests of incremental hardware released rather than starting again with a new generation. Nintendo have hinted something similar. PC and Mobile gaming follow the same model so why not Consoles?

So yeah I hope you’re right. I just find it interesting that it doesn’t seem to have moved the needle for MS so far while the two systems with no BC at all are selling like mad. The motivation for he platform holders going forward is to lock users into their ecosystem I.e. there’s a financial imperative. But so far (see also-Wii U) there’s no indication BC in and of itself is a big system seller.

@electrolite77
We don’t know that though. For all we know the Xbox would’ve sold far less without BC, and I could definitely see that being the case, if only Xbox One games were playable on the system? It would lose a ton of its appeal.

Even if it’s a 10-15% bump, which you might not notice, that would be about 5 million unit sales of the Xbox that could be directly attributed to BC.

But I think it’s not necessarily going to be something that sells consoles so much as something that can prevent sales if you don’t have it. I can tell you right now, if PS5 is not backwards compatible I am not buying one. All those games I invested in, they need to be playable or I’ll just stick with Xbox. That will be a determining factor in the consoles I buy next generation.

@JaxonH I never said they were bound by a strict exclusivity contract. But, even if they were, none of what you posted would contradict that. There'd be nothing strange about them being contractually obliged to keep the mainline games on Sony systems, but the characters being allowed to show up in spin-offs and whatnot on other systems; if anything, that's free advertising for the main games on Sony's platforms. Recall that Simon and Richter showed up in Smash Ultimate shortly after the release of a PS4 exclusive Castlevania collection, after all.

I don't think it's a contractual thing, though. They just have a tendency of keeping certain series on certain ecosystems, and they're incredibly uninterested in porting games between ecosystems. It has only happened a time or two in the last couple of decades. Most notably, the Saturn-exclusive Soul Hackers was remade for Nintendo 3DS. Otherwise? Almost never happens. Sony exclusives stay on Sony systems, and Nintendo exclusives stay on Nintendo systems.

As such, I'm fairly certain SMT V will remain exclusive to Nintendo's systems.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, after all.

No Persona game has ever appeared on 3DS or Switch. Persona Q is an Etrian Odyssey game that uses art, music, and characters from the Persona games, but it's nothing like the proper Persona games at all.

I don't see what any of that has to do with Atlus. It sounds like you're building up some sort of narrative in your mind and then insisting that Atlus has to conform to it.

Going to your examples, though...

The Crash remasters were never going to be exclusive forever.

Disgaea has appeared on at least one previous Nintendo system before (Disgaea DS), and Ys VIII is only on Switch because NIS was willing to port it. If NIS doesn't publish Ys IX, then you won't see it on Switch. It's currently only confirmed for PS4.

I'm obviously not saying that there isn't an uptick in Japanese franchises getting Nintendo ports, but there's no evidence that Atlus will follow suit.

Decades of similar behavior in terms of how they decide to release games suggest it won't come to Switch. Obviously, I won't say it absolutely won't happen, as that's beyond my pool of available knowledge, but I think people who are hyping themselves up for a Persona 5 Switch release are setting themselves up for disappointment. Like they have so many times in the past.

Of course, I hope I'm mistaken.

Like all those people who hyped up Metroid with no base to support it?

Come on people, be smarter than that. I don't see Persona 5 coming to Switch.

Could it? Possibly.

Does that mean it's likely, or will be announced soon, or happen because of Smash DLC?

Absolutely freaking not.

Hmm, with nintendo deciding the roster for the DLC, I'm guessing it is most definitely being used to advertise upcoming games, ports or otherwise. Otherwise they'd just let Sakurai do it as usual.

@Ralizah
There’s just no evidence to support that though. The fact that mainline games have only released on PS thus far is not evidence to support exclusivity. And we have plenty of examples demonstrating that games previously only released on one platform can and do release on other systems down the line. Apparent exclusivity is usually explained behind the scenes, for various reasons. We just see the games on one system, and make the logical leap that they are bound by exclusivity. Behind the scenes though there is often other reasons. Perhaps they just never thought there was an audience elsewhere before. Perhaps there were no viable alternative platforms before. Perhaps the developer only had the financial means to develop for one platform before. Perhaps they have an affinity for that platforms brand, but that can be wrestled away with the allure of profit and pressure from the publisher.

So the whole thing is propped up on conjecture and hypothesis, but without any real evidence to support it. The only real actual evidence we have is, the series in the past has only released on PS. Any conclusions beyond that comes down to how you interpret that evidence.

No mainline Persona has released on 3DS or Switch. That’s true. But that doesn’t mean that’s going to always remain the case. It goes back to the previous paragraph- only evidence we have is the fact that it hasn’t happened in the past. That is not evidence of exclusivity, as seen by countless other titles that have come to Switch.

And is not “hyping” anything. That’s a personal choice if someone wants to “hype” it. What we’re doing here is coming to logical conclusions based on evidence. And the fact remains that just because they haven’t done it before, does not indicate bound exclusivity.

Now. If there weren’t examples of the franchise on Nintendo (mainline or not, it shows they have an interest in representing the franchise on other platforms, that’s just a fact), if they weren’t sending out surveys specifically asking if people wanted to see Persona 5 on Switch (and let’s take a moment to acknowledge how profound that is- you don’t ask consumers if they’re interested in something you have zero intention of potentially following through on), if Nintendo headquarters didn’t override Sakurai’s sovereign choice to put Joker in Smash (which again, let’s take a moment to acknowledge how profound this is- you don’t override a creator’s choice unless there’s politics involved), and if all of this wasn’t happening right as we see evidence for a complete edition in the works... then I might see your argument as being more valid.

As it stands though, I see no valid argument, aside from “well, the first couple games in the series were only on PlayStation therefore it must be bound by exclusivity and therefore we must ignore all this other evidence. Which to me... seems an awful big reach given we have evidence to the contrary for multiple series and titles previously thought to be PS exclusive.

If you just look at it objectively, without clouding your judgment via “they’ve never released a mainline game on Nintendo before therefore it can never happen” lens, the evidence is actually pretty overwhelming. Enough to cast reasonable doubt on exclusivity, at the very least. And... maybe it never pans out. That’s certainly a possibility. But assuming that’s the case, one has to wonder why the survey polling interest, and why did Nintendo HQ negotiate Joker in Smash along with the other 4 DLC characters in exchange for nothing? If there is nothing to be gained, then why not just let Sakurai pick?

I think there’s a much more logical explanation, and that is Nintendo HQ is leveraging Smash to negotiate 3rd party support on the Switch. Something they should have been doing a long time ago. We’ve seen a fire in Nintendo’s belly for 3rd party support this generation. They are definitely playing hardball this time.

@JaxonH This is what I mean: they send out some wide-ranging survey asking people whether they'd buy a variety of potential things across a variety of platforms, and you reduce that to "[a survey] specifically asking if people wanted to see Persona 5 on Switch."

Since you insist your speculation is based on evidence, let's explore that.

Here are the various things the survey (to be clear, the 2018 online consumer survey) was asking about:

"Persona series Action RPG
Persona series online RPG
Completely new Persona 6
Persona series shooting game
Persona series board game
Persona 5 fighting game
Persona series strategy game"

It also probes potential remakes of all the mainline SMT and Persona games ever released.

Possible platform options that were given include: "PlayStation 4, PlayStation VR, PS Vita, Nintendo Switch, Nintendo 3DS, PS Vita, smartphone, and Other"

So, no, it's not "specifically asking" about a Switch version of anything, and the existence of the survey would just as potentially point to the existence of a Persona 5 shooting game on Nintendo 3DS, or a Nocturne remake on PS Vita.

Putting that aside, you cite Joker's inclusion in Smash as evidence of the game coming to Switch. Even though the recent ports of the games Simon and Richter show up in, for example, are PS4 exclusive. And even though Cloud maintained a Smash presence for years, even when nary a Final Fantasy game would end up releasing on 3DS or Wii U.

As I said, Joker appears in Persona Q2, so if they were going to promote anything, it'd be that upcoming release.

You mention the presence of spinoff series as evidence when, if anything, that would give Microsoft just as much of a claim on a possible Persona 5 remake. Consider that both Persona 4 Arena and Persona 4 Arena Ultimax both released on the 360.

So, we have two possibilities:
1) A series that has never appeared on consoles designed by other manufacturers will suddenly go multiplat
or
2) Spinoffs are just spinoffs, and their presence on a platform doesn't indicate anything about potential main series ports to consoles from other manufacturers.

Your argument is literally: "A series that has never appeared on a Nintendo console is going to suddenly be ported to the Switch because one of the characters from Persona 5 is DLC for Smash Ultimate," even though guest characters whose series aren't on Nintendo platforms have been included before.

So you'll excuse me when I say that your "unclouded judgment" on this matter smacks much more of "wishful thinking" than anything else.

EDIT: With that said, the one thing I will say is that SEGA has apparently shown a lot of interest in getting Atlus to port its games to other platforms. I've heard specific mentions of them wanting games like Persona 5 on PC. I don't think it'll happen, but it'd be nice to see the series liberated from Sony exclusivity.

@Ralizah
Yes. Just because they’re asking about a whole host of things does not discount the fact they asked about the game on the Switch. Polling interest in other potential projects does not discount them polling interest for the game on Switch. But even discounting Switch being targeted “specifically”, it is still evidence of their willingness to bring the series to other platforms, which right now is the crux of your argument against this happening. So it’s very relevant evidence. The simple fact remains that if it was not something they could do or were willing to do, they would not include Nintendo Switch (or other platforms) at all. The fact so many platforms are mentioned is irrefutable proof they have interest in bringing the series elsewhere, and are not confined by any one platform.

Cloud and Richter were not chosen by Nintendo HQ. Those characters were chosen by Sakurai. Simple as that (and even then, it opened doors for things like Final Fantasy VII on Switch, something we never would’ve thought possible over the past two decades, and that was without corporate Nintendo negotiations involved). Nintendo HQ superseded his authority and mandated Joker in Smash. They chose, not him. Big difference. And ask yourself the question, without bias... why? Nintendo headquarters is not going to do that unless they have a reason... unless they have something to gain by doing so.

My argument is, “A series that has never appeared on a Nintendo console is going to suddenly be ported to the Switch (as a number of series that have never appeared on a Nintendo console have recently done- see Valkyria Chronicles which is also owned by Sega) because one of the characters from Persona 5 is DLC for Smash Ultimate, because Nintendo HQ superseded Sakurai and forced him in, and because the series has historically been ported to handhelds afterward and Switch is the only viable handheld system on the market that could run the game, and because we have clear evidence Atlus is not opposed to the series leaving PS, as evidenced by the survey and as evidenced by spinoffs and as evidenced by Joker in Smash. And all of this lining up right when we see evidence that the game is being re-released, which seems more than coincidental given the timing of Joker’s release”

THAT is my argument.

Have to excuse me when I say that your unclouded judgement reeks of “wishful thinking”, ‘haps you’re bothered by the prospect of this game coming to Switch? Because looking at the evidence objectively... at the VERY least you have to admit there is more to this then just “oh there’s a character in Smash so the game must be coming”. Come now. That was never the argument, and I’m pretty sure trying to simplify it as such is definitely some kind of strawman. Nintendo headquarters chose Joker. Not the game creator. Why.... why? You’re telling me that you honestly believe Nintendo HQ just picked names out of a hat for games that have little to no ties to Nintendo? You really believe that? So corporate Nintendo is now mandating 3rd party characters in Smash without anything in return? Come now... come now. We know Atlus is looking to expand to brand, expand the franchise, or else they wouldn’t be asking with surveys in the first place. Who cares that Switch was included... they are clearly looking to expand the Persona brand. Doesn’t it seem reasonable that with Switch doing as well as it is, they have considered it internally? Doesn’t it seem reasonable that discussions have taken place between Atlus and Nintendo, in which case it’s not a logical leap to see Nintendo offering advertisement in Smash as inventive to seal the deal... this is not some giant leap of logic here. If Sakurai chose Joker, the argument would probably hold a lot less water. But he didn’t.

This is not “wishful thinking”. I wish a lot of things would happen. Doesn’t mean I believe them contrary to evidence. I wish EA and Activision would port more games to Switch. Doesn’t mean I believe it’s happening. I do wish for Persona 5 to come to Switch. But that has zero bearing on my objective analysis of this evidence. If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t. But right now the evidence seems to indicate there is a good possibility it will happen. My “wishes” have nothing to do with that. If new evidence comes out that suggests otherwise, i’ll change my beliefs based on that evidence. If Persona 5 R gets announced as a complete edition for PS4, I’ll take the evidence into account, and that would probably be enough to sway my mind on the likelihood of a Switch release. As it stands right now based on the evidence we have right now, I see a Switch release as being at least 50% probable.

We could just... wait and see? If it does happen, it does, and if it doesn't, it doesn't.

@JaxonH I think you're assigning too much significance to that tweet about Nintendo deciding on which characters to include. The Persona series is popular, especially in Japan. There's a spinoff game slated to release on the Nintendo 3DS in Western territories in 2019. It makes perfect sense to include the character, even if the game isn't getting ported to their platform, for the same reason it makes sense to include any popular character in Smash.

As to the survey, the only thing it's really evidence of is that Atlus is collecting information. They do it every year. Big companies also routinely register domains and trademarks which ultimately lead to nothing.

So: mountains out of molehills.

From my perspective, it looks like you're taking mostly unconnected pieces of information and are forming a narrative out of them that is, as yet, unsupported by the facts.

This happens CONSTANTLY with Nintendo fans. Earlier this year, it happened at least twice: first with the Smash Ultimate "Grinch leak," and then with a non-existent Metroid Prime Trilogy port. Now it's happening again with Persona 5.

Persona 5 on Switch COULD happen, but I don't think it's likely.

@Octane Fiddlesticks! If arguing with a stranger about a subject neither of you are particularly knowledgeable about isn't the point of the internet, then I don't know what is!

@Ralizah
I disagree. You could look at any one piece of evidence and say oh, that doesn’t mean much on its own. But when you see a series of evidences and supportive truths that all point to the same thing... it’s not so easy to write them all off.

I don’t know what happens “all the time” with “Nintendo fans”. I didn’t buy into any Grinch leak. I certainly didn’t buy into any Metroid Prime Trilogy port either. In fact I was the one saying that it’s almost certainly FALSE. So don’t lump me in with others to try to make me sound like some gullible conspiracy theorist. When the data suggests otherwise, I say so.

All those things mentioned, I said they were bogus. Of course I wanted Metroid Prime Trilogy. But I still said that was a bogus rumor.

But this... this is legit. This goes beyond rumor. This is based on evidence and reasonable logical conclusions (is it really so hard to believe this particular series would come to the hottest new portable system on the market, even after negotiating an appearance in Smash Bros, taking one of only 5 coveted advertisement slots? Is that really such a leap of logic?). And I don’t really care what others say, I come to conclusions based on the evidence I see, and the evidence I am seeing points toward the game coming to Switch. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t. Time will tell. But that’s the conclusion I am drawing from the evidence, until further evidence is presented. And if further evidence is brought forward that suggests otherwise, I very well could change my mind. Nothing is set in stone, my beliefs and opinions included. But right now based off what we have to go on at this very moment the evidence suggests it’s at least as likely as not.

@JaxonH Fair enough. I hope you're right. The lack of portability was my one major issue with Persona 5. It's a very segmented experience, so it'd be great as a portable game that you pick up and set down whenever you feel like it. Sony has completely abandoned their portable hardware line, so the Switch is my only real hope for that to happen.

If it does get announced, I'll put my PS4 steelbook up for sale on that same day.

It's also the one series that would get me to purchase a future Sony home console. I bought my PS4 for Gravity Rush 2, Persona 5, and Silent Hills. The Gravity Rush franchise is dead. Silent Hills will never happen. Persona is the only thing keeping me from completely abandoning that hardware line. Sony has just become much too western for my liking.

@Ralizah
My fear is that the game’s producer is too loyal to Sony. Not legally obligated, but willfully. You notice in Japan there’s a very devout Sony following, developers included. A lot of games that have traditionally stayed on PlayStation are not necessarily bound by legal contracts but simply the producer’s desires to only make content for that platform. My fear is, that loyalty will lead them to either attempt a Vita version (which I deem unlikely, but I still want to account for the possibility), or simply redump the game on PS4 as a “complete” version.

My other fear is, the ones who partook of that survey are all Sony fans, who will naturally tell Atlus “we want it on PS4, we want it on Vita”, which could lead to Atlas believing that’s where everyone wants to play these games, not realizing it’s a minority loyalist following telling them those things. The average Joe doesn’t want to play those games on Vita. But the diehard loyalists will tell them they want it on Vita over Switch every single time, by virtue of the fact it’s made by Sony, not because it would provide a better experience.

Those are my fears. And seeing the Dancing games on Vita reinforces those fears because it tells me Atlas just doesn’t get it. When you have communication with the loyalists of a fanbase saying “we want it on PS4 and Vita”, and you have a game producer who has a natural inclination toward Sony, you can end up in a cycle where they hear what he wants to hear. And that’s what I’m afraid of.

Thankfully, Joker’s inclusion in Smash tells me they are at least in negotiations with Nintendo, and while they may be a little skittish about investing in a new platform without a track record for support, perhaps Joker’s inclusion was Nintendo’s way of tempering those fears within Atlus.

I’ll say this. If Nintendo negotiated his inclusion, and didn’t work out the game coming to Switch, they are going to have a lot of angry fans for getting their hopes up with such a wildcard character that has so few ties to Nintendo. Whether justified or not, that will be the result. And surely Nintendo knows this. Cloud was justified by multiple Final Fantasy games appearing on Nintendo hardware, and they did eventually secure FFVII among multiple other entries. Fans didn’t expect much because Wii U was in the dumpster. Most rational people understood that any potential benefits gained would likely be seen the following generation. Snake got in because of Twin Snakes on GameCube, and Simon Belmont is just an iconic character. Unfortunately, I don’t think Konami understands what a major opportunity they are missing by not bringing those franchises to Switch. And it’s quite possible they are, that those games are in development and we just don’t know about them yet. I can’t imagine they would put Simon Belmont in Smash and Konami wouldn’t at least try to capitalize on that in some way, shape or form. It makes no logical sense whatsoever. And that’s why I do believe Konami has something in the works even if we don’t know about it yet. Because that company would have to be ran by stoned monkeys to not capitalize off Simon in Smash.

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We’ll see how things turn out. I have to believe Nintendo wants this game on Switch though, and I struggle to believe they would designate one of these 5 precious slots in exchange for nothing. If they are not willing to bring the game to the system they would be much better served using that slot to negotiate a different game from a different company. From a business perspective, that’s what I’d be doing if I was running the company.

You know, I'd like to turn that argument on its head with SMT V. I have no idea why that's Nintendo exclusive since that's not being funded/published by Nintendo at all, unlike something like Bayonetta 2/3 and The Wonderful 101. Wouldn't it make sense to make that multiplatform to increase the amount of exposure that series gets?

I'm all for exclusives to entice consumers (it's why I literally bought a PS4 JUST to play Bloodborne), but some cases of exclusivity just make me scratch my head. Like, if given the opportunity, wouldn't you want more places to get people to buy your game?

The latter is what I'm expecting, personally. It's not unprecedented (PS2 got P3: FES after the vanilla release of P3), and I very much agree, as I said earlier, that Atlus probably wants to keep the Persona brand on Playstation devices. I don't think they're contractually bound to do so, they just don't seem to like having franchises cross ecosystems. Notice that once SMT went to Nintendo, it disappeared from Playstation consoles entirely.

And (this is, of course, PURELY speculative) they might not want to do something that might harm their reliable relationship with Sony. They're notoriously competitive with the Playstation brand, after all.

There is a lot of demand for Atlus games on the Switch, but I think that enthusiasm is mostly generated by Western Switch owners. I'm sure Atlus' American staff are well aware of this, but is the message coming through on the (let's be honest, much more important) other side of the pond?

It's kind of a similar situation with Falcom. Ys VIII sold great on Switch... in Western territories. In Japan, it hardly made a dent. There was no enthusiasm for a late port of a previously Playstation-exclusive franchise. So did its success over here even register in the Land of the Rising Sun?