That's literally the same thing. That's the same as saying "I'm not close-minded in general, I'm just close-minded about this"
It's still being close-minded.
Yeah, sorry but that's one of the silliest definitions I've ever heard. Closed-mindedness isn't when you just reject any new idea. Closed-mindedness is when you reject a new idea specifically on the grounds that it's new or doesn't fit with your current biases.
Which is why calling people closed-minded is a completely empty way of arguing. To argue with someone, you do have to assume that they have good intentions and are honestly expressing a thought-out position. Anything else just descends into name-calling.
After searching for definitions, the best one I found for close minded is being unreceptive to new ideas. So, if someone were to suggest being able to play as an elephant in the next Zelda game, and I shoot it down, that's being close minded.
The key point to keep in mind is that being close minded is not a bad thing.
Formally called brewsky before becoming the lovable, adorable Yoshi.
Now playing:
Final Fantasy XIV (PC) | The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening (Switch) | Celeste (Switch)
In before everyone starts arguing over whether Sheik is male or female, when we have official sources saying what it actually is.
I thought it was obvious she was Zelda in disguise? Didn't OoT make that obvious?
Yes, but some people believe that Zelda changed her gender to be male while disguised as Sheik (to make it more convincing, I suppose).
Tbf I can see where the idea comes from. Sheik is referred to with male pronouns in OoT and perhaps due to the limitations of the N64 hardware her body shape appeared masculine (later designs seem to appear more feminine to avert the confusion). The difference in skin color between Zelda and Sheik also makes people think she assumed a different form altogether. Then adding fuel to the fire was the manga although not canon having Zelda sealing away her consciousness to so she would believe she was a Sheikah boy.
It is essentially the same thing. You basically don't want Link to be female because he was always male
Right, but I think you are leaving out a few assumptions you're making there. Otherwise, to be consistent, you'd have to be in favour of giving all female protagonists male options as well? Which I assume you wouldn't be. The reasons you wouldn't be are obviously the issue. We can't pretend that this whole line of argument isn't deeply tied into various theories on gender that are trying to be pushed.
I'm probably going to drop out of this discussion because I honestly don't feel passionate enough about the subject to sit here and argue my point. I'm fine with Link being male, but I think having the option to be female would be pretty cool, even if I wouldn't use it myself.
@Octane@Dezzy and @brewsky You guys have a point about the definition of close-mindedness. While I don't see how making the Hero of Time an elephant or a pigeon is even remotely similar to simply giving the option, the OPTION, mind you, to make Link female, I guess I was a bit accusatory to @Octane in the post and for that I apologize. I shouldn't have just assumed you hadn't put at least a bit of thought into it, even if I disagree with your conclusions
Tbf I can see where the idea comes from. Sheik is referred to with male pronouns in OoT and perhaps due to the limitations of the N64 hardware her body shape appeared masculine (later designs seem to appear more feminine to avert the confusion). Adding fuel to the fire was the manga although not canon having Zelda sealing away her consciousness to so she would believe she was a Sheikah boy.
I suppose that is a valid point. However, with the male pronouns in OoT, that was most likely done because of Zelda's disguise. You can change how you look, but what better disguise is there when you claim that you're the opposite gender? There's no doubt in my mind that Zelda claimed she was male while disguised as Sheik. But that's all it is: a claim. It was a lie meant to protect her.
Formally called brewsky before becoming the lovable, adorable Yoshi.
Now playing:
Final Fantasy XIV (PC) | The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening (Switch) | Celeste (Switch)
@Octane@Dezzy and @brewsky You guys have a point about the definition of close-mindedness. While I don't see how making the Hero of Time an elephant or a pigeon is even remotely similar to simply giving the option, the OPTION, mind you, to make Link female,
The pigeon was a separate point. The elephant was obviously a reductio ad absurdum.
What are you guys looking forward to the most in Zelda U? Personally, its the adventure and exploration.
Honestly everything. But I'm quite curious what dungeons and boss battles we'll see, and I wonder if fishing will make a return. Oh, and the map size, that was something they talked about during both E3 and the Game Awards, so I'd like to experience it myself and see how it affects the game.
Not being open to change is THE LITERAL DEFINITION of closed-mindedness,
Lol, no it isn't. Very nice liberal trick of defining conservatism as equivalent to closed-mindedness though. Closed mindedness can just as equally occur on people who are promoting change as they can be closed to the idea that the change will end up being negative (and often are)
I'm not saying I necessarily disagree on the argument. While I will definitely resist this kind of political correctness in other areas of media, Zelda is one of the areas where it would have almost zero creative impact on Nintendo.
The only potential problem I can see is whether they'd then have to change Zelda to a prince. It's not always clear whether it's supposed to be a romantic relationship between them.
What are you ranting about? This isn't 'a liberal agenda' and has absolutely nothing to do with political correctness.
In any case closed-mindedness is commonly expressed in unwillingness or resistance to change. Conservation; not the political world view, the concept, means to keep things as they are. Progressives are conservative with regards to the environment and conservatives are quite unconservative, as they always want to change things like welfare, social security, and taxes in the US. Anyway, stop trying to bring politics into a quite apolitical matter.
I generally try to be open-minded and it lets me enjoy change. And let's be clear here, the issue being discussed is a gender select option for the protagonist of Zelda U. That's not really 'changing' things as much as it is adding an option. I'm going to mock everyone so vehemently opposed to that idea just as I would mock people against adding the option to remap the controls.
Whether or not it's being 'closed-minded' it's still being unopen to change; effectively the same thing.
And let's be clear here, the issue being discussed is a gender select option for the protagonist of Zelda U. That's not really 'changing' things as much as it is adding an option. I'm going to mock everyone so vehemently opposed to that idea just as I would mock people against adding the option to remap the controls.
I agreed that in Zelda it would be fine!
But the fact that you consider gender as trivial and mutable as a control scheme is a perfect example of why this IS a heavily political position when taken in the more general form. I'm willing to accept that you don't personally consider it political. But I would suggest that that's probably because you don't realise that you're making assumptions that other people disagree with.
In any case closed-mindedness is commonly expressed in unwillingness or resistance to change.
And gullibility is commonly expressed as a willingness to accept any new idea you're fed. We really need to do better than trying to define ourselves to be correct on these issues. (which is what you're doing by reaching for emotionally loaded buzzwords like closed-minded)
@Haru17@Dezzy Stahp it you two. It's not like Link HAS to be the protagonist of every Zelda game, if you really want a female protagonist, why not make up a new character/use an existing female character? Let's let Link be Link, Samus be Samus, and not want to change things just to change things. Change can be good, but if you're off changing things just because you wanna change things, that seems kind of silly. A gender is just a gender. Different body features that play no real part into the story of Hyrule, whoooop. Link is already pretty gender androgynous. If we're so hellbent on changing appearances, let's just make Link look like Mario wearing Peach's outfit. Oh, what's that? That would seem out of character? Yes. Yes it would. The real changes that would actually ADD to the games would be gameplay mechanic additions, so lets stick to discussing the things that actually matter, shall we?
And let's be clear here, the issue being discussed is a gender select option for the protagonist of Zelda U. That's not really 'changing' things as much as it is adding an option. I'm going to mock everyone so vehemently opposed to that idea just as I would mock people against adding the option to remap the controls.
I agreed that in Zelda it would be fine!
But the fact that you consider gender as trivial and mutable as a control scheme is a perfect example of why this IS a heavily political position when taken in the more general form. I'm willing to accept that you don't personally consider it political. But I would suggest that that's probably because you don't realise that you're making assumptions that other people disagree with.
In any case closed-mindedness is commonly expressed in unwillingness or resistance to change.
And gullibility is commonly expressed as a willingness to accept any new idea you're fed. We really need to do better than trying to define ourselves to be correct on these issues. (which is what you're doing by reaching for emotionally loaded buzzwords like closed-minded)
Gender can be political, obviously; everything can be political. But only if we make it so. So, in the context of the gender of the protagonist in Zelda, how about we don't bring up contemporary US politics, yeah? I don't know that mean wages for either gender in the same positions has much relevancy here.
Gender doesn't matter much in physical reality, many humans make it matter via their social prejudices. So I'd like a game like Zelda, where gender roles aren't integral to the characters in a way that helps the story, to be fairly asexual. Not to mention femlink is something of a scene in the Zelda fandom, as seen in cosplay and fan art. It'd just be nice to see Nintendo take this step to try and be more inclusive. And let's be clear here; I'm not talking about any quests, areas, mechanics; no real substantive content. Probably just a character skin at most.
Gender can be political, obviously; everything can be political. But only if we make it so. So, in the context of the gender of the protagonist in Zelda, how about we don't bring up contemporary US politics, yeah? I don't know that mean wages for either gender in the same positions has much relevancy here.
Gender doesn't matter much in physical reality, many humans make it matter via their social prejudices. So I'd like a game like Zelda, where gender roles aren't integral to the characters in a way that helps the story, to be fairly asexual. Not to mention femlink is something of a scene in the Zelda fandom, as seen in cosplay and fan art. It'd just be nice to see Nintendo take this step to try and be more inclusive. And let's be clear here; I'm not talking about any quests, areas, mechanics; no real substantive content. Probably just a character skin at most.
Lol well not being american, I very rarely bring US politics into anything. And yes, I don't want to make gender political but I think what you're seeing in arguments like this is some of us reacting to another agenda that IS making gender political and perhaps unfairly conflating that agenda with your own position.
And yes, on the specific issue of Zelda I agree. Link is pretty much gender neutral anyway so I'd have no problem with them doing a female option, if the demand is actually there. I'd be fairly skeptical that it is though. I really don't think many people care about the gender of the character they're playing. I certainly haven't considered it, except when reacting to arguments like this.
My objection was really the more general one. I was objecting to yours, and TingLz's, arguments that people object to this sort of thing purely as a kind of reactionary conservatism.
Gender can be political, obviously; everything can be political. But only if we make it so. So, in the context of the gender of the protagonist in Zelda, how about we don't bring up contemporary US politics, yeah? I don't know that mean wages for either gender in the same positions has much relevancy here.
Gender doesn't matter much in physical reality, many humans make it matter via their social prejudices. So I'd like a game like Zelda, where gender roles aren't integral to the characters in a way that helps the story, to be fairly asexual. Not to mention femlink is something of a scene in the Zelda fandom, as seen in cosplay and fan art. It'd just be nice to see Nintendo take this step to try and be more inclusive. And let's be clear here; I'm not talking about any quests, areas, mechanics; no real substantive content. Probably just a character skin at most.
I was objecting to yours, and TingLz's, arguments that people object to this sort of thing purely as a kind of reactionary conservatism.
Well, some people certainly react to this topic that way. Not necessarily here, but plenty of Zelda enthusiasts are plenty closed-minded.
And I cited US politics specifically because that's the political context I have and I don't want to presume that other nations have the same issues; though your country's politics certainly sounded similar to the US's.
Forums
Topic: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
Posts 1,401 to 1,420 of 15,166
Please login or sign up to reply to this topic