Topic: The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom

@Sisilly_G,

Those are interesting ideas.

@Tyranexx,

About those enemies: Yes, that happened to me too 1 or two times. Just when you almost had defeated tough enemies, it was so annoying lol!

@Henmii Yep, the problem came in with tackling tough groups of enemies and then needing to go back and clean house again.

So I've not really posted much about Tears of the Kingdom outside of my year end thread, even though I'm probably already 100 hours in.

I'm in my 3rd temple, and I am glad its more interesting than the first 2. The first 2 had their good parts and the original bosses and some other changes were good. The trip to get them I also found more interesting and involved than in the previous game, if not as exciting as how you got into them in that game. It at least felt more like a journey. But I can't help but feel despite the improvements, they're still in a lot of ways, the Divine Beasts again, except without the coolest part about the Divine Beasts where you can change them via the map. This is a mistake, even with any improvements in mind. The first thing that's felt like a notable disappointment in this game, that I didn't expect.

But this 3rd temple, is probably my favorite attempt, from both games, to make the big Zelda dungeon make sense in this style of game. it's still not a replacement for what we had but I do quite like this one, even if I got stumped for quite a while on a puzzle, once or twice.

@kkslider5552000
I used to think the temples were a big improvement over the Beasts, but I recently went back to BotW and yea... I'm not so sure anymore.

Initially, I did enjoy having different environments and the unique bosses. But by the second and especially third temple I went to, it annoyed me that every. single. one. is the same design: large central hub with four-ish doors that need keys. Dungeon branches in four directions, go get the keys. Every. single. time. Ugh. Previous Zelda games have had dungeons like that, but it's never been ALL of them lol

I need to do another playthrough of TotK once I finish up my replay of BotW to really get my feelings straight.

The theming is nice, but the temples are pretty much the same as the divine beasts. Just with a new context and a more varied look.

I suppose it’s just a necessity that comes with giving the player so much freedom to explore: you can’t quite constrain them into following a set path through a maze like in the past games.

I do think the gerudo temple gets the closest to feeling a true Zelda dungeon though. It’s enclosed, dark, atmospheric, spooky, it has nice puzzles, and the fact it’s a pyramid means Ascend is trivial (because using it in most places just throws you out of the dungeon)

Aside from the unique theming, I thought that the boss fights were vastly improved. Colgera, Queen Gibdo and Marbled Gohma were particularly epic.

But yes, non-linear dungeons that you can cheese your way through using Zonai powers and devices just doesn't satisfy like the better dungeons from Skyward Sword. There's probably more fun to be had if you don't just brute force the puzzles though.

I'm just not a fan of how the devs only see things in extremes. They don't understand that people want a balance between freedom and linearity. Skyward Sword was far too linear, and BotW/TotK are far too open. There needs to be a balance where the game still has limitations, but you can do stuff in any order. Something like Link Between Worlds, but for a 3D game.

I mean I disagree with ALBW, because my first playthrough of that game had the most random difficulty curves in the world thanks to when I went to certain dungeons that meant I kept going from too difficult to too easy, and the item rental system was both a worse version of BOTW undoing linear item progression and Skyward Sword adding upgrades to items.

So I've heard Elden Ring has like segments where it just turns into more linear (or at least far less open) Dark Souls areas, or at least something to that affect. That feels like the ideal way to do things, like you play a mostly open world game and then you get to a town and can go do a 3+ hour linear Zelda main quest-line. Like it these games try to do that, and they have their moments, but its not the same.

But to me, I feel like they could pull it off if they just added that extra 20% to what they already have. Like the temple I just did needed a few more enemy encounters, a better hook and a genuinely new item to use and it'd fit well enough with the more linear Zelda temples. I dunno, I feel like there's gotta be a good compromise to add exciting items beyond the first few hours and randomly finding things.

Also while the story is generally better than last time, I still prefer the main story in previous 3D Zeldas, by far. They try but its not Zelda and Groose and Impa in Skyward Sword, its not Midna and Zant, its not the pirates or endearing temple partners in Wind Waker, god knows in every way except somber atmosphere and one specific quirk of what happens to certain towns its not Majora's Mask (but what is?). That's not even getting to the limitations of "well we have to assume every main quest is someone's first" storytelling that doesn't make up for a lack of forward narrative momentum, even in that context its not as good.

But guys it has voice acting now!!!11!!!!!!11! Yeah this experiment has underwhelmed, Zelda clearly did not need voice acting, we're two games in, can we all admit this now? Playing the Link's Awakening remake was a good reminder of that, the voice acting is irrelevant to a Zelda game story's quality.

My issue is mainly just how BotW/TotK is designed with the idea of "You can do anything at any time." in mind. It is effectively just a sandbox game with a barebones story tacked onto it. The freedom creates a boring world and boring narrative, making it to where you could just play any other open world sandbox game and get a better experience. Minecraft has mods, No Man's Sky has exploration of planets. TotK has Zonai parts that the game doesn't even really want you to use, as its more efficient not utilizing them most times.

Out of the dungeons in this new formula, I think the Lightning Temple gets the closest to actually being similar to a traditional Zelda dungeon whilst keeping the same format. You have the whole intro section which felt like it was ripped directly out of one of the more linear Zeldas of old. You have the overall atmosphere which feels pretty dire and haunting. The whole mirror shield puzzles were pretty good as well. The only thing I feel like the dungeon was missing was a mini-boss or two.

I feel like if they stick to what the Lighting Temple did, then they have something good in place. However, they probably won't. Especially given the developers tend to do things in extremes. Its why I've fallen out of this series after a few months of seeing dev interviews. They make it clear that they don't intend on toning down the open ended exploration, and they effectively called people out for being "nostalgia blind" for the older games. It feels like the team slightly lost their way. I say this as someone who did enjoy BotW for what it was.

The story in this game suffers more because of the game's overall structure. That, and the developers forgot that just because a person can do the dungeons in any order they wish doesn't mean that you have to repeat the same cutscene for every single dungeon. It feels like they don't even look at other open world games with narratives that change depending on where you go first. Its like they ignore their own games that do this (Link Between Worlds). There's a way to make a game where one cutscene will play depending on which area you go first, with other cutscenes being made for if you go there after. However, they decide to just do the same "Sacred Stones.. Demon King.." stuff on every single dungeon.

Then the world design. The world design hurts. It feels like the devs didn't even try to make the game different from the original. Sure, you have caves. You have sky islands. You have the depths. However, all of this content is mostly just copied and pasted. There's only a few actual decent sky islands dotted around in the skies. A few which actually feel like they're worth going to, as they have unique puzzles or unique things to see. All the rest are just the same few clusters copied and pasted all over the skies. The depths is the exact same. It is just the same biome all through-out, unless you end up going underneath Death Mountain. The areas dotted around this area are all just the same few Zonai mines, and that's effectively it. Enemies are all reskins of previous enemies, aside from about two actual unique ones. Caves are literally the same for the most part as well. Sure, the layout might be different.. but after a while it feels like most of them are pretty much just filler made for the devs to claim that they filled the world out. Made for the sake of having content. The only few really worth doing are the ones that give you clothing, or the ones that have a shrine located within them. Other than that, there's only a few unique caves in the game.

It just feels like this game is a bloated mess, and it makes me upset that this is what the future of the series is. It feels like an insult, not even getting into the lore portions. The lore portions are something I don't even want to touch, since I could write a novel based on the disappointment of that alone. Especially given how it feels like the devs want to make TotK and BotW it's own rebooted continuity, and yet also want the games to be connected at the same time. When they conflict with everything that was kept consistent within the series. Its just frustrating.

Sometimes that's just how it goes. There are plenty of my favourite series from years gone by that do nothing for me any more and it feels even worse when the wrong turn they've taken - from my perspective at least - has gone down to great critical acclaim elsewhere.

There generally isn't any going back either, so I guess you've just got to move on and find other games that do it for you. With many other developers out there still working to the classic Zelda formula, at least it's not too hard to find them. Maybe take a look at the likes of Death's Door, Hob, Hyper Light Drifter, Turnip Boy and Tunic.

I presume that Nintendo will also continue to remake the older games for new hardware and maybe they'll throw someone a bone to make a new one. It seems pretty clear that the future of the series will be in the image of BotW and TotK though, so there's not really much point in expecting them to do anything other than that.

@Matt_Barber Yeah. Unfortunately since these games sold well, there's no going back. I just wish the devs saw a more nuanced place for the series.. and not one that has to be one extreme or the other. The issue with games that are like Zelda is that they don't have the exact charm that makes me like the series originally. Its the same for the "Animal Crossing-likes." There's something that Nintendo does with these series that no one is able to easily replicate, and it sucks that Nintendo keeps alienating their original audiences with a lot of their games.

I have 16 more shrines to beat.

I'm always sympathetic to people who don't like the new Zelda, because the old Zelda was so unbelievably great, so often, and replacing that with another open world game was a change I would've been FURIOUS about if I didn't love it. But I just don't think its a big issue with Zelda. This game came 6 years after the last one. Like is Nintendo just gonna...stop making other Zelda games between them? Of course not, and they haven't, and they won't. And basically every other Switch Zelda game is both different from these games and different from each other.

I mean, it has been far too long since a traditional NEW Zelda game. Loved the LA remake but its still not a new game. I'd absolutely kill for a new one, and if the 2D team isn't working on one for release sometime relatively soon, I'd be disappointed. But...at least it gets more games. They exist. There is no shortage of games and game series where you either get a new type of game and/or nothing. If you don't like the new God of War and miss the old one, you get nothing. Crash Bandicoot got one new platformer in 15 years (so not including the mediocre beat-em-ups, which is what 3D platformers somehow turned into in the 360 generation), and that's already gone for...a MOBA I think? Ask old school Shining Force fans about their series, I dare you. Paper Mario took 2 more games following up on the one no one liked before they decided to merely put out a remake, while the other Mario RPG series declined to the point of ending a studio's existence.

We will get a new Zelda game that is a traditional Zelda game, at some point, I'm sure. Which puts it in a better position than every other game that's like Zelda, which all died, half the time with a cliffhanger that will never be resolved. The only one that came back is Darksiders, AFAIK as a Souls-like instead (which is what replaced Zelda-like games, so that makes sense at least).

@kkslider5552000 Sadly, the handheld team merged into the home console team. The only chances of us getting a new 2D Zelda game is if Grezzo is the one developing it. Even then, I doubt Grezzo will be allowed to make a new game after Triforce Heroes flopped.

On top of that, I don't exactly hate the direction of Zelda's current trajectory. I liked BotW. I just hate how the team only sees things in extremes and refuses to compromise at times. They either see things as ultra linear or super free, with no ground where they can just have their cake and eat it too.

This could mean nothing? Like all of Nintendo handheld and console divisions merged, so this is just a thing I would expect to happen rather than an actual sign of anything happening with anything.

I do strongly agree with this though. if not for Zelda specifically, than certainly for AAA gaming the past 15 years. One of my least favorite trends for AAA gaming, probably moreso a decade ago, was that every other game felt like it had to be either the size of a literal US state or a hallway simulator. The two genders. :V

I mean, regardless, this entire generation Nintendo backtracked a lot on controversial directions they've taken various series. There's many things Nintendo is willing to bring back, that's practically what they're known for. Again especially since...they nearly have no choice if they want more than 2 Zeldas per decade to be released. They might have other spinoff ideas, but in the long term, it's either make classic Zelda or release fewer successful games for no reason at all. (also I think Link's Awakening remake outsold all the spinoff Zeldas anyway)

Picked the game back up after putting it on hold last summer/fall. I still have the Volcano and Gerudo Desert temples to do. It's taken a bit to reacquaint myself with somethings, like throwing items, fusing items, and I totally forgot where Hestu was (Hestu isn't at Lookout Landing anymore, he's at the deku tree.)

@WoomyNNYes hope you have been having fun with the game!

I'm just about to wrap up my third playthrough.

Much like with Breath of the Wild, I get to a point where the remaining content is just too grindy, and it's more fun to start afresh.

Oh, wow. I was always scared to tangle with the Yiga Clan in the depths. So I had been avoiding them. I didn't realize how easy it was to topple their fortresses & unlock the chests & a shcematic [spoiler]you just have to take out one guy[/spioler]. And I didn't realize their hideouts show off different cool driving/flying machines, zonai weapons, and traps you can build. Hideout after hideout, they've been a progression showing more and more quirky, cool, innovative stuff. I was such a fool to avoid them.😆 Now I want to find all the Yiga hideout/fortresses!