Topic: Super Mario 3D All-Stars

I think my only issue with Galaxy so far is that comets essentially hijack an entire galaxy (no option to go after any other stars) when they're orbiting. It wouldn't be so much an issue if they didn't show up until after you collected all 3 of a galaxy's main Stars, but there's been a couple times where I do a galaxy's first mission and then I can't immediately do the next because of a comet.

At the end of the day it's a small issue in an otherwise pretty flawless game. I'm 45 Stars into it (currently on FreezeFlame Galaxy) and it feels like 64 & Sunshine were essentially test runs on what Mario could be in 3D, and while they have some unique aspects I appreciate (and I think Sunshine in particular is still a great game), while Galaxy is the culmination of all that knowledge to create the definitive 3D Mario, IMO.

The creative innovation of the previous 3D titles lives on in the unique gravity mechanics & imaginative locales, and while there's still some non-linearity to the proceedings (you don't have to collect every Star in a solar system to move on, and galaxies often have hidden/alternate Stars), objectives call back to the tight focused platforming of the 2D titles with a minimum of the aimless wandering around you could get yourself into in the previous 3D titles), and classical elements like "?" Blocks, Fire Flowers, and proper Bowser's Castle levels make a triumphant debut in a 3D title, forming a cohesive whole that's fresh, immediately familiar, & distinctly "Mario" in a way that the previous two titles didn't fully commit to.

Plus, I really like the background lore behind Rosalina, and find the storybook segments a nice mix of emotional & mysterious.

@Dezzy It definitely wasn't better than 64. I didn't own an N64 at that point either, so all I had was Croc

@Dezzy What did you feel was better than Mario 64 about Spyro? I've never played them but was considering picking up the Switch collection as I'm a big platformer fan.

@Yosher I didn't say that they're not worth bothering with - I particularly like Woolly World and I think Yoshi's Story is under-rated.

I just think that Yoshi's Island is absolutely a link in the chain between Mario World and Mario 64. I think you have to play Yoshi's Island to understand that Mario was on a particular trajectory. Mario World was far more about poking around for secret exits compared to Mario 3 which was just pure action - Yoshi's Island took it further. Some of the more important ideas on display in Mario 64 were trialed in 2D on Yoshi's Island (the red coins scavenger hunt, the ground pound to land you precisely, the more malleable approach to health etc.). The later Yoshi games iterate on some of the concepts from Yoshi's Island but I don't think they pass anything significant back to the Mario series.

@ToadBrigade I think Yoshi's Island is an absolute top tier Nintendo game but honestly - in 2020 -I'm not sure that Yoshi's Island works in quite the way that it once did. It's a combination of scavenger hunt and skill... but the scavenger hunt is trivial in a world of YouTube walk throughs and as a skill based game it's not as tight as - say - Mario 3.

It's definitely intended to be played linearly whilst not getting 100% and then going back after finishing to improve your score later.

@StuTwo Okay, I totally misunderstood what you said then. Apologies! And you're quite right and I honestly never really even saw it that way, I guess Yoshi's Island SNES was more important to the Mario series than people think.

Maybe this is why the original was never reached again in terms of quality. This game was treated as a Mario game, as opposed to the later games which were all treated as Yoshi games. And most developers who worked on the Yoshi games just didn't think it as important as Mario. Huh.

@Yosher Not a problem.

The original Yoshi's Island was helmed by Nintendo's absolute top talent. If you look at the list of directors - they basically all worked together on Mario 3, Mario World, a Link to the Past and Link's Awakening before Yoshi's Island. They almost all stayed together afterwards to make Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time too (some were involved with Yoshi's Story). It's the absolute dream team of game development and they were all very experienced and working together with technology they understood intimately in the genre they had literally invented.

I've no doubt that some of the ideas in Yoshi's Island were probably floating about in internal discussions between Miyomoto and Tezuka and the rest in some form for years beforehand. Some parts feel like they were ideas left over from Mario World development and some feel like first draft ideas that the 3D Mario games run with in bigger ways.

Later Yoshi games were typically made by 'b' teams or outsourced entirely. They're often good for what they are but they often feel like level packs for Yoshi's Island made by people who don't quite have the same singular vision and gut feel for level design as the team that made the original. Woolly World I think has a lot of thought put into it, how it wants to provide a different experience to the original game.

I thought the levels in Spyro were a lot more interesting (and there are lots more of them). I massively preferred the platforming controls and mechanics. 3D Mario games got a lot better in that regard in later years, but I never enjoyed the controls in 64.
Also, even on the PS1 I thought Spyro was just a more graphically attractive game. Which has obviously increased even moreso with the remastered trilogy. Even the Switch version of the remastered trilogy looks excellent.

@RR529 well put. Just put an hour in this for the first time on the Switch and it feels just as amazing as 13 years ago. Controls seem to be slightly better than they were on the Wii.

Btw, I recently saw Wii Galaxy on a 55inch 4k tv. The Switch version looks much better on my 55inch 4k. Admittedly, it's not the same TV type, but I was positively surprised!

I'd played all the games to death before playing 3D All Stars, and I gotta say even though each holds up in its own way remarkably well (64 has definitely aged but its far from unplayable), Galaxy was actually the least fun to replay - despite being arguably the best and certainly the most polished of the lot.

I think it's because Galaxy is so tightly directed that once you've been through it once, there's really not a ton you can do any different on the replay. Sunshine has a ton of jank and plenty of poorly designed sections, but I find it a much more fun world to navigate and jump around in, finding inventive ways to utilize Mario's larger selection of moves to bound around. For most of Galaxy you're on a set path with a relatively limited moveset, so whilst I absolutely adored it on the first few runs, revisiting it now was a little dry.

So, which of the games do you think has the best hub world?

While I think Galaxy is the best game overall, I've come to the conclusion that Sunshine has the best hub.

Between the numerous Shines & Blue Coins to collect, Delfino Plaza is almost like a main level in and of itself (though this may have been done to pad things out a bit as it has a smaller number of Worlds compared to the other games), and while it's secret worlds are a bit more telegraphed than 64's (usually accessed through green pipes), some are well hidden (like the one on the cliff side, or especially the Pachinko level, which isn't in a pipe at all), resulting in quite a few surprises.

Peach's Castle in 64 has the best hiding spots for it's secret levels (especially the one in the room with Jolly Roger Bay's painting), but is otherwise pretty dull, IMO. The Observatory in Galaxy is thematically the best of the bunch (and I like the story segments in the library), however there aren't many secrets as it's one off levels are blatantly telegraphed with the hungry Lumas and the inactive green launch star.

@RR529 I'd say Delfino Plaza. It's definitely the most lively of all the hub worlds in the 3D Mario games and as you mentioned, it's almost a full level in of itself. There's a lot to do to get all the Shine Sprites and Blue Coins in it. Love the music too!

I do have a very soft spot for Peach's Castle though. It's easy to navigate and the way they have all the secret levels tucked in is genius. Always loved the feeling of getting enough stars to access more worlds, too.

@RR529 Definitely Delfino Plaza, but even though Mario Galaxy's is kinda boring, it covers it up with a really good song.

@MarioLover92

Good question.

In terms of mood and music, the Observatory, no contest.
In terms of structure, secrets, and ease of navigation, Peach's Castle.
In terms of being an all-rounder, Delfino Plaza.

The Observatory loses some points because there's not a whole lot to do or explore in it. But it's transcendent from an aesthetic point of view.

@Lindhardt @Beaucine Yeah I agree with you both on the Comet Observatory's music! It's really beautiful and I like how it builds up as you're unlocking more areas.

@Yosher
Yeah i love Yoshi's wooly world! Crafted world not so much. It's okay but the music was bland and the game felt pathetically easy. I'm curious about Yoshi's new island on 3DS as it's the only one i haven't played. Being the Yoshi fan that you apparently are i assume you've played it. Opinions please?

Yeah same. Sunshine and Galaxy both use their hub worlds to set the tone and theme of the game, which is beneficial, but the Sunshine hub world also doubles as a level itself, whereas Galaxy doesn't. So Sunshine wins.

And 64 has a good hub world but the game has less of a consistent theme in general.

@Zeldafan79 I'd stay far far away from Yoshi's New Island. Where Woolly World felt like a love letter to all Yoshi fans, New Island felt like the complete opposite. I hated it. I only still have it cause I wanna keep a complete Yoshi collection otherwise I would have sold it and I otherwise never sell my games.

... some people seem to enjoy it though dk your mileage may vary, but I couldn't stand it. The music in particular will make your ears bleed. Just look up "yoshi clan" on YouTube if you want an example of that garbage.

Side note I also hate how the only new song in Smash Ultimate was a song from that game. Granted they made it sound kinda nice there but why not a song from Woolly World.

The only good thing about New Island was the artwork for it, that stuff was really adorable. Way too good for the game it was created for.

@Yosher
Okay sounds like i can skip that one. Good to know. Anyway speaking of woolly world i really love the music in that one! Made crafted world sound like crap. Here's probably my favorite track in the entire game! It's so cheery and happy sounding i could just listen to it forever!

I'd still have to go with 64 having the best hub world. I mean, Peach's Castle - it's just classic, and the many little secrets from levels to Yoshi are just so much fun.

@Zeldafan79 Yeah Woolly World has really good music! Crafted World isn't as good on that department because the composer for Woolly World left Good Feel (the company responsible for both games) after Woolly World was finished. Said composer even commented on the low quality soundtrack of Crafted World and I think even said that they should have simply been hired for the project again. Which I can only agree with. Crafted World's soundtrack wasn't necessarily bad though, it was just mediocre. If you want outright bad then compare it to New Island music.

Also, on topic: The best hub world is pretty much a tie for all of them for me. Peach's Castle is super iconic, Delfino Plaza has the most things to do, and the Comet Observatory is just downright majestic in a way you rarely see in Mario games. They all have their own unique touch. If you throw Mario Galaxy 2 into three equation though I think all three beat that game's hub world. Not that Starship Mario was bad, it was just a bit bland in comparison, but some people prefer that more straight to the point approach. And in that aspect it was still pretty good.