At risk of starting another argument because I know this general topic is one where we furiously disagree...
Well too bad, another argument you have because I feel strongly about the opposite view so buckle in (although I consider it more like a debate than an argument because an argument sounds violent and confrontational which is not what I aim to achieve, I'm trying to logically and objectively justify my viewpoint. It's unfortunate that it's turned into these long back and forths though).
I don't really agree. Ocarina of Time 3D was, IMO, pretty much spot on for a remaster. If you're going to remake a game then it needs to be at least somewhat constrained by the limitations of the original game.
I mean you could argue that even the 3D version still feels somewhat constrained. The areas feel too cramped and empty, especially by modern standards. And even as you mention below that some of the areas replace static 2D background with proper 3D environments, in some cases that still isn't enough. Best example there would be Castle Town. Yes, they made Castle Town look more like a 3D area in the 3DS version, but it still doesn't play like one. You still have a top down, sweeping camera that you can't control. The area still feels too small, even smaller than Kakariko Village for crying out loud. It's supposed to be the capital city where the royal family is, shouldn't it be the largest and a dynamic, bustling city with things to do? Sure doesn't feel that way, and the N64 likely couldn't make the area big and complex enough to realize that. And again with Hyrule Field, it's just a big empty field with a handful of enemies, a handful of hidden underground areas and Gold Skulltulas peppered around, and a Poe hunting quest. For its time it was a wonderful showcase of the N64's ability to display open 3D environments. But now? That's not really enough to play around with. It needs far more there. More enemies, more puzzles, more collectibles, more sidequests, more hidden areas/mini-dungeons. And it should probably be scaled up to accommodate that. So that's another constraint that's not just graphical. Graphics are not the end all be all of a game's capabilities.
If you want an Ocarina of Time that wasn't constrained by the limitations of the N64 that game is called Twilight Princess
I mentioned this in the OoT thread I linked (although it wasn't in that post I quoted, it was later in the thread) that TP is NOT an adequate substitute for OoT, it's its own thing in a lot of ways. I mean it has some vague similarities, sure, but so does every Zelda game, Zelda as a series is kind of built to repeat the same vague story beats over and over again and retell a similar story in a different way. I mean think about it, a lot of locations are continually remade over and over again such as Kakariko Village, Lake Hylia, and Death Mountain. But reusing that stuff doesn't really make it an OoT game. Then just about every Zelda game would be an OoT game. TP might be most similar to OoT because other 3D Zelda games did wacky and very different things, but that doesn't make it an OoT game.
When people say they want an OoT remake, they mean something a little more specific. They want to see things that are specific to OoT, locations like Kokiri Forest, Goron City, and Gerudo Valley, dungeons like Inside the Great Deku Tree, Lord Jabu-Jabu's Belly, or the elemental temples, characters like Saria, Darunia, and Ruto, plotlines such as the spiritual stone and sage quests, gameplay elements such as the time travel, etc. None of that existed in TP, it had completely different locations, plotlines, settings, and characters themed around the Twilight Realm. You really need an actual remake of OoT to accomplish that kind of stuff. Or at the very least a spiritual successor like ALBW, ALBW was technically a sequel and different game from ALttP but so much was recycled from the original that it screams Totally Not an ALttP Remake. I would be satisfied if OoT received the ALBW treatment instead of a more ambitious remake, but either way what I think the specific elements of this game need to be redone in a modern game built from the ground up on modern hardware that doesn't suffer from the size, scale, and complexity restraints to its design that the N64 games did.
But if they were to do that the main reason for me wanting that is that as it stands the only version of those games technically available now are the N64 versions on NSO. Which aren't as good
Frankly half of this issue would be solved if they just had a second screen so that 3DS games could be put on NSO. If we could play an NSO port of OoT 3D? Then there'd be less need for further graphical enhancements. Gameplay wise though, just throwing old games on the NSO would be better than remakes. It'd be more convenient and arguably less costly (yes you'd have a yearly fee but you'd be paying for ALL of the games you'd play not just one, although it'd be even more ideal if you could just pay to download them individually like with Xbox Live) if they were just there instead of having to waste resources remaking and re-remaking and re-re-remaking old games just to make the game 10% better looking than the last version.
And, frankly, that's my view for a lot of these sort of titles. It's not really about adding something to these games that wasn't there before. It's more about modernising them while still maintaining the core of what made the game good. And the ones where that is most important are the ones that have aged the worst, N64 in particular has aged horribly, or for systems where the games are otherwise unavailable to play
Sometimes adding something to the game IS modernizing them. More modern games generally have more open areas with more content, so following suit does make them more in line with present day experiences. My complaints about Hyrule Field are a good example of that, in BotW and TotK the open field areas have encampments, puzzles, NPCs, sidequests, materials to collect, etc. In OoT the open field areas have... mainly just pretty scenery. I've seen some complaints about BotW feeling empty, but I'm pretty sure you could take any given slice of BotW's open world about the size of OoT Hyrule Field and find more in it to do than OoT Hyrule Field itself. That's another form of modernization that more modern hardware affords.
Likewise, there's also some pacing issues that might affect the game's flow and make it feel too short/rushed. I mentioned the middle of the game as a good example of that, you pretty much go from obtaining the Zora's Sapphire to the Forest Temple and all of the plot elements in between in the span of what... about 15 minutes if you speedrun? That's a LOT of plot that's thrown at you in such a short period of time and the writing and game design would be greatly improved if they space some of that out a bit more and let you take in each individual plot point and the sense of urgency and/or tension for them all.
I don't think you're quite understanding my reasoning for these suggestions. More content is always good, but I'm suggesting these things for a reason. It's because I think they WOULD improve the core of the game because there's something about them that feels lacking or outdated.
So to repeat my post from above..... I feel like the DS Zeldas and A Link Between Worlds should be at the top of the list if we were to dig into that well. The N64 Zeldas? eh, maybe. The 3DS remakes were good enough and I still have my copies so I'm in no huge rush but given they're technically not available anymore I don't think it'd be a bad move. But Wind Waker.... just drop it on the Switch already, as is, no change required (although maybe turn off the bloom effect this time around?)
I mean, if they can get the DS Zeldas to work with a normal control scheme I'd be open to at least trying them, the touch only controls are what put me off to them.
ALBW is another one where I'd just rather have it on NSO instead of a remake. I can't think of a single thing that needs improving and the graphics would probably not be improved significantly since it was on recent hardware, so I don't see a Switch 2 remaster feeling remotely different from the original 3DS game.
I'm not quite as familiar with WW, I never played it because I saw from the videos that the open explorable stuff was just the boring empty sea and the islands and dungeons were all painfully linear (maybe if they gave THAT game the ALBW treatment and made the islands less linear and gave you more to do in the open seas, that might be more fun). But I have heard from other fans that there were some cut dungeons in that game that were never added back and it sounds like there's pacing issues in that game as a result as well. So again, I don't think just copy/pasting the Wii U version and tweaking some graphics stuff is the way to go there.
@skywake
I'm getting a Switch 2 pretty much no matter what. I can't really think of a reason why I wouldn't get it.
If you're just talking about people in general, sure... but I think this "tech demo" approach weighing heavily on beautiful graphics in Prime 4 is just a weird one for you to be using for Nintendo. How many people (not us on the forum, but like, normal people) picked up a Switch because the graphics looked amazing?
@Bolt_Strike
I'd argue that once you start changing things to the extent that you're saying they should be changed? They stop becoming remasters. At some point along that scale it's a new game entirely. And I feel like the scale of changes you're saying you'd want out of a OoT HD flirt with that boundary. And sure, I wouldn't be opposed to that but.... if you're going that far why not just make it an entirely new game?
The entire point of a good remaster, like the recent one for Super Mario RPG, is to drag dated elements kicking and screaming into more modern hardware. Make the game look and feel as if it was made today. Improve the controls, modernise the UI, improve the visuals. Replace pre-rendered elements and 2D work with fully 3D elements and so on. But do all of that while retaining the spirit of the original game. For people revisiting the game should be as they remember it being, for new players it should feel like a new game. Ocarina of Time 3D was a master-class in how to do that
And I think the reason why they should do these things is obvious. They should do these kinds of remasters when the older content becomes less accessible. Whether due to the dated nature of some of these games or because this content isn't available outside of tracking down old hardware and games or sailing the high seas
Like Wind Waker HD. You say it should be more than just the Wii U version again right? But how is someone who doesn't have the game already supposed to access Wind Waker? Track down a Wii U with a disk? Maybe a Gamecube and a copy on there? More likely they go to sites that I cannot link here to achieve this goal. And what about the DS games? For those you're basically forced to track down an old DS now
With Ocarina of Time? I mean, as it stands the only way to play it on current hardware is via NSO. Which is fine, I still think the N64 versions are serviceable. However it is a shame that there was a version that was objectively better which is now completely inaccessible to new players. Short of the used market or, again, sailing the high seas. So I'm not entirely opposed to a "boring" remake that "does nothing" but improve the visuals. Just to make it accessible again......
......... I just think Ocarina of Time isn't as inaccessible as some other titles they could tackle. Even some other Zelda titles they could tackle. I'd take a remaster of Phantom Hourglass for Switch with two control scheme options over Ocarina of Time again. Just straight up give me full touch controls as an option in portable mode and then map the non-combat touch screen stuff to a pointer when docked. No new content necessarily just a modernised presentation and a legitimate way to play it again on modern hardware
And if you're opposed to that kind of release? Don't buy it. I don't need more effort than this for remasters. If they're going to go much further than the OoT style remake they should just make a new game
@rallydefault
When the Switch launched the portable alternatives were the 3DS, the dead Vita and smartphones. People most definitely picked up the Switch because the visuals were impressive. They don't do it now, now they buy it because the library is deep. But at launch the jump in fidelity for portable hardware was a big deal
And with Switch 2 it'll be a big deal also. It'll be one of the key reasons to pick it up early on. Metroid Prime 4 is almost surely one of the 2 or 3 most expensive titles Nintendo has lined up for the next couple of years. There's a very high chance it's the most visually impressive outright. It has the opportuinity to be a key title in selling one of the key messages for the Switch 2's launch. And while it's no Mario or Zelda if there are ~10 titles from Nintendo in 2025, as there was in 2017, Metroid Prime 4 probably lands right in the middle in terms of sales
It's a high budget, high fidelity, entirely new title scheduled to land in the next couple of years. There can't be that many more of those Nintendo has up their sleeve. When there's new hardware coming out you save those for boosting the new hardware. The Switch swansong can be a less headline grabbing title. Save Metroid for stacking ontop of Mario Kart 9 and new 3D Mario in the ad they'll inevitably blast out everywhere when promoting Switch 2. Use a Wind Waker HD, which lacks the impressiveness but has more sales potential, to keep Switch ticking along over the holidays
Worth noting in terms of marketing perception and how important it is. Fun fact, the Switch is the second 64bit console Nintendo made. The first was the N64 but after the N64 the GBA, GC, DS, Wii, 3DS and even the Wii U were all 32bit. It was only with the Switch that they jumped to a 64bit CPU
But back to the point, why did they bother making the N64 64bit? It wasn't for performance, it wasn't for the ability to address more memory, it wasn't for the additional precision. If anything the fact that 64bit instructions on the N64 were supported were potentially detrimental to performance. And it almost surely made the hardware more expensive to produce. So why?
..... marketing. The progression from 8 through 16 to 32bit computing was a HUGE deal. It mattered. It was hugely visible to end users. You go from 256 colours to 65,000 colours. Or from being able to address 10s of KB of memory to being able to address more memory than you could afford to put in the hardware. So if in that climate you put in your marketing that hey, our competition (Playstation, Saturn) is only 32bit. But we have a 64bit so we're obviously better. Didn't matter that it was meaningless, it was good marketing
Perception is king. So yeah, Metroid Prime 4? They've spent a lot of money on it. It'll look good. I think they'll want people to think of it as a Switch 2 title. Completely meaningless, from a actual software point of view it'll be a Switch game that has some higher resolution modes or a HDR setting or something. It won't really matter technically. But in terms of marketing? Doesn't matter. Doesn't even matter if people buy the game. What will matter is how people will perceive the value of Switch 2 in those first ~6 or so months
I have a feeling that Metroid Prime 4 will be one of those games where people will call it as best fits their narrative (like all that nonsense about avoiding calling Switch a hybrid to try to fit it in either a home console or handheld pigeon hole! - I mean, it just goes to show, you can have the best messaging in the history of the company and STILL confuse folk lol.)
If it releases for Switch, but built in mind for Switch 2 so it upscales, (i.e - one version at retail) I can see arguements already wether or not it's a cross gen title or an og Switch game hahaha! So we could have a state where the console acts as a Pro model for the og Switch AND a next gen console for newer titles. And they wouldn't really have to release 2 versions of each game during a typical cross gen phase. (No idea f that made sense, but it would be rather effiicient!)
@GrailUK
Oh, without question there will be endless pages spent on places such of this with people attempting to classify one game or the other as being for Switch or Switch 2. Almost surely the same with the hardware itself. And they'll bundle them on one side or the other depending on what fits whatever barrow they're trying to push. All pointless obviously
Even so, Joe average is going to engage with this stuff through advertisement and retail placement. And it's in that sense that I think the timing of Prime 4 matters somewhat. Like in that original Switch reveal trailer they had Breath of the Wild, Skyrim, Mario Kart 8, 2K NBA, Odyssey and Splatoon. I could see a similar thing happening for Switch 2 but with a new 3D Mario, Mario Kart 9, and Prime 4 being the Nintendo side of that equation. And if they do that Joe Average will see Prime 4 as a thing they'll want to buy the Switch 2 for
also much agreement that the lines between these generations will be super fuzzy
@skywake What I will say is, if they can release it with Call of Duty then Metroid Prime 4 won't get a look in. If they are wanting to cover genres, then proven AAA is the way to go for broader appeal. All depends on the timing.
I never drive faster than I can see. Besides, it's all in the reflexes.
@skywake
Maybe it's just me, but I never really approached the Switch with graphics in mind, to be honest. I don't know, I just don't really agree with that characterization of buyers for the original Switch around launch. I guess BotW was (and still is) beautiful and impressive to run on the hardware, though, so perhaps you have a point.
But the market is entirely different now. There are tons. TONS. of handhelds out there, most of which (really all of which) have graphical capabilities far beyond the Switch and most likely par/beyond even the Switch 2.
I just think it would be a shame if Prime 4 is a Switch 2 exclusive and comes out at launch or shortly after launch when people are busy with the new Mario game. Mario just eats other franchises. Look at what happened to Sonic Superstars or whatever when it launched next to Mario Wonder. Dread seemed to almost be Metroid's breaking out moment to the mainstream, but I feel it still fell a bit short, and the sales reflect that. Prime 4 has been hyped amongst the faithful for so many years, I just don't see Nintendo not wanting to give it the biggest audience possible and the spotlight for as long as possible, then re-release it upgraded on Switch 2 down the line.
@rallydefault
To clarify my argument, because there seems to be some confusion. I don't think Metroid Prime 4 will be Switch 2 only and I don't think it will or that it would be wise to launch it alongside a 3D Mario. What I'm saying is that I think it would be better to launch after the Switch 2 exists so that they can use it as one of a collection of titles to push Switch 2 with
The scenario that I think makes the most sense is something that doesn't really "sell" the performance jump for this year on Switch. Something 2D or a remaster of some kind. Wind Waker HD, Wario Land, something like that. Then Switch 2 in March/April next year with some combination of complimentary titles out of the gate. Probably Mario Kart 9, given that Kart prints money and the MK8 DLC has wound down now. Maybe a Wii Sports/Nintendo Land/1-2 Switch equivalent. But along side that evergreen or tech demo title they'll have some large adventure title like a Mario, Zelda, Metroid
But then some space as they drop maybe one title a month to fill out the rest of 2025. Spreading out the games in such a way that they're not leaving certain kinds of users waiting too long. Alternating between casual, core, rpg, party, platformer, fighter etc. All building up to another one or two major titlez for the 2025 holiday period. Maybe that's where Prime 4 pops up if that didn't appear at launch. Not unlike how with the Switch BotW launched it and Odyssey was the holiday game
..... because there's not a Zelda next year. There could be something else we don't know of sure and we're assuming there's a 3D Mario. Maybe there's DK or something. But what we know for sure is that Prime 4 is a thing so that's probably a fairly safe bet for a title to pad out that first year. Either at launch or at some other point in that early cycle
But yeah, 3D Mario would be huge. They will give it space. I'd go as far as saying that while I think Prime 4 this year doesnt make sense even that makes more sense than Metroid and Mario both being day 1
@GrailUK
Yes, probably. But at the same time I don't feel like the audiences of CoD and Metroid overlap that much. It's like saying that people won't watch Aliens because Transformers is on. Overall you're probably right but in terms of the relative scale of both but even so, the venn diagram is just two circles
Switch 2 launch window absolutely needs both a Nintendo game and a third party game which makes graphical and performance improvements really obvious. I don't know about CoD, if they could get something like one of the recent Final Fantasy games or Baldur's Gate 3 alongside Metroid Prime 4, they would have some nice coverage.
The next 3D Mario will likely be technically impressive as well, but similarly to Mario Wonder, people don't quite understand that more 'Cartoony' looking games can still be massive performance hogs so it's not necessarily a good showcase by itself.
I'd argue that once you start changing things to the extent that you're saying they should be changed? They stop becoming remasters. At some point along that scale it's a new game entirely. And I feel like the scale of changes you're saying you'd want out of a OoT HD flirt with that boundary. And sure, I wouldn't be opposed to that but.... if you're going that far why not just make it an entirely new game?
You have a very warped perception of this remake/new game scale, your "boundary" between the two is FAR on the remake side if you're saying they should do either OoT 3D style remakes or new games. So I guess by that logic Mario 64 DS is a new game because it included 3 extra characters and 30 extra stars? Or how about the recent Mario vs. Donkey Kong remake that included co-op and 2 new worlds? So the 80% of that game that's the same as the original doesn't count? Utterly ridiculous notion and you're missing a VERY broad range of possibilities in between.
The entire point of a good remaster, like the recent one for Super Mario RPG, is to drag dated elements kicking and screaming into more modern hardware. Make the game look and feel as if it was made today. Improve the controls, modernise the UI, improve the visuals. Replace pre-rendered elements and 2D work with fully 3D elements and so on. But do all of that while retaining the spirit of the original game. For people revisiting the game should be as they remember it being, for new players it should feel like a new game. Ocarina of Time 3D was a master-class in how to do that
Nah, the dated elements should stay in the past. It's going to make people not like those classic games. Older players are going to remember the games as not as good as they remembered and the nostalgia will be ruined and newer players are going to wonder what the older players see in this game and feel it's not as good as other modern games.
And I think the reason why they should do these things is obvious. They should do these kinds of remasters when the older content becomes less accessible. Whether due to the dated nature of some of these games or because this content isn't available outside of tracking down old hardware and games or sailing the high seas
Like Wind Waker HD. You say it should be more than just the Wii U version again right? But how is someone who doesn't have the game already supposed to access Wind Waker? Track down a Wii U with a disk? Maybe a Gamecube and a copy on there? More likely they go to sites that I cannot link here to achieve this goal. And what about the DS games? For those you're basically forced to track down an old DS now
With Ocarina of Time? I mean, as it stands the only way to play it on current hardware is via NSO. Which is fine, I still think the N64 versions are serviceable. However it is a shame that there was a version that was objectively better which is now completely inaccessible to new players. Short of the used market or, again, sailing the high seas. So I'm not entirely opposed to a "boring" remake that "does nothing" but improve the visuals. Just to make it accessible again......
The answer to all of these things is to just improve NSO so these systems aren't left in the dust for very long. Inaccessibility is no longer reason enough for a remake when you can just throw something up on a digital storefront or subscription service. And of course, make a new system that can better emulate DS/3DS/Wii U's setups to better play some of those games.
......... I just think Ocarina of Time isn't as inaccessible as some other titles they could tackle. Even some other Zelda titles they could tackle. I'd take a remaster of Phantom Hourglass for Switch with two control scheme options over Ocarina of Time again. Just straight up give me full touch controls as an option in portable mode and then map the non-combat touch screen stuff to a pointer when docked. No new content necessarily just a modernised presentation and a legitimate way to play it again on modern hardware
Having touch/pointer controls as an option would be fine, but I don't think many people would be interested in these games if that's the ONLY control option, that's a large part of what made these games controversial in the first place. Just make an option for a normal control scheme, especially for simple stuff like you know... walking and interacting with stuff. I love touch screens but some of these DS games (especially early in the DS' lifespan) took it too far and they were kind of cumbersome to control. PH and ST easily fall into this category, it'd be better if they could play more like OoT 3D and ALBW. Mainly keep it to map and menu stuff and maybe gimmicks, but if I want to give that game another chance, I'd want it to control a bit more normally.
I think an April Direct is still somewhat likely, although I'll wait for Pyoro before making assumptions. May has 2 games so we will most likely not see a Direct on top of that. Nintendo has plans for H2 of 2024, but they still need to reveal them.
Maybe we'll see a LM1 shadowdrop in an April Nintendo Direct, and then see a Next Gen announcement in early June along with possibly seeing some games for previously mentioned console around that time, with the next console releasing H1 2025
I think an April Direct is still somewhat likely, although I'll wait for Pyoro before making assumptions
We didn't get a Pyoro tweet today so that semi rules out next week. In theory there could be something the last week of April... I am very curious whether they will have something near the May 8 financial meeting or if they will just say 'new hardware in 2025' with no other info.
@Bolt_Strike
I personally don't see your distinction between SM64 DS and OOT 3D. Especially given you have previously discounted Link's Awakening HD and I would assume would dismiss the Deluxe Wii U ports. What you were describing for a "proper" OOT remake included entirely reworking areas and dungeons which, I'd argue, crosses the line into new game territory
@FishyS Guessing the latter. Feels like they were already shifting away from the Switch and the delay caught them with their pants down, that's why it feels like tumbleweeds in Nintendoville right now. I'd guess probably just minor tidbits until the full reveal of new hardware.
@skywake Have you not played 64 DS? That game has certainly reworked content. The beginning of the game was largely different because they had you start with Yoshi instead of Mario, the various caps were all combined into a powerup called a Power Flower that gave each character a different ability, some episodes were completely replaced or changed (examples: Shoot for the Island in the Sky in Bob-omb Battlefield was completely removed, the igloo in Snowman's Land had a completely different design, the episode Watch Out for Rolling Rocks in Hazy Maze Cave was changed from having to wall jump to a ledge above the door to needing to break a black brick with Wario for a Super Mushroom and destroy 5 rocks, 5 Itty Bitty Secrets in Tiny-Huge Island was removed). Honestly, saying you don't see a distinction between OoT and 64 DS is laughable. It doesn't get much more night and day with remakes than comparing those two games. Definitely a warped perception of remakes if that's how you're viewing it, remakes are no stranger to reworks. 64 DS did it and I've seen a fair amount in Pokemon remakes as well.
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