@Nanaki: That excerpt you posted does make it sound like the full article is simply arguing against Christian historians, but if you read the full thing, it's pointed out that while the opposition ridicules them for "misinterpreting" things, they do not have any better explanation themselves. So in the end, you posted a link to a speculative article that confirms nothing and denies nothing.
@The Fox: What about this is historical naivete? History has always been changed by the reigning powers, written by the victors, as it were. Since the Government is now trying to remove Christian significance from America, it only stands to reason that they'd want us to believe it was never there to begin with. But that doesn't make it true. I know this is starting to sound like a conspiracy theory or something, but it should be noted that there is an undeniable element of truth to it regardless.
Fact: The Pilgrims came to America seeking freedom from the government-run churches in Europe. They started a Christian nation, which continued on its way strongly straight through most of the 1800's. With the advent of various technologies and other circumstances over the past 100-150 years, Christianity has been on a decline in this country. You can believe what I have to say or not, but you have no reason to call me naive for believing it.
On a related note, @rodoubleb: Why do you feel the need to outright insult me here? If this would continue to be a clear-headed debate, that would be fine. But calling me an idiot for no good reason needs not occur. I don't insult anyone here because they disagree with me, after all. Or if I have, it's been entirely unintentional, I assure you all.
The main reason I'm still posting here is that I don't have the slightest clue what's going on in the heads of many posters here, but I would like to, all the while sharing what I know whether it's received well or not. Honestly, I'd never heard so many non-Christian views before reading this thread. That says something about my relatively sheltered (homeschooled, for one) life, but there you have it. So as I reach for understanding, I just ask that you all would, as well.
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@Stuffgamer: Ever here of the Treaty of Tripoli? The treaty was passed by the Senate and signed by President Adams in June 1797 and is considered one of the key situations of the government overruling the assumption that the United States was founded as a Christian nation.
Section 11 of this treaty contains the statement"...The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
The Fox, regardless what a little piece of paper signed by some president whose name everyone has forgotten said, America WAS founded on the Christian religion. It's ridiculous to deny it. City upon a hill, manifest destiny, providence - all concepts held by the puritans who founded America.
Even Lincoln talked about America in the exact terms that the Puritans used on board the ship coming over to America: a city upon a hill, set there as an example to everyone by God, with a special duty to behave well lest the example they set to all those nations surrounding it looking to that city upon the hill is a bad one, and they teach people to curse God's name when they see their hypocrisy. That city upon a hill imagery is from the Bible.
No, it's not ridiculous to deny it. It's ridiculous to say otherwise. Cities have been put on hills before the Bible. Most of the founding fathers were deists, not Christians.
No, it really is a quote from the Bible. The foundations of America were set by a bunch of wily puritans who were all anti-England and set up camp on America's shores. Early American literature is puritan or anti-catholic. The very first published arguments put forward for freedom of belief were done so using arguments solely from the New Testament.
And you miss the point of the "city upon a hill" allusion. They didn't actually build a city upon a hill. It was purely metaphor, and metaphor derived from the famous biblical passage.
It is important to remember that America was founded by Christians, for Christians, so the modern trends away from that should obviously mean something.
It is important to remember that America was founded by Christians, for Christians, so the modern trends away from that should obviously mean something.
No.
To elaborate a little on that, do you know what deism is?
de⋅ism /ˈdiɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dee-iz-uhm] –noun 1. belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation (distinguished from theism ). 2. belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.
Many of our 'founding fathers' were deists, not Christians. Thomas Paine, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and John Adams to be exact. They worked to create a government separate from the church because of their beliefs. So while some founders were Christian don't blanket all of them in that manner. K thanks bye.
To elaborate a little on that, do you know what deism is?
de⋅ism /ˈdiɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dee-iz-uhm] –noun 1. belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation (distinguished from theism ). 2. belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.
Many of our 'founding fathers' were deists, not Christians. Thomas Paine, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and John Adams to be exact. They worked to create a government separate from the church because of their beliefs. So while some founders were Christian don't blanket all of them in that manner. K thanks bye.
And many of the founding fathers that predated them and established the concept of America and the first American colonies were Christians, not deists. John Winthrop, William Bradford, and Roger Williams, to be exact. The earliest examples of American literature are profoundly Christian. Roger Williams was probably the first to publish a work arguing for the separation of church and state, and he did so on Christian grounds.
So while some of the later men that came to be known as the founding fathers were not Christians, every single individual who came over from England to establish America - every single person who were among those that started clearing the land, establishing the printing presses and a national literature, and establishing the model for their new society, forging the American identity - was Christian. Don't be so dismissive and insulting to people who speak correctly simply because you don't have knowledge about America's earliest history.
From what I have found out, the US was not founded as a purely Christian nation. There were Christians too, of course, the Plymouth Rock settlers were as far as I know. But just take a look around DC, I mean the name itself gives it away that it was and is highly steeped in paganism. I do believe that Washington DC is a big ol' satanic playground. Its imagery is everywhere. Trying to disguise a massive Baal's shaft by just calling it a 'monument'. Yeah, right. Yes folks, there is a massive conspiracy, and it involves the forces of spiritual darkness. Men and women involved in it, (that's right Obama yo' mama, I'm looking at you) are being used as (willing) puppets.
You can type well sure, but you left out the importance of the Age of Reason and deism in the foundation of the country. This country wasn't created solely by Christians. Don't be so arrogant as to think otherwise.
One day when the world ends or we die... we'll know what lies ahead of us. Until then, no one really knows. All the religions out there saying they are the true religion... blah blah blah. I was raised Baptist and that is all I know (somewhat) about. I really didn't want to get into this topic, but here I am, with nothing to say except for who knows?
From what I have found out, the US was not founded as a purely Christian nation. There were Christians too, of course, the Plymouth Rock settlers were as far as I know. But just take a look around DC, I mean the name itself gives it away that it was and is highly steeped in paganism. I do believe that Washington DC is a big ol' satanic playground. Its imagery is everywhere. Trying to disguise a massive Baal's shaft by just calling it a 'monument'. Yeah, right. Yes folks, there is a massive conspiracy, and it involves the forces of spiritual darkness. Men and women involved in it, (that's right Obama yo' mama, I'm looking at you) are being used as (willing) puppets.
Say What? Please be kidding.
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
I would love to share my views on religion but will only end up getting angry and insulting someone which I don't want to do cause you all seem like nice people.All I will say is that anyone who blindly believes whatever they are told and dosen't question things and decide for themselves what they believe needs serious help and that isn't just religion.Question everything politics,science,religion,media,parents,schools cause they all have their own agendas and they do lie to you for their own ends.Remember keep your eyes ,ears and mind open and you'll do just fine. PEACE.
Even IF there were deists involved in early American history, that doesn't give anyone the right to downplay the Christian foundations of the country. Also, DC isn't 100% paganistic, as proven by things like the Ten Commandments built into the Supreme Court building. I never heard of the other stuff Nathan is talking about, but I find nothing funny about his post whatsoever. I DO, however, find it insulting that three different people have already posted such mocking comments about his post. Again, I remind you: We aren't ridiculing you, so you have no reason to ridicule us.
While researching the facts just now, I came across an interesting legal battle in 1892, wherein the Supreme Court ruled this: "No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is a Christian nation." Source (which I'm sure people will find questionable for obvious reasons, but I'll post it anyway)
Further research into this lead me here. It's really long and legal-speaky, but the important stuff is a quote in blue near the top, and highlighted near the bottom in yellow.
So, unless you wish to provide evidence which refutes these stated facts, we must surely agree that America was once a professed Christian nation.
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@Stuffgamer: "We aren't ridiculing you, so you have no reason to ridicule us." Are you and Nathan the same person? I don't know why you've attached yourself to him otherwise. His theories that D.C is a satanic playground is a bit out there, and claiming some dark conspiracy doesn't help. As for being mocked, I think the second he dragged politics into it with his Obama comment he was fair game. Religion is already a touchy enough topic, and dragging that in as well is like tossing a can of gas to a raging fire. As for America being founded as a Christian nation, I think you're missing the point a bit. Nobody is gling to deny the role Christianity played in early America, as it was crucial in several respects. Just think about this, though: Maybe the founding fathers were smart enough to avoid claiming America as a Christian nation to ensure one of the most important parts of America (religious freedom). We're free to be Christains, Muslims, Jew, Atheists, Bhuddists and anything else I've left out. You know what's best? None of those are seen as any better by the Constitution, Bill of Rights or anything else. You don't get special treatment for being a Christian over any other religion any more than you are penalized. I think we've highjacked this thread long enough discussing America's religious history anyway. I don't care what you believe in; that's your right and you're free to argue it just as I am free to argue mine. While I have found this thread interesting and far more civil than most other websites discussions on the same topic, I think the longer this goes the uglier it'll get. Just move along, folks, nothing to see here.
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
Notice the language used there? I never denied that America was founded by Christians. The sole reason I brought up your quote was because you said, and I quote, "It is important to remember that America was founded by Christians, for Christians," and failed to mention the role of philosophy. THAT'S ALL.
Oh and by the way read article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli,
" Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
President John Adams signed that document, a Christian.
sigh This really HAS gone on too far, and I'm not really the best person to be arguing these points not because I don't believe them, but because I'm not the best debater in the world anyway and do not claim to know EVERYTHING about this given situation. As far as the question if I am Nathan, no, we are not the same person. We're simply both Christians, which is what I've meant by "we" and "us" every time I've used those words in this discussion. Those terms therefore also include Kizzi, SuperSonic1990, and a few more.
I'm willing to drop this debate if everyone else is, anyway. It really IS getting to be too much. I'll just try to redirect my attention to the other forum threads.
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