As far as the discussion of morals goes, I would like to point out the main message of the movie "Time Changer," which most of those posting here have likely never even heard of. Basically, morals come from God, and if you take God out of the equasion, the main point in following the morals is gone. In the movie, people from the early 1900's are debating this point. Someone comes up with a time machine (never said Christian movies couldn't have sci-fi in them!) and travels to the late 1990's and gets to see the result of trying to teach morals without God backing them up! Since we've pretty much all lived through that period and into this decade, we can clearly see the difference between now and then. Society IS degenerating, and I believe this is why.
My Backloggery Updated sporadically. Got my important online ID's on there, anyway. :P
@Stuffgamer1: I'd like to point out that Time Changer was an independent Christian film, so it is pretty clear where the bias is going to be in it. Also, you may believe that society is degenerating, but I believe that all things are relative. As it evolves, the older generations look back on what they grew up with and see that things are no longer the same, the kids of tomorrow are doing things so differently from how they were done yesterday, and they get sentimental for how things were back then.
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[16:43] James: I should learn these site rules more clearly
[16:44] LztheBlehBird: James doesn't know the rules? For shame!!!
Well I'm sorry you feel that way Adam. If you ever want to go back and read that article you will find that the bible is one of the most valid books ever. For all the Christians on this site, I thank God for you. I also thank God for everyone else on this site. You guys are wonderful people! I will conntinue praying for all of you, whether you want it or not. One last thing, just think about where you will be spending eternity.
Edit: back to more video games!
I`ll pray a little extra just for you Kizzi for all your hard work conversating the Lord Jesus Christ to these people whether they think different or not its the thought that counts
As I`ve said before Kizzi, your a good man! May God bless your soul.
Just for you. "I'm just a musical prostitute, my dear." - Freddie Mercury
The dictionary definition of Humanism is "an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems."
I don't know your current education level, Stuffgamer1 (my apologies), but I would suggest taking a college level Philosophy class someday. I don't want to argue with your beliefs, but there are solid reasons as to why people can function morally/ethically without a supernatural force or higher being.
@theblackdragon: You don't think that society is degenerating? So you really think that high rates of divorce and violent crime relative to the past isn't degeneration? Obviously, everything I have to say and point out is going to be from a "biased" Christian perspective. But the point made in Time Changer is a valid one. Look at the states of society in those two periods. There's no sane questioning that society has degenerated over that period!
But if you don't want to believe me even still, that's okay. There's nothing else I could say to change your mind, and I certainly have no interest in trying to run about hitting people over the head with my Bible. I don't want to alienate funny forum friends for no real benefit, after all.
My Backloggery Updated sporadically. Got my important online ID's on there, anyway. :P
the act of arguing about religion is the most pointless thing in the universe since not one person hear will change their veiws and we all walk away annoyed. good bye.
@Danny August: Adam and Eve lived hundreds of years. I think it is safe to say that they had more than two kids. Cain and Abel were just the only ones that were told in the Bible. Plus, God said go multiply on the earth. I think he would mean more than 2 people.
Yes, it says that Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters.
@Stuffgamer1: I believe that high divorce rates are a product of the gradual evolution of society. The days of staying with your husband or wife even if you are woefully unhappy or in an abusive relationship are over. Also, with regards to crime, aside from some statistics from 2005-ish here and here that show crime (in the US, anyway) is actually down overall from previous years, one must take into account the concurrent evolution of weapons technology as well as the rise in the world's population, not to mention that now we also have the technology, resources, and willing people available to keep proper records of crimes as they occur.
Have some more crime trends charts; they're rather interesting. You'll also notice that the percentage of crimes that have been reported to the police has been increasing as well.
@malnin: as far as I can tell, that was your only contribution to this thread, and we are all fully aware that arguing about religion is pointless, thanks.
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[16:43] James: I should learn these site rules more clearly
[16:44] LztheBlehBird: James doesn't know the rules? For shame!!!
i believe the conscience is a result of living in social groups, of society; society tells you that what you did was wrong, and thus the inklings of shame appear within because, as humans, we have the ability to remember what we have done, we can think about it and the consequences of our actions from multiple angles, and we can empathize with all involved, for good or ill. when you lie or steal as a child, your mother or father admonishes you and tells you that you have done something to be ashamed of, that you have hurt someone else, and that stays with you for the rest of your life. nothing wells up from within as your conscience until society or natural consequences (i stepped on the frog and now the frog won't play with me anymore, why won't it play with me? perhaps it's hurt... i shouldn't step on the next one) come in to put it there.
As I've mentioned before, there are different types of societies in this world. Some permit murder for the sake of skull collecting, and other sins. Does that mean these (people and their society as a whole therefore) cannot be changed because of the way they were brought up? Of course they can, and have, after hearing the good word of salvation because of Jesus. And so a whole society can change. I haven't known a child who would purposefully step on a frog... not because he or she would be afraid that it wouldn't play with them, but because it is a life.
Why can't humans behave without knowing of your god? They have before haven't they? The Japanese do fine without Jesus.
And on another point, why do you behave? Is it because you fear hell or covet heaven?
People can do right without knowing God, because they his conscience written on their heart. But if they never truely have a relationship with Him, they will never experience the true joy of knowing Him
To answer your other question, I do right for both reasons. I don't want to go to hell, but I also want to go to heaven. I also do right because God commands us, and I want to follow His word. You may think that that is opressive, but it is not. God's commands are for our own best interest. We may not always want to follow his commands, but His commands will help lead a joyful and fruitful life. But ultimately, God just wants a relationship with us(like one of a brother) God calls us His friend, and wants to spend time with us. He loves us, for He created us.
@Nathan: I do believe I read about some of the missionaries and their work in the jungles of South America, and how their insistence upon the natives there clothing themselves 'properly' brought disease to those tribes (their clothing got wet due to the rains, but they had to stay clothed, and thus they got sick). And as for murder and warring for the sake of skull collecting, that only became 'sinful' to them after they were converted. Before, they had their own belief system, and other gods and ancestors not laid out in the bible to satisfy. Under their prior social law(s) and system(s) of morals, they had committed no sin by killing an enemy; perhaps they had done their group a great favor by bringing back his skull or whatever. who knows?
You believe they have been changed for the better because they now follow your system of beliefs. I do not care which they follow, just that there was something that they followed before the Christians came, which has been my point all along -- that just because a group of people had not been converted to christianity does not mean that they were utter barbarians without morals or any kind of social laws beforehand, it just means that their systems did not conform to your own, and thus you (general 'you') believe their former ways to be 'wrong' or 'bad' in comparison, and that it is 'good' that they have conformed to what you believe now. on a whole, society is ever-changing, and those in power with groups of greater numbers will swallow up the smaller groups with less power. i believe it is the way of things.
also, the kid stepping on a frog was an example of lessons learned perhaps not from the christian church or the bible, but from action and natural consequence.
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[16:43] James: I should learn these site rules more clearly
[16:44] LztheBlehBird: James doesn't know the rules? For shame!!!
@malnin Yeah. You have a point about the arguments. Some of us was ridiculed by AlexSays for believing in a God. I wonder if there wasn't a God, how do we make our own choices? How do we just pop up smart? How do we adapt to this Earth?
@J-Man: as for some of us who don't believe in a higher being that intervenes into or interferes with our daily lives, we may believe that we are constantly learning as we grow through childhood and into adulthood, that we as a species are flexible enough to adapt to this Earth with the help of our intelligence and the skills we've picked up and refined over the years, and that most of us have the sense to make our own decisions without outside help. I don't need someone to tell me to pick up my trash or to wash my dishes, for example; I'm a big girl and I can decide to do these things on my own. Even Christianity has the concept of free will, if that's the religion you follow (and if not, the same concept is discussed within other faiths on that same page).
BEST THREAD EVER future of NL >:3
[16:43] James: I should learn these site rules more clearly
[16:44] LztheBlehBird: James doesn't know the rules? For shame!!!
And as for murder and warring for the sake of skull collecting, that only became 'sinful' to them after they were converted.
No, murder was sin beforehand too, and they may have had their consciences pricked even before knowing about Jesus, but they then realised more of the enormity of sin when they did.
Before, they had their own belief system, and other gods and ancestors not laid out in the bible to satisfy. Under their prior social law(s) and system(s) of morals, they had committed no sin by killing an enemy; perhaps they had done their group a great favor by bringing back his skull or whatever. who knows?
Yeah, defense is not murder though. And the people who know were the people who were there and had it documented, if you want to believe even that.
that just because a group of people had not been converted to christianity does not mean that they were utter barbarians without morals or any kind of social laws beforehand,
True. They could still look at a reflection of themselves in water and realise that everything around them had been there before they were, and know that no human or themselves made it or them. And so he can cry out in his heart, "I know I didn't make myself, and I know that nobody here made the things around me... I don't know where you are, or who you are.. but... help me!" And God will respond.
on a whole, society is ever-changing, and those in power with groups of greater numbers will swallow up the smaller groups with less power. i believe it is the way of things.
Interesting thing to say, since the disciples of Jesus were very few in number, had no temporal, worldly power, and yet Jesus' message which they bore spread all over the empire and throughout the world.
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