@Pizzamorg It can kill “artistic intent”. The game can be intended to have the player experience a feeling of accomplished after beating a boss on the like 6th attempt, learning the game. Then some FMV cutscene builds on that feeling. Making a easy mode and changing values for the damage the player takes would kill that. The experience would change.
Climbing Mount Everest and playing Dark Souls just ain´t for everyone, levelling the mountain or changing the difficulty would change the experience to drastically. Just do something else if you ain´t fit.
You don’t think someone feels a sense of accomplishment at beating a boss at the level of difficulty that suits their skill level? Or are you equating the value of a boss by how many attempts it requires?
Also wow, we’ve now moved on to comparing it to climbing mountains? There are so many straw man arguments in here I feel like I am in a corn field.
@Pizzamorg That is an interesting discussion indeed: what is art? Why the level of violence, gore, tone, difficulty etc are or are not forms of artistic intent?
It's great that a game offers you the possibility to tweak some parameters the way you see fit for your own tastes, allowing you to enjoy it the in your personal way. Take away the gore from Mortal Kombat and Doom, you don't change the gameplay mechanics. But for sure you change the user/gamer experience.
In the end, we both presented our opinions. They seem to differ in a more fundamental level, which is fine.
Yeah I personally don’t see an issue with being able to adjust the level of gore in games. Which is why many games offer this as an accessibility feature. However, if you were able to change fundamental aspects of a game, like the level of violence etc, this is something different.
@Pizzamorg I have no issue with that, if they can add it like they did with dead cells thats just fine, I just think its kinda messed up to call it bad game design if they don't have an easy mode, I mean not all devs might be good at that sort of thing or they might not be able to add an easy mode without jacking up the whole feel of the game, some games do that, and sometimes the easy mode is worse because you miss out on the fun segments they might have gotten rid for the mode.
All in all, I have no issue with it, but I don't think it should be called bad if it doesn't have it, So i'm not really disagreeing with you here, not at all really.
Yeah, to make it clear I am not arguing for a fundamentally altered game in an easy mode. I am just more saying that fundamentally, an easier mode is usually just tweaked values and you can do this without fundamentally changing the actual core mechanics of the game. I think when we come to the point of arguing entire mechanics need to be altered/removed for the sake of accessibility, then we are coming into a very different kind of conversation I wasn’t really arguing for.
Mobile gaming is almost entirely dog turd and it should never, ever get large-scale focus from big name game companies. My heart sinks when an announcement turns out to be a new mobile title.
Edit: I'm aware that this is coming from a Western focus and for a lot of other places, like in China, it's hugely popular and much more accessible. That works for them and that's cool - I wouldn't see it taken away from places where the reception is overwhelmingly positive.
Casual games are not always bad as you think.
Depend on the developer, even the games are mediocre but at least it offered something different and i enjoy to take a part in different gaming experiences.
No need to feel ashamed for playing mediocre games like Cooking Mama, Petz series, Imagine series, My Universe games, etc because there are some beautiful experience from playing casual games with common themes such as cooking or designing or taking care animals, etc despite of decent quality presentation.
Also, being a gamer doesn't need to be judged by the played games as game choices are not a parameter to tell you are a gamer or not. I am still a gamer even i play a lot of non popular casual games and don't play popular games played by a lot of peoples out there (Zelda, Metroid, Smash Bros, FIFA, Fortnite, etc).
Gen 1 Pokémon, Red and Blue specifically, are probably the worst Pokémon games in the series. They are filled with coding errors that make Ghost types ineffective against Psychic types, making Psychic the strongest type in the game, moves get shown to be not very effective even if it's normal effetiveness (See Omastar with it's Rock/Water typing, if you use a water type against it, it's not shown as normal effectiveness), the sprites are ugly and many Pokémon are plain bad because they learn no moves/bad moves.
I also love hate how people give Gen 5 so much crap even thought Gen 1 had the worst designs so far. A Pokéball with eyes evolves into a Upsidedown Pokéball with eyes. A sentient sludge evolves into a bigger sludge and whatever Koffing is supposed to be grows a tumor to evolve into Weezing. Don't forget the three individual Magnemites that have to stick to two others to evolve into Magneton.
@Anti-Matter Agreed. Casual gaming is immensely good for your own mental health and relaxation, I feel. You can set your own goals and just enjoy the experience without too much pressure to 'be good'.
Hang on to your youthful enthusiasms - you'll be able to use them better when you're older.
@Nephestinus The original Pokemon games are 25 years old now but they started an entire series of the exact same game. Sure there are some bugs but it adds to the charm of the game. These games were so good that the Pokemon Company still hasn't changed the formula from the original and people still buy it. Sword and shield and the new pearl/diamond are just prettier versions of the same game from 25 years ago. Psychic should be the strongest type because at that time there really wasn't anything to stop them and Mewtwo is the final legendary that is a complete monster.
Gen 1 had the worst designs so far. A Pokéball with eyes evolves into a Upsidedown Pokéball with eyes. A sentient sludge evolves into a bigger sludge and whatever Koffing is supposed to be grows a tumor to evolve into Weezing. Don't forget the three individual Magnemites that have to stick to two others to evolve into Magneton.
This is in other generations though too. You can't just point out the ugly ones and say look these are ugly. Voltorb is a classic in the rpg genre of the mimic enemy where you think you're opening a chest but it is a slobbering toothy monster. You also neglect some of the best Pokemon are from gen 1. Idk why I'm dying on this hill but I do like gen 1 the most. Maybe because it is not as unnecessarily long as the newer games. Like you don't have to walk back and forward for an extended amount of time going through different loading points. Or that the battles all don't have to have the trainer come out, do some stupid saying have a sprite come up then slowly leave for the Pokemon to come out and do its call which then my guy comes out and does the same thing. The new games are bloated in a way that it's not as easy to fight and get levels and it makes the new games really boring.
@Pizzamorg apologies if some of this is redundant, i read through most of the "difficulty options" topic but i'm sure i missed finer details. Anyway -
How much have you played Dark Souls or a similar game? I'm really curious what your experience was. In any casr, I'll try to keep my points succinct: suggesting that high difficulty negatively effects a games artistic merit is false. It may influence somebody's ability to interpet that artistic value, but not the value itself. It may sound harsh, but the content of Dark Souls doesn't change from disc to disc. All the data is there, it's the player's inability to interpret it that creates this divide. I think that's why Dark Souls elicits this response from people, it puts them in a situation where they're fighting for control. And honestly - even if they made the game easier i doubt you'd be able to enjoy the story because it's just as hard to understand as the bosses are to defeat. Or....should that be made easier too? Hmmmmm.
And it is pointless to compare video games to other passive mediums, so don't do it. In this case it's more like going to a theme park. Some people go straight for the roller coasters, others cant handle them. Nobody's chastising engineers because rollercoaters are too intense, asking that they all be enjoyable to everyone.
Switch friend code: SW-2223-7827-8798
Give me a heads-up if you're going to send a request please.
@roy130390 yeah i always disliked the 2d games because i felt like i just kept running into things i couldnt have possibly seen. And it's an awful feeling when you're goin' fast and then your momentum just stops. I've only briefly played one of the 3d sonic games (cant sure which one. It wasnt one of the disasters, but it wasnt much fun imo). I always keep an eye out for Sonic, and i think it's because he's so popular that i do that. But the reality is i've never cared much for those games (and more often than not they're poorly made messes).
Switch friend code: SW-2223-7827-8798
Give me a heads-up if you're going to send a request please.
@Pizzamorg apologies if some of this is redundant, i read through most of the "difficulty options" topic but i'm sure i missed finer details. Anyway -
How much have you played Dark Souls or a similar game? I'm really curious what your experience was. In any casr, I'll try to keep my points succinct: suggesting that high difficulty negatively effects a games artistic merit is false. It may influence somebody's ability to interpet that artistic value, but not the value itself. It may sound harsh, but the content of Dark Souls doesn't change from disc to disc. All the data is there, it's the player's inability to interpret it that creates this divide. I think that's why Dark Souls elicits this response from people, it puts them in a situation where they're fighting for control. And honestly - even if they made the game easier i doubt you'd be able to enjoy the story because it's just as hard to understand as the bosses are to defeat. Or....should that be made easier too? Hmmmmm.
And it is pointless to compare video games to other passive mediums, so don't do it. In this case it's more like going to a theme park. Some people go straight for the roller coasters, others cant handle them. Nobody's chastising engineers because rollercoaters are too intense, asking that they all be enjoyable to everyone.
I mean I am a big Monster Hunter fan, played a bunch of souls like games like Code Vein, Nioh and Remnant From the Ashes. I tried Bloodborne, but it was so hard from the get go, I bounced right off it.
But yeah, I wasn’t arguing that difficulty lowers artistic merit. I think acting like difficulty is a form of artistic intention is a falsehood in itself. Just as false as the seeming suggestion that intelligence is somehow connected to the skill level of a player? Or as false as comparing this to rollercoasters. There is so much straw in here we need a barn.
@Pizzamorg respectfully, if you havent played Dark Souls then i have to use more common comparisons to offer a different perspective. The only way you'd understand it is to play it yourself, nobody can explain a physical experience to you in a way that you would have a true understanding of that experience. You're the one deflecting by constantly saying "straw man". I actually think my rollercoaster analogy is apt, but you must not care for steel inversion rollercoasters i guess.
And a player's skill level is representative of their intelligence, at least when it comes to that specific game. That they put in the effort and time to understand the mechanics means they are well versed in the subject, and capable. I feel like if we were talking about a fighting game this wouldn't have even been brought up.
And finally, difficulty isn't usually an indication of artistic intention - except with the Soulsborne games i can verify that it is. Maybe other games too, but i don't have much experience with others. Just as horror game builds atmosphere and tension by using unpleasant things to scare the player so to does Dark Souls use challenge to manipulate the player. This is entirely what i've been trying to articulate. If you can push a button and make the game easier than you are the one manipulating the game.
Side note - Bloodborne is really hard. To me at least i felt like it was the hardest Soulsborne game. It's almost more like a Devil May Cry or something (and i suck at those games). But you know what? I stuck with it - and I finished it. It chewed me up and spat me out, it was brutal. But i did it. And it was exhilarating. If you dont like it (or those types of games in general) thats cool - i totally get that. They're really more of a niché thing for sado masochists and i have no idea how they got so popular. But the fact remains - the people who stick with them do so because it's always a hard fought victory. Nobody is any good at these games when they start out. You're suppose to fail. A lot.
Switch friend code: SW-2223-7827-8798
Give me a heads-up if you're going to send a request please.
@Pizzamorg respectfully, if you havent played Dark Souls then i have to use more common comparisons to offer a different perspective. The only way you'd understand it is to play it yourself, nobody can explain a physical experience to you in a way that you would have a true understanding of that experience. You're the one deflecting by constantly saying "straw man". I actually think my rollercoaster analogy is apt, but you must not care for steel inversion rollercoasters i guess.
And a player's skill level is representative of their intelligence, at least when it comes to that specific game. That they put in the effort and time to understand the mechanics means they are well versed in the subject, and capable. I feel like if we were talking about a fighting game this wouldn't have even been brought up.
And finally, difficulty isn't usually an indication of artistic intention - except with the Soulsborne games i can verify that it is. Maybe other games too, but i don't have much experience with others. Just as horror game builds atmosphere and tension by using unpleasant things to scare the player so to does Dark Souls use challenge to manipulate the player. This is entirely what i've been trying to articulate. If you can push a button and make the game easier than you are the one manipulating the game.
Side note - Bloodborne is really hard. To me at least i felt like it was the hardest Soulsborne game. It's almost more like a Devil May Cry or something (and i suck at those games). But you know what? I stuck with it - and I finished it. It chewed me up and spat me out, it was brutal. But i did it. And it was exhilarating. If you dont like it (or those types of games in general) thats cool - i totally get that. They're really more of a niché thing for sado masochists and i have no idea how they got so popular. But the fact remains - the people who stick with them do so because it's always a hard fought victory. Nobody is any good at these games when they start out. You're suppose to fail. A lot.
Dark Souls was only ever used as an example to illustrate, not to be the thing that people latch into to make fallacy arguments to suggest every game shouldn’t have an easy mode. Which it should.
You said in your post that if you can’t beat the boss, you probably won’t understand the story. An utterly disgusting take.
But the point is, I play games to have fun. Relax. Unwind. Life is hard, games are my escape. I don’t want to fail over and over again. Those who do want to be miserable, still can be. But that doesn’t mean an easy mode cant also exist, for those who just want to enjoy the story/characters/mechanics etc in a more relaxed, forgiving, environment where they can just enjoy the experience rather than battle against it.
There is no intentional deflection by me, just exhaustion from having to repeat myself over and over again. No matter what argument you make, you will never convince me that every game shouldn’t have an easy mode. Because no matter what you tell yourself, including an easy mode will never harm a product. It will harm a product possibly if they ONLY include an easy mode, but just giving an optional easy mode for a wider audience is only a good thing. There are no downsides, no matter how hard people try to argue otherwise.
@Pizzamorg thats not exactly what i said about the story, i was comparing it in difficulty to the games bosses. Plainly, you have to put in just as much work to understand the story in Dark Souls. Sorry if that came off as an insult, but i do believe that to be true.
And that's cool if you dont like challenging games. I usually don't either. I guess my point is that if you want to chill when playing a game than you probably wouldnt like Dark Souls (and by extension similar games) regardless because the whole point of the game is to get your teeth kicked in and ask "may i have another, sir?". Making it "gentler" completely goes against it's modus operandi.
I find it a funny coincidence that this discussion is on a Nintendo site. Mario games never have a difficulty option.
@Pizzamorg thats not exactly what i said about the story, i was comparing it in difficulty to the games bosses. Plainly, you have to put in just as much work to understand the story in Dark Souls. Sorry if that came off as an insult, but i do believe that to be true.
And that's cool if you dont like challenging games. I usually don't either. I guess my point is that if you want to chill when playing a game than you probably wouldnt like Dark Souls (and by extension similar games) regardless because the whole point of the game is to get your teeth kicked in and ask "may i have another, sir?". Making it "gentler" completely goes against it's modus operandi.
I find it a funny coincidence that this discussion is on a Nintendo site. Mario games never have a difficulty option.
I love Dark Souls tone, setting, art design, systems. All of it. The only thing I don’t like is the difficulty.
This is the point I have made countless amounts of times already. Demanding a horror movie cater to a non horror movie fan, is an unrealistic request. And also just utterly ridiculous, hence straw man arguments.
If people cannot see the difference between that and an easy mode in a video game than the discussion is already lost. The “Artists intent” difficulty doesn’t need to go anywhere. And the game itself can exist entirely intact, with an optional, additionally, difficulty option. It will just include either rebalanced/tuned/tweaked values for things, to make it more enjoyable for a wider audience. Just that simple. If they want to go further, like Control and STOD 2 did, then even better.
@Pizzamorg i didn't say "horror movie" i said "horror game" and it's entirely apt. The idea is to present the player with something that will deter them, and influence their decision making.
And there's a much lengthier discussion we could have about how to actually make things easier in Dark Souls (without the need of an easy option) but i don't think either one of us wants that convo.
My suggestion? Just try Dark Souls! Take it from me - if i can finish it then most people can. I would be more than happy to offer advice and insight based on my personal experience with that game.
Switch friend code: SW-2223-7827-8798
Give me a heads-up if you're going to send a request please.
Forums
Topic: Unpopular Gaming Opinions
Posts 9,001 to 9,020 of 12,088
Please login or sign up to reply to this topic