Topic: The Universal Games Ranking Forum (Currently: Characters/Weapons/etc. You Hate Playing Against)

Those Gamecube VC rumors for Switch seem like a lifetime away now...

All I want is GC and GBA VC on Switch. I'll love you forever if you give me that, Nintendo.

@CreamyDream If the controls were perfect, everyone would adapt to them as if it were second nature. Just because some people can use the controls well doesn't mean everyone can. As for the camera, it constantly clips into the wall for me, and sometimes even stays there, causing me to die. Don't assume your experiences and those SM64 speedrunners' experiences should be everyone's.

@CreamyDream It's a platformer. Platformers are supposed to be accessible. You don't boot up Super Mario Bros. and play World 1-1 thirty times to get a feel for the controls. The controls in that game are simple. The controls in most platformers are simple: run, jump, collect power-ups, and get to the objective. A platformer isn't like a fighting or beat-'em-up game, where you have to memorize dozens of combos to have a chance of beating it, you should be able to play a platformer and at least scrape by with the standard controls of move and jump. Maybe you do just have to master the controls in SM64, but my opinion is that I shouldn't have to in a platformer. To me it's bad game design to have to master the controls in a platformer. Even using your analogy to Crash Bandicoot, the main thing that the difficulty comes from is depth perception and punishing level design, not the controls.

As for the camera, I just don't like cameras you can move yourself in general for the most part.

Also, I'd like to say that SM64 was my first game ever (I got it at the age of 6) and I didn't know other games existed, so I played it for hundreds of hours, even getting all the stars in two separate game files, but even now I still have trouble with the controls and camera, so I doubt I just need to get good.

TLDR: To me, platformers should be accessible and SM64 is not, and I really think you're holding yourself to a standard of play and saying "Well if I can do it you just need to get good. Kids these days just don't understand."

I don't mind challenging platformers, but Mario 64 is "challenging" for the wrong reasons. In general, a game should be easy to control unless the whole point of the game is that it's not supposed to be easy to control (like Snake Pass or Octodad). A game shouldn't be hard because of a garbage camera and inaccessible controls

@CreamyDream Yeah, it is really just my preferences and thoughts on game design. By the way, more accessible doesn't mean it's less difficult. Super Meat Boy is pretty easy to pick up, but have fun beating it easily.

Do you know some of these less accessible platformers? I'd like to try them out to see what I'm missing.

@Ralizah Yeah, basically what I was saying, but way more concise and clear.

@CreamyDream I liked the 100-coin challenges, made you to go and explore the levels. The only issue is when there's tons of miss-able coins...

@Nintendoer I had no problem as a kid with Mario 64. If the controls were that bad, I would've died a lot more. It's really not that bad.

You have pretty low standards, friend. A terrible camera that doesn't give you a clear view of where you're trying to go is a bad thing, full stop. Controls that don't work are worse, yes, but this doesn't excuse the flaws in Mario 64 that make it an unpleasant gaming experience for many people.

If the camera was fully under my control, it wouldn't be a problem. Instead, it only moves in increments and often can't be manipulated to look where I want to look.

Snake Pass was designed around mastering an unusual set of controls. This is the point of the game.

Mario 64 was not designed to be difficult to control.

Moreover, Super Mario Sunshine has a similar level of depth in its controls, but the physics, collision detection, and level design still make it accessible.

Those levels are annoying, because you'll find almost all the coins, but there will be one or two that continue to evade detection, leading me to hunt around the same areas over and over again.

@Ralizah Like I said, it depends on how many coins are available in the level. If there are too many, it's dull and repetitive, if there are exactly 100 coins, it becomes a tedious hide and seek quest. I think there's room for a balanced approach.

6. Super Mario 3D Land
This game was way too monotonous. The levels didn't feel different enough from each other and were extremely linear for my tastes. I keep trying to go back to play it but every time I finish a couple of levels, get bored, then turn it off and play something else. I completed the game but couldn't get past the post-game due to boredom.

5. Super Mario 3D World
The levels in this game are still a bit linear for my tastes but, unlike 3D Land, each level felt completely unique which held my interest throughout the whole game. It's also fun to grab a friend or two and play some levels together. By no means a bad game, but it has some tough competition

4. Super Mario 64
A pretty solid 3D Mario game. Peach's castle was fun to explore and each world had a lot of variety. There was also plenty of freedom of which stars you collect when in a level which was nice. The game always starts out strong for me but for some reason once I get to world 6 or 7 I start to loose interest. I still go back to play this gave every now and then though.

3. Super Mario Galaxy 2
The Galaxy games are really amazing. I'm surprised at how well Mario controls when he's walking around the tiny planets. This game is filled with charm and plenty of interesting worlds where each one plays completely differently. Another thing I liked about the galaxy games was the extra spin you could do while jumping. It was fun to do, helped in sticky situations, and added more variety to the platforming. The music is also phenomenal.

2. Super Mario Galaxy
I enjoyed this game about the same amount as I enjoyed Galaxy 2, however I liked the bigger hub world to explore and the story was more engaging. All of the other improvements it made to the first game are pretty insignificant to me. It was essentially Galaxy but with different levels and Yoshi. Both games are fantastic though, this one just barely inches ahead of Galaxy 2.

1. Super Mario Sunshine
One of my favorite games of all time. I loved the addition of F.L.U.D.D. because it gave so much freedom with the platforming. There's a ton of flips and tricks you can do and it feels so satisfying to just barely make it up to a high platform with the jet pack. The hub world was by far my favorite out of all the 3D Mario games too. There's so many hidden secrets and things to do, and I love that you can see the sun slowly come back to the island with each sunshine you obtain. It really gives a nice sense of accomplishment. The tropical theme was great and all of the game worlds stick out in my mind. I've played through this game countless times and will continue to do so in the future.

EDIT: I'd also like to suggest ranking the Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons or Rune Factory games.

I've ignored the parts of your post that amount to nothing more than a longer way of saying: "git gud, scrub." I'm not interested in the fact that you've played a game with terrible controls for over a decade and have gotten good at manipulating them.

Not a surprise. A lot of gamers grew up with Mario 64, and, for a lot of people, it was their first taste of 3D gaming, so people unsurprisingly get the warm fuzzies about it.

But you're getting emotional and missing my point. My point wasn't that you have low standards because you like Mario 64: I said you have low standards because your apparent standard for what separates bad and good controls is whether they work at all.

They really aren't. The game is clumsy and hard to control by modern standards, which is why I said the game hasn't aged well.

They're more refined. The collision detection algorithms in a lot of platformers from that generation are terrible, so it's no surprise that this was improved in Sunshine.

With regard to level design, most of the levels feel more interconnected and focused on a theme in Sunshine. Too many levels in 64 feel like a jumble of random platforms and objects.

If you want to feel the difference between the two games, all you have to do is play those levels in Sunshine where you missing the FLUDD (with or without wall jumping).

True, but that's not what I was talking about.

This is gospel. I'm gonna sneakily agree with this, the controls take longer to completely grasp for some, but I'd argue it's worth it. Does that automatically make them objectivally amazing? No, but it just makes the game more fun for me and some others.

I mean, you can get good enough at Sonic Adventure to beat the levels hella fast and not die from random bugs or weird level design. It makes the game way more fun to play, but not necessarily better.

Also I'll proly close the poll tomorrow, so if you've still something to share on the topic, do it sooner than later.

Edit: @Tyranexx Thanks for the good wishes man! Meant to mention that that in here, but adding a quote somehow goofed it.

@BigYellow Great, I was wondering when you'd close the poll. By the way, if you're ever too busy to make a poll, just ask one of us (or me, at least).

I'd also like to rank the Castlevania games (Rondo of Blood is best game).

@Xaldin What a charming write-up you give of Sunshine, really makes me wanna fire the game up right now (I would too, but it's past my bedtime )

I'd like to nominate the Resident Evil series for ranking. I've only played one of them (no guesses which) but want to know what others make of the rest of them.

I never had any serious issues playing Super Mario 64 and I didn't need to learn too many things, I was fluently playing it in a matter of few minutes, but if someone had any problem with the controls of thiis game I think probably it was not a fault of the game but a fault of the stupid, weird, nonsensical and inhumanly shaped Nintendo 64 controller. And I've met Sony haters who talked bad of the dual shock and said that crap was the best controller ever

I am a legit fan of the N64 version of Megaman Legends, among other things, so I have literally no place to decide on whether Mario 64's controls are bad or not

I can tell you it's still better than most games from that generation. Srsly, play any other pre-OOT N64 or PS1 game with a focus on 3d movement, it's a world of difference.

@gcunit I'd highly recommend trying it out! It's a pretty divisive game though so there's no guarantee you'll like it as much as I do, but it's definitely worth your time to give it a try.

Megaman Legends, controls are a bit weird, but good faces! Holds up really well for an early 3D game.