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Topic: Coronavirus outbreak

Posts 101 to 120 of 1,514

Zeldafan79

AAAAAAAARRRRRHHH! We're all gonna die! All is lost! All is lost! This is it, the apocalypse!

LOL sorry just had to get that outta my system. Now scuse me while i get a fresh pair of undies.😜

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HobbitGamer

@Zeldafan79 GET TONS OF TOILET PAPER!!! Quickly, it’s your only hope.

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Zeldafan79

@HobbitGamer
Oh no I'm out! For the love of god help me! There's Dook everywhere!

Edited on by Zeldafan79

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" Optimus Prime

shaneoh

mesome713 wrote:

Had companies and countries not been so greedy and worried about money so much, we could have locked this virus down in the beginning instead of 4 months later.

Alternatively, if China had learned their lesson from sars or the last bird flu outbreak and put a stop to their unhygienic animal markets there wouldn't be a virus to lock down. There'll be another virus from China in a few years time for the same reason, might end up being worse than now, might not.

Heavyarms55 wrote:

I'm just curious for all the people still saying it's not a serious problem - how many people have to get sick and what % of them have to die to change your mind?

20% would have me taking excessive precautions. I mean 4% isn't a 3%, 2%, 1% or 0% but it's better odds than 5-100%

Heavyarms55 wrote:

Frankly I'm getting really sick of people brushing it off. Panic isn't helping - but I'm not seeing much panic. People aren't rioting in the streets or running around in terror.

There isn't much middle ground here. You're either panicking or you're not. If you don't have it, then there isn't much you can do to stop it spreading other than following basic hygiene etiquette. Just relax and worry about it IF you get it.

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Octane

@Heavyarms55 That's the catch-22 here. If countries did nothing and people died, people would complain nobody took any action. However, if action is taken and it is prevented before it gets out of control, people will look back and brush it aside and conclude it was never even a serious threat in the first place.

Octane

NotTelevision

One thing this virus has exposed further is this bizarre “years left before death= how much the media and Internet cares”. So a 20 something dying would be a “tragedy” but a sick or elderly would be “ehh it was going to happen in a week anyway”.

Let’s suppose only the sick and elderly would get infected and die from the CV. Wouldn’t it still be our duty to wipe this thing out ASAP? I mean they are alive and have just as much value to continue living as a health 20 something, right?

Our morality seems really screwed up here.

NotTelevision

gcunit

@NotTelevision Before your post I was tempted to post something quite opposite to what you've just posted, but I decided to hang back, but you've opened the door for me now.

If you had a beloved family dog, 14 years old, weak legs, weak bladder etc. that gets sick and the vet tells you they can try out something that might work, but it will cost £10,000, would you spend the money?

If you had a 75+ close relative with 'underlying health conditions' that developed a rare form of cancer and the doctors tell you there's a pioneering bit of medical tech that might work, but you'll have to stump up £150k, would you pay it?

The world is overpopulated. That population is an ageing one...

We all have to die...

Most 75+ people with 'underlying health conditions' will be lucky to live another 5 years anyway, and the intelligent ones will be fairly matter-of-fact about their prospects.

At what point do you let go of your vice-tight grip on your belief that life is sacred and must be protected under all circumstances?

This is not me saying "let's cull all the over 75s", it's merely acknowledging the fact that unhealthy over 75s don't have long to live.

You're on a rowing boat out at sea. You, Momma, lil' sis, and Grandmamma (with underlying health conditions). The boat develops a leak and the devastating reality is that the boat won't make it to land carrying all four of you. To save the group, one has to abandon ship. "Grandmamma, take off your jewellery..."

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NEStalgia

@shaneoh "Alternatively, if China had learned their lesson from sars or the last bird flu outbreak and put a stop to their unhygienic animal markets there wouldn't be a virus to lock down. There'll be another virus from China in a few years time for the same reason, might end up being worse than now, might not."

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. You seem to be the only one actually discussing the actual cause of the problem. +10 to you. It's not a surprise, it's the same source as all the other virii that originated there.

The situation here is the meat/seafood markets started the transmission from animals to humans. Then the provincial government sat on it, hid it from central government to protect themselves their wrath, to the point of arresting and forcing retractions from those who spoke of the alarm. Then the West in its infinite stupidity did NOT restrict travel to/from China immediately in response, because we never want to offend China or harm business with it to which we are wholly dependent. That is the chain of events that led us here. China should have been a travel ban since December, worldwide until they contained it.

@ThanosReXXX I think there's some American + regional + local historical context to that you're going to miss, both being a Flying Dutchman, and a Left Coaster. The Italian districts here, not so much today, but some decades ago, still, that formed in the early 20th century weren't like a "Chinatown" that "Westernizes" (hard to Westernize a culture that kind of defined the baseline of the West to begin with.) The best way to describe it is - Italy isn't really just one place. It was formed around the city-states, and that legacy shapes the culture today. Each city region is it's own alternate Italy from all the others. It's own flavor, it's own way of life, it's own architecture, and landscape, and food - it's own "right" way of doing the same foods like it's a whole other country. That's part of the charm. No two regions can even agree on the right way to do espresso or pizza with each being entirely different things, yet all still uniquely Italian. The "Italian-American" culture here kind of existed as yet another "region of Italy" - different from each other city region, yet distinctly Italian. With it's own take on the same foods...because of course. Kind of an extra remote province outside the boot like Hawaii is for the US (culturally, not legally.)

All that being said, a lot of that applies to an older generation. Today, from what I've heard in common from most of the people I know from Italy, who still go there often and/or have homes there as well is that in the past 15 years or so it's changed there. It's not what it was....it's basically just more of here. The place changed, the people changed, and it's kind of very "American" now (said in a negative context.) They weren't really going back as much anymore as a result. That's a common thread I've heard from numerous people (originally from there.) And yes, I'm not exactly going to seek close contact with them to discuss further at the moment.....no doubt they've been over there recently.

@Heavyarms55 I was that "certain group". My point was always that nature always handles overpopulation. Always. And that humans need to control population one way or another before nature gets it's hooks into the problem because that's always a whole lot worse than any controlled mechanism. Here we are. This one isn't that one. But it's the early warning system of what happens when it is that one. Our quest to support endlessly growing population via synthetic means and densification as though we can live in peace and prosperity forever that way needs to be called out now that we can see plainly how infeasible that is, and what the ultimate result is going to be. This time we get a highly contagious pathogen that's not tremendously deadly. Other times we've had very deadly pathogens that were not highly contagious. One of these times we're going to get one that's both. And with current density and ease of travel facilitating the level of spread we're seeing, the human race wouldn't survive a year. That would truly be the end in the worst fashion imaginable. If we haven't learned from this time that the time to fix it is before it happens, and that once it's out, there's nothing anyone can do, we're not ever going to learn, and the Mayan's may not have been off by many years.

NEStalgia

Zuljaras

@gcunit "To save the group, one has to abandon ship. "Grandmamma, take off your jewellery...""

AHHAHAHAHAH, thank you for that!

Zuljaras

Octane

@NEStalgia Most meat/seafood markets are fine in China. ''meat/seafood'' doesn't come close to describing the ''wildlife'' or ''wet'' markets, which are simply horrific. I also have to stress that only a small population of Chinese people in China consumes meat from wildlife markets, and it's not common to all regions.

China banned the trade of wildlife for consumption. But they trading for medicinal use is still allowed. Seeing how COVID19 probably originated in pangolins (which are mainly hunted for medicinal use), I doubt this ban is effective at all.

Octane

Anti-Matter

Even for me as half Indonesian Chinese people, if I have to eat wildlife animals just only matter of exotic taste or medical purpose, i would rather ban those disgusting delicacy. I felt disgusting to my half nationality if i have to see the truth like that.
That false tradition should be thrown away.
A fallacy that keep being continued by idiocy and futility.

Speaking about wildlife disgusting delicacy, i have ever watched a Cooking battle movie by Hong Kong peoples with 3 disgusting dishes as their battles: Braised Bear Paw, Elephant trunks and Monkey Brain soup. 🤮
Even just only film, to think again those disgusting ingredients that raised my concern to against wildlife animals as delicacy.

Edited on by Anti-Matter

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NEStalgia

@NotTelevision That's a fantastic and valid point, and it goes beyond the internet. I'm a pessimistic cynic overall. To me it exposes a truth: The public, ultimately, favors eugenics, because they see gain for themselves in the result. Nor are they incorrect, generally. They simply don't like to admit it consciously even to themselves. Which also explains a lot about murderous dictators & warlords through history and the politics around it. When push comes to shove, they really did represent the will of the public in all their horror shows. The public doesn't like to admit it plainly, but when given an excuse to, they'll support, endorse, and favor any form of disposing of the sick, old, and poor. They just need an excuse for it to be "unavoidable", "necessary", and most importantly, to be able to blame someone else other than themselves for doing it.

The internet doesn't often create different thoughts than people have otherwise. It just encourages them to say out loud, even if roundabout, what they're thinking normally as they smile and say "the right things" to your face.

@gcunit "At what point do you let go of your vice-tight grip on your belief that life is sacred and must be protected under all circumstances?"

When it's not you or someone you know.

Your point is valid, Machiavellian, realistic, but misses several marks. Ultimately I agree with your point. You can't spend infinitely on keeping people alive that aren't going to live long anyway, the world is massively overpopulated, that needs to be reduced, and it needed to be reduced 20 years ago, not today. And as I said to heavy, if we don't do it, nature will. And nature does a far messier, terrifying job of it.

And yet, therein lies the human problem. Going by the numbers, save the young, sounds fine and good while you're young. But everyone that's young gets old. Gets sick. You're not picking "someone else", you're just sealing your own fate because you can kick the can until later. But you're probably going to feel differently when that later comes and all the 18 years olds are voting your death because the spreadsheet gets the best numbers that way and it doesn't appear to affect them. The same folly repeated generationally through the detachment of youth. Govern by spreadsheet gives excellent datapoints and miserable lives. There's the human reality. Your life would be much better if the sick and poor and weak and stupid were exterminated right now. Everybody (that escapes the purge)'s lives would be better. You may not support and open search and destroy egenics operation for all the sick and poor and weak. But when a disease comes, it's easy to rationalize why it's all ok - natures doing the dirty work you preferred not to do yourself. You can get the result while absolving any guilt. Win-win.

Of course, until it's you or someone you know. Then somehow nature seems unfair.

Abandon the old sounds like a great mantra when "the old" doesn't affect your immediate world other than grandpa. Abandon the old sounds a lot worse when you become grandpa and aren't close to ready to crawl into a hole.

Yes the truly sick on their deathbeds, living on life support anyway are one thing. Generally they either already know that or are unconscious and don't know it anyway. At that point one is prepared for each day to be the last already. But that's not really the majority of the affected group.

Your argument is one that is both statistically true, and humanistically callous. Those two are not reconcilable. It also echoes a very youthful mindset that everyone experiences at some point. Seeing the world as statistics somehow seems more ideal the younger one is. It's also the danger I have with the pushes for "youth engagement" and "youth movements" in politics. The younger the people that are deciding the fates of others are, the less they understand the real effects of those choices. It's not that the people are invalid - they'll learn as everyone did. They're just not yet ready to make such decisions. Training is incomplete. Few people have the same outlooks of the same decisions they had at 20 when they're 40. Perspective grows more complex over time. Your view will change in time as well. You'll realize statistically your comment here is accurate....and yet also completely wrong....and despair that there's no good answer either way.

Welcome to your future depression. If you survive the week, of course.

NEStalgia

NEStalgia

@Octane Yes, I know what the wet markets are, that was indeed a simplification. Also of note it's not just wildlife - it's not like hunting boar or deer in Europe or the US. It's the handling of wildlife with a mix of living, dead, roadkill, rancid all packed together and stored in the open that makes the devil's brew here. Nobody hunts a deer that's staggering and foaming at the mouth and takes it home to the grill. But a vendor in the wet markets would. Easy kill and easy to sell. And they'd leave it on the ground for days with other meat, too.

Sure. It's all for medical use. Just like marijuana dispensaries here. Of course it is. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. The ban is ineffective because the regional governments are "encouraged" to make all problems vanish and to avoid any unrest. The markets are popular where they are. Leaving things be is the best career path for the local politicians. Like most edicts in that system it's not really an edict, it's an edict to the provincial governments to "take this problem out of our line of site, and prevent any public discord in the process." So long as the problem is sufficiently hidden, it's "taken care of."

That is an interesting bit about the pangolins, though. I had not heard a specific animal having been identified as suspected source this time. Maybe this time it really was the allowed part of the edict that made it through. But that seems less likely than cross contamination playing a role either way.

NEStalgia

Octane

@NEStalgia It's not confirmed yet, but the pangolin was probably involved, because they carried viruses that shared quite a lot of genetic material with COVID19, as well as bats. It's always the bats.

Octane

Octane

@HobbitGamer “The problem is not the animals, it’s that we get in contact with them,” neat little quote. Don't put a billion live and dead animals in cages on top of each other.

Octane

NotTelevision

@gcunit @NEStalgia Good on your answers. I was just posing the questions, since it seems like people have this feeling “well your almost done with life anyway” approach engrained and they don’t really bother to think why.

My feeling is that if you really believe in the sanctity of all life, then your reaction to an old person or a young person dying would be equal. That clearly isn’t the case for many and it sheds light on an interesting contradiction.

I personally struggle with being a pure utilitarian in this matter because I think judging the age and status of ones years (even if it’s only one) as solely a resource or contribution to the greater whole. I know there is value to thinking that way but maybe it wasn’t that person’s decision to “go” at that time.

Gc brings up an interesting point about a lame dog, but I think from the perspective of the many dog owners it is a gesture of compassion, rather than burden. You also bring up the economic aspects of illness, but I’d argue that comes down to what a country’s priorities are. If a country focuses enough resources on the health of its citizens your question wouldn’t be a question at all. The only reason why a family has to decide “can we cure Grandma’s cancer?” is because the decision is already made for them in the way the medical system is run. They’d obviously want to do it if the opportunity was available.

NotTelevision

HobbitGamer

@Octane Exactly. Same reason people shouldn’t prepare food in a bathroom. It’s just not sanitary. This isn’t the dark ages, or even the pioneering days.

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ThanosReXXX

@Vee_Flames I'm not pointing as you as not saying it's a hoax or not taking it seriously, and I also quite clearly mentioned that in my previous comment, but you did make statements about other viruses such as the ordinary flu and SARS, the latter of which have already been proven wrong, so those are the numbers I'm talking about, not literal ones that you supposedly mentioned, because you didn't mention any. I was speaking metaphorically.

@NEStalgia Well, besides the whole text wall preceding it, what you ended on in your conclusion, is just my point: it's NOT like actual Italy anymore. It's been heavily Americanized, they're putting stuff on pizzas that's not supposed to be on there, simply because it sells, and there's more milk and sugar in the coffee, because the pure stuff tastes too bitter for Americans. And let's not forget that hardly any of the ingredients are actually Italian, because almost all of it is made in the US, with ingredients and additives bought and processed on your shores, and not in Italy.

Anyway, back on topic, both you and @NotTelevision make some brilliant points, as there is no simple way to decide who lives or dies. I only have to think of my dad, who's 76, has diabetes AND Parkinson's, but due to the medication he's taking, he can lead a relatively normal life. He just has to mind his diet and exercises, but other than that, he's pretty fit. Also because he's always done some kind of sport or exercise (he's a 3rd dan black belt judoka as well) throughout his life.

The madness and hoarding has now reached my streets as well, though. I just came back from the supermarket, and you can probably guess what happened: no toilet paper, no pastas, no rice products, no canned soups, powdered soups/bouillons etc. etc. The people responsible for this are idiots. The government has now even issued an official statement telling people to stop hoarding, but Dutch people are a stubborn folk, so I wonder if it'll make any difference...

Luckily, I always have extra toilet paper, pastas and rice at home, simply because the first one is always handy, and I eat a lot of pasta and rice, so I always make sure I'm never without.

On a side note: yesterday, I kind of berated @1UP_MARIO for being too soon with posting a comedic video about this situation, but now I almost feel like I need to apologize to him, because when even my own friends are sending me cartoons, then I guess it actually IS already okay to make fun of it, so I guess I'll share what they sent me:
Untitled
I suppose making light of things is also kind of a coping mechanism, so perhaps it's something we actually need in times like these. There's already more than enough crap to worry about, even besides this virus...

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