Sonic Origins' launch yesterday saw the return of the blue blurs classic Mega Drive/Genesis games, all bundled together on modern consoles. The most noteworthy part of the bundle is Sonic 3 & Knuckles, which sees Sonic 3 ported to consoles with new, HD upgrades for the first time.
To help make this version possible, Headcannon — one of the developers behind the wonderful Sonic Mania — worked together with Sega to recreate the classic interlocking duo in the Retro Engine. Now that the collection is out, Stealth — the alias of Headcannon's Simon Thomley — has acknowledged some of the problems with the final release and shared some of the complications behind them on Twitter.
The full thread (which is quite long and well worth reading in its entirety) details how Stealth and the team submitted a build that they acknowledge needed some fixes, but Stealth also noted bugs in the final build that were not present in Headcannon's build — the result of Sega's integration of the team's work into the overall Origins game.
Stealth also states that the team wants "these problems to be addressed" and asked to do major fixes before Origins shipped, and enquired about possibly delaying the game, and was told this wasn't possible — which, with the game locked for launch on Sonic's birthday, is certainly understandable from a marketing perspective. Headcannon is currently waiting to hear back from Sega on whether it can implement some post-release patches.
It should be noted that Stealth is careful to clarify that the issue is complicated, and he and other members who worked on this version of Sonic 3 are also highly complimentary of Sega employees who are called out by name, including the head of Sonic Team, Takashi Iizuka:
Sega has yet to respond or announce if patches will be issued. While the issues cited above might go unnoticed by new players of the games, Sonic fans who started with the series in the '90s have been noting various differences. However, the largest changes — those affecting audio tracks credited to Michael Jackson and/or his team — have been attracting the more widespread attention, most notably from Yuji Naka himself.
If there are any updates to the game, we'll be sure to let you know.
[source twitter.com]
Comments 54
I was curious why I oftenly heard some issues from Sonic games ?
I had the game softlock for me at the Knuckles fight in Hidden Palace. i beat Knuckles, and the screen just didn't move on over to the Eggman scene where he steals the Emerald. It just stayed locked in the Knuckles boss room. I had to restart.
Glad they're speaking out and found them issues. Hopefully Sega could fix all these before they could decide on a physical release. I knew this collection was rush on Sega's part, more reason they care about the money than quality.
So what issues does the game have then?
I sure hope they’re allowed to patch it. These games deserve the best treatment and it would make me happy.
Sega. I have titles they put out years ago that still have unpatched bugs. Hopefully, with a title this visible, they'll actually do something about it
I've yet to encounter any serious issues myself, playing the Switch version of Sonic Origins through the Story Mode, but I've heard of some pretty severe issues particularly with the PC version of the game.
It's clear that SEGA insisted on Sonic Origins releasing on the June 23rd birthday date, at the expense of delivering a good quality product. Sonic deserves better than that, as do the customers.
Datamining suggests that the game is also wrapped around using a version of the Hedgehog Engine, which suggests that some of the staff behind Sonic Frontiers may've been involved in making changes to the actual games, too.
The main take-away seems to be that Stealth and Headcannon did their best under tough circumstances, and that business and development practices over at SEGA of Japan have lead to an inferior product. It's a damn shame, it's even lead to strange things like removing voice clips from Sonic CD, in what appears to be a strange mandate of "Classic Sonic doesn't talk".
So why do we have to rely on something like Twitter for this information? It's pretty abhorrent that we are expected to pay for a product in this state, and then find this stuff out along the way.
I would absolutely love to buy Sonic Origins, but I won't be double dipping this like I did Sonic Mania; I will be waiting for a fully patched physical release or grabbing nothing at all. I have these games multiple times over already, regardless of the tweaks... widescreen patches exist already, so the reasons to own this are slim already.
I totally would have supported the game either digital or physical if it had been a flawless release, and I have to commend SEGA for keeping their games available through the years. but crunch or no crunch, until it is actually done I can't spend the cash yet.
I usually hate posts where people say what a game is worth and what they are willing to pay, but I guess there is a line that needs to be drawn somewhere???
It's typical SEGA they always lock-in Anniversary releases or Holiday releases whether the game is ready or not.
It just leads to lack of quality. The release dates aren't based on a reasonable game development schedule or when the game is truly ready to launch but instead purely symbolic dates, and capitalising on the closest holiday season sales.
That's why I don't trust what they're saying with Sonic Frontiers. Being good enough for SEGA to publish does not mean being a polished, properly tested game.
I've not had any problems whatsoever so far, and I'm loving it. I've watched almost every review video and read every website review, and heard almost nothing of serious bugs or glitches. Most of the complaints I've seen/heard were from PC players, and I'd assume at least some of that is Denuvo, it can play absolute havoc with performance and stability depending on your exact PC hardware and software configuration - perfect for some, unusable for others. The polarized Steam reviews reflect this clearly.
I posted in a thread a while back on here that the fact that Stealth and Whitehead were distancing themselves from this as a package despite it being heavily based on their work was concerning, and lead me to believe that perhaps things like the way the menus and challenges were being integrated by Sega may cause glitches. Whatever these issues are, hopefully this can all be patched relatively quickly and easily, and by the time we get the eventual physical release, it will be perfect.
But again, to be clear, I've not had any glitches or bugs and its played perfectly for me. I'm delighted with it so far. Its a shame that it was rushed and this has caused friction and headaches for the devs. But its important not to over react, for many/most the game plays pretty much perfectly.
I'd only really recomend staying away from the PC version for now, til they remove Denuvo, like they did eventually with Mania. Console versions seem fine to me, and that seems reflected in the YouTube and online reviews too, for the most part.
I was wondering. The game is riddled with bugs. From Tails issues, frame rate drops, janky physics at times (sadly worse than the actual mobile ports). Not gonna lie but although its not a bug im pretty disappointed that Sonic 1s extra features (including Sonic + Tails mode and Super Sonic) are locked in a cheat mode (yes like the mobile ports) where I was hoping for something akin to mania options.
Sadly this is not the ultimate Sonic Collection. Not as it is. I really hope Sega allow for the team to give it the polish it needs.
As a consumer, I'm a little disappointed with how this game is packaged. Despite the games being rebuilt from the ground up, it still feels like a bunch of roms wrapped in a shared main menu.
I can totally see Sonic Team having outsourced the development of the individual titles before stitching everything together. There isn't much cohesion here.
In particular the saving system just feels a little archaic. Although a save feature on all games is welcome, why is this limited to a linear "one and done" playthrough of the games? Why no level select? Why different save files for characters, being unable to switch characters at will? Why unable to share emeralds between characters and playthroughs? The Sonic Advance series had a better save system than this game, and it came out 20 years ago!
Feel relieved I did not bite with this. There so many other ways to play these games. I have bought most so many times previously that my conscious is clear. Maybe down the road there will be a definitive/ultimate edition on sale for 4.99 that does not need a webpage to explain what is and is not included.
This is the future of gaming unfortunately.
corporate overlords once again stifling creative integrity.
it's clear this was a passion project for the dev team, and also clear that Sega just wanted the game out in any state.
what a sad display of corporate meddling.
Honestly you should pretty much just expect that a Sonic game is going to ship as a glitchy mess. It's been the standard for the franchise for like 25 years at this point.
To be fair, Sega has been guilty of rushing things and not polishing things all the way since the Genesis days.
Welcome to 2022, where 199x games who were rereleased 1056005 times with no issues come out buggy
@F_Destroyer Honestly this is far from the first time Sega's re-released one of the old Sonic games and completely messed it up. Look up the GBA port of Sonic 1 sometime.
Sega, Sonic Team... They could F up an anvil...
Sega has all it's priorities backwards. So strange.
I may just stay with the GameCube releases.
@Lizuka That doesnt make it better... Sega is not even the shadow to what they used to be, as a huge 199x sega fan, this saddens me big time
@samuelvictor Good news
This collection is far too overpriced for what it actually is anyway.
I feel for the team here. The guy’s passion for the projects really comes through in those tweets.
The part about Takashi Iizuka in his thread is very important. Some Sonic fans treat him like the devil.
Same with Miyamoto.
I really want this game but with mh rise expansion just around the corner I know im not gonna play it
Sounds like Sega have no respect for the original content
Sega has screwing up extremely sure bets down to a science at this point.
The bugs in Sonic 3 are obvious, but not major. When you die in Sonic 3, you respawn with the shield you had. (Obviously, you should lose your shield.) You can die in Sonic 3 if you out run the screen. That shouldn't happen. Sometimes you don't respawn in the correct place after a death. Some objects can now kill you from the sides, when they only use to kill you moving up or down. Sometimes it looks like you missed the spikes but they kill you anyways. Those are some of the issues.
Now, one complaint I have heard is about Tails in Sonic 2. People say that when Tails is off screen they can him hear him dashing, and flying, and trying to catch up to Sonic. THIS IS NOT A BUG. Why? In Sonic 2, originally, Tails was dead silent. He didn't have any sound effects to his actions. So turning them back on was obviously a design choice. (I kinda like it because it's funny personally.)
I'm playing as Tails in Sonic 1 now and sometimes he flies automatically to the top of the stage very fast 😅 So far I'm pretty satsified with this. I did not pay $45 for it so maybe my opinion would be different if I did lol 🙃
OK so this throws up a ton of questions... many we've asked many times before with a Sonic release.
However, some questions that particularly stand out to me.
1. If this is the state of Sonic Origins today. How bad was it before they had to delay?!
2. Why, in a year that already has Sonic Frontiers (allegedly) as the Sonic tent pole release, did SEGA feel they HAD to get this out the door before it was ready?
3. How can a Sonic Compilation game in 2022 be so poorly managed?! They've done the best part of a dozen of these games previously... there's your blueprint? Then, do some research? Ask some fans what they might like to see? Then, give the project respectable budget and treat your prized asset with some respect.
This debacle, the unfolding Frontiers worry, and Super Monkey Ball in the recent past... SEGA desperately need to make some changes at the top. Not necessarily get rid of people... but bring in some new talent to manage your back catalogue properly. Absolute shambles.
Ha! Between this, Frontiers, Persona & Hackers and that Hyenas game.
What-A-Joke.
@locky-mavo I know right?! And WE the fans of SEGA get told we moan too much and give SEGA too much grief?! I cannot understand how they get this stuff SO wrong.
I’ve had absolutely no issues with Sonic Origins, so I was surprised to hear that some people were experiencing major glitches.
This is why I can't get excited for upcoming Sonic Frontiers game Sega time and time again keep doing these mistakes why ruin your own games same thing happened with Sonic colours now this.
I'm really not hyped it take miracle for game to be good.
Well, that's definitely sad to hear. Respects to Headcannon and Stealth for being able to crunch enough to help release this, even if there are faults with Sonic Origins.
Why am I not surprised. Sega couldn’t run a P*ss Up in a Brewery
At this point I would be surprised if there wouldn't be any issues with sonic game.
I've noticed many bugs like others have pointed out. The boss in Carnival Night Act 1 is bugged. Standing on the floor as the floor lands killed me. As a hardcore Sonic fan, I am beyond done with Sega butchering simple things like re releases of these old games. But I'm also pretty done voicing my issues because there's just as many people willing to shrug it off and say go play something or say to stop being "negative" or "toxic". Headcannon did a great job, Sega not much. Anyways, fix that music Sega. Holy cow the last few stages of Sonic 3 sound like a generic Geneis game and that super music sounds like it came from Sonic 4!
@Mauzuri Are you sure about 'even more out of touch than Nintendo"?
I've been a Sonic fan for as long as I can remember, and it's absolutely depressing to see one of my favourite IPs and one of the most iconic video game characters suddenly become a joke due to executive meddling.
I want Sonic Frontiers to be a fantastic game and break the cycle, but it's hard to be excited when SEGA pulls stuff like this. So far most of the good things I hear from SEGA is how they support fan works unlike Nintendo.
@nocdaes Totally. People think I’m overboard whenever I (often) critique Sega management for handling things poorly. It’s because they actually handle things poorly, lol
Anyone who watches the "Wha Happun?" channel on YouTube will tell you that this happens every time!
Sega always needs to release Sonic games on his birthday. No ifs, buts, or maybes: it's releasing on June 23rd or everyone is fired; quality be damned.
You'd think by now they would have realised that nobody cares about that date and Sonic fans just ache for a game that they can be proud of but no, rush it out, we already ordered the cake...
Sega's lack of quality control for their flagship series never ceases to amaze me.
@Mauzuri I never thought I’d hear that in my life. Though I’d imagine they’d be more like Nintendo if they were actually still in the console race since quality exclusive titles and IPs is what has kept Nintendo afloat for over three decades now.
Honestly I feel like Sega is just more of an incompetent company than Nintendo, which leads to them making more mistakes regarding their games that are perceived as being out of touch. The thing is that Nintendo at least tends to frequently put out good titles despite being out of touch so they still keep a lot of fans. Sega has just piledrived their franchises repeatedly in the most botched way that I’m surprised they have anything left to their name.
The fact that there are still Sonic fans has probably more to do with the fan and furry community than anything Sega has done in the last ten years post-Generations (which was also rushed storywise and had the worst final boss that everyone seems to just forget about). With the only exception being the Sonic Boom TV show which they barely had a hand in.
To put it simply from my perspective: Mario can jump into a completely different type of game and make a landmark game in that genre (even creating new genres a la Mario Party). Meanwhile Sonic tries that and he faceplants spectacularly because it feels like no one is aiming to make a good game with him, they’re just trying to make something with Sonic so it will sell.
@thinkhector I cant remember if it was only Sonic 2 but the larger issue I experienced is that Tails would outright stop respawning. You are correct about off screen sounds but eventually they cease and Tails flies in. No so here. Additionally in Sonic 3 Special Stages tails doesnt jump when following Sonic. Its quite jarring.
I finished the entirety of that ‘continuous mode’ (Sonic 1 through 3K) and S ranked all missions but one Extreme mission (one of the 3k missions). Each game had its own set of bugs. Ranging from minor bugs (triggering the rock falling effects in Marble Garden on the upper path perpetually until i went the lower path and the miniboss overwrote it), annoying bugs (discrepancies in the physics that didnt exist in the mobile versions and level collision - Marble Garden spin top physics and Angel Island right after miniboss burns the level, theres a wierd invisible wall above the checkpoint), to bugs that outright kill, like going too fast or just break flow and require careful solutions due to getting stuck.
Its not like Sonic CDs console release a few years ago was 1:1 and i wouldnt expect it but it was more than acceptable. This release is very buggy and is in need of a lot of polish to set it right. This is supposed to be the ultimate sonic collection that killed off the other releases in various stores, so it should reflect this.
Anyone else notice some of the music in the museum even has the wrong name or description for them. Like Sonic 3D Blast's menu music is labeled as invincibility music??
@nocdaes
What’s even funnier, is the fact that in the past, the likes of Atlus, having told Switch owning fans, that they hear them, that they should moan about it, and that they should just remain hopeful.
Or the likes of SEGA basing their decisions on region exclusive releases, on a flop console, instead of the current market.
@Pichuka97 Yes! I noticed this too. Many of the Chaotix OST has incorrect labels too. It's really really sloppy.
@thinkhector The crush deaths you referred to are a known issue with the Retro Engine, the engine used to make every game in this collection. The hurtboxes in the games are now more accurate to the sprites, at the cost of things like crushing players to death when they would never in the original releases. It was made more well known with the release of Sonic Mania.
I have the Switch version and other than a couple times where Sonic was stuck in the ground for a brief second or so, I've not encountered many bugs. I have mixed feelings about this one in general, but so far, I wouldn't write this off as broken... yet.
@AJB83 true, major bug fixes are supposed to be the main priority when it comes to updates, some fixes may introduce minor bugs but still, major bug fixes always should come first, especially in games from large companies like Sega, Nintendo, etc. because it would lead to a failed product (I haven't tried 06, but idk why Sonic Team cut off trying new things entirely afterwards, could've cut ideas similar to those that made 06 a little well, let's just put it, a little messed up) however I am anticipating an update where I could play it without worrying about bugs (experienced a softlock and no-clip glitch in regular Sonic Mania while playing MMZ or Metallic Madness Zone where restarting the game or level is the only way to fix it, never got Origins yet but still waiting for the aforementioned update) the only thin Sega really needs to stop is the (cuss words, sorry) internal management issues (SOA management against Japanese Sega management) it sucks also to have a severely messed up development of this game (Headcannon did their best, Sega (cuss word again, sorry) up Origins' development) so uh yeah Sega really needs to get better, more considerate and not (another bunch of cuss words) staff in the higher positions (management) to organize their operations a lot because this, THIS kind of behavior is unacceptable and could kill the company (not being violence oriented here but kill would mean bankruptcy etc. reasons that destroy a company) so my remarks to Sega; GET (cuss word) ORGANIZED BECAUSE YOU ARE BEING SO INCONSIDERATE AND BEING AN (cuss word)! P.S. sorry for the profanity, this is just so displeasing. Not directing it to Headcannon though, they did their best and are pretty good at game development really like their work (Sonic Mania), though it is buggy, you could blame Sega for some or even most bugs (if they messed with it, like Origins) but Headcannon still has their fair share of the bugs to receive part of the blame but they deserve better treatment from Sega. Props to them (Headcannon)
@Dr_Lugae true, true, with this kind of crap from Sega, I really don't think they can be trusted like in 1991-1994.
How does this run on Switch?
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