Jun Senoue To Adapt Some Of Sonic 3's Music For Sonic Origins

Quite simply a massive deal breaker for me. Sad as it may seem, one of the things I was genuinely looking forward to most with Origins was playing Ice Cap Zone again, with the original music. This is really, really annoying.

Just get Ice Cap Zone in there, that'll be plenty.

Glad they finally gave confirmation.

Hoping someone makes a modded version on PC.

I'm actually intrigued to hear new official Mega Drive Sonic music. I don't have as much nostalgia for Sonic 3 as Sonic 1 and 2 (never played it much) so doesn't bother me

Praising the use of the original soundchip like it isn't the bare minimum requirement to have any sort of success with changing the soundtrack... Eurgh.

If GoldenEye does get confirmed next week and releases with all the original music in tact, then I really fail to see how SEGA haven't managed to reach an agreement on Sonic 3.

Music, soundtracks, SFX get marginalised all the time in videogames, but if you look through the greatest games of all time they pretty much always have amazing music in them. Sonic is no exception. You cannot simply swap out parts of the music - even though I am of course intrigued to see what they produce - it simply won't be the same.

It may not be the same music - but I think giving Jun Senoue a chance to arrange new tracks for a classic Sonic game, in the style of the original Genisis tracks using the original equipment he also used back then, seems like a good thing to me. I'm excited to see what he does for Origins!

@Jim_Wakelin Yes, I do agree with this. I can't help thinking a celebration compilation couldn't, I don't know, offer a choice between the original soundtrack and a remixed soundtrack - in full, for every game.

Or am I asking for too much? One of the most recognised and celebrated videogame characters of all time... an industry making billions of profit every year (OK not billions at SEGA, but still plenty of profit)...

I ask myself if I owned the Sonic IP would I be happy with this.

To be honest I don't care if they change some songs. I just want the games to run well and I will love them to include the 8-bit versions as dlc. I have already preordered the game...

"If GoldenEye does get confirmed next week and releases with all the original music in tact, then I really fail to see how SEGA haven't managed to reach an agreement on Sonic 3"

Because Michael Jackson's estate are awful. They won't even put his singles on Spotify, there's masses of material missing. And that's only the released stuff let alone, the unreleased.

I'm hoping they'll use refined versions of the beta tracks that got uncovered a few years ago

I mean, Buxer is the primary composer behind ice cap zone, couldn't SEGA strike a deal with him alone without Jacksons estate?

//Obligatory these devs want you to pay extra for animated backgrounds and sell it as "fun pack dlc" awareness post//

Sega cheapin out not paying the rent for those tracks

@NinChocolate pretty sure it’s the tracks owner being greedy.

@nocdaes rights issues can be far, far trickier than simply "throw money at it." Sometimes rights holders simply do not want to play ball. Other times rights are held up in a convoluted legal web involving multiple parties that becomes an impossible nightmare to untangle. Sonic 3 is my favorite Sonic game in part because of the amazing soundtrack, so this is definitely a blow.

But as someone who also dabbled in the late 90's PC port with the MIDI renditions of the alternate beta tracks (and wondered "what the hell are these songs? where's my Ice Cap??"), I'm also pretty excited to hear what Jun Senone can do with those. It's not gonna be the same, but after 11+ years without an official release, just happy to see the game back on modern hardware.

That's fine & dandy. I actually do want to hear the new tracks in Sonic 3 by Jun Senoue.

Yet music license issues do exist & are annoying but you can't really do much about it. And I do honestly find Sonic 3's music rights to be ridiculous.

And somehow Sonic CD doesn't suffer from the same music rights issues.

Well...aside from the lyrics in the JP "Sonic-You Can Do Anything" OP theme being missing the 2011 remake. And thankfully that was solve in Sonic Origins.

Games made in 2022 are still having those copyright issues that make sure games cannot be rereleased or will have to be rereleased with changes.

When the videogame industry will learn that videogames based on a license not be treated the same way as toys, T-shirts and coffee mugs? This is a rare case where they need to learn from Hollywood, where even after their licensing contracts expire, not allowing them to use copyrighted content they don't own in new movies, the old movies that were already released with that content can still be sold with no problems.

Thank god Jun Senoue is handling it. Hopefully it's good stuff and not subpar like Sonic 4's soundtrack

My favourite Sonic the Hedgehog 3 song is Angel Island Zone, made by Sega. Funny that it wasn't Michael but Brad Buxer that made most of those "Michael Jackson" bits. The only song I will miss is Ice Cap Zone but I can listen to it on YouTube. I'm excited about Senoue's involvement and those genuine sounds and music he's making for this release, I hope he doesn't disappoint! This collection is legendary, with native remakes, handcrafted cutscenes and genuine Mega Drive music. It shouldn't get the hate is getting by some people but I'm sure that, after release, it will be part of the video games history as one of the most important pieces ever released.

@tka060681 there’s nothing suggesting they’d need to be paid more than typical licensor royalty rates. Sega probably doesn’t want to pay out anything just for S3&K

A little disappointing, but intrigued to hear the new stuff from Jun.

I wonder how people that won't ever need to work to be rich can be so stingy about the artistic legacy of their father. Michael Jackson wasn't like that and he was the creator. His sons aren't and don't need any more billions.

Unless Senoue‘s idea of what Genesis music sounds like has evolved since Sonic 4 then I’m not looking forward to his take on the dull prototype music. If he still has that old mindset then imagine I he’ll force in the Sonic 1 drum sample which wasn’t used in 3 and put in references to his later works.

It will always seem strange to me that both Hydrocity acts are not MJ's, since those were the first tracks I was like yeah that bit is definitely a callback to Another Part of Me, but that bit has been appearing in later games too, like in SA1 and Generations. So it must be a funny coincidence, or the composer who did that track (probably Senoue) was aware of MJ's involvement and wanted to add a nod.

If you ask me the biggest loss is Icecap, not even for the Smooth Criminal bits, it's just all-around great.

I’m over ice cap zone. My landlord knew the Jetzons and booked many of their shows as he owned a popular club here in Phoenix in the 1980s. He has pictures with them all over his wall. When he knew them Sonic 3 wasn’t out yet

Yeah as I said before I will just stick with my Xbox 360 versions of the games that still play great today on the Series X.

@RupeeClock Good to assume things haven't changed since 10 years ago.

I'd want to at least hear one of these new adaptations before I pass any judgement.

@Banjo- He's the greatest musician of all time, so I can see why they can be stingy with him over other dead artists. We'll only start to see new material and unreleased stuff through a drip feed once the revenue for Jackson music starts to decline.

The beta Carnival Night Zone music was better anyway, can't wait to here it officially.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCUPREsTrkQ

I’ll miss launch bace zone tho😕

My purchase of Sonic Jam on Saturn several months back is feeling better and better...!

Not having all the original Sonic 3 tracks def gives me pause on but I'm a sucker for artists going above and beyond to make up for stuff like this so still day 1 Switch version for me

Don't use the Sonic4 instrument set!!!!

Does this mean they also can't use the new tracks from the '97 pc port? Those were great tracks

That sucks, but we all had a feeling this was going to happen. Still kinda on the fence if I want to get Origins and it’s not because of the music. I just have so many ways to play these games already. But some of those added features does sound tempting.

Hey, I'll take it. It sounds like they are doing the next best thing to getting the original music.

@PineappleLake My understanding is that he will either arrange the Windows port melodies or make new ones but, to be precise, Sega didn't confirm what Mega Drive tracks are affected.

I grew up with the Sonic & Knuckles Collection on Windows 98, and so I really really hope they're using those tracks. It would feel so weird to get brand new tracks when we already have some classic ones that have been used before.

Launch Zone and the first boss song do sound like a MJ songs.

@Clyde_Radcliffe I'm with you. I am actually looking forward to the new music. People are gonna complain, but this could actually be an improvement. Now if course the best option would be to have new music, but also be able to switch back and forth, but I never thought the Sonic 3 soundtrack was all that great to begin with. Sonic 3 ALSO has another fault that it makes it the least played game, Sonic's character Sprite doesn't look good. I hope they allow a swap out of this. (I don't think it does, but they did change Sonic in Sonic CD (optional) so it's not of bounds.)

I'm surprised Sega didn't just blame it on the boogie.

Interestingly enough people always point out the PC release of Sonic 3. They never mention that Sonic 3 was also released on the Wii (classic music and all). It also has the lock-on technology for Sonic 1 (Bluespheres) and Sonic 2 (Knuckles). I actually look forward to the new music as Sonic 3 was my least favorite it terms of music and character design. It would be cool if you could use Sonic's sprite from Sonic 2 or in this. (Sonic's Sprite in Sonic Mania is the bee's knees though.)

Going by his work on Sonic 4 that's a bit questionable

@Ellie-Moo haha. I see what you did there. Well played.

A bit disappointed but...im not selling it short yet. I still have various other versions if I want to hear the original stuff

Such a pity. I guess I’ll have to just play the game with the og soundtrack on the Mega Drive cart, Sonic Mega Collection (NGC), Sonic Mega Collection plus (Xbox/PS2/PC), Sonic Classic collection (DS), Wii Virtual Console, Xbox live (Xbox 360/Xbox one) 🤣

In all seriousness it’s a bit of a shame but not the biggest problem out there.

@Clyde_Radcliffe It must also be why they rendered "Stark-Raving Dad" noncanon on the Simpsons. I still have my original Season 3 Copy, but if Disney Plus had the episode, they would be subjected to a defamation lawsuit by the Michael Jackson Estate. You know, being forced to pay royalties, all because of "THE BOY!!!" If they hadn't taken the episode out of circulation, lock it in the Disney Vault, never to be released, or even burninated to oblivion and back, then Disney Plus wouldn't have lasted as long as it does.

@RupeeClock I know Jun made the soundtrack of Sonic 4, that's why I'm worried. The guy is a legend, but everyone has missteps here and there. Sonic 4 is not his best work, so I hope he can make good music for Sonic Origins

@RupeeClock Jun Senoue did work on Sonic 3, one of his earliest SEGA credits actually, along with series composer Howard Drossin, they would later go on to Sonic 3D Blast.

I believe Jun did the bonus stage music in Sonic 3

Lol as soon as I saw this on the live stream I posted in the last thread about Origins and tagged everyone asking about it. No one replied, so I went to bed. I wake up and now see theres a new thread with everyone talking about it. Darned time differences!

Add another tick to the disappointment box for this game. I give up, Sega. :/

To be fair though, it does seem that Sega is at least trying to deal with the problem in the best way possible--short of getting the copyright owners to agree to allow the use of their work for a royalty. So as big a disappointment this collection is turning out to be, all hope is not completely lost... at least not yet.

I just hope there'll be no more disappointments between now and its imminent release.

Not that big of a deal. Interested in the different music.

Yeah….. this decision, coupled with the fact it is digital only, is enough for me to give this a miss

Deal breaker for me. All of the ROMs are readily avaliable all over. Can watch the anime parts on YouTube.

I played the crap out of this game however many decades ago it was released in (what is it, like 5? 7??), but I have absolutely no memories of the music other than MAYBE the title screen. I'm sure if someone played the songs for me I'd be like "oh hey, now I remember", but not remembering the music makes me not mind if it gets replaced, especially if it's by someone with Sonic-cred.

@Matty1988 I think that the problem with Sonic the Hedgehog 4's music is mainly the instruments set as @Jayenkai said.

What I don't get is if the Ice Cap Zone song is basically a song by some eighties band called the Jetzons which Brad Buxer was a part of, why is it lumped into the group of songs tainted by Michael Jackson's influence which apparently his greedy heirs won't allow Sega to re-use in the game? If Brad also worked on the soundtrack, and that's his band's song, then why can't he at least allow Ice Cap's original release song? Obviously Carnival Night is a different story but I don't see why Ice Cap gets lumped in with all the Michael Jackson drama.

Sucks. I never did understand how all these license holders everywhere, I'm talking about James Bond 007, of course the Sonic game, other stuff they hold on to it so tightly and want so much money for it to be used, that it does not get published with their owned Works in it, it's so stupid to me I'm like what is the point of owning an intellectual property if you're not going to actually use it? So so stupid.

@UltraZelda64 I think it's all a case of "we asked MJ to do some music, this is what his team sent us."
It probably doesn't matter who originally created it, and all the things we've learned since. It's still under the license that has a big red "let's no longer use this.." sticker on it!

They have something that fixes this problem already, and it's called Sonic 3 AIR... It even runs with widescreen support. That being said, The only way I'd buy this collection now, is via a very steep Steam sale. At least on PC, you'd be able to mod the music back into the game...

@whitespy12 You're absolutely correct in what you say, and it clearly is very complicated.

Ice Cap Zone is particularly irritating though. As far as I am aware, it's an unreleased song from a defunct band. Surely SEGA are speaking to the wrong people if they can't secure rights to this? Or, they are not making a reasonable offer. That song is making the fine sum of nothing for whoever owns it... they should be snapping their hand off for any sort of payment.

NL should do some investigative journalism on the matter and try to find out what the problem is with The Jetzons.

In fact, the Wikipedia page for the band says they released 250 limited edition vinyl copies of the song in question in 2020 in a Sonic Blue colour with Ice Cap Zone featured. Why would SEGA agree to that, and then not be allowed to use the music in the game?

Also, why are we all OK with a defunct band from the 80s essentially holding one the biggest videogame characters of all time hostage?!

NL should do some digging - it would be interesting to hear more on this.

@nocdaes I support your idea. Fewer articles and more research!

@Banjo- I actually, just had a thought on this. They haven't actually confirmed which music is being changed as far as I can tell? Perhaps Ice Cap Zone is actually unchanged... That limited edition vinyl was only 250 units - you could print that in no time at all. Maybe SEGA did reach an agreement on Hard Times after all? The timeline would certainly work.

All the MJ rights related issues I accept as being complicated, so perhaps it is limited to those?

I don't have much nostalgia for this game, so I'm fine with the changes. Can imagine it's disappointing for some.

Bit disappointing, but it's at-least nice to get confirmation and plus, Jun's music rocks!

@nocdaes No, Sega hasn't said what music is included. Ice Cap Zone is great. Who knows why it's so difficult to work it out but while MJ was alive, the soundtrack of Sonic 3 was never an issue. What is stopping Brad Buxer when he seems proud of his contribution and when that song is based on an unreleased song from a defunct band? Are MJ's sons unreasonable? If Brad worked with Sega to release that vinyl, it seems that Sega and Brad Buxer/The Jetzons are not to blame.

Nintendo only added a music player to Super Mario 3D Almost-All-Stars and skipped a game that they fully own so I disagree with people saying that it's Sega's being stingy because they have hired people to remake the games, to arrange or create music and to make extra content such as the cartoon cutscenes. There is a lot of value in Sonic Origins and if something's missing it's not Sega's fault. Someone's being unreasonable and I think it's Jackson's heirs.

Great comment, man.

@GrailUK

It’s extremely disappointing for me. I grew up with the Genesis version of the game and it’s my favorite sonic game ever made.

I dunno if it’s a deal breaker though… I’ll miss Launch Base for sure.

@Banjo- The actual compositions are pretty naff, they're all built on 20-30 second loops

@Matty1988 Yeah, I paid attention to them now and you're right, they aren't great.

Insert Roblox "Oof" here.

The original "before MJ" tracks are much less good than what ended up in the final game

I would imagine it had to do with Michael Jackson, his original involvement in the music, his death and recent controversies.

It could be out of respect. It could also be out of copyright concerns. Michael did a lot to protect his signature sounds so Sega may just be tied up with legal mumbojumbo.

Ice Cap Zone's music is a painful loss.

Oh well that makes this a pass. What interest I have in sonic is primarily the OST so if it isn’t the OG I have little reason to buy this.

I’m not too upset because I’m genuinely looking forward to hear what they’ve come up with as an alternative. BUT, it is unfortunate folks won’t be able to hear the sheer bangers that were in the original. They were part of my childhood.

@AlanaHagues I don't believe the Act 1 Boss Music is going to be remixed, specifically because Origins doesn't have Sonic 3, it has Sonic 3 & Knuckles. When the two games are combined, certain tracks are replaced with their Sonic & Knuckles version, the title theme, Knuckles theme, the Act 1 Boss theme, the invincibility jingle, etc. The other tracks you listed are very likely on the chopping block, but unless Origins will actually use it's music library to allow swapping to certain soundtracks in game, I don't think the Act 1 Boss theme from Sonic 3 will be in the game. They are probably going to use the one from Sonic & Knuckles.

"Michael Jackson isn't credited with composing the music for the game, and SEGA has previously denied his involvement, though other sources have claimed that his removal from the project is due to child molestation allegations. Buxer also claimed in 2016 that the musician wanted his name removed himself "if they couldn't get it to sound better"."

https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2022/06/brad-buxer-reconfirms-michael-jacksons-involvement-with-sonic-3s-soundtrack

It very well may be Buxer, not the Michael Jackson estate, that won't sign off on allowing these songs, if he's trying to get his name removed from the credits because he's displeased with the way they sound in the game.

@Blaze_Firestorm Just thought I'd point this out in case you didn't know how Sonic Jam handles the music. While the music is the same, the soundtrack plays differently on Saturn. Take Sonic 1, you're running through Green Hill Zone, and you hit an invincibility monitor. The invincibility music starts up, and then there's a noticeable gap once it ends. Instead of the Green Hill Zone music picking up where it left off, the track restarts from the beginning. Sonic Jam remade the Genesis games for the Saturn, and it's one of the quirks from doing so instead of emulating the games.