
Remember Gamevice? The company that created a set of detachable controllers for the iPhone and subsequently launched a patent case against Nintendo and Switch? That was back in August, and the firm eventually dropped the case, but now it seems it's back at it again.
The firm has filed another claim with the US International Trade Commission (ITC), which has now agreed to look further into the matter. The ITC has announced it is investigating, "certain portable gaming console systems with attachable handheld controllers and components thereof," and that it, "has not yet made any decision on the merits of the case." Gamevice is asking for the US to block all imports of Nintendo Switch based on said patent infringement, but Nintendo has a long history of beating these kinds of cases so it seems unlikely to cause the Big N too many issues or, ultimately, halt Switch imports in the US.
Nintendo has stated publicly it has, "nothing to announce on this topic." Of course, we'll keep you updated on the story as we learn more.
Let us know what you make of this developing story in the comments section below...
[source reuters.com]
Comments 130
You've got to admire their balls.
Patent trolls
When your business is failing resort to patent trolling
Maybe the creators of the Model A should sue other auto makers. I mean other vehicles have wheels and seats and steering wheels... Obviously they are all the same.
Hm... I wonder if this might just have something to do with the apparent runaway success of the Switch...
@AlexOlney I would never admire anything that is about to be crushed. Especially a body part as sensitive as that...
I only pity them because they're never going to win. It's a prime example of an exercise in futility.
All I can say is LOL
Well, as much as I don't want to see the Switch be stopped in its tracks, if it's a legit claim then Nintendo deserves to be held accountable and punished accordingly under the law, just as it would do to anyone else if the tables were turned. I mean, see how much of a douche it is when it comes to anyone even remotely using its IP in YouTube videos for example--and I personally don't even think half of those claims are legit.
If I recall correctly, the last case ended pretty unspectacularly. This'll end like that too.
Tsss... losers...
Saw this reddit post earlier today.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nintendo/comments/7gnkb7/i_used_the_switch_recently_in_a_presentation_to/?st=JBNYDQK5&sh=f0da48e3
Seems like Gamevice's case is baseless.
@aughra Erm the patent for automobiles did exist and was enforced; it's just that patents generally only last 14-20 years depending on the type. The purpose of the patent system is to protect properties and ideas for a time in return for making them public.
@AlexOlney They won't have any balls when Nintendo snips them off.
They dropped it once, cuz they had nothing, now they hope to word-fu their way to damages.
Common sense wants Gamevice to STFU
God please let 'em win this case
@kopaka Why? You want the Switch to be taken off shelves?
This isn't likely to go anywhere and it's highly unlikely the block of Switch sales will happen. Alex's comment at the top sums it up nicely for me.
Well then you might as well ban everything that attaches to any kind of screen. I mean, there's a million different kinds of these things for phones and iPads. The joy-cons at least function separately which I'm sure is the angle Nintendo is going to go on. Nintendo is going to hammer home the point that the Switch's main purpose is for playing anywhere with anyone. That's certainly been evident in their marketing.
No, I don't remember Gamevice, neither will anyone else.
Gotta aim above the goal to score, I suppose. Even if this ends up just being an expensive PR stunt for Gamevice, then it will at least cast a bit of attention back on their device.
They’re actually not an awful company and the Gamevice itself is a pretty nice product, especially the iPad Mini version. Having said that, this lawsuit seems bunk.
What I don't understand is why their ultimate goal is to make the Switch essentially non-existant in the US, PR stunt or not, it seems like they'll never be able to do it, and if they pull it off they'll probably screwed over their company even more since now they'll have potentially millions of Nintendo fans hating them.
American software patents are handed out like sweets afaict. Is it the same for hardware? They may well have a "valid" patent, forcing Nintendo to either find prior art or pay up.
We don't all know Nintendo are going to win this. Having seen the Samsung vs Apple debacle it's clear that "being an American company" is a massive plus in these sorts of cases.
@AlexOlney Do you think Nintendo will ever be forced to stop Switch sales?
Of course I do not remember Gamevice. It's a sad sad noname company that nobody cares about, and this stupid PR-stunt won't change that. Have fun wasting your money, Gamevice.
What an annoying company... Do they have a grudge against Nintendo or something?
Just give it up, the only games people play on their phones use the touch screen. If you're at home or at a desk, sure you might bluetooth a controller for some games, but not carry about controller attachments on the way to work.
The Switch at least offers something phones can't keep up with, current gen console games. While not a PS4 Pro or XBONE X, its pretty darn close enough to what those systems can offer, and the bonus of first party exclusives.
Mobile gamers are perfectly happy with whipping out their phones to play something for 5 mins without buttons. Those that want a traditional handheld set up buy a handheld console like Switch or 3DS.
Did they sue the Wiki Pad people?
I have that. Use it with an iPad to remote-play PS4 and PC games around the house - mostly when my girl using the TV
cool gadget - but nothing to do with the Switch - design is night and day.
Nintendo should sue them back for using dpads, analogue sticks, ABXY buttons and triggers.
Stupid vultures, I hope Nintendo just straight up destroys them court, rather than settle.
@ThanosReXXX They don't want to win, they want to settle, which I don't think Nintendo has ever done in a patent case.
@ThanosReXXX
Immediately thought of you when I read about this last night on Engadget. Thought about sending a quick note to you on here but it was late and I wanted to go to bed, and I figured it would show up on here today in some form. And here it is.
Surprised you jumped so quickly on Nintneod's side after all of those pics we posted on here 2 years ago. You and I probably showed half a dozen prior art devices, using those pics as evidence that Nitneod would NOT make NX like that b/c it already existed, and looked ridiculous in most cases.
Here's the article where I found out Wikipad was a thing. You somehow weren't in this thread but my post #101 sums it up.
https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/07/nintendo_reconfirms_march_2017_nx_launch_and_quality_of_life_concept_development
FYI Wikipad the company changed it's name to Gamevice. Probably after Wikipad was such an abject failure. But Wikipad was similar and it was years before NX, never mind Switch. If Wikipad/Gamevice didn't at least make the effort to defend it's patents, what's the point in even having patents? (That's a rhetorical question and theoretical debate for another time.)
Oh, and here's the Endgagdet article, they lead w/ the correct picture of the correct device, this lawsuit is about the patent for the Wikipad, not the clip on controllers.
https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/01/nintendo-switch-wikipad-gamevice-import-investigation-patent/
@Pahvi "patent troll"
Some people just like throwing around words they've read on the internet even though they have no idea what they actually mean.
"I got two words for them....."
@Arehexes "Did they sue the Wiki Pad people?"
No, b/c they ARE the Wikipad people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamevice
Why would they sue themselves?
Yeah, I can see similarities. They both have buttons and analogue sticks, also they are both grey.
here's a helpful definition on the subject...
what exactly is a patent troll?
A patent “troll” – or the more polite "PAE" (or patent assertion entity, a term I coined) is an entity that asserts patents as their primary business model. The term "PAE" is narrower than the commonly used “NPE” (or non-practicing entity) because PAEs *don’t *include entities like startups and universities whose goal is to get their technologies out there.
Naming and name-calling aside, the key is that PAEs aren’t focused on getting technology developed or making products – assertions are their “product.” That’s not inherently good or bad, and in fact, PAEs support a vibrant secondary market for patents, which can address the needs of small inventors who have been shut out of the system for years due to high costs of enforcement.
But this model is concerning because it gives PAEs a freedom to litigate that most companies don’t have: Trolls can sue customers, because they don’t have any. Trolls can sue without worrying about countersuit, because they don’t make anything. Trolls don’t have to worry about reputational or other harm to their core business, because asserting patents is their core business model.
However, PAEs also have to worry about things that companies don’t. When backed by public investors, for example, PAEs need to show consistent trolling returns, quarter after quarter.
I hate companies like Gamevice, this clearly makes no difference to their business and I can't see how it infringes their patent. For a start theirs a rent even detachable controllers as they aren't part of the device that you stick them onto. Then of course you have the fact that the mobile and console gaming markets are so far apart from one another they are almost separate industries, meaning they can't even claim the Switch has any commercial effect on their business.
I always find it funny that Sega, Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Atari and a few others happily copied each other's controllers, rumble, motion, memory cards and other things with no arguments about copyright, yet these silly little companies who have nothing to do with that market just want some money for doing absolutely nothing disgust mep
@Spiders Neither of which is going to happen. All they will get to settle for, is the fact that they're going to lose, BIG time, and they'll probably have to pay up as well, for all the costs that Nintendo will have to make during this farcical event.
@rjejr Yeah, I know. But as of today, I'm literally older and wiser, and I switched back (pun intended) to my grumpy, mad Titan self, and even though I never thought NX was going to be the Switch that (almost) everybody now knows and loves, it's here now, and I've long since accepted that.
And concerning this court case: it hasn't got a single leg to stand on. The link in comment #11 has a clear explanation on the whole matter, coming from someone who actually knows about laws and rights, and he also sees no way that Gamevice (dumb name anyway, but so was 'WikiPad') is ever going to have any case to speak of, let alone make a single penny off of Nintendo's current console.
There are simply too many dissimilarities between the two products, so no sane judge is ever going to rule in their favor.
Like I said in my initial comment, they're just trying to hitch a ride to benefit from the success of the Switch, but it's going to be a very bumpy and unpleasant ride for them instead. And once Nintendo has ditched them, the next stop will be the transfer to the E3 hype train.
Now THAT is going to be quite something...
Here's a SUMMARY of GAME DEVICE (WIKIPADS) original complaint...
Quinn Takes Aim at Nintendo
Nintendo‘s Switch gaming console is back in the sites of Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan. Quinn client Gamevice, a maker of gaming consoles that attach to mobile phones and tablets, sued Nintendo and Nintendo of America for patent infringement in the Northern District of California last week. Gamevice says Nintendo’s Switch, which debuted in 2016 as the “home console that you can take anywhere,” infringes its patented technology.
Quinn co-founder John Quinn and partner Chris Mathews headline Gamevice’s team. The pair filed a similar complaint against Nintendo last August in the Central District of California, then dismissed it voluntarily in November. The new complaint is more specific about venue—it notes that Nintendo of America has a regular and established place of business at a specific address in Redwood City—and asserts two new patents obtained in September and November.
Gamevice v. Nintendo alleges that when the Switch’s Joy-Con controllers are attached to the Switch console, which they must be to recharge, that Gamevice’s patents are infringed.
@ThanosReXXX So, happy birthday well wishes are in order, or did I read that incorrectly? If so, do something better than post on here man!! Go!! Get!!
And I still think whether the case has a leg to stand on or not, if you're going to patent something as a company then you might as well go after people you feel stole your patent. You might not win, but if you aren't going to defend it you might as well let it go into the public domain and give up. Who knows, you may get lucky and get a judge who's a Sega fan and mad at Nitnedo for Sega going 3rd party.
@rjejr No, you understood perfectly fine, hence the bold typed "literally" in my comment. And not to worry: at 5pm local time, I'm going to a party for me and my aunt, who shares my birth date, and we're going to have drinks and food on a hired boat that'll cruise the Amsterdam canals.
As for Gamevice: sounds more to me like the bad part of "looks like a duck", but there, all similarities end.
Gamevice has no similar motion controls, no IR remote, no HD rumble, no separate two-player action and so forth, and so forth. It's all in that link I mentioned, which was actually an interesting read.
There are more than enough differences in the joycons and these in form and fuction alone to obliterate this lawsuit. Then bring in the fact that joycons are not meant for tablets or phones, but for Nintendo’s own console, so there was never any direct competition anyway. If they could claim a patent on something as stupidly general as attachable controllers, then we wouldn’t all be using wireless gamepads, because the first maker of wireless controller would still have a patent on a now obsolete product from the 90’s, and we’d still be tethered to our consoles in 2018. (If we wanted to play on any other consoles besides what the wireless controllers play on). That would become a monopoly on progress. Who would want that. I mean other thsn the patent trolls themselves.
@AlexOlney
I'm not fond of admiring other's balls, but on your advise I shall admire some balls.
Patent trolls make me think there may be a guilt-free use for processing humans as packaged meat products after all.
Sheesh, any credibility the case may have had starts to look thin when they want the immediate halt of import of a product they already dropped their first suit over. It's like demanding execution of the accused murderer before the trial "just in case."
Not sure what exactly in the patent they're targeting, but I really can't see how an ACCESSORY manufacturer that makes controllers you slip over the screen ends of a phone has a leg to stand on for patent infringement against a closed console PLATFORM with proprietary media and removable controllers that dock on hard rails with direct on the wire communication..... from a company that's been making portable consoles (without removable controllers) for over 30 years...... Especially when their own product uses the (patent expired) D-Pad and diamond button layout designed by the accused.....
@rjejr I don't know how their patent reads, but Nintendo's patents are usually very very specific....meaning I find it unlikely there's a good hook to latch onto. The devices are quite different despite visual similarities.....but most of the visual similarity is GameVice using expired Nintendo patents...... Sure, you have to sue to defend your patents....but suing only successful products for very unrelated products doesn't count (hardmount controllers on a closed console is not a wireless controller for universal phone use. I haven't read the Nintendo patent but I'd be amazed given their usual specific-ness if it wasn't expressly for a rail-mountable controller.)
@ThanosReXXX "cruise the Amsterdam canals."
What's this? I thought you people all speed skated down the canals on your way to work? (snicker)
@NEStalgia We do, sometimes, just not in the summer time...
@moavi Seems like Gamevice itself doesn't even know what it is actually making/producing, or it's their lawyers that can't formulate anything correctly, even if their lives depended on it:
"Gamevice, a maker of gaming consoles that attach to mobile phones and tablets"
I sincerely have to wonder since when a controller attachment for a smart device came to be classified as an actual full-blown "gaming console".
Based on that specific line right there alone, the whole case could already be considered null and void...
And "gaming" console?
Oh, those poor people...
They're probably just trying to get publicity at this point.
@ThanosReXXX "Gamevice has no similar motion controls, no IR remote, no HD rumble"
So, if somebody patented the automobile, then the guy who made a car base don that patent but added a radio and air conditioning is ok, b/c he added a few niceties to the car? Gamevice itself is just a pair of controllers for somebody elses tablet, so thats' like selling tires for a car, nothing to do with the car, but the Wikipad, which is how they started, I think has enough similarities - a 7" touchscreen tablet w/ detachable controls - to warrant them presenting a case, win or lose. I mean I'm sure they have lawyers on retainer, so they are paying them anyway, might as well have them do something to earn their paychecks.
“Only in America” - applies here.
Sour grapes, eh? Just keep trying, Gamevice. Bunch o’ money hungry clowns.
@rjejr The best bet I could make on this, and all they'll be paying those lawyers for, is that they simply want their name and their gadget back in the public eye again.
Wikipad is not the same as Gamevice, so they can't sue on that, and Gamevice cannot operate on its own, separated from a smart device, which the JoyCon actually can, as well as also in two player mode, yet another thing the Gamevice can't do.
The differences are FAR more essential than a few niceties.
But seriously, read that information/link in comment #11, it's not an essay, in case you might suspect that: it's just a compact piece of text, so it will take you all of two minutes to read it, and it really says it all, and it's written by someone who is in the process of becoming a lawyer, so he probably knows what he's talking about.
@ThanosReXXX
Supposedly, the LAWFIRM that GAME DEVICE is using against NINTENDO is one of the topone , and their founder QUINN is one of the best litigators in the U.S.
...he actually was doing some work for CORPORATIONS that were doing business with WALL ST. BANKS...prior to '08...and once the RECESSION HIT--and companies he represented were going down the S-HOLE...bankruptcy/layoffs, he turned around and SUED the WALL ST. BANKS...
I don't think this LAWSUIT is going to end anytime soon for NINTENDO...
...but I'm curious if the BIG N will just SETTLE for an undisclosed amount...
...kinda like that subsidiary company that ZENIMAX (owner of BETHESDA) owns, that SUED FACEBOOK-- over their OCCULUS VR...
...ZENIMAX got a cool $500 MILLION from that case...
@rjejr While true, I really doubt their lawyers fully grasp Nintendo's own patent specifics. If there's one thing Nintendo's amazing at it's patent drafting (thankfully, it's way better than their marketing ) They almost never miss dialing it to have no loopholes and for the very specific implementation of their product to be the patent. It's the one big plus to their VERY tight top-down organization. A 7" touch screen tablet with detachable controls sounds similar, however, it's also a "generic patent" which may not be enforceable on its own. Consider the tablet portion was a Tegra design....I.E., the tech partner that they built their product with is the mastermind of this one as well..... Plus delving into prior use: Nintendo already invented that control layout and has the expired patent to prove it. Nintendo already had decades of that control layout or subsets of it used with "portable devices". For that matter so does Sony. And Nintendo already used that layout on wireless detached controllers (Wii, Wavebird, WiiU).....the only difference is the merging of the wireless layout use with the portable device and an attachment mechanism. Proving that doing that was a patent infringement rather than a new configuration of existing patents, however..........that's all but hopeless. This is something you go after NEW products or new companies for. Not implementations in line with decades of product lines, when you're the upstart copying their old designs more than they're copying anything of yours. Even if they get a win, there's a 0.000% chance it stands a leg in appeals.
@NEStalgia "but I really can't see how an ACCESSORY manufacturer that makes controllers you slip over the screen ends of a phone"
You're writing based on the article aren't you?
It's not about the grip on Gamevice accessory controllers that are in the article and picture, it's about the Wikipad, a 7" tablet that has detachable controllers.
http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2017/08/16/nintendo-switch-gaming-console-patent-infringement-suit-filed-gamevice/id=86799/
Patent info:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/9126119.html
Gamevice controllers are basically aftermarket parts for a phone or tablet, but the Wikipad was a tablet and detachable controllers sold as one unit. There's a difference.
Maybe if the article had a picture of the Wikipad and talked about what it was, rather than leading with this sentence - "Remember Gamevice? The company that created a set of detachable controllers for the iPhone" - you wouldn't be so confused.
@moavi They have some of the best litigators in America, Nintendo has some of the best and toughest lawyers in the world. And over their entire history, they've only ever lost a small handful of cases, I really don't think that Gamevice has a clear cut or potentially successful case on their hands, unless there's something else going on that we the public don't know about (yet).
Guess we'll see how it turns out, eventually, since it will be featured on here either way...
EDIT:
P.S.
What's with all the capitals?
@ThanosReXXX "Wikipad is not the same as Gamevice, so they can't sue on that"
I'm a little confused by this sentence. If the Wikipad device was the same as Gamevice device then I would agree they can't sue, b/c Gamevice is nothing like Switch, but its' b/c Wikipad isn't like Gamevice, it is like Switch in a way, that they can try.
Wikipad is actually worse from a patent perspective to compare despite seeming more visually similar. The controller issues are still the same as the current GameVice, and the tablet portion is a generic patent. If they were to claim a patent on 7" Android tablets they'd have to go up against bigger companies than Nintendo, though they wouldn't get that far considering theirs was just an nVidia tablet to begin with. Switch has a proprietary OS with proprietary software and a proprietary media loader, and doesn't run Android or any Android software. It's a similar looking but very different product (we've been down that path when Apple tried to sue Samsung for the flat rectangle smartphone patent.....that was thrown out fast as a generic patent.)
Sadly, the USPO will issue a patent as long as you pay them. Doesn't mean it's a valid patent that holds up in court. Even if you're Apple.
Demonstrating Switch's unique behavior, features, and operations isn't a difficult task. In tech it's too easy to have similar looking products that function entirely differently.
Though this all reminds me. Amazon's obnoxious "One Click" ordering patent should be expiring soon. Other sites can get rid of having to add extra steps just to not violate the patent soon.
@rjejr But the law suit is about the current iteration of their product, not about the Wikipad. That link I keep referring you to, mentions in detail that only one of the four parts of the claim concerns a "tablet device", while the other three specifically mention "detachable controllers" and the name Gamevice, so they themselves also specify it not being about their previous device.
I'd be VERY surprised if they're going to win this, or even get a single penny. And Nintendo probably has more stamina as well. Last time, the Wikipad/Gamevice creators voluntarily stepped out of their initial law suit, probably because back then, they already recognized the futility of it all.
And now all of a sudden, their lawyers somehow convinced them that for some reason, they actually DO have a case, perhaps after digging through and dissecting every single document and patent that they could find.
I'm just not seeing it, but then again: I'm no lawyer. Just someone that recognizes and calls BS when he sees it...
@NEStalgia "however, it's also a "generic patent" which may not be enforceable on its own."
Well how do you find out if it's enforceable or not other than doing what they are doing? I never said they would win, just that trying seemed like a worthwhile endeavor.
This is why I don't buy Gamevice's stuff. What they're doing is pretty much criminal.
It would be interesting to see how this all end.
Hah, it'll be hilarious if Nintendo loses.
Cya
Raziel-chan
@ThanosReXXX Those kind of shark law firms aren't selling victory to their clients. They're selling the service of the hope of victory. It pays quite well, and you don't actually have to succeed. US law revolves around who can buy the judge or already owns him. That's probably these guys. But while they can sell the great image of a victory from THEIR judge.....it all falls away in appeals when it's no longer their guy..... They get their money either way.
There's always someone offering to sue a successful product. And tech makes it seem easy because it's all similar because it's all building on a theme.
But demanding a halt on imports as your opening move kind of shows your hand. It's an over the top theatrical drama from the opening salvo, and that tends to not sit well.
@rjejr Precedents. An honest legal team (I suppose that's like saying "dry water") would know precedent and the likelihood of a differentiated versus generic patent. It's not like there's a shortage of suits regarding mobile tech to reference for precedents.....
Pretty sure I speak for a lot of people when I say Gamevice.....piss off.
@NEStalgia It not only shows their hand, it distinctly feels as overplaying their hand.
But like I said: it's probably just to give them some much needed marketing. Whether or not it'll end up being negative marketing for them, definitely remains to be seen...
Well, I'm off for now. Gotta catch a boat to a party dinner...
Later!
GameVice you need to look at the design parents!!!!!!!!! GameVice controllers connect to third party phone and tablets!!!!!! Well the Switch and joycons is just a single product!! Dismiss it again or you will have to pay Nintendo for a claim!!
Lol, no. There’s huge differences between the products for a start, you know, seeing how one is a dedicated gaming device and the other a mobile phone/tablet accessory. This isn’t about WikiPad, as some seem to be suggesting.
They just seem bitter and desperate for attention, which isn’t just ugly maaaaaan.
Gamevice, this lawsuit you are starting again is not going to get you anywhere
@ThanosReXXX I agree with you that this case has a very poor chance of going Gamevice's way.
From my basic understanding of copyright and patents, for them to even have a case, they'd have to prove at least two of these three things:
1. That there was copying of intellectual property involved.
2. That the Joycons are derivatives of their work.
3. That there would have been no other way for Nintendo to have created the Joycons other than from copying their work.
Point One is very difficult to prove, so that's on the lawyers' skills. It's very unlikely Gamevice can prove that. Point Two is the linchpin of the case, but is very dependent on proving either points 1 or 3. I very much doubt Gamevice can prove Point Three, considering that it is easy to argue the design dissimilarities, and Nintendo's rich(er) history regarding controller design that they can easily fall back on. (In fact, didn't they say at launch that the Joy Cons were a culmination of the designs of all prior Nintendo consoles?) Failing that, Nintendo can argue that they merely built upon the concept (not copyright-able/patent-able) and not the work (point of copyright and patent contention).
This can go in a very similar way as the Michael Jordan Jumpman logo case:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nike-lawsuit-jordan/nike-defeats-appeal-over-iconic-michael-jordan-photo-jumpman-logo-idUSKCN1GB2R7
EDIT: here's another article showing the Jordan photographs in question (warning: adblock-check)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/darrenheitner/2018/02/28/nike-earns-9th-circuit-win-in-jumpman-copyright-case/
@citizenerased while that would be amazing, it would be difficult (and costly) for Nintendo to argue that they own the patents to the button design of modern controllers. It could be considered industry standards by this point, in a similar way as the keyboard is to personal computers. While I don't have the actual cases to use as references, you can also probably look up the copyright issue regarding Pac-man's scoreboard and how they couldn't copyright it because it was too rudimentary. (May or may not apply to Gamevice v. Nintendo, but it's a cool bit of information.)
I may not have gotten the finer points right as I'm not a lawyer, but that's my basic understanding of the situation. TL;DR, Gamevice is stirring a hornet's nest that is very averse to settling.
Gamevice is an idiot.
@ThanosReXXX
Maybe they are trying again b/c as you pointed out their last attempt had stupid stuff like this in it -
"Gamevice, a maker of gaming consoles that attach to mobile phones and tablets"
I noticed that the first time I rad it as well, before reading your comment. I never posted about it b/c I can't type Nintendo so it seemed hypocritical of me, but I wouldn't be surprised if they tried again b/c their first attempt was a mess.
I also got the impression their first attempt was at a level that required a higher standard and burden of proof, and now they are trying to do an end around in a lessor court.
And no, I don't think they are expecting to win, but do you follow the nutty cases in this country?
https://www.protectamerica.com/home-security-blog/spotlight/5-cases-where-the-burglar-sued-homeowner_14222
@NEStalgia "It's not like there's a shortage of suits regarding mobile tech to reference for precedents....."
Lawsuits are like robocalls for car warranty extensions and home alarm services. Nobody in their right mind is going to buy anything from a cold call, b/c either it's going to cost you, or it's going to be a scam and cost you even more. Yet every day people get phone calls from these sellers who tell you it isn't a sales call. So why do we keep getting all of these phone calls when we all know nobody ever buys anything from them? B/c somebody must be.
Same w/ lawsuits. None of them should ever be successful, yet some of them must be b/c people keep filing them. It'ls like buying lottery tickets. Very expensive lottery tickets, but if you win, it pays for itself.
@impurekind I really don't see how this has ANY merit. The device in question is for an iPhone. This has its own hardware. Does the device in question have removable functionality? Or any of the other features that the Joycons have? Not to mention when you consider the Switch's evolution from the Wii U/gamepad and even the Wiimotes.
Even if the Wikipad's "flexible bridge connecting controllers" aspect isn't enough to throw out the lawsuit, the below patent of Nintendo's was originally published May 1, 2014, a good year before the Wikipad's. Sheet 10 of 11 shows an "opposing sides" configuration for removable controllers. Even if this is not enough to protect Nintendo from legal action, I think it's pretty clear evidence that Nintendo imagined and patented the basic concepts of the Switch's controllers on their own, as they were already experimenting with the idea pre-Wikipad.
Nintendo isn't robbing anyone.
pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=09420404&IDKey=C0368204E269%0D%0A&HomeUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsearch-bool.html%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526co1%3DAND%2526d%3DPTXT%2526s1%3Dnintendo.AANM.%2526OS%3DAANM%2Fnintendo%2526RS%3DAANM%2Fnintendo
Let the Gamevice legacy not end with a whimper but a glorious bang of bankruptcy
Their so called invention, the "Wikipad 7" was released a few months (or nearly a year) AFTER the Razer Edge gaming tablet. the Edge also has removable contollers and different attachements. The Edge was shown 2012 under the name "Project Fiona".
I also know about a few gaming tablet even before the Edge, that didn't have detachable controlls.
The switch is neither a tablet not a smartphone, which is what the wikipad is designed and patented to connect to. While they make look similar, if take into account that the wiki pad is only controllers while the switch is a console with detachable controllers they really are not alike at all.
Unjust cash grab attempt. However I like their products for iOS and wish them success in their own, you know, DIFFERENT market area.
Didn't Nintendo come up with the buttons theyre using
@rjejr Very, very few patent lawsuits are filed with the intent of winning. Ever. It's pretty hard to win a patent suit through appeals. It has to be a pretty blatant copy, which almost never happens (and when you do, you do it through your Chinese subsidiary that's impervious to all international standards.) Nobody will sue over a Nitneod Switcher with Joyful Controllers. Nobody can.
Most patent suits are filed to box a company into a corner, where as a matter of pure number crunching it's more economical to hand over $500M than to battle in court for 3 years. They set it up so you have no choice: You either give them money to hush them, or they drag you through the expensive process, knowing they'll lose, but you'll lose more money than just giving them money for free. It's a shakedown scheme. A con job. And there's an entire industry for it. The win in 3 years is irrelevant. They know they'll lose. It's about getting money for free TODAY. And that's why you take the cold call for patent suits. It's not about having a winnable case. It's about having a case expensive enough to litigate you get a payoff in months.
What these companies don't recognize is that Nintendo is Japanese. That game, homie-san plays does not.
Nintendo fights for victory, as most Japanese companies would save face before bottom line. So Nintendo loses money from these shakedowns, but rarely every actually loses the case. For them, that's the winning outcome. For other companies, the payoff saves money and is the better win. Shame everyone here is focused squarely on money maximization, screw integrity.
@NEStalgia But that is the way the game is played, and if you are going to file a patent then you might as well try to defend it, win or lose. Otherwise why bother filing a patent int he first place?
@rjejr You mean other than the fact these guys have only bothered doing this because the Switch was selling gangbusters while their own product is failing hard by comparison? The Gamevice / Wikipad isn't even especially well known for that matter.
This is what patent trolling looks like. Someone makes something the resembles the patent and the patent holder sues them to try to get a slice of the pie. It's an unfortunately common thing.
Oh boy, by requesting a ban of all imports into the US...are they implying every Switch owner was a potential game vice consumer??? 😆. In other words, a lost sale. “Gee, I was gonna buy a game vice but this other, similiar device, called the Nintendo Switch (Have you heard of it??) caught my eye so I bought it instead.”
Good reminder to never buy anything from Gamevice.
@serendipitiful
The model A was built in 1927, well after the first car ever was ever built, and did not have any patents that prevented anyone from building a similar car. No car manufacturer has ever held a patent that prevented anyone else from building another car. Cars are made up of a thousand different parts and you can’t patent the entire car.
The first modem car built was in 1885 by Karl Benz, well before the model A or Model T.
@impurekind the thing is what is Nintendo even remotely doing that would infringe? The first time they tried they couldn't even win and there was even a law student who did a whole report on why they couldn't win.
@rjejr To legitimately secure your R&D results. Not to attack other companies for a shakedown. In a civilized society. This is not a civilized society. We're barely beyond spiked clubs and giblets. We just disguise it with neckties instead.
@PaulDuran ya pretty much but the patents for them expired.
Now if their device could replace the Joy-Con with a snap that be different but notice it is for a Smart Phone not a NS. Also as other mention it has to be attached to the phone not separate so that goes against there already and the fact they drop the suit the first time tells they don't have much of a Legal Standing to start with. This is something a Patent TROLL does when they have nothing substantial to go against Nintendo Switch. Just like others said if what they said was true how come they don't go after Auto markets that uses controls on the steering wheels as well those do the same concept right. They must think - Oh were a US company we can get one over a Foreign company. Guess what your wanting a Free Market but only when it works for you is not going to fly nowdays.
@edgedino
thats ridiculous
Just means that the switch is doing well when the trolls come out of the wood work!
In reviewing the patents they seem to have made a critical error basing the claim on a more recent product. I also agree that the tenets of infringement are not there. Nintendo will fight this because it is the right thing to do to protect the brand.
Honestly this is just trivial. The joycons are not just detachable controllers or accessories. As the labo demonstrated, they're very much innovative by their own rights.
Gamevice is wasting their money and time.
@kopaka Oh sod that attitude of yours. Go troll 4chan.
It will be hilarious after Gamevice has spent all their money on lawyers and battling a losing war in the courtroom with absolutely nothing in the way of consumer sales to back them up.
@QwertyQwerty Yup, these kind of companies always seem to be coming and going. They produce some half-assed product that nobody wants, and then they decide to sink all of their remaining resources into court cases where they are essentially patent trolls. Of course after they lose they are left with nothing and need to file for bankruptcy, which is why nobody really remembers them.
Might as well bring up the Aikun Morphus X300 which came out before Gamevice. If anything it looks like Gamevice is guilty of copying this product:
@AlexOlney if I did that, I’d get arrested
These guys just need to stop complain and go to Sony so togheter they can do another portable failure.
Get Rekt.
@rjejr Says he can't type Nintendo. Subsequently proceeds to type the word "Nintendo" flawlessly...
And yes, I know of these wacky law suits. We also have them over here, although not to that extent, and also not for the same ridiculous amounts of money. But we also have cheaters and liars over here. In that respect, the whole world is pretty much the same, sadly.
And of course I understood that you knew that they're not going to win, but it all seems so futile for whatever reasons are left, because none of them seem valid or good. And if this truly is simply an attempt to get their product in the public eye again, then it would seem to me that it is decidedly negative marketing, because they're trying to discredit a big and renowned company that makes devices that are well-loved in general, so the only thing they'll create, for the most part, is animosity towards their own product and their own company, so there isn't anything positive to gain here for them.
Unless I'm missing something, which could be possible, seeing as I just got home from the boat ride and I'm slightly inebriated...
@NEStalgia Wtf? So now @rjejr has finally gotten typing Nintendo down and you've taken over "Nitneod" from him? This is doing my head in...
@SomeWriter13 Yeah, that pretty much says it all. Seems pretty cut and dried to me, but they'll probably stretch it out a bit, in hopes of scraping some money out from the bottom of Nintendo's treasure chest. It's probably going to be wood splinters for them, though...
@AlexOlney I read that in your voice
I've got to always wonder why Nintendo takes the high road with people like this. Nothing would be better than to have Nintendo counter sue for all court costs, lawyer fees, and time lost on actual real business. Only the truly stupid or conniving would try it then as they'd know the cost of trolling.
Gamevice! Look at the design parents!!! You add phones to third party smartphones and tablets well the Switch is just a single product
Innovation starts here. Nintendo has only been stealing ideas from themselves.
Yeah Nintendo would pay millions in settlement before allowing shipments to stop at all.
i hope nintendo bankrupts gamevice for good.
C#85 @NEStalgia: "Most patent suits are filed to box a company into a corner, where as a matter of pure number crunching it's more economical to hand over $500M than to battle in court for 3 years. They set it up so you have no choice: You either give them money to hush them, or they drag you through the expensive process, knowing they'll lose, but you'll lose more money than just giving them money for free. It's a shakedown scheme. A con job. And there's an entire industry for it. The win in 3 years is irrelevant. They know they'll lose. It's about getting money for free TODAY. And that's why you take the cold call for patent suits. It's not about having a winnable case. It's about having a case expensive enough to litigate you get a payoff in months."
Away with patents. They stunt innovation.
If I were Nintendo, I’d turn around and counter sue these Gamevice idiots for ripping off the Wii U gamepad. Then again, the Switch is not like the Wikipad, so this whole lawsuit is useless. All Gamevice is doing is shooting themselves in the foot with this fruitless lawauit. Bunch of morons.
I always maintain that Sega hold the patent for a controller with removable screen that allows tv or handheld play. Ah the Dreamcast. And even further back, Genesis Plug and Play. You could attach a second controller, and plug in to TV. And that's so old the patent has long expired.
Sega should sue these guys.
@rjejr, big deal, everybody makes similar laptops, tablets and smart phones with their name and additional upgrades to these devices. Gamevice and the Nintendo switch do not have similar devices. Anyway, nintendo always innovate with their systems, and haters always want a piece of their pie.
@ekwcll " big deal, everybody makes similar laptops, tablets and smart phones "
Yes they do, and they sue each other all the time, it's the way the system works. Did you know Apple has a patent on a rectangle with rounded corners. ROUNDED FREAKIN' CORNERS.
https://www.cultofmac.com/200224/surprise-apple-actually-does-have-a-patent-on-rectangles-with-rounded-corners/
Did you know that Apple - a US company - won $1B (billion with a B) from Samsung - a Korean company - for that patent on rounded corners?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-samsung-trial/apple-triumphs-over-samsung-awarded-over-1-billion-damages-idUSBRE87N13V20120824
Most people would think $1,000,000,000.00 IS a big deal.
Haters always want a piece of the pie and fanboi's always defend the company they feel they owe and allegiance to, even if that company is in the wrong. That's what makes them fanbois after all.
Not saying you're a fanboi, I'm really having a hard time understanding the meaning of your post, I'm not even sure who's side you are on, Gamevice's or Ntinedo's, but I try to always reply to people who reply to me first.
@NEStalgia Civilization has always been like this. People just used to hide the ugly stuff. Now people strut their ugly stuff everywhere and are proud of how ugly they are. People don't have skeletons in their closets anymore, they hang them like decorations from the roofs of their McMansions. Gamevice going after Nintneod in court rather than burning down their building is as nice as people act these days. If you hire a hitman or an arsonist you could get busted for a serious crime, hire a lawyer to take them for all they are worth, celebrate your victory in public.
@MegaVel91 "Someone makes something the resembles the patent and the patent holder sues them to try to get a slice of the pie. It's an unfortunately common thing."
What you described isn't "patent trolling", that's the way the system is supposed to work. You invent something, you patent it, you make it, you sell it. Someone else comes along and makes a product that resembles it, you sue them to protect your patent. That's absolutely the way it's supposed to work.
You can't call the way it's supposed to work "patent trolling" just b/c you like Nintedo but don't like other companies.
Patnet trolling is when one company, who doesn't make or invent anything, stays in business by going around buying up patents from failed companies then suing other companies that make similar products. That isn't in any way shape or form what is happening her.e Wikipad invented stuff, patented it, make it, sells it still, and they are defending their patent from what they believe is an encroachment on it by a similar patent from Ntinedo.
Whether they have a case or not is up to a judge and lawyers to decide, but calling them patent trolls is off base.
@rjejr Cynicism and disdain for the whole of mankind in flagrant open display. You are my new favorite person in the world.
Honestly, I'd rather we open it up to hitmen. Legalize murder. It's really the same thing except the "well bred" can hide their attacks behind financial institutions. "Just playing the game." Open season on society means everyone has equal chance with "accidentally" pushing them off a bridge. Also means everyone has to be on their best behavior to not warrant needing to have such an "unfortunate loss of balance" And we're all about equality these days, right?
Of course n the other direction there's China's new "credit score for citizen value". Just by writing on these forums and playing games we'd probably be marked un-persons by now if we were there. It's like choosing between living in the USSR or Ceausescu's Romania. The USSR is the better option.........I guess?
@rjejr "You can't call the way it's supposed to work "patent trolling" just b/c you like Nintedo but don't like other companies."
I don't know, I think suing over a groundless patent case knowingly (unless they're idiots) is still trolling. At minimum it's tort.
@NEStalgia "groundless patent case "
Well here's the thing, how do you know if it's groundless or not? The only way to actually know if it's groundless or not is to actually do it. You know what Yoda says don't you?
Here's want I think is groundless, suing McDonalds b/c you are so stupid you poured the coffee you just purchased all over yourself. Apple suing Samsung over rounded corners. How did that ever make it to court? And $1B you have got to be kidding me. And all those burglares suing home owners for failed burglaries?
If I invented something and patented it, I'd be defending my patent against anybody who I felt violated that patent. Only a judge gets to decide. Or whoever the gatekeepers are to get the case to court.
Seeing as how these guys already failed once 9 months ago and are back at it again, I have a feeling they think they have a case. Don't know if they do or not, but if I knew for sure, like they invented ice cream and they were suing the makers of sun screen b/c you use both in the summer and they kind of sound the same, then I'd be all for calling them patents trolls.
I know what a patent troll is and I know there are plenty of them out there, it's been a well used term now for decades, just not in this case.
@rjejr Yoda died in a swamp junkyard after making idiotic obviously wrong decisions that led to his exile and the fall of his civilization. Screw Yoda and his fortune cookie wisdom.
New rule: Never trust anybody that learned to speak English from 80's SNK cabinets and lives in a swamp.
It's groundless in that it's a clearly unrelated device with mostly visual similarities, most of which come from themselves copying (legally) the expired patents of the company they're suing. If you invent something and then 30 years from now I copy your now expired patents and make a product with them then sue you because your newest product looks visually similar.....that's groundless.
The Wikipad (they should sell that name to P&G...that would be worth more money ) was not a game console, an the Joycons don't work with phones. Unrelated products. Patenting the idea of detachable controllers alone wouldn't fly (heck the Famicom would count as earliest prior use there, invalidating any patent on that by gamevice) and any specific implementation patents aren't actually aligned as the implementations are quite different. Tech patents have become absurd in the arguments because we're down to obvious uses of existing tech. Everyone just combines the core components in different ways. Switch and Wikipad/gamevice are not combined in the same way. Vita is more similar, despite the controller dock.
@NEStalgia "Legalize murder. It's really the same thing"
There's a reason the Purge movies are big now, I don't believe in coincidences. It's what we all want. Well what we want is people to behave decently in the world but that's never going to happen, not even in China. So the other option is the world turning into Lord of the Flies. It's never going to get better. For some maybe, but we'll always have our distracting battles - transgender bathrooms - while tens of millions of people can't afford toilet paper and probably a billion people around the world don't have access to a bathroom. But let's concentrate all of our energy on the transgender issue while politicians give $1.6 million to their mistresses to have an abortion. Just where does one get $1.6 million to discreetly give to a mistress that nobody - not your wife, not your company, not the IRS - notices? Drug dealers get busted for anything over $10k, but $1.6 for a mistress to get an abortion and nobody notices?
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/rnc-fundraiser-resigns-after-news-that-he-impregnated-a-playboy-model
Bonus abortion:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/pro-life-congressman-adopts-sensible-abortion-for-mistresses-only-stance
I do have cynicism for all of mankind, but I'd like to think there's still hope for womankind. Well at least until they get in power and realize power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. But I'd like to see them get their chance. After we kill the pig.
@NEStalgia "mostly visual similarities"
Like the Samsung smartphone rounded corners were similar to the iPhone rounded corners? Did anybody really think Apple was going to win that case? But they did. Oh sure it took years and appeals Apple got less money than they asked for, but I'm pretty sure at the time most people thought it was a stupid case that never should have gone anywhere. But it did. And Apple won.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/12/09/samsung_gets_some_good_news_in_apple_court_win/
Here's an article calling Apple a patent troll I think, it's in the tile anyway.
http://www.datacenterjournal.com/apple-vs-samsung-patent-trolls-and-other-troubles/
I suppose if we can call Apple a "patent troll" then it is fair game to call any company a "patent troll" that sues' to defend it's patents, would be hard to argue otherwise. So you got me there.
But if Nintneod has nothing to fear or hide, let them go to court and sort it out.
And Apple being a patent troll and a company that all companies should aspire to be like, well then that means all companies should aspire to be patent trolls, and you can't fault anyone for trying their hand in court.
Jealous much???
@rjejr I haven't heard of the Purge movies. You have me curious!
I'm still quite convinced that we're headed for WWIII....and it will make WWII look like a dress rehearsal. Too much population, too much reason for factions to hate each other. War, famine, plague, and disaster are natural systems of nature to control excess. We're way past due for a massive excise of human population. One or the other, or all 4 since we've waited so long is all but guaranteed. If we don't have a mass extinction event via war, I'm sure Ma Nature will cook up a way to do the job anyway. Population, ultimately, is at root of so many of the other problems. Just as it always has been (the Crusades were a result of the Arab invasions which were a result of population pressure. The Black Death originally spread as a bioweapon by the Mongols during a fort siege. Funny how the more things change the more they stay the same.)
Distractions, distractions. We're guilty too. Absorbing in video games to blank out the ever worsening backdrop. I figure it's better than drugs and booze. Though it's not really cheaper. Guess we could buy porn stars. Got a million? Though the focus on that is also merely distraction. China's cutting a swath through the world, buying off countries all around, ringing in India, they own US debt, they own us. They're buying the world with the money our idiot leaders gave them for 60 years. Xi made his speech announcing his plot forward after declaring himself leader for life. Who owns your local movie theater? And the studios that make movies? Jong-Un wants peace. Sure he does. It has nothing to do with his Chinese masters finding a way to dispense with any and all interference in their backyard. Chinese Taipei(TM) will remain untouched. Honest. And we ALL know the Senkaku Islands have always belonged to China, so I'm sure nothing will happen there. Nor their new manmade islands. And we're told to focus on a porn star's abortion as the big news item, just above trans bathrooms. Distractions, distractions. Swap "China" with "USSR" and we'd have been at Defcon 1 for the past 5 years. But now we just ignore it. Because they own us, and represent industry's interests. If people actually saw past the distractions that big population reduction would start in the next 20 minutes.
As for Apple, well, they're Apple. The world's richest company. I don't think they "won" so much as bought victory. OTOH had the suit been in Seoul instead of L.A., I can guarantee you Samsung would be taking Apples lunch money. At THAT level, it's all about the purse. Nintendo and GameVice are not that level. If Google or Microsoft sues them they're in trouble. But Microsoft is showcasing the Switch at their XBox One X stage event.....they're good.
At least in Apple's suit silly as it was they were suing over a design patent on a product that was nearly identical, functioned the same, and served the same purpose in the same way with the same interface. It was still stupid and should not have won. But a chocolate bar phone suing another chocolate bar phone actually makes more sense than phone controller addon suing console ecosystem. And Apple was the first to market with the chocolate slate design. Nintendo was the first to market with the controller layout. Again, there's nothing about gamevice's products of which part wasn't already done by Nintendo in some combination. Dual detachables? Famicom. Button layout? SNES. Analog sticks? N64. Wireless? Wavebird. Controller on a screen? Game Boy. Nothing about Switch is anything but evolution on things Nintendo already made long before GameVice existed. That's what makes it sketchy. It is GameVice building a product with mostly recycled Nintendo patents and then suing Nintendo for their next iteration. For that matter Nyko and such could sue gamevice for having a phone mounted controller.
@NEStalgia
You're a Malthusian eh?
Wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo lost. Apple won a suit over rounded icons so anything is possible.
@rjejr Yeah, because Nintendo product totally resembles the Gamevice...
@ThanosReXXX
sorry for the CAPS (lol...did it again)...
force of habit for having to communicate with family halfway around the world by email/message.
...talking with them directly by phone (which is my pref) is kinda hard when u don't know what time they are at work, or if they're sleeping...
...the CAPS are mostly for them...so they can get the HIGHLIGHTS (lol...did it again)...of what is important--so they can skim over any written dialogue quickly...
sorry about that...I'll stop now...
@moavi No worries, I wasn't really offended or anything, just wondering. And I do find it annoying in general to see people writing in all caps. I mostly use italic, bold or underlined to emphasize text.
In most comment sections, caps are seen as a synonym for shouting, and as such they're not really the thing to use. If you don't know how to manipulate text in other ways, then I could give you the codes/commands to use for that, if you like.
As for calling people: I can relate, being a sales & marketing man who's main job is to contact companies to sell stuff and make appointments, but calling people on a game forum? I'm already having visions of how that would turn out...
Why not hurt Gamevice? People have the power. Start up a boycott on twitter or something. Like a hashtag or something. Social media is powerful. Or is there any where a petition can be started against Gamevice? I am not good with either so asking lol
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