Last week, we reported on news that UK head teachers have issued a written warning to parents about 18-rated video games - like Call of Duty and Gears of War - being played by schoolchildren.
The letter - issued by Nantwich Education Partnership - predictably caused quite a storm, with critics pointing out that the video game industry already has age ratings in place and does a good job of making sure titles with mature content aren't placed in the hands of minors.
However, there's always two sides to any story, and Eurogamer has been speaking to a games-playing UK teacher - who wishes to remain anonymous - that feels the reaction from the gaming community towards this letter hasn't been entirely fair.
The teacher offers up some rather alarming tales regarding violent or scary games being played by youngsters:
I've personally not seen children acting more violently because of games. The impact is more them being frightened of things they've seen or things they've played. Five Nights at Freddy's was very popular in our school for a while. Five Nights at Freddy's doesn't sound particularly frightening. It's on the App Store. It's one that could fly under the radar of a lot of parents.
I had two children in particular who'd been nodding off at their desks. When you speak to them separately they all say, 'oh I couldn't sleep because I was scared of this game' they'd either been playing, or their friends had coerced them into playing. I think that's a problem.
I taught a child two years ago who had been a high achiever for a long time. Then, when he got to year five he suddenly became incredibly sullen, very angry, frustrated and exhausted. We brought in a therapist to speak to him. Eventually it came out that he was watching lots of Let's Plays of Resident Evil and other horror games. He had access to some he would play as well on his tablet. He told me he would be playing games at night and watching Let's Plays, and he said lots of them scared him and he couldn't sleep because of it. Of course, his parents should be intervening because of that. And his parents did once we raised it. But it still took him a long time to be able to sleep properly. He was 10.
He also picked up on the fact that many parents erroneously see an age rating as a mark of difficulty, rather than a reflection of the content:
One parent told me how proud she was that her eight-year-old son could play Call of Duty because it was an 18. I said, 'oh, that's an 18-rated game.' And she said, 'oh yeah, but he's very good. He can play it really well.' I pointed out, 'oh, well it's 18 more for the content rather than the difficulty.' She sort of um-ed and ah-ed and said, 'oh, he's very mature for his age. I think he can deal with it.'
There is a perception among a lot of parents that the age rating reflects difficulty. It's a terminology issue. Games in a broader sense have always been a bit hamstrung by the term 'games'. The nature of the name 'games' suggests a playful thing, not necessarily something with a narrative, or something that could potentially be upsetting or violent. That's a problem with parents as well.
The letter, he argues, wasn't an attack on the games industry at all, but rather an effort to make parents wake up to their responsibilities:
I don't think teachers at large or the writers of the letter have a problem with the game industry. It is parents. And I think lots of the people in the comments saw it as an attack on the game industry. Or they saw it as an attack on gaming culture, which it wasn't. It was a letter to parents who may be naive about how brilliant games can be, but also how there needs to be a considered approach to children playing games. This letter was an effort at influencing parents and making parents more aware of their responsibilities.
He also maintains that this kind of intervention is part of a teacher's remit, and is done out of concern for the child's well-being, rather than being about ruining their fun:
Every now and then in the news there will be a case of a neglected child who's died. It will be, well why didn't the teachers do anything? Who didn't see this? Yes, of course there will be mistakes made, and some blame will lie with teachers for not noticing these things. But teachers are being held more and more accountable. And if there's a child under our care who something awful happens to, and it's revealed we knew they were playing games they shouldn't be playing, it could well come back on us.
Essentially, the teacher is advising caution, and shared understanding. Parents should be educated about the content of the games their offspring are playing - so many simply believe that video games are harmless fun, perhaps due to the fact that when they were kids, Mario and Sonic were the biggest draw in town and violent games - like Mortal Kombat - could easily be separated from reality. That arguably isn't the case any more, with games becoming ever more realistic, and being played online with actual people.
What do you think about these comments? Should teachers be sticking their noses into what kids do when they're out of school? Do you think more should be done to make parents responsible for what their children play? Or do you feel that the modern era - with phones and tablets allowing easy access to very shady parts of the internet - makes it almost impossible for parents to adequately police what their children encounter online, be they violent games, videos of violent games or other objectionable content? Let us know your perspective by posting a comment.
[source eurogamer.net]
Comments (78)
Yup, thats also my point of view.
Age ratings on games are a good first indicator, but not the solution.
There are kids that are more mature at the age of 16 then some people at the age of 20.
And sinc ethe rating agency cant predict that, these ratings are overly generalised.
The people who should have a pretty good understanding about these kids are their parents. And they should be the ones who ultimately decide what is or isnt good for their kids.
I think the major key factor here is "why" kids like a certain thing.
Do they like it because they actually like it, or is it due to peer pressure ?
What exactly do they like about a certain game, is it only interesting because its violent, or is your kid interested in it, even if it wouldnt be violent ?
Parents shouldnt shy away from engaging in dialog with their kids. Talk and learn about their hobbies.
The basis for good parental influence doesnt lie in a dictatorship, it comes from understanding.
My parents always showed interest in what i did when it came to gaming. The end result ? They both play videogames themselfes.
Good article once again and I totally agree with what the teachers said but awareness is just one very important step.
I can see this going the same way as the last thread, but at least this alternative view is being aired a bit more clearly. As a teacher, parent and gamer myself I made similar points to what is said above on the last article. But by the time I had read the article and posted my comments, the thread had long since moved into territory that had little to do with what the story was about.
The key thing here is that this really is not an attack on gamers. Admittedly the initial letter could have been worded in a different way to make it more about raising the issue, but thinking that there is no issue would be the big mistake here.
I think the idea of sending emails or news letters saying something like "five nights at Freddy's is a horror game that can cause you child to not sleep at night." would be a good thing.
The issue IS of the industry, though, and it's getting more and more evident as time goes by. Is a moral and social issue, one that many parents are not ready/dont wan't to face, and that's another issue, the one teachers could help with, without generalizing. I mean, look at the adverts for ps4/x1, and tell me if that is something that should appeal to a gaming family.
Kids shouldn't have smartphones/ tablets anyway. They have the knowledge to use them, but lack the wisdom to use them properly (sadly, so do many adults, which is where most shady parts of the internet come into existence). Wait until they're a bit older, and educate them properly.
Most teachers are MORONS! You know what the easiest degree to get is? It's teaching, you know what major has the lowest act/sat scores? It is teaching. When I lived in New Mexico, graduates with teaching degrees couldn't pass a 7th grade level test to become teachers.
This crap is just the whole Tipper Gore thing all over again. I remember when they held a parents meeting at my school telling parents not to let us listen to Ozzy Osbourne. I listened and I didn't kill myself or bite any bats heads off.
I am the only person responsible for how I raise my kids. I am a gamer and my 12 yr old plays COD, GTA, and Far Cry and it doesn't concern me one bit. My kid is a straight A student and has never been in school and he knows it is just a game and make believe.
These are the same morons that call me a bad parent because my son has his own shotgun, rifle, handgun and bow. His #1 goal in life right now is going to the Air Force Academy and becoming a drone pilot.
@DarthNocturnal My kids don't have smartphones but they do have tablets.
No reason for kids not to have tablets, they are GREAT tools for education.
No, those teachers deserve a sneer because they did it by making threats against families.
That is the exact opposite of education.
And the award for Best Unintentional Comedy Post on a Website goes to....
@freaksloan !! Congrats!
@freaksloan
I totally hear you on that. I remember seeing Ozzy Osborne in concert several years back, and he mooned the crowd and gave us the ol' brown eye. I thought to myself, "no, I don't think I'm going to copy this behavior." Because I can think for myself.
Also, are you still a pilot if you're flying a drone? Pilots typically sit in their vehicles, would that not just be an operator? Some semantics. I got to hang out with the drone people briefly in the military.
@DarthNocturnal waiting till they're older is not gonna help getting educated. Yet they need to be educated, for sure, just as the parents should be - who happened to have to wait till they're older and, well, aren't exactly educated.
Age rating content is a good step, enforcing policy based on morale isn't. However, taking games as a warning sign when behaviour is working against people's development, no matter what age, is a good thing.
I'm not sure what to think of this systematic approach. I would want teachers to not have a checklist and be able to use common sense instead of a system. A system means imperfection, which doesn't help the kids.
Basically, getting kids in school starved and crawling with lice isn't a sign of neglect, but when they start playing games everybody is freaking out.
I like the backlash this got. You don't threaten people with aid systems knowing those aid systems are a pain in the ass for them. It's all supposed to be for the kids right? Then stop threatening about games and start thinking about kids.
I definitly agree, there is still a huge ignorance around gaming and those parents that know nothing about videogames need to be aware of the risks, especially since it's surely not rare for kids or teenagers to get involved in gaming (so obvious it was pointless for me to point it out XD).
The age rating sadly it's still too weak for do the job, in Italy it's not even legally recognized. Sure, it's right there on the box, but stores have no obbligation to stop minors from buying mature games and with no law forcing them, they have no intention to deny a sale.
Maybe that letter sent few days ago was a bit harsh, an excessive "slap", but there is surely a need to raise the awareness of those parents that still consider a CoD or a Resident Evil on the same level of Monopoly ^_^;
@DarthNocturnal
I'm sure someone just like you said that about video games and you at the same age. Or computers or the internet.
Your comment, unfortunately, comes off as the view of a luddite. Allow me to explain: Times are changing. I look at my kid, his school blew a bunch of money giving iPads to all the kids. I think it's utterly pointless and a waste of money. And then I realize that I'm saying that from the perspective of my childhood where we simply didn't have those tools.
But my school had some computers (this was way back in the day), and we were using them as learning tools. And that was something my parents may have thought was a waste of money because they didn't have them as the typewriter was good enough for their era.
This is changing times and changing technology, and it's on us, the parents, to be responsible with these things. Being dismissive or saying "kids don't need them" misses the point. They're here. They exist. They permeate our culture now. Education, understanding, and parental involvement are the most important things to keep in mind.
It's like the sex talk. The parts of this country that attempt to just teach "don't do it, you don't need to do it" have the highest rates of teen pregnancies and STDs, because they try to ignore "the problem" instead of addressing it (it's the Bible Belt in the South--go figure, right?). Instead, we should be recognizing that it's a part of life, and there is education to be done.
As a game loving adult who knows non gamer parents (one of them being a teacher), can see his point. Parents/most adults don't really follow the current treads of the youth and that what put them out of touch with the evolving times, be it games, cartoons, or technology as a whole. I got so many RL first hand stories with uneducated guardians about this stuff, there is a chance I be called into court as a witness (you get the idea).
I don't see this attacking parents as a whole, just the ones who would do something like unknowingly give their 5 year old son a certain Anime dvd rated AO (the H word ones) without knowing what type of contents it contain just because it's a cartoon (judged only the cover and didn't read).
I'm not quite convinced that there are a significant contingency of parents who believe the age rating on the box is a "difficulty" rating. That's just silly. You can't just blame games as a go-to for every little issue people have.
I hope they also warned parents about the Kama Sutra, R rated movies, ultraviolent TV shows, watching the nightly news, reading tabloid newspapers... You see where I'm going with this, right?
@freaksloan Incidentally, drone operators (they're not pilots) are taught to disassociate themselves from what is happening on the other side of the drone. (Killing people, innocent people more often than not- at least 50% of victims are innocent, there's a lot of hasty decisions and bad intel in the drone department right now.) To the drone operator, there is not much difference philosophically between pulling the trigger on some random person living on the other side of the world, and pulling the trigger on some random baddies in an FPS game. One does it because it's "fun" or because they were told to do it. There's no critical thought involved in the process; the drone operator essentially becomes a drone themselves.
There is a common assertion that all of this online and tech communication, with little or no face to face contact, and plenty of senseless violent content being indulged upon, may in fact erode one's ability to feel true empathy for those on the other side... I didn't use to buy that, but the whole ongoing international drone assassinations fiasco has made me wonder if there is actually some truth to the notion of a culture with little or no face-to-face contact opening up further potential for a breeding ground of disassociative and psychotic behaviors.
@Einherjar I definitely agree. Age Ratings are a pointer, not the decider. The decision itself should be made by parents. And by extension, parents should be able to judge what their child can play and what they can't. The big problems I see are two factors:
I'm admittedly an American, and America has different problems involving this issue than Britain does, but since I am a teacher, I figured I'd share my thoughts on the issue.
I think the letter had good intentions and does make some good points, but I don't think the wording and delivery was ideal. The biggest issue, as the letter and its writers mentioned, is that parents aren't keeping an eye on their children and what they do and play. Most kids, at least from my experience, aren't going to lose much if any sleep because of a scary game, but there are those who will and do if parents aren't aware enough. Games themselves aren't the problem, though; if kids slept in class because they couldn't sleep at night after their parents let them watch IT or Salem's Lot, most people wouldn't blame the film industry but instead the parents. There's a lot of knee-jerk responses and reactions to this type of stuff - just look at how everyone reacts in America when someone blames video games for gun violence - but if we can get out of that habit, there's a legitimate dialogue that can happen about how to keep kids from playing games they shouldn't and what responsibilities parents of gamers have.
If I may touch just briefly on the issue of kids having tablets and smart devices, I'm going to have to disagree respectfully with those who said that kids shouldn't have them. Certainly, like any tool, they have bad uses that only hinder a kid's attention and education, but if properly utilized, they can be the best tool in a teacher's arsenal. I don't know what the rest of the world or even the rest of America is doing with it, but I know that in North Carolina, our Department of Public Instruction is pushing us hardcore to use smart devices in the classroom, and for the schools that have the resources to enable such a program (I used to teach in one that had they money for it), it works extremely well and opens up possibilities that teachers don't have when working with kids who don't have access to smart devices.
So long story short, there IS, I think, an important conversation to be had here, but we need to get away from one side blaming video games for everything and one side insisting that video games play zero role in the problems observed. We need to be able to talk about the problems, not just point fingers.
@ElkinFencer10 I'm not so keen on the use of smart devices in the classroom, but not because I only had Alphasmarts and graphing calculators.
Neither the government nor the telecommunications and tech corporations have publicly released their research on the effects of radiation emitted by smart devices. However, there have already been a few cases where radiation from over a decade of constant cell phone/smart device use was confirmed to catalyze developing malignant tumors found after enough close to body use. Of course, childrens' bodies, and especially their brain membranes, are less developed than adults', so they would absorb more.
I suspect in the next 40-50 years we will see a sharp rise in brain tumors and infertility catalyzed by an entire life next to cell phone/smart device radiation. (Assuming it's not toned way down/ phased out with another technology.) We don't see this happening today, but suffice to say, there's a big physical health difference between being a student in school with occasional PC use of titles like Oregon Trail, Number Munchers, Math Blaster, and Dr. Brain, and occasional internet use with isolated text document programs; compared to being a student in school with constant use of the myriad smart device titles, and constant internet use with integrated text document programs.
Having good educational tools is important, but I wouldn't think using just any tools because they're profitable to use, and sound good to use on (electronic) paper, would be the wisest choice for a future generation's health. It doesn't matter if the next generation is more intelligent, if they're too disease ridden to make use of that intelligence. Hopefully, the ongoing research in protein folding will yield discoveries in reversing mental and physical degeneration, to combat issues ranging from Alzheimer's to unbridled high tech radiation exposure.
@freaksloan While your kid is mentally able to handle it, not all kids are the same or develop/learn the same way (ironically, something the education system should learn themselves). As i said elsewhere, I prefer to let children remain children as long as possible because once that innocence is lost, it's gone. One of the hardest things I've watched was my daughter at three realizing there was something wrong with the world because Sid the Science Kid pointed out that things die and decay.
I applaud teaching a child how to properly use a gun early. Better to know what it can do than to find out in a horrible accidental way. But I am not sure I will be joining you in allowing my kids to play games that are made and marketed to adults. I don't see the benefit of it.
@DarthNocturnal I would agree with some reservations. I don't think occasional use would be harmful, it could be helpful if managed properly. However, I do think constant smart device use as a child would be harmful, in more ways than one. And I don't say that because I didn't have them, nor am I a luddite. I just think we haven't properly evaluated the circumstances surrounding how they're made, how they function, and how they would be most useful. There seems to be a growing gap in the knowledge of how exactly our tools are made and how they really function, as technology evolves...
Parents need to be more savvy these days. They really need to be more educated on what technology and what media is available for their kids consumption. It's not some government bureaucrats job to do it.
I would recommend "What Video Games Have to Teach Us About Learning and Literacy" by James Paul Gee, and "Grand Theft Childhood" by Lawrence Kutner and Cheryl Olsen, for further reading on this subject.
The findings go against the popular media and government outbursts, and even against common educational industry assertions.
I'd played all of the most adult games by about the age of 10. Well, the adult games that existed at the time anyway. I doubt it does any harm.
@Quorthon @erv
Fair enough. I guess I just get annoyed at how often these devices get handed off WITHOUT the supervision and education. There's a lot of talk, but seemingly little action. It's not because "I didn't have it, so why should they?"
@Quorthon New Mexico has the highest teen pregnancy rate and isn't in the "Bible Belt". Your attempt to correlate teen pregnancy to religion is laughable, please stop being such a bigot.
@MasterBlaster I agree 100% with the award nomination.
"I taught a child two years ago who had been a high achiever for a long time. Then, when he got to year five he suddenly became incredibly sullen, very angry, frustrated and exhausted. We brought in a therapist to speak to him. Eventually it came out that he was watching lots of Let's Plays of Resident Evil and other horror games. He had access to some he would play as well on his tablet. He told me he would be playing games at night and watching Let's Plays, and he said lots of them scared him and he couldn't sleep because of it. Of course, his parents should be intervening because of that. And his parents did once we raised it. But it still took him a long time to be able to sleep properly. He was 10."
My parents monitored my access to the internet, and made sure games were okay for me, you know the parenting part of being a parent...
This is all I have to say:
https://youtu.be/_EGlrPl0N_o
@sonicmeerkat
Lol right!? Sheesh...!
I'm sneering! SNEER SNEER SNEER!
@Kaze_Memaryu Exactly, the "games as a mute button" thing is, in my opinion, one of the biggest problems when it comes to modern parenthood.
Its called entertainment device for a reason. Use it to entertain you / someone else, not hypnotise and silence them.
Its really really awfull.
What my mom used to do was to always bridge the gap between games and "real life". When i got really into Harvest Moon as a kid, my mom watched me play, we chatted about it and she took me to visit a real farm.
The same with Mario Kart back on teh SNES. My dad saw it, played a couple of rounds with me and we ended up going to a real karting course and drove around
There are so many opportunities for parents to get something really meaningfull out of a childs gaming hobby if they would only listen to them more often.
So, what happens when your kid enjoys GTA or CoD ? No, you dont take them to a warzone or steal their bike
But have a talk with them WHY they like that stuff. Most of the time, its just peer pressure. Pretty much every parent in my family (my father has 7 siblings, so its rather huge) is either a gaming enthusiast themselfes or they at least know what their kids are dealing with.
And we have no children who even remotely care about adult games. They know they exist, they know that all their friends are highly into them, they are just not interested in the slightest.
When asked why, its simply because they cant relate to it.
@Tazcat2011
Criticizing an idea is not bigotry. Religion is just an idea, one that you choose to adopt. Ideas are not protected. People are protected. People should not be discriminated against. You know, like homosexuals or people of a different race. Those things are not a choice.
Choose your words more wisely.
Highest teen pregnancy rates: Bible Belt (and New Mexico!), the South in general:
http://www.hhs.gov/ash/oah/adolescent-health-topics/reproductive-health/teen-pregnancy/trends.html
You'll notice an odd correlation that the most progressive, secular, and dare I say liberal states have the lowest.
@Quorthon My words stand.
DC has a rate of 90 per 100k. NY & IL are in the top 10 for STD's.
@DarthNocturnal
It's all part of the continuing circle of improving education with technology. As someone who worked in game sales, most stores have policies to police these things. Target, for instance requires a driver's license to buy M-rated games.
It's totally on the parents, as there is only so much the ESRB, game industry, or store clerk can do. I enjoyed talking to people (who actually cared) about gaming and their families. No matter how strict the environment, there will always be those that slip through the cracks, but we can't get all panicky about it like these idiot teachers have been. You don't threaten people about it. That accomplishes nothing and only serves to put up barriers to progress. It's not the government's job to do this, and while a teacher's concern matters, threats do not, and it is ultimately the responsibility of the parents.
I know what my kid is playing. I buy many of them. If I'm playing some of the "questionable" games with him, I can judge his behavior and interest and any effects. At the same time, I grew up with far worse and have censored (I hate that word) quite a bit more concerning my son than my parents did for me. He's 11 now--I saw my first R-rated movie in a theater without adults at that age (I'm dating myself, but it was Total Recall). I saw my first R-Rated movie in a theater with my parents much earlier--Die Hard 2. For years the image of John McClane killing a guy, in the eye, with an icicle was indelibly burned into my brain--but it'd didn't warp me. Stuck with me? Yes. Hurt me? No.
I also make sure we have a healthy variety in what we play together--because I want him to expand his tastes and experiences, but also not get stuck on something, and I'm also of the "perhaps outdated" notion that childhood is, in a way, a sacred (for lack of a better word) time in our lives when innocence should be celebrated and enjoyed. He has plenty of time for adult games and adult content. The occasional Teen game here and there mixed with Rayman and Ratchet & Clank are good experiences.
@Tazcat2011
Your words stand? Okay... I suppose you can choose which facts you want to accept, but you cannot choose which are actually facts.
Yep, New York (no surprise) and Illinois... and the rest are Bible Belt states.
http://blackdoctor.org/443907/top-10-states-with-stds/2/
Thems the facts. There is an education problem there, as I noted--and it can be traced to thinking "teaching abstinence" instead of "responsibility with your boy/girl parts" is better.
@Quorthon Still you may need to look elsewhere. The church has it's problems but nationally the true average for regular church attendance in this country is closer to 17-20% (including the south). The last study done in where I live in TN showed only 1 in 5 attend church at all. The "Bible Belt" as it were broke a long time ago.
Gallop Polls are still so high because people tell them what they want to believe they do, not what they actually are doing. The numbers taken from actual attendance records paints the picture I am giving you. Even then, just because you sit in a pew every Sunday doesn't mean you truly believe and follow Christ.
@Quorthon Facts such as the two demographics with the highest rate vote overwhelmingly Democrat? You are trying to validate your own prejudices.
@Tazcat2011
I have no prejudices (that I know of) and am trying to validate nothing. I gave you facts. Deal with it. Outside of a few stragglers, the states with the biggest problems in birth rates and STD's are overwhelmingly part of this country's "Bible Belt."
Welcome to reality.
@Quorthon You cited data that doesn't support your position and have moved the goal posts. Deal with it.
@Darknyht
I wasn't blaming a "church" per se. Unless you're looking at one giant one, like the Catholic Church (which as caused more problems with AIDS than it fixed with it's "no condoms" policy), the US in particular is rampant with different churches. Christianity alone has a couple thousand sects, denominations, and branches, all with slightly different practices, interpretations, and political motivations.
These aren't solid data streams, more in the vein of interesting correlations that may well be related. You are right that church attendance does not equate to religosity one way or the other. More or less, there is an air of religiously motivated politicians, supported by religiously motivated voters that lead to a bigger, more complex problem.
In the end, my point was that education is key to solving many issues, and in places where childbirth and STDs are generally the highest, there is a key element guiding the education--and may well be a religious motivation of the politicians and people there. And easy way to look at this is in the Bible Belt of the US, where education practices are leading interesting statistics.
It's entirely possible that the South/Bible Belt has a lot of other issues leading this, but a big thing shared among those states is them being highly religious. As for Illinois, I don't know what may be setting that one apart, and New York could be any number of issues, particularly if it is still a major immigration city.
@Tazcat2011
You actually have to look at the data to say that. You did not look at the data, which did support what I said, by and large. The so-called "Bible Belt" is, for the most part, leading this country in STDs and teen pregnancies. There is an education problem there.
I didn't have to move goal posts. You never proved me wrong on anything.
You've basically moved to arguing by plugging your ears and covering your eyes, and posting back with "LA LA LA WHATEVER LA LA LA I JUST GOOGLED A FALLACY BUT DIDN'T READ WHAT IT MEANT."
It's silly to cling to an argument that goes "nuh-uh, Illinois and New York aren't in the Bible Belt, so it doesn't mean anything!" while ignoring the 8 Bible Belt states in that study: North Carolina, Texas, Arkansas, South Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, Louisiana.
By your own argument, you are wrong 4 times over, since only two pieces of cherry-picked data were good enough for you.
Granted, it could be a coincidence that several of the states with the highest STD's just happen to be bordering each other and in an area regularly defined as the "Bible Belt," but that's a hell of a coincidence. There's clearly a problem there, and it's not a stretch to say that people who have a history of not wanting to teach sex ed for religious reasons may well be a part of it.
That's why these studies are done. So that we, as a society, can address wide-range issues like this and look for the roots of the problems.
In the same vein, numerous studies have shown that video games do not actually harm kids, and that as game violence has increased, real-world violence has actually gone down. When someone snaps and kills, it's silly to look at the games first, instead of the person, and their potential mental health or life. We have history and human nature to know that the "threats" the teachers want to do not only don't fix things, they may well make things worse. Beyond that, we have history showing that prohibition does not magically cure any problem or make "the hated evil" just "go away." Often, merely making a prohibition makes things worse. If you don't want your kids to play violent games, the way you can ensure they play more than ever is to try to prohibit them from doing it--then they'll not only do it more for the thrill, but behind our (parents) backs as well, creating a dishonest child.
@Quorthon So now it's on to foot stamping and childish outbursts? Ok.
@Quorthon There has been a problem since the founding of the church of charismatic people twisting the gospel for personal and political gain, and rarely does it turn out good for anyone. To speak of the issues specifically in the area I work, one of the biggest sources is poverty. Poverty cripples people in ways you cannot imagine and effects their children in ways I don't know if I could fully explain (because I am very much still an outsider looking in). I've seen a lot of good kids get crushed by it, and most have no clue how hard it is to escape the cycle of it once you've been sucked in.
Personally, I at the age of 9, asked my parents if I could buy Grand Theft Auto by recomendation of friends. We talked it over, I got my copy of San Andres, and it had little to no negative impact on me in life. That concidered, I would say that as a parent I would never let my nine year old child buy a rated M game under similar circumstances. However, I do believe the law should stay out of it. Sure, games like these (FNAF, youtube let's plays, ect) are more and more accessible to childeren, but that does not mean the government should be threatening child services. Parents make a lot of bad decisions that will effect their child, and this is only one of them. It's simply a problem of parenting that can't be policed so easily.
That's all mostly totally fine and reasonable...but don't threaten to send in the social services if you see a teen playing with an 18 game or whatever because that's not the same thing as what was said above at all. What was said above I can mostly agree with as long as it's all handled in the right way.
Ultimately however, I think the worry of such disturbing effects from mature video games or whatever is a little unwarranted and misguided. I mean I watched Aliens when I was about 9 and I swear I was screaming my eyes out in fear that night when my parents tried to put me to bed, because I thought the Aliens were going to come out from under my bed and get me. Now, as a full grown adult, I look back on Aliens as one of the greatest sci-fi movies of all time and I don't think watching it as a kid did me any long term harm whatsoever. In fact, I think it means more to me and I have such high respect for the film precisely because it created such a powerful and emotional response as a young child.
@Darknyht I totally agree. Poverty, or even just feeling like you are poor and trapped by the shackles of poverty (which I'm feeling right now as an adult and was also brought up in as a child too), is more detrimental to people and society on the whole that pretty much any other thing in life.
When all you see around you is poverty, even if it's not the kind of abject poverty you see on the news but is just a kind of lower class of living (abuse of drugs and alcohol, violence at home or in you neighbourhood, NEDs hanging around and maybe they are even your pals, always just getting by with little money to do anything beyond the drudge of the daily routine...), it has a profound impact on your world views and how you think, feel and act.
It's extremely hard to escape that and not become part of it; as reflected in your attitude, world view, beliefs and behaviour etc. I should know, because I've been there and done that, but luckily I was one of the lucky few who by some miracle mostly managed to escape the worst of it and grow up to be a relatively well adjusted adult for the most part. I'm still totally skint though, not for the want of trying to make something better of my life (I think a few people in here already know I run my own "company" making video games but I am currently not making any money at all unfortunately), and that isn't helping the positive mental attitude much I can tell you
Also; I doubt very much watching Resident Evil playthroughs was the cause of that kid's issues, the one detailed in the article above, but instead was more than likely a symptom of the fact there were other issues to begin with; maybe to do with his family life or at school (possibly bullying or feeling like the odd one out for example) or whatever.
Ultimately; video games are not a problem but certain behaviours attributed to them might certainly been a symptom of something else that has maybe only become apparent through the way a particular person engages with them. Like the people who went on those various shootings in American high schools and by some miracle of coincidence investigators later found they were spending 10 hours a day playing lots of violent games like Doom, Mortal Kombat and Grand Theft Auto etc. The unhealthy addiction to and obsession with these games was clearly a symptom and not the root cause imo.
That's where PROPER eduction actually comes in...
@freaksloan
Discrediting concerned teachers and putting down their profession. Which is the most important job in today's world.
Letting your child play games that most grown mature adults would shy away from.
Oh and giving you child a bunch of weapons.
Yes I am a "Moron" because you just described the worst parenting scenario of all time.
Poverty and neglect affect children much more profoundly than video games or R-rated movies. Who let the church lady put this one here?
@Shiner1776 Yes, but the latter is much simpler and easier to correct.
Huh, I hadn't considered the possibility of PEGI age rating system being confused with the age recommendations on board and card games, but it is kind of confusing in hindsight. Perhaps Europe needs to switch over to the less confusing ESRB system?
@Kirk Well, one R rated movie isn't going affect a kid too much. The real danger comes from repeated exposure to inappropriate content at a young age. In fact, you kind of reinforced the point yourself by comparing how differently the same content affected you both as a child and as an adult.
@PlywoodStick The issue is most parents know about R rated movies, but not M rated games. I once heard a story where, a kid's parents wouldn't let him watch a PG-13 movie, but he played COD and several other M rated games, because his parents didn't realize games could be worse than a PG movie. There are real problems and parents to need to have their ignorance on the matter taken away.
@BulbasaurusRex Well if you expose anyone to anything for long periods of time it will have an effect on them, that's how human beings work, but that does not make exposure to those things automatically bad in and of itself i.e. a kid playing a video game intended for older kids is not a problem in and of itself, which is the point at discussion here.
Any potential serious problem, not just teenagers being rebellious teenagers, isn't caused by what game(s) they are playing but more by what is going on in their lives in general and in a broader context. Are they locked in their room playing these games for 8 hours a day every day? Do they appear to have friends, who come around and visit them every now and again? Do they go out and socialise? Do they generally come across as normal energetic loud teenagers? Are they particularly quite and alone a lot? How is their family life? Do they get in trouble at school a lot? Do they show extreme mood swings? Are they growing up in a poor or rough neighbourhood? What kind of crowd do they hang around with? Etc etc etc...
Be a responsible loving parent first and foremost and I think any reasonable person would come to the conclusion that allowing your kid to play a couple of adult rated video games every now and then, or watch the occasional scary movie, will have no long term negative consequences whatsoever. I think any reasonable and intelligent person would come to a similar conclusion.
The point is that playing a few adult/violent games and watching a few adult movies as a kid didn't turn me into to some antisocial killing machine or whatever. ALL of my issues, whatever they might be, came from sources far outside of such things. Parents, teachers, politicians, etc, need to take responsibility for those things, whatever "those things" might be, and stop allowing themselves to be misdirected by almost entirely inconsequential stuff.
When i bought a PS4 for my nephews last Christmas, i made sure their parents, who are absolutely not gamers, understand that there is an age rating on games. I told them they must follow this rule, as not being aware of modern days games. Just because they are not knowledgeable, there is an age rating to help them, and so they can at least rely on something.
For those who just don't believe the stories, when i was a kid, it took me some time to forget about Predator movie. And this was a movie, less immersive than games.
And don't tell me than even as adults, you sometimes do not think of JAWS when going for swimming.
My kids will play Nintendo. And if their friends tell them COD is so good, i will invite all those to have evening Splatoon party.
@Vader_MIB What has remembering a movie got to do with how it affects your behaviour in terms of how you normally act and interact in society and around others etc?
That's what people are worried about; that playing adult video games will turn these otherwise perfectly angelic kids into antisocial, psychopathic, demented serial killers or whatever.
I don't see a causal link here between your experience with Predator and any potentially negative behavioural patterns you might exhibit.
PS. I'm afraid of deep water too but more because I can't see what's below me than I'm afraid of JAWS. In fact, I'm usually more scared a severed head or bloated body will float by and rub against my legs or something than I am of getting attacked by a shark. Although I no doubt saw that in a movie too...In fact...there was a floating severed head in JAWS!!! That was actually the scariest part of the movie for me; when the head pops out from the boat. STILL...I don't see that being the same thing people are worried about in regards to playing games. Shooting Covenant scum for the length of the campaign, or blowing away hordes of demons from hell in DOOM, isn't going to make it more likely that someone will go out and shoot their neighbour or whatever. I simply do not buy that in the slightest. Being angry at the world for causing you pain and hardship, feeling lonely and and completely hopeless, being poor and hungry, being a junkie and alcoholic desperate for their next high, hanging with the wrong crowd of violent thugs in gangs, feeling unloved and believing the world wouldn't even blink if you just died...those things might lead to such an outcome. Playing adult games every now and then doesn't cause such things.
I find it interesting how this teacher automatically assumes the issue people had was a perceived "attack" on gaming or gaming culture, not the threat of getting local authorities and CPS. Its one thing to act out of concern for students, its another to threaten parents with legal action.
All their plan though is holding a threat over peoples' heads, apparently under the assumption that playing mature-rated games somehow indicates or causes much bigger, potentially fatal problems.
That isn't solving anything, if anything this sounds like sugar-coating an attempt at covering their own butts. In my experience that's all schools usually do, ban things or threaten with detention or suspension to make the issue go away. The only way to actually address it is to meet with parents and discuss the issue, which I doubt they want to put the time and effort into doing.
@Zombie_Barioth I agree, especially with your point in the first paragraph.
Changing this around from being an issue we have with threatening to take kids from away their parents and turning it into another example of "gamers overreacting and being overly defensive of their hobby" type thing, which is very reminiscent of and similar to what people did around the whole "gamergate" thing actually, is disingenuous and making light of or getting away from the real objection that most people had in my opinion.
@Nictendo64
I loved how he said he lets son play violent games and shoot guns and it's not a problem, then brags how his 12 year old wants to join the army and become a drone "pilot" so he can kill people in real life using a joystick.
@Kirk While there can be other issues involved, plenty of studies have proven that exposing children to inappropriate content desensitizes them and otherwise negatively affects the brain. Turning into a rampaging murderer is only the absolute worst case scenario of how this can affect them in their later adult lives.
@Vader_MIB
I don't think Splatoon has much in the way of single-console multiplayer. You'll need several more Wii U consoles.
@Shiner1776
The problem here is that they were trying to claim that letting kids play certain video games is neglect.
@Darknyht
This is one of the reasons I strongly dislike religion. It's bad enough when taken literally, but all of these religions are all too easily used as tools for control and manipulation. We see it all the time and it's reprehensible.
Send your badly-needed social security check to the evangelist on TV, and you, too, can buy your way into heaven. Because Joel Osteen needs an expansion on one the bathrooms of his cavernous mansion.
This is why I prefer simple skepticism and rationality. I'm a much harder sell for a charlatan peddling an afterlife for my money, or a snake-oil salesman, or a some phony-baloney psychic leeching off my misery--and I'm better off that way. But that's about where I'll halt this as people are for some reason touchy about religion. Particularly the ones originally designed for peasants living impoverished lives in the Middle East a couple thousand years ago.
I'm a human being, not a sinner. I don't need to be sold a phony cure for something I'm not. We get one life. We should make the most of it.
@BulbasaurusRex I don't buy what these studies are selling at all because they usually only study the immediate after effects of playing some action/violent/scary game. "Kid plays violent game for 30 mins and gets all aggressive and worked up..." That's hardly scientific since most people get worked up doing anything even remotely related to being in a heightened state of awareness and excitement etc. I mean one time I was playing a game of dominoes while attached to an ecg machine for a medical study and my heart rate jumped up to something like 120bpm...playing dominoes! It was also obvious to see I was pretty agitated and tense too. Someone could therefore conclude that playing dominoes makes you agitated, tense and increases you heart rate to pretty extreme levels. The reality is that a few minutes later my heart rate and demeanour had returned to normal. I say the same is true of basically all normal cases of playing games, even adult games. It's only in extreme situations where you see extreme results imo and by their very definition those kinds of situations aren't typical. They almost certainly aren't causing long term effects either; unless this is being done in a totally extreme obsessive way, which simply isn't the case for 99.99% of people. Watching a Bruce Lee movie probably results in lots of young teenage kids going off and performing awesome martial arts moves on their siblings for the next few days, I know it did for me, but I don't see many twenty-thirty something ninja masters running around the streets smashing in people's heads with nunchucks...
...Of course; if they're ninjas I probably wouldn't notice them hiding in the shadows...
@BulbasaurusRex
Studies have also shown that other arguably healthier activities such as sports stimulate the same areas of the brain as playing violent video games.
They both trigger increases in adrenaline, testosterone, the 'happy hormones' serotonin and dopamine as well as cause an increase in aggression, agitation, heart-rate and so on. That's on top of other studies proving they reduce stress and aggression. The PEGI also says they cause no long-term or lasting increase in aggression or violence on players.
http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/26#question_9
@Kirk @Zombie_Barioth I'm talking about permanent affects on the brain, not temporary hormone increases, and yes there is still plenty of proof out there for that as well. Perhaps PEGI is right about long-term aggression, but that's far from the only affect at stake here.
@Quorthon Yet, people's default nature is selfish just the same, and people use anything, including anti-religion, for those same goals. Stalin did horrible things in the name progress while preaching that religion was for peasants and the ignorant.
One of the biggest problems with Christianity is it is an extremely simple thing while being beautifully complicated. The basic principle is that God, knowing we could not save ourselves, sent his Son to do what we could not. That nothing we could do would justify ourselves before a holy, righteous God, but because He and the Father loved us, Christ paid the price. By accepting Christ and His grace you are adopted into the kingdom.
The complicated part is that even though you are saved by grace and a new creature, your sinful nature still there while here on earth. So people wrongly thing salvation is earned, when they already have it. And they thing they do good to be saved when it is really you do good because God was so good to you on the cross. You love because God loved so much on the cross.
Again, it is too our shame that we let people abuse the gospel while being silent and fail so often to do as Christ commanded. I will agree that there is a lot of worldliness in Christianity (especially American Christianity). Christians should be known by their love, not by what they are against. We need to do better collectively.
@BulbasaurusRex There would be pretty much zero permanent effect on the brain from playing some random violent/adult video game for some random week in your life. I'm pretty certain the only way playing violent/adult video games could even come close to having some kind of permanent effect is if someone is sitting there on their own in a darkened room playing a lot of violent/adult video games, for long periods at at time and does for a long long time overall. Like playing six hours a day every day for a few weeks at a time and every couple of weeks for multiple years, or something like that. Again, if this is the case for some teenager, where they spend all day every day locked in their room playing violent/adult video games (and clearly this isn't normal healthy teenager behaviour), then the cause of their problems is almost certainly not playing violent/adult video games but what kind of life they have outside of video games that leads them to play these kinds of games this obsessively in the first place. As per usual, I go back to saying "Deal with the cause, not the symptom."
PS. There is no proof out there whatsoever that normal/typical playing of video games every now and then for entertainment purposes has any permanent negative effect on the brain at all, regardless of the age rating on the box. Playing games in any other way that's outside of the norm, in a way that is obviously excessive and unhealthy, is almost certainly indicative of something else going on and again I say you have to look for/at the cause, not the symptom.
Doing anything obsessively (in an unhealthy detrimental way), be it playing video games or even taking drugs (Yes; even the so called "addictive" substances), is almost always a symptom of some bigger problem(s) in a person's life. Genuinely healthy, happy, fulfilled and loved people very rarely show up at junkie anonymous meetings or video game addiction groups and if they are at those meetings their story won't usually begin with "Well, I was a genuinely healthy, happy, fulfilled and loved person, which led me to taking lots of Class A drugs/playing video games obsessively...).
@BulbasaurusRex
There aren't any studies that actually prove there are any permanent effects either.
There's one that was done on French university students for 20min. for 3 days, but while they conclude its impossible to know if the effects increase for those who play for months or years, and its impractical and unethical to test. They also said they expect the effect would accumulate for more than 3 days, and while it may eventually level off, it won't as long as they continue to play regularly.
http://psychcentral.com/news/2012/12/11/negative-effects-of-violent-video-games-may-build-over-time/48918.html
The only other study I've found has them playing for 10 hours for a week then nit for another but it doesn't actually specify wether that's a weekly total or daily one.
What it seems to me is the brain stays in that mental state for an extended period, but with regular play it doesn't get a chance to wear off.
@Kirk Lots of people (myself included) play video games over a course of dozens if not hundreds of hours each year without being obsessed with them.
@Zombie_Barioth Why are you only searching for studies that specifically test out violent video games? Try broadening the search for similar content such as pornography and R-rated movies.
@Darknyte Only mainstream Protestants believe in being saved by grace alone. Other branches of Christianity like Catholics and Mormons teach that both faith and works are needed in addition to Christ's Atonement.
@BulbasaurusRex Which is exactly my point. It takes an extreme kind of gaming obsession to become anything anywhere near "dangerous" imo. Just playing a lot of games isn't going to do anyone any harm as far as I'm concerned but playing games for 6 hours a day every single day at the same time as never leaving the house or hanging around with any friends, being the kind of person who sits in a darkened room all the time and never wants to talk to anyone, etc etc etc can point to issues, which is of course outside of typical normal behaviour and points to potentially bigger issues than just the playing of the games. I'm also sure if you plugged a normal healthy person into violent video games and just made them play them continuously for thousands of hours on end, barraging their brains with sick twisted imagery non-stop like a scene out of A Clockwork Orange or something, then it would have some kind of impact, but clearly that's not happening in the vast vast vast majority of cases in reality (if any at all). So, ultimately, I don't see any harm in general with kids playing some adult games every now and then. As per usual, my stance is that video games are not the problem. Something else is at the route of these issues that we are seeing. Imo it's just our society and the broken system we are all trapped in, a society obsessed with and built around money, profit and debt, that's the route cause of virtually all the problems we see today.
@BulbasaurusRex
Because we're talking about games, not movies, and pornography definitely isn't "similar" otherwise they woldn't be on store shelves in the 1st place. Unlike the other two in actually is illegal for minors. R-rated movies tend to be more explicit and realistic so its not exactly an apples to apples comparison there either. Would you say COD and Halo are equel to The Blob or The Walking Dead?
I can't imagine the effects would be much different though, perhaps worse, or pehaps lesser due to not being interactive.
I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. Give this man a medal.
@Zombie_Barioth Yes, they are indeed very similar. They all provide an immersive experience of inappropriate content. M-rated video games are just as bad (if not worse due to the interactivity, but that's questionable) as other inappropriate multimedia such as R-rated movie and porn, and yes the realism depicted in modern-day games is now almost at the level of films and porn. Yes, adult videos are even worse, but people get addicted just from lesser porn like still pictures or simple animations as well, which are also making their way into games more often. Anyway, any negative effects found by the other media would implicitly apply to video games as well.
@Kirk As I said, it's perfectly normal to spend lot of times playing video games, even among people who are otherwise socially well-adjusted (not to mention the social aspect of multiplayer games). I don't know why anyone would play for 6 hours a day for a few weeks then stop for two weeks, but lots of people play for 1 to 3 hours a day nearly every day. Add that up and it becomes dozens of hours per year. If even only half of that time is spent on M-rated games, then there are going to be permanent effects
@BulbasaurusRex
If you boil it down like that, then, they're very similar, but thats also a vey simplified look at it. Violence and sexual content are not the same thing, and effects of one form of media doesn't necessarily apply to another. If they did, there'd hardly be a point in studying the effects of them. As far as sexual content goes, games can barely touch softer material without causing problems, they can't show anything without earning an AO rating. They're nowhere near the level of actual porn, the ones that are are actual hentia games.
You keep claiming there to be permanent effects, meanwhile the studies are either inconclusive or its theorized they'll wear off eventually. The only way they're permanent is in the same was as the effects of medication. The effects only last as long as you keep taking it. Just like medication even one dose can stay in your system a while.
@BulbasaurusRex Everything you experience has some level of effect on you if you are exposed to it repeatedly over a long period of time, even if it's just the effect of making you used to seeing it, but that isn't the kind of worry these teachers etc are talking about. They're talking about it actually physically manifesting itself in some detrimental and potentially harmful or dangerous way, such that they want to actually take drastic measure to preemptively prevent it. Just playing a couple of hours of video games most days, with some of those games being M rated, is not going to have any kind of negative impact on some teenager's behaviour to such a degree that we have to worry about it or consider initiating some kind of preventative measures, in the slightest. That's what I'm getting at. This isn't like how we are basically bombarded with sexual imagery almost every second of every day from the moment we are born, be it on pretty much all of TV in one way or another, or in magazines, in pop videos, in video games, in nightclubs, in all the advertising we see, all over the internet, etc etc etc. Accumulatively, if all you are ever seeing, hearing and experiencing is "sex sex sex" then it will obviously have some kind of impact on you, how you think, feel and act, and that would be true of violence too. I mean obviously if all you ever see and experience is violence then it will surely have an impact on how you think, feel and act, but this is simply not the case from playing some M rated video games every now and then; as long as you ain't doing it in some kind of excessive way that goes beyond normal healthy behaviour.
The point is that playing some random M rated games every now and then is not a problem in the slightest for the average teenager as far as I'm concerned and, once again, if you are seeing problems with a teenager it almost certainly is not because they play M rated games sometimes. People who even imagine otherwise are imo slightly deluded, misinformed or ignorant and they are the ones that often end up spreading far more miss-information, creating unnecessary worry and panic, acting in extremes, and in the end probably lead to more issues with teenage children than playing some M rated game is ever likely to do.
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