Topic: Difficulty Curves

You know, I don't mind a challenging game, even a very challenging one...but I often get frustrated when I run into a crappy difficulty curve. A good difficulty curve should allow the difficulty to increase at about the same pace that your skill level is improving. A bad difficulty curve comes in many forms, but two of the most common are that the entire game is a cakewalk until the final stage or final boss...or that the first several stages are a cakewalk, then there is a huge leap in difficulty for the rest of the game. I'm starting this thread looking for examples both of "good" difficulty curves and "bad" ones. I'll start it off with a few bad examples that I've recently run into: Sonic Unleashed and Sonic & the Black Knight.

Sonic Unleashed was a case where I breezed through almost the entire game without much of a challenge (although I did find it enjoyable.) I probably died a total of 2-3 times up until Eggmanland and got S or A on all stages, usually on the first try. I found all the bosses to be enjoyable, but not terribly challenging. When I got to Eggmanland, the difficulty took a sudden, very large spike. Nothing unmanageable, but it took me a number of tries to make it through the first daytime stage. After finishing the stages and moving on to the last form of Dr. Eggman, difficulty took a sudden plunge again...Dr. Eggman was a cakewalk. It then spiked once more for Dark Gaia. It took me probably about 10-15+ attempts to best Dark Gaia. He wasn't terribly difficult once you figured out the patterns, etc...but when you lose 25+ lives between one level and one boss after only losing 2-3 through the entire game, there has been a disconnect somewhere along the line when it comes to the difficulty curve.

Sonic & BK I think was even worse. Once again, I had very little trouble through all the stages and bosses leading up to King Arthur (who's not even the "true" final boss I don't think)...but there is a portion of the King Arthur battle that requires such stupidly precise waggle timing that I finally quit in frustration and have no intention of going back.

In both of these cases, I probably wouldn't have been as frustrated if there had been a gradual building of the difficulty level throughout the game. The frustration comes from breezing through the entire game, only to have a huge difficulty spike for the final area/boss. Maybe I'm just spoiled by the fact that Nintendo seems to have largely mastered the art of a good difficulty curve. Most of the mainline Mario games in particular can be held up as shining examples in my opinion.

Does anyone else have thoughts or examples they'd like to share?

Rogue Leader: Rogue Squadron II for Gamecube. Game looks great and plays great, but after the initial Death Star mission it became really hard to the point where it stopped being fun; compounded by quite lengthy missions and few checkpoints. The unlockables even for the initial mission were also bloody impossible to achieve; the fact that one of them would have made the game a bit easier -- the one to keep the targeting computer on without holding the button down all the time -- made it even more galling.

I'm thinking Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn. That game just had some weird difficulty problems. When the game would randomly make you the Dawn Brigade in the middle of Ike's chapter, those battle were extremely hard because the DB was severely underleveled. And the game had another huge spike right at the end. It took me forever to beat the multi-part final level, because I refuse to let anyone die.

The Legendary Starfy.
It was easy until the final boss,then you have to button mash like crazy at the end. That part was very hard and the oddest difficulty curve I have ever seen.

Yeah, I really liked all the Rogue Squadron games, but if I remember right I think I used the cheat codes to unlock all the equipment upgrades.

I've waffled back and forth on trying Fire Emblem many times...this type of thing is one of the main reasons that I still haven't given it a shot.

Oh, don't tell me that I'm just getting started with Starfy...that's disappointing to hear. Hope it doesn't spoil the game.

@Kknight: Don't base your entire decision on one game. Every other Fire Emblem I've played has been awesome. This one just had some problems because it was a follow-up. They were trying to work in too many characters and storylines, and because of that, it had problems with difficulty.

@ Kknight
...what Phoenix said.

Radiant Dawn is an oddity. It's the most difficult Fire Emblem by far that they've released in the West... and it's on the Wii, the one system accused of being too kiddy. I think that was a mistake, myself. The Gamecube FE had the difficulty just perfect for me. Challenging, but not too tough that you won't eventually get it.

Radiant Dawn had some awesome cut scenes though, which is why this is the only series I can think of that I prefer in 3D. I was shocked when the first scene with the Greil Mercenaries popped up. Nintendo actually did an awesome job with voice acting! That's certainly an anomaly. They need to keep that up.

@PhoenixSage & @Adam - Thanks, I will look into the GC Fire Emblem then!

@Kknight - Warning, Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (as the GC version is known) is quite difficult to get these days as it had a limited release run. Check ebay, but also look in your local game shops that have 2nd hand sections, they'll often be slightly cheaper than ebay in this case. And yeah Radiant Dawn is difficult as hell, I think they assume that everyone who buys it has played PoR before because it's a closely connected sequel. I'm sure people would have had PoR not been released in such limited quantities on what was at the time a quite unpopular console (speaking from PAL experience here).

And as far as difficulty goes it has to be the legendary SNK Boss Syndrome. Arcade games made by SNK like King of Fighters had ridiculously overpowered final bosses (Rugal), even Street Fighter wasn't immune, M.Bison was so powerful compared to the other fighters that it was insanely frustrating to play the game. Still, it was designed to take peoples arcade change.

People complain that Path of Radiance is expensive, but aside from the cut scenes in Radiant Dawn, the Wii version offers very little that PoR doesn't, so the value is about equal, in my eyes. If you find it for $5 or $10 less than a new game, I'd say go for it because it's just as good, if not better, than a lot of new games, and it's not that old. Don't feel like you're being ripped off because you aren't.

It's generally the fan favorite, too, at least in the West. I'm not sure if one of the older games tends to be more highly regarded in Japan, but I'll hopefully find out soon through some fan translations. Anyway, I can't recommend it enough. It was possibly the most enjoyable video strategy game I've played.

Good deal. How does it compare to something like FF Tactics A2? I think that is the only strategy game I've played recently (I have this funny feeling that I've played another recently, but can't for the life of me remember what it was.) Anyway, does it play similar to something like that? I greatly enjoyed A2...put over 100 hours into it I think. I also greatly enjoy chess if that means anything.

I don't know any strategy-RPG that is at all like chess, so no, that doesn't help me particularly. I'd be greatly interested if there were a game made that drew comparisons with chess, though.

I haven't actually played FFTA2. I played the first one, but the theme and forced tutorials put me off. I was not at all interested in throwing snowballs at the other school kids, no matter what they called my mother. I have nothing against family-friendly themes -- I can't wait to read the Water Warfare review -- but only when it doesn't involve tons of text, then it feels a bit too much for me. I'm sure it's great later on (I mean, it's Final Fantasy Tactics, it has to be!), but I didn't have the patience, unfortunately.

I haven't played a lot of tactics games because I'm generally not good at them. The only one other than Path of Radiance that I've ever finished was Tactics Ogre for GBA, which might be my favorite of the genre... the only GBA game I really miss. I've also played Final Fantasy Tactics and the first two Shining Force games, but they were all a bit too tough to finish (still fun!).

So I can only accurately compare it to other Fire Emblem games, which I guess doesn't help you, but it's the best of the series that I've played. If you're really iffy about spending on it, you can probably find the GBA games for $10-ish. I'm told the first one is noticeably better but that both are worth playing.

Or maybe just find videos of someone playing it on Youtube. That's what I usually do to see if I want to get a game.

I would suggest choosing the lower difficulty level in Dawn to start. Yes characters die, but to me that's part of the fun/challenge. I didn't find the game overly difficult other than a couple of missions; the final you really do need to ensure you have balance, though you only get to move some of the characters between the teams yourself. I did end up with one weaker one and so many of my priests and archers got killed on the way that this produced its own challenges. I never felt it was really unbalanced, though.

@Adam - Thanks again, I will definitely be checking it out. I'll go take a look on YouTube as well. I just mentioned chess from the strategy game standpoint rather than implying any direct comparison...I just meant that I enjoy strategy and tactics type thinking.

@Sean Aaron - Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

I thought it was balanced up until that section, at least on Easy. Normal is just brutal, and I can't imagine what Hard is like. I played on Normal my first time, and when I got to the last chapter for the Dawn Brigade, I just went all out, letting anyone die if need-be. Afterall, it said "Final Chapter," right?

Sigh... I didn't know I'd have to play them again later. I got stuck on that level where you are pushing the boulders down on the Apostle's army, and all I had were Sothe, the Maiden of Dawn (forgot her name), and Tauroneo. Needless to say, I gave up shortly after.

But Easy is pretty much what I would actually consider to be the "normal" difficulty.

@ Kknight
Ah, well, if you are generally pretty good at strategy games, go for Radiant Dawn. You might like it better, actually. I prefer Path of Radiance because it's generally easier, though still challenging enough to be interesting. Plus, you have Ike throughout the whole game, and I like Ike.

@Kknight, re: The Legendary Starfy: it doesn't spoil the game, and I don't know why people are complaining about it so hard. It's unexpected, sure, but it's only the final battle (and i'm assuming in the final timed battle if you want to unlock a special level after the game is over, but i started playing Boxlife and haven't gotten around to doing that yet, lol) where you have to press the Y button repeatedly like that. all you have to do is have your DS on a table or flat on your thigh or something and do your mashing with your index finger, and it's not like the entire battle is like that either -- it's just the very end of it, where there's a power struggle between Starfy and the end boss... think of an anime where two forces are shooting energy beams at one another, and one finally overpowers the other, and that's what that little part is. no big deal.

Ouch, that does sound pretty much impossible! Volug needs to survive to that point as well I'd say; I also managed to keep Edward and Nolan in the frame, but Nolan bit the dust in the engagement with the Mercs that followed.

I did play on Easy; next time will be Normal which I expect will be quite a bit more challenging since "Easy" is definitely more like "Normal" in any other game!

Since this has turned into the Fire Emblem thread, does anyone have some good strategy RPG recommendations, preferably games that aren't too hard?

So far I've played and completed only two such games, Tactics Ogre (GBA) and Path of Radiance. Along with Final Fantasy Tactics, these make up my three favorite games in the genre.

I have the first two Shining Force games on VC. I thought the first one was dull, but the second one ruled. Too bad I got stuck on it later on.

I have a backwards compatible PS3 and a Wii, and while I don't have any handhelds, I plan to get a DSi or PSP Go by the end of the year and can always borrow one in the mean time.

I've been thinking of getting La Pucelle (PS2). I've read only good things. Disgaea looks amazing, but everyone says it's too hard. Like Kknight, I'm concerned with the difficulty curve. I'm not the best at this type of game, but I still enjoy a lot. There are so many tactics games across the PS2, PSP, and DS that it's hard to know where to start.