Topic: What do you expect from Zelda U?

It would be quite difficult, I imagine, without sacrificing one of the control schemes, given that they are so disparate. For instance, could a gamepad (as in a normal gamepad, not the Wii U one) control scheme be developed that gave exactly the same in-game experience as the Motion Plus? (That's not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious - I haven't played enough of SS to know if it's possible).

Could even use both the wm+ and wii u pad as they can be used together, sounds a bit all over the place but nintendo might be able to sort it out.

I've seen plenty of puzzles in that game that use Motion Plus...I really do think it would very difficult to pull off.

Why should the developer after designing a game based on motion controls be FORCED to have a RELAXING gameplay option? That makes zero sense. If you don't like how the game plays then don't buy it.

Curious if you have played the game? I am not that far along yet but I know that different enemies require different sword strikes to defeat. How are you going to do this with a press of the button?

Skyward Sword would have been a huge dissappointment if it wasn't for the brilliant use of motion controls tbh.

Agreed. The whole game would have felt claustrophobic and cheap with lots of backtrack padding. Total failure if not for the motion controls.

I expect the new HD Zelda to be the largest Zelda game ever.

_{Oh no! Now that I've said it, I've set myself up for disappointment later.}

Maybe. Skyward Sword was still more compelling than Twilight Princess, even without the motion controls.

Use the gamepad as a Tingle Tuner.

A cool subtitle like all Zelda games have

The same Zelda we`re all used to just prettier.

You run around as a Cheerleader in a skimpy outfit in a game that's constantly trying to do upskirts. Pointing this out makes them not qualified to analyse games? Well then I guess most of the other game reviewers are also not qualified to review games because they pretty much all made the same point. The game also ended in the 60s........ so being critical of it was what most people were doing

Because they were one of the few publications who put less than one paragraph into questioning whether Suda51 crossed the line with Lollipop Chainsaw? A game which ended up with a metacritic score of 66? From a developer who's notorious for pushing the boundaries of taste? That a reviewer who gave it 70 is somehow more credible than Good Game's 67 purely because they skimmed over the cheerleader upskirts? I think your argument is the one lacking credibility

So your criticism is that they use control schemes that you don't like in a way that works well? If it works well what's the problem? Is this an argument of someone who wants to rage on something but is annoyed by the fact that it's not that bad and is now instead raging at a game for being good?

Really? Give me a break.

You run around as a Cheerleader in a skimpy outfit in a game that's constantly trying to do upskirts. Pointing this out makes them not qualified to analyse games? Well then I guess most of the other game reviewers are also not qualified to review games because they pretty much all made the same point. The game also ended in the 60s........ so being critical of it was what most people were doing

The game was clearly being critical of sexism in games. It used hyperbole and other post-modernist devices to make fun of anyone who thought the game was all about upskirts and skimpy costumes.

Suda's failing was not realising that the typical gamer and game critic comes from the dregs of intellectual thought and analysis. Juliet should have been wearing a burka and every second line of dialogue needed to be "sexism is bad," before gamers would have got it.

And given that 90 per cent of game critics haven't got a clue how to analyse anything that remotely approaches art, the score they give games that remotely approach art is rather irrelevant.

Because they were one of the few publications who put less than one paragraph into questioning whether Suda51 crossed the line with Lollipop Chainsaw? A game which ended up with a metacritic score of 66? From a developer who's notorious for pushing the boundaries of taste? That a reviewer who gave it 70 is somehow more credible than Good Game's 67 purely because they skimmed over the cheerleader upskirts? I think your argument is the one lacking credibility

Actually I was talking about the Edge review of Zelda Skyward Sword as a good example of critics that know what they're on about defending the motion controls used in Skyward Sword.

Plus 1 to your comprehension abilities, I guess.

So your criticism is that they use control schemes that you don't like in a way that works well? If it works well what's the problem? Is this an argument of someone who wants to rage on something but is annoyed by the fact that it's not that bad and is now instead raging at a game for being good?

Really? Give me a break.

Yeah, basically. Plenty of people don't like the touch screen controls of an iPad despite there being plenty of games that play well on the iPad. I don't like the controls of Skyward Sword because I don't like motion controls.

Not sure why that's so hard to understand.

Actually, just to put this debate down before it even starts.

Dear Skywake:

Now that Lollipop Chainsaw has been available for a while, there’s been a lot written about the game. One of the more regular comments I see made about the game is that it is “sexist.” This confuses me greatly because my reading of Lollipop Chainsaw is the exact opposite – this game is one giant criticism of the sexual politics found in games.

Of course, it was marketed right down the line to appeal the adolescent boys – Warner Bros needed a return on investment after all, and cheerleaders and upskirts are an easy sell. But forget the marketing for a second, and look at the game itself – Lollipop Chainsaw, from start to finish, is not only turning the expectation that Juliet would be an airheaded piece of eye candy on the head; it’s actually laughing at the very audience it was marketed to.

Starting with the character herself; on the surface Juliet is indeed an airheaded cheerleader, but that’s merely a ruse; with surprising subtlety the game’s writer, James Gunn, reveals an intelligent, articulate and empowered character in Juliet Sterling. So for instance; early on in the game (early enough that any critic who actually played it before reviewing it should have noticed), Juliet asks Nick – the body-less head that she carries around with her – if he knows Japanese. He doesn’t. She does. There are more examples throughout the game where Juliet demonstrates a greater intelligence than Nick, and, of course, she is the one that understands how to combat the zombie threat.

Physically, Juliet is also greatly superior to the men around her. Nick is incapable of even the most basic actions without being led by Juliet. Though his head can be placed on a zombie’s body to grant him temporary mobility, he can only move at the direction (and encouragement) of Juliet. Over the course of Juliet’s quest she is also responsible for rescuing classmates from zombies – both male and female – which presents her, physically, as the most superior being.

Similarly her sisters – not brothers – are also zombie-slayers, and really the only men in this game with genuine power are the zombie bosses. All of which are challenging, but not through physical means. Those bosses are great at using the environment to rain death on Juliet, but in a one-on-one fight, Juliet has the advantage.

What does all this paint a picture of? Juliet is both intellectually advanced and physically superior. It’s also telling that she typically ignores the crude behaviours of the men around her – Nick tells her to kill a zombie because he “looked up her skirt,” and she doesn’t respond. A rescued classmate tells her that he’s going to “masturbate to her tonight,” and she ignores him. Juliet is positioned as a character above such antics, and since every single male character is driven by lust, Juliet is positioned as a character aloof of such juvenile behaviour.

Beyond the character of Juliet herself, the developer, Grasshopper Manufacture, takes every opportunity to laugh at – not with – any player that bought the game expecting an excess of T & A.

Take for instance the trophy system. There is a trophy for panning the camera down and looking up Juliet’s skirt. It’s the first trophy a player can pick up really, since it’s obtainable the moment the game starts. And yet, on a gaming forum I saw a comment from one player that it is one of the few trophies they haven’t earned. Why? Because it’s embarrassing. That’s precisely what Suda wanted to achieve – earning that trophy is not a reward. It’s mockery, since the player’s entire social network (and possibly their Facebook friends too, since the PSN can link in to Facebook to upload trophy data) will find out that they’re perverted enough to look up a digital skirt.

Much has also been said about the alternative costumes – and indeed those costumes can be very revealing indeed. But they’re also designed to be jarring. In other words, they are so over the top and so erotic that it’s impossible not to notice them. By drawing attention to them, Goichi Suda and the team at Grasshopper Manufacture are once again pointing out just how ridiculous the player’s behaviour is. It might titillate some, but behind the scenes, those developers are having a cynical laugh at their expense.

But perhaps the most telling bit of evidence here is a comparison between two very similar-themed games (on the surface). Lollipop Chainsaw features an empowered, witty female lead character. Onechanbara Bikini Zombie Slayers, a PS2 and Wii game, is the reality of what critics claim Lollipop Chainsaw is. Onechanbara is genuine sexploitation. There’s no context or characterisation – it’s literally girls in bikinis killing zombies. Anyone who can’t see the difference between the two games just isn’t looking closely enough. Context is everything.

So, none of what I’ve described above is that unusual for the kind of self-aware postmodernism that the game is explicitly designed around. Yet, because the marketing of the game was shameless, many critics seem to have missed this point: Lollipop Chainsaw is an expression of sheer frustration at the juvenile expectations of the games industry. It’s the most intelligent deconstruction I’ve seen of gender politics in the mass media – including films and literature – in years.

And for that, Juliet may just be the most important (albeit misunderstood) female video game character ever designed.

Them's the realities of Lollipop Chainsaw.

It's fairly obvious to all involved that Lollipop Chainsaw is trying to be a parody of that sort of game but that doesn't mean it's in good taste. You had a go at GG because they "didn't get it" but if you actually read the review they point out that it's an obvious parody. Their complaint was that the gameplay was bland and that it did push the parody button a little bit too far to the point where it became tasteless. They also worried what the introduction of such a character would do to Cosplaying but that was separate to the game itself.

"Actually" you were pointing to GG's review of Lollipop Chainsaw as proof that GG aren't good at reviewing games. The assertion then is that Edge did a better job with their review of that game which is why their review of Skyward Sword is more valid. I'd question the linking of ability to understand what makes good game controls with the ability to correctly draw the line between parody and bad taste... but you were the one who made a review of Lollipop Chainsaw the benchmark for quality video game journalism

I generally don't like the controls for some games on the iPad but that's mostly because of the games on the iPad that don't work well. The people who don't like controls on games for iPad that work, and they agree that they do, on the grounds that they "don't like multi-touch" are either idiots or trolls. The same is true of people who don't like the controls of Skyward Sword on the grounds that "motion controls suck".

I'm picturing Skywake as Eric Cartman for some reason

@skywake I've played far more iPad games then I let on (because I'm relatively ashamed of myself for that) and I find your statement incredibly offensive. Just because I dislike the controls for 99% of all iPad games, I am now a troll? Good day to you sir!

A PS3 "works" but I dislike those consoles. Motorcycles "work" for transportation, but I prefer not to ride one. Peanut butter and jelly "works" but I personally can't stand the taste and texture. Am I a troll?

Uh... When did Lollipop Chainsaw become part of the Zelda franchise?

I generally don't like the controls for some games on the iPad but that's mostly because of the games on the iPad that don't work well. The people who don't like controls on games for iPad that work, and they agree that they do, on the grounds that they "don't like multi-touch" are either idiots or trolls. The same is true of people who don't like the controls of Skyward Sword on the grounds that "motion controls suck".

I hate wine even though I can perfectly appreciate why other people would love a good glass of red.

Meanwhile, I like beer.

I guess the elitists that like to pretend the only alcohol worth drinking is wine would get upset by that statement, but that doesn't make me a troll. Just a dude that likes his drinking one way, but isn't so close minded to think that something he doesn't like must therefore be bad.

^YES