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Topic: Emphasizing Strategy in Pikmin 3

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DylanMcGrann

[Edited by DylanMcGrann]

DylanMcGrann

X:

DylanMcGrann

Chrono_Cross wrote:

Where am I?

Do you mean there is too much to read? I will bold the most important text. I did end up rambling on a little bit, but it is relevant.

EDIT: Ok, I've got it bolded now.

[Edited by DylanMcGrann]

DylanMcGrann

X:

PloXyZeRO

I think one thing that would really make players more cautious is if the game didn't save on every sublevel in a hole. You could easily just reset the game if too many Pikmin died, and you could start over. If they removed that feature, it would make the game much more challenging, and the player would get one chance to plan a strategy

I've actually been playing Pikmin 2 without resetting the game at all, and it's a LOT harder, but that makes it more interesting for me
It's just really annoying if too many purples or whites die because they can take a while to obtain

MrSRArter wrote:

Nintendo is rich while Detroit is bankrupt. They could use Detroit make a real Nintendo Land theme park.

X:

DylanMcGrann

PloXyZeRO wrote:

I think one thing that would really make players more cautious is if the game didn't save on every sublevel in a hole. You could easily just reset the game if too many Pikmin died, and you could start over. If they removed that feature, it would make the game much more challenging, and the player would get one chance to plan a strategy

I've actually been playing Pikmin 2 without resetting the game at all, and it's a LOT harder, but that makes it more interesting for me
It's just really annoying if too many purples or whites die because they can take a while to obtain

Personally, I would like to see a return to focusing on the over-world (or just level as it's not actually an over-world in Pikmin) instead of caves. I find the caves both aesthetically and geographically bland (there is only so much you can authentically do underground). Also, caves, along with their unlimited time, remove any incentive for the player to multi-task, which is where almost all strategy is derived in Pikmin. The goal of getting all treasures with minimal loss is approached one task at a time without any great need to think ahead. This ultimately stresses tactics over strategy which is basically what my original post was about moving away from.

DylanMcGrann

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ShadJV

Tainy wrote:

PloXyZeRO wrote:

I think one thing that would really make players more cautious is if the game didn't save on every sublevel in a hole. You could easily just reset the game if too many Pikmin died, and you could start over. If they removed that feature, it would make the game much more challenging, and the player would get one chance to plan a strategy

I've actually been playing Pikmin 2 without resetting the game at all, and it's a LOT harder, but that makes it more interesting for me
It's just really annoying if too many purples or whites die because they can take a while to obtain

Personally, I would like to see a return to focusing on the over-world (or just level as it's not actually an over-world in Pikmin) instead of caves. I find the caves both aesthetically and geographically bland (there is only so much you can authentically do underground). Also, caves, along with their unlimited time, remove any incentive for the player to multi-task, which is where almost all strategy is derived in Pikmin. The goal of getting all treasures with minimal loss is approached one task at a time without any great need to think ahead. This ultimately stresses tactics over strategy which is basically what my original post was about moving away from.

Well what about us that actually enjoyed the caves? Just because you didn't like them doesn't mean no one did, cutting them out is removing a chunk of the gameplay some people really liked.

Feel free to add me on the Nintendo Network: ShadJV
Here's my 3DS FC, always looking for Pokemon X Friend Safaris: 2191-7643-5167
Peace!

SCRAPPER392

This is exactly why I didn't like the 2nd one as much. The time limit, making you plan ahead, and taking things as they come in the first playthrough is what I liked about the first one.
Putting Olimar in a do or die situation was cool.
I'm against the caves, too. They probably figured it would be considered mining, but there wasn't anything truly special about the caves IMO(especially being randomly generated) vs. the actual world that looked better and had more environmental attributes that actually belonged there.

Qwest

DylanMcGrann

ShadJV wrote:

Well what about [those of] us that actually enjoyed the caves? Just because you didn't like them doesn't mean no one did, cutting them out is removing a chunk of the gameplay some people really liked.

Just to be clear, I never said that no one likes caves, nor did I say that caves don't have any merits of their own. This is clearly how I feel and perceive it. With that said, I will expound my opinions and observations.

I clearly enjoy the notably more thoughtful gameplay of Pikmin (the first game), and caves are, of all Pikmin 2's features, the second greatest reason for Pikmin 2's lessened strategical elements (the first reason being unlimited days to complete the game). Pikmin was a strategic game because time was limited. With unlimited time, there is virtually no strategy. It becomes less important that the player make the right choice, and more important he simply not mess up whatever choice he does make. That typically results in doing only one task at a time with all or the same group of Pikmin because splitting tasks is only valuable as a time cutting measure, and time has been rendered irrelevant to the goal of the player. Pikmin 2 was almost strictly completely about tactics and execution.

What I'm wondering is what particular things do caves accomplish that a more comprehensive over-world cannot accomplish? The reasons I hear people like caves are typically either challenge (in tactics against enemies) and/or adventure. I don't see why you need caves exclusively to serve either of those qualities. In terms of adventure, I'd ague that caves are actually inferior as a primary focus as they cannot offer as open or as varied environments.

But really, none of that is to say that caves have no place at all. As I've said, I do see that caves have a few merits of their own. For a person who does want more tactical play, I can certainly see why caves might be more fulfilling. Caves also offer unique environments and conditions that are impossible on the surface, which might be a loss if just tossed out.

Also, there is no reason that the nature of caves themselves cannot change. For example, it might be interesting if caves led to other areas and were the only mechanism by which the player unlocked new areas. There are all kinds of possibilities.

If caves do return in a big way like in Pikmin 2, I hope they at least feature puzzles in addition heavy enemy combat.

DylanMcGrann

X:

ShadJV

Tainy wrote:

ShadJV wrote:

Well what about [those of] us that actually enjoyed the caves? Just because you didn't like them doesn't mean no one did, cutting them out is removing a chunk of the gameplay some people really liked.

Just to be clear, I never said that no one likes caves, nor did I say that caves don't have any merits of their own. This is clearly how I feel and perceive it. With that said, I will expound my opinions and observations.

I clearly enjoy the notably more thoughtful gameplay of Pikmin (the first game), and caves are, of all Pikmin 2's features, the second greatest reason for Pikmin 2's lessened strategical elements (the first reason being unlimited days to complete the game). Pikmin was a strategic game because time was limited. With unlimited time, there is virtually no strategy. It becomes less important that the player make the right choice, and more important he simply not mess up whatever choice he does make. That typically results in doing only one task at a time with all or the same group of Pikmin because splitting tasks is only valuable as a time cutting measure, and time has been rendered irrelevant to the goal of the player. Pikmin 2 was almost strictly completely about tactics and execution.

What I'm wondering is what particular things do caves accomplish that a more comprehensive over-world cannot accomplish? The reasons I hear people like caves are typically either challenge (in tactics against enemies) and/or adventure. I don't see why you need caves exclusively to serve either of those qualities. In terms of adventure, I'd ague that caves are actually inferior as a primary focus as they cannot offer as open or as varied environments.

But really, none of that is to say that caves have no place at all. As I've said, I do see that caves have a few merits of their own. For a person who does want more tactical play, I can certainly see why caves might be more fulfilling. Caves also offer unique environments and conditions that are impossible on the surface, which might be a loss if just tossed out.

Also, there is no reason that the nature of caves themselves cannot change. For example, it might be interesting if caves led to other areas and were the only mechanism by which the player unlocked new areas. There are all kinds of possibilities.

If caves do return in a big way like in Pikmin 2, I hope they at least feature puzzles in addition heavy enemy combat.

I'm sorry if I seemed to attack you in the wording there; I understand your points about the caves and I didn't mean to imply that you were claiming no one likes the caves. I simply meant that Pikmin 2, which focused a lot on caves, brought in new players (as all sequels do), and these players might be turned away if the mechanic was cut entirely. And I'm sure I'm not the only older fan (who got the first game day one) that enjoyed the varied strategy the caves gave. In fact, they helped me stay interested longer, as being careless in the first one can result in rendering the game unbeatable (such as wasting too many days when struggling to beat some enemies fast enough or efficiently). The entire game kept risks high and I never felt a moment of relaxation, I found it very stressful. Yes, I enjoyed it nonetheless but once Pikmin 2 came along and I first entered a cave, I had a moment of relief. I could stop and regroup when necessary, focus on precision, plan each floor separately. Yes, I still had to prepare at the start of a day, since my army would be limited while I was in there. I needed to plan ahead on who to bring with me and had few chances to add to my ranks while on my underground missions. The way the game is played underground is different enough that cutting them entirely removes all traces of the strategies required; it's slower paced yes but it's still requires strategy, even if the risks might not always be as high.

Perhaps there could be compromise though. Pikmin 2 had above ground treasures but I honestly must admit the majority of the time was spent underground. A better balance between the two might be nice. Adding more multitasking requirements underground might help too. Maybe some parts could require an army to split up, and the risk of incoming enemies could require players to switch back and forth between their teams.

Feel free to add me on the Nintendo Network: ShadJV
Here's my 3DS FC, always looking for Pokemon X Friend Safaris: 2191-7643-5167
Peace!

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