I'm actually kinda confused (if slightly appreciating) why Sega keeps changing the gameplay after making games that people actually liked. You'd think after Generations they'd keep making games like Generations. Or maybe they saw the recent reactions to Mario and decided they can't make several games in a row whose main mechanics are too similar.
I don't think it's that, I think it's one or both of these things:
1. I don't remember Generations' sales that well, but I don't think it sold as much as they wanted it to. If that's the case, I think they're pretty much screwed because of the aforementioned issue of trying to please a broken base. They seem to keep alternating between different gameplay styles in an attempt to please different groups of fans, and it's not going to work now matter how many times they try.
2. They might simply be experimenting with different gameplay styles and Gamepad gimmicks. SEGA tends to do this with Nintendo consoles nowadays, they use them as glorified beta tests for gimmicks (see Secret Rings and Black Knight).
I'm actually kinda confused (if slightly appreciating) why Sega keeps changing the gameplay after making games that people actually liked. You'd think after Generations they'd keep making games like Generations. Or maybe they saw the recent reactions to Mario and decided they can't make several games in a row whose main mechanics are too similar.
I don't think it's that, I think it's one or both of these things:
1. I don't remember Generations' sales that well, but I don't think it sold as much as they wanted it to. If that's the case, I think they're pretty much screwed because of the aforementioned issue of trying to please a broken base. They seem to keep alternating between different gameplay styles in an attempt to please different groups of fans, and it's not going to work now matter how many times they try.
2. They might simply be experimenting with different gameplay styles and Gamepad gimmicks. SEGA tends to do this with Nintendo consoles nowadays, they use them as glorified beta tests for gimmicks (see Secret Rings and Black Knight).
I refuse to believe this, simply because that Samba De Amigo remake was insultingly broken.
I don't think anything could salvage this game. Not rebranding this as a different IP, not better level design, nothing. The gameplay is just plain awful and boring no matter what you do with it.
then you mean that if they changed the gameplay itself all else could be the same as it is now and the game would be saved
The gameplay is definitely the part that needs changing, but IDK, it's tricky business trying to make good Sonic gameplay, the fanbase is just so fragmented from all manner of different Sonic games that it's impossible to please. Do you design the gameplay around speed, platforming, or exploration? Should the storyline be dark and serious or lighthearted and comedic? You can't have it both ways on these kinds of issues.
Sonic = speed, traversal, and melee combat. He runs horizontally, spin dashes up and around walls and battles hand-to-hand.
Tails = hovering, exploration, and gadgets. He is slower horizontally but faster in vertical/airborne traversal. He is based around using gadgets to assist Sonic by tethering new abilities, analyzing and discovering, and immobilizing enemies with technology.
The balance and coordination between the two is what makes for the platforming aspect. Each character can only reach certain areas on their own and they combine abilities to progress cooperatively by compensating for each other's deficiencies.
As for the story and tone, classic Sonic has always struck me as a lighthearted, colorful world with a sort of slightly-dark, hip vibe. Kind of a traditional, cute Japanese kids property infused with western sensibilities and characters. That's what I would go for, I suppose.
Except the level design favors slow platforming, exploration, and combat over speed. Sonic can run at light speed for all it matters, the gameplay would still be slow because most of the levels are designed so that you can't progress until you defeat enemies or hit a switch. You can't just tear through the levels from start to finish, the game isn't designed to let you do that.
Balancing speed, platforming, and exploration is pretty difficult if not impossible because speed tends to detract from the others. Look at Sonic Unleashed and boost gameplay in general. Most of the levels in that style tend to be linear corridors and are less interactive. You don't see as much platforming because speed requires quicker reflexes and makes platforming more challenging. You don't see as much exploration either because it's tougher to speed through a level if you don't know where you're going, and additionally higher speed means bigger levels so there's less room for alternate paths. So needless to say, it's a tall order for them to "fix" Sonic because more than likely, some group of fans is going to be alienated by whatever gameplay design they go for, and SEGA is one of the last companies I would expect to be competent enough to handle that.
Not at all. Speed doesn't have to be a main design ethos, such as the original Sonic games. It can just be an ability, a movement-modifier to enhance Sonic's skills. His speed could be a counterpoint to Tails' ability to fly. The speed allows him to quickly explore horizontal landscapes, clear crowds with blazing attacks, and escape harm/danger. Also combined with the Spin Dash it could allow him to dash up or across walls and give him several degrees of speed (walk-run, activate turbo boost, charge up Spin Dash) . Whereas Tails' hover ability allows him to get a vantage point for discovering, leveraging gadgets, and flanking enemies from above.
My issue with past Sonic games is that they are often using speed as a crutch rather than an intuitive gameplay mechanic. That may be because of a determination to replicate tradition, but the effect is unwieldy partly because the basic gameplay is dull without it. Also there are technical aspects that must be acknowledged. High speed is incompatible with platforming level design because it is often an imprecise variable throughout the development process. Refinement is a long process. These developers are sort of dooming themselves from the beginning.
I understand the complicated balancing act you are illustrating, but I want to emphasize that there are many ways to achieve any goal. Game design, to me it's simply a question of imagination and perspective and possibility and reality all coalescing into a vision... Incredibly convoluted, but it's never close to impossible. That's completely disrespecting the truly difficult tasks life can demand. And giving Sega and their missteps too much credit...
I honestly think the people who have played this game for a short period of time are not liking Sonic Boom: U because Sonic isn't moving fast enough.
I hope so. This is a significant concern on my end. Are visceral reactions overcoming a fair determination? Is there a bias at work preventing some from even attempting to facilitate any joy inside themselves? Are taste and opinions nearly phasing out objective critiquing and reporting in the entertainment industry?
Yeah, no one needs to answer that last one. I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but know firsthand the sort of journalist who excels in this overstimulated internet age. So I definitely am suspect of the source of all this negativity. And far more hopeful than most. I will buy this game and I will play it with my kids. Straight up.
To that point, I admit that Morgan's Nintendolife article is probably the first one I've read on Rise of Lyric where I feel the writer honestly attempted to ferret out appeal. I grew up in the days when most gaming rags made every forthcoming game sound important on some level. I kind of miss that...
I don't think anything could salvage this game. Not rebranding this as a different IP, not better level design, nothing. The gameplay is just plain awful and boring no matter what you do with it.
then you mean that if they changed the gameplay itself all else could be the same as it is now and the game would be saved
The gameplay is definitely the part that needs changing, but IDK, it's tricky business trying to make good Sonic gameplay, the fanbase is just so fragmented from all manner of different Sonic games that it's impossible to please. Do you design the gameplay around speed, platforming, or exploration? Should the storyline be dark and serious or lighthearted and comedic? You can't have it both ways on these kinds of issues.
Sonic = speed, traversal, and melee combat. He runs horizontally, spin dashes up and around walls and battles hand-to-hand.
Tails = hovering, exploration, and gadgets. He is slower horizontally but faster in vertical/airborne traversal. He is based around using gadgets to assist Sonic by tethering new abilities, analyzing and discovering, and immobilizing enemies with technology.
The balance and coordination between the two is what makes for the platforming aspect. Each character can only reach certain areas on their own and they combine abilities to progress cooperatively by compensating for each other's deficiencies.
As for the story and tone, classic Sonic has always struck me as a lighthearted, colorful world with a sort of slightly-dark, hip vibe. Kind of a traditional, cute Japanese kids property infused with western sensibilities and characters. That's what I would go for, I suppose.
Except the level design favors slow platforming, exploration, and combat over speed. Sonic can run at light speed for all it matters, the gameplay would still be slow because most of the levels are designed so that you can't progress until you defeat enemies or hit a switch. You can't just tear through the levels from start to finish, the game isn't designed to let you do that.
Balancing speed, platforming, and exploration is pretty difficult if not impossible because speed tends to detract from the others. Look at Sonic Unleashed and boost gameplay in general. Most of the levels in that style tend to be linear corridors and are less interactive. You don't see as much platforming because speed requires quicker reflexes and makes platforming more challenging. You don't see as much exploration either because it's tougher to speed through a level if you don't know where you're going, and additionally higher speed means bigger levels so there's less room for alternate paths. So needless to say, it's a tall order for them to "fix" Sonic because more than likely, some group of fans is going to be alienated by whatever gameplay design they go for, and SEGA is one of the last companies I would expect to be competent enough to handle that.
Not at all. Speed doesn't have to be a main design ethos, such as the original Sonic games. It can just be an ability, a movement-modifier to enhance Sonic's skills. His speed could be a counterpoint to Tails' ability to fly. The speed allows him to quickly explore horizontal landscapes, clear crowds with blazing attacks, and escape harm/danger. Also combined with the Spin Dash it could allow him to dash up or across walls and give him several degrees of speed (walk-run, activate turbo boost, charge up Spin Dash) . Whereas Tails' hover ability allows him to get a vantage point for discovering, leveraging gadgets, and flanking enemies from above.
My issue with past Sonic games is that they are often using speed as a crutch rather than an intuitive gameplay mechanic. That may be because of a determination to replicate tradition, but the effect is unwieldy partly because the basic gameplay is dull without it. Also there are technical aspects that must be acknowledged. High speed is incompatible with platforming level design because it is often an imprecise variable throughout the development process. Refinement is a long process. These developers are sort of dooming themselves from the beginning.
I understand the complicated balancing act you are illustrating, but I want to emphasize that there are many ways to achieve any goal. Game design, to me it's simply a question of imagination and perspective and possibility and reality all coalescing into a vision... Incredibly convoluted, but it's never close to impossible. That's completely disrespecting the truly difficult tasks life can demand. And giving Sega and their missteps too much credit...
That's certainly one of many ways to go about designing Sonic's gameplay, but it wouldn't satisfy the speed fans, you'd end up alienating them. They'd need to design it so that you can actually speed through the levels themselves, that's what the speed fans are looking for. There's a reason why games like SA1, SA2, Unleashed, and Generations tend to be people's favorites despite most of them being full of un-Sonicy gameplay styles.
At any rate, I think the best way for them to go about balancing it is to start with Generations gameplay, add in Lost World's parkour (this would be helpful for balancing speed and platforming, since it allows you to keep moving even when you hit a wall, as well as give you a little room for error when jumping), and use open ended but directed level design along the lines of Modern Sky Sanctuary, Modern Crisis City, and 3DS Windy Hill Act 1. That would probably be the closest we could come to balancing the three styles.
Sad to see that blind Sonic bias has hit even this board. "Sonic hasn't been good since Snic 3!" So SA1, 2, Heroes (which is decent), Colors, Generations, Lost World and the All Stars Racing series don't exist to you? Eh, probably not, since you didn't play those. What "negative reception" this game gets is irrelevant since the fanbase is horribly shattered and frankly, would try their hardest to complain about EVERYTHING.
And people calling Sonic Boom mediocre, just lol. Ignoring the fact that we have not seen a lot of the game, what makes it "mediocre"? I will flat out not listen to anyone saying "Sonic's not fast enough", 1) there's speed sections, 2) speed isn't the deal breaker in a Sonic game.
And people calling Sonic Boom mediocre, just lol. Ignoring the fact that we have not seen a lot of the game, what makes it "mediocre"? I will flat out not listen to anyone saying "Sonic's not fast enough", 1) there's speed sections, 2) speed isn't the deal breaker in a Sonic game.
I think I've already said this here, but they could make Sonic run at light speed and that wouldn't fix things. The problem isn't that the speed isn't there, but you can't take advantage of it for most of the levels. Most of the stages are very combat and exploration based making it impossible to speed through them, you have to either stop and fight a bunch of enemies or stop and look for a switch or some other way to open up the next section to progress, you can't run pretty much nonstop from start to finish which is what the speed fans want.
Combat can definitely be done at speed. (Exploration should be able to as well to make it less boring - If there has to be collectables put them all on the perfect path).
Generations sold 3m copies (Including 3DS - excluding Steam) cannot see how it could have not paid off.
“30fps Is Not a Good Artistic Decision, It's a Failure”
Freedom of the press is for those who happen to own one.
Combat can definitely be done at speed. (Exploration should be able to as well to make it less boring - If there has to be collectables put them all on the perfect path).
It could, but not like this. This gameplay quite blatantly favors combat at the expense of speed. I think the way to balance speed and combat is to have a bunch of enemies populate a large but unlocked arena and then give the player a choice, do I defeat the enemies so I can safely progress, or try to dodge them and move on so I can complete the level quicker? Additionally, give the player access to some combat moves that could allow them to quickly tear through enemies or have some kind of dual purpose (for example, the uppercut move in Unleashed HD's Werehog gameplay was designed as a combat move, but speed runners also found it useful for platforming because it gave them some extra height in their jumps).
It all depends how much it cost to make. They already had most of the engine I think. (By the fact that you can mod the unleashed daytime levels into Generations).
The companies spending tons on advertising are the ones who need to sell loads of copies.
(Think about how many copies have to be sold to pay for each tv advert for example).
“30fps Is Not a Good Artistic Decision, It's a Failure”
Freedom of the press is for those who happen to own one.
Disregarding all the usual text walls for the last few pages... The only problem I can see is that this game is on Wii U & 3DS only
You're probably right, but I kinda doubt these games would even exist if Nintendo wasn't paying for them. Sony is too busy paying for indies, and Microsoft along with Sony are always trying to get the exclusive/timed DLC that doesn't really change anyone's opinion.
Tie ins to TV Shows always exist. Afaik Nntendo is not paying for the TV show.
Yeah, that's the mistake SEGA made with this tie in... Releasing Sonic on systems that pander to easy gamed Mariophiles instead of giving it to the real hardcore fanbases too
Forums
Topic: Could you salvage Rise of Lyric?
Posts 41 to 59 of 59
This topic has been archived, no further posts can be added.