Topic: Switch Pro, Upgraded Dock, or Switch Mini?

@StuTwo The limitations will be the costs of the investments, like I already explained in previous comments. It isn't about Nintendo not being smart enough to actually release different SKU's at all, it's about the possible hardware options and what they will cost Nintendo, and how much they could stand to gain from it, ROI and profit-wise, that will dictate whether or not they'll do it, and in what form it will be done.

Those are business facts, not something that I just pulled out of my behind. You could argue that I'm no video game business specialist, but it's practically the same formula in EVERY business, so just because my specialty is the IT business, doesn't mean I can't make educated guesses about other businesses. It's basically business/marketing 101.

@NaviAndMii Not lacking in knowledge, although were IT is concerned, you might be (but that wasn't my point), but it's more that you're kind of reaching, searching to fit a square peg in a round hole, and hoping for stuff that is probably not going to happen.

The reason for the port/connector could be a multitude of reasons: it could for example be that they made the case molds and cost projections and fine-tuning of the hardware made them ultimately decide not to use that extra port, which is something that happens all the time. Or, like @skywake said, it could just be for a simple dongle, nothing more.

They CANNOT put anything resembling any kind of sizeable piece of add-on hardware or whatever in there, much less fill that empty space up, because it already has a purpose, so that would mean they would have to redesign the internals to allow for heat dissipation/insulation in another way.

I want to make it very clear that it isn't my intent to insult or belittle anyone, but I would want to caution people to take care not to get their hopes up to much for something that is simply not very likely to happen.

The only thing I could see happening at some point in time, is either a redesign, because of tech moving forward, making it possible to make stronger hardware in a similar size form factor (at a similar price point), and I'm still keeping an eye out for that SCD patent that Nintendo secured, and has paid for, but that's an external device, so that isn't applicable for the discussion about the insides of the dock.

@skywake Thank you for that smart comment. I'm glad you seem to understand realistic options.

So which is it? You CANNOT have anything inside there? ..or you can, in the form of a LAN adaptor/dongle? ..I agree, @skywake makes a valid point (and it may have been concealed to avoid confusion as to what goes where) - but you, on the other hand, seem to either state assumptions as if they are facts, or just plain contradict yourself.

Just to be clear, there is no evidence whatsoever that that cavity is for cooling (it's not in the manual, or on the official site, or in any Nintendo press release) ..nor have I ever said anything remotely like I'm 'expecting' or 'hoping' for a Dock expansion - I'm just saying that it could come and here's why:

Did every active 3DS player upgrade to a 'New 3DS'? No.
Did the 'New 3DS' split the 3DS player base? Yes.
Might that have impacted 'New' branded software sales? Probably.
Might Nintendo be looking for a way to minimise that impact if they were to do it again in future? Possibly.
Could you fit a performance-boosting accessory in the back of the Dock? Possibly.
If not, could they possibly release a new performance-boosted Dock instead? They'd have to weigh things up, but they could.
...is the 'Dock Expansion' idea anything other than pure speculation at this point? No.

You say that it's not possible - I totally disagree - but all I'm saying is that pretty much anything is possible, including this (no more, no less) ..I'm certainly not hedging my bets on one coming or anything! I just liked what the 'Expansion Pak' did for my N64 late in its lifecycle - I could imagine such a thing coming again - and it is within the realms of possibility that something similar could come to Switch.

I'm not a betting man but, even if I were, I wouldn't put money on any of these ideas - least of all the 'Upgraded Dock' if I'm honest...but to say that a Dock Expansion/Upgrade 'isn't possible' is just plain false. If a 2TB MicroSD card is possible, anything is in my book!

Perhaps I didn’t make my comments clear. I don’t fundamentally disagree - it’s a complex set of marketing considerations that will determine which (if any) SKUs we get. I think you’re coming at it from the wrong angle though.

Nintendo will have a good idea of how many Switches they could sell at £400, how many they could sell at £300, how many at £200, how many at £100 with 2 free games etc. They’ll also weigh those potential buyers differently - how many additional games (budget and full price, physical and download) they’re likely to buy etc. to place a value on those customers.

Then they’ll engineer a device to hit that price point. They’ll cut major features if needed (both to save costs but also to keep the premium option well positioned at a higher price) but the key thing is it’s the marketing considerations that are primary.

When Nintendo decides they can make sufficient money from customers who will buy a £150 Switch and a stack of ‘Nintendo Selects’ budget games that they’ll never reach with a £280 price tag and full price games - then in that moment they’ll hack away to make it happen.

@NaviAndMii
Its not that hard to understand. Having some kind of dongle or other small usb device is very different from adding external hardware that boosts performance. I literally have the LAN adapter in that space on my dock. You could put one of those wireless keyboard dongles in there. Even a thumb drive or cable for sitting a USB hdd next to it. But there's not much space (or bandwidth) for much more

@skywake I understood...the only point I was making there was that @ThanosReXXX claimed, on the one hand, that the space needs to be clear 'for cooling' - then said that it's okay to fill it with a dongle/LAN adapter - which rather contradicted the whole 'the space has to be clear' point.

Let's not get so hung up on the whole 'USB in' idea anyway - that wasn't what I was getting at - as I said, it could easily come in the form of a new 'suped up' Dock instead...the end result would be the same: a 'New Switch' and an option for people who wouldn't want to buy a mid-gen console.

@NaviAndMii No, I didn't contradict myself. A dongle is a small thing and doesn't fill the entire space. Additional hardware that would give the system extra power could not fit in a simple dongle and would therefore have to fill most of the space up, and THAT is something that I just don't see as feasible or realistic.

And there's plenty evidence that the back part of the dock is for cooling/heat dissipation and/or insulation. First off, the case lining from the fan outlets on the Switch itself line up perfectly with part of the dock, which will function as a heat duct when the system is docked.

This has been discussed and explained at length by multiple sources. And the rest of the space can be used, and is most likely used as insulation. To perhaps make it somewhat more understandable, you could compare it to the back of a fridge: if that is running full force, the back gets hot, but the insides stay cool. It's not completely the same, but a "heat cushion" could definitely function as insulation and/or an additional means of heat dissipation for the Switch, keeping it cool when in docked mode.

Oh, and one more nuance: it's not so much that the space HAS to be clear, it's just so that in this case it very much seems to be designed to function that way, otherwise Nintendo wouldn't have made the backside a hollow space with molded grooves which very much seem to point to a heat duct.

And that souped up dock might come, but not with this Switch generation, nor any mid-generation upgrade. It wouldn't make sense and it wouldn't be able to maximize its purpose.

@StuTwo No offense, but I would like to point out that I don't need any explanations on how marketing works: it has been my daily job for the last 20 years and 8 months...

And I'm not coming at it from the wrong angle at all: the limitations/considerations will be more or less exactly what I said they will be, and so is the trajectory of hardware manufacturing that I described. It's LITERALLY how nearly every company goes about it, exceptions might be certain niche businesses, but other than that, it's largely the same. Any other way would be too convoluted and definitely not cost-effective...

@ThanosReXXX I’m sure you know much more than me about how the world works and I’m not questioning your decades of experience.

And of course I do agree with upwards of 90% of what you’ve had to say in this thread. I think you’re guilty of a little hubris though.

I’m not a betting man and only a fool would bet real money on Nintendo’s future course. However I would be genuinely astonished if we don’t see a ‘handheld’ Switch SKU aimed at a younger audience around or before the launch of Pokémon. Which could be next Christmas.

At the very least they’ll just not bundle the dock but they’ll probably go further and fuse the ‘joy cons’ in place. It’s certainly technically possible, it’s simpler & cheaper to manufacture and it can be positioned at a much lower price (including accepting a lower profit margin).

I also think that once their market research suggests there’s an audience for a cheap fixed location Switch (for an element of the Wii audience) if it can hit a particular price point we’ll see them hack away at the Switch to make such a SKU.

Having rubbished the idea of a ‘dock plus’ (which I still think is a bad idea before we even talk about the technology) I can even see circumstances in which it might fulfill a particular marketing role a few years from now (more from a sense of enabling 4K streaming than having any impact on the graphics of games). It’ll be a completely new dock though rather than an add on to the existing one.

@iLikeUrAttitude As Nintendo fades out the 3DS I fully expect them to develop the Switch into a family of systems. Some kind of entry level kid friendly Switch Light, and some sort of Switch plus. But I wouldn't expect to hear anything official about it any soon than fall next year. More likely 2019.

@ThanosReXXX Familiar pattern - sites "multiple sources", yet fails to provide a single one...then laces post with condescension as if that strengthens the point in some way.

I've grown weary of the discussion, so I'll just say this: It's all just speculation - the only 'fact' here is that we won't know until we know - all I'm saying is that they've explored similar ideas in the past, so they could explore the possibility again, in any number of forms (and it's likely that any number of ideas will get floated, then flat-out rejected at the 'drawing board' phase!) ..but we don't have anywhere near enough information to rule anything in or out yet (unless it's absurd, I do think my off-the-cuff '4K Dock' example was a little absurd - I was just 'rounding up')

I'd think that a Switch Mini optimized for handheld gaming is the lowest hanging fruit, and something of a necessity if it's going to fully replace the 3DS. All that's really needed is a slightly more power efficient version of the same processor, which could probably be achieved even now with a die shrink, and hopefully a reconfiguration into a clamshell design that's genuinely pocket sized; you could still have roughly the same screen size that way. Also, with the difference in power draw when undocked being only about 6W at the moment it wouldn't seem unreasonable to expect that they could make one without any downgrade in performance in that mode in a couple of years time.

A Switch Pro, that offers 4K beyond naive upscaling, would require a new generation of Tegra processors though, so that seems a little way off. Still, I wouldn't rule it out in a few years time. With a combination of a die shrink, a move to the more efficient Pascal architecture, and the addition of more CUDA cores they could probably get something that does the idea justice in four or five years.

Sticking extra processing power in the dock doesn't seem too likely though. It'd make it very difficult to develop for if you've got two CPUs that can only communicate with each other via a USB port, and games are still presumably going to be expected to work when undocked and at reduced power requirements. I'd just have that down as one of Nintendo's more speculative patents.

I don't think you did understand. There's a massive difference between a "dongle" and what you were talking about. By dongle I meant the usual sorts of I/O expansion devices consoles since the Wii have had via their USB ports. The Gamecube controller adaptor, the LAN adaptor, microphones, webcams, dongles for wireless keyboards and third party controllers for stuff like Guitar Hero. Some of which you might want to plug into a concealed port. As such it makes perfect sense that there's a port and a reasonable amount of space in there for air to move through even if you have a small dongle in that space.

Something which is entirely very different from throwing a GPU in there.....

@skywake No, I understood. I know what a dongle is - I have several. I said that you made a valid point. Now you've made the same valid point in three different ways. I got it, I get it, I agree.

I'm just not convinced that the Dock is anything other than a plastic stand with a few ports, a few holes cut out so that the vents don't get blocked off and a flap that you can pull up to make it look more neat and tidy...

...but I am convinced that the USB slot is likely just for dongle, believe me I am.

Since you made your valid point, I've even tried suggesting that we don't get so hung up on the whole 'USB in' idea and instead discuss the merits of a new, separate, upgraded/boosted Dock (perhaps a more realistic solution) - I don't know what more I'm supposed to do to move the conversation along...

@StuTwo I wouldn't go as far as me knowing more about how the world works: I'll just stick to my own trade...

As for hubris: I have none. I'm social and humble, and I've even learned plenty of people younger than me, so that will never be an issue. However, the part of what I know combined with how Nintendo has traditionally handled things, makes me think that this will be how things will go, or at least it will be pretty close. Having said that, it's never set in stone, but until proven otherwise, that is what I think.

The fused JoyCons are technically possible, but it wouldn't make sense, since that would all but completely negate the concept of what makes the Switch the console that it is, so that doesn't seem realistic to me at all.

No arguments on a new dock, albeit with the side note that it will probably not be for this version of the Switch.

@NaviAndMii In my initial comments, I've placed plenty of evidence and links, I'm not going to be your Google every time. I would hope (and expect) you're more than capable enough to do some of your own searching. The evidence is there for those willing to look for it instead of just slapping whatever text they think is true on here. Nobody with any common sense would be willing to hold your hand during the entire discussion, show some initiative, man.

And believe it or not, but at my age, I really don't feel like acting all idiotic or ridiculous on some gaming website anymore. I'm just myself. Mostly serious, perhaps sometimes a bit harsh, but never going out of my way to bother or bash people, unless they deserve it, which in this case isn't applicable, so there's really nothing that I've said here for you to be offended about.

I already explained that none of what I say in this thread is meant to ridicule or belittle people (and I've clearly stated a genuinely meant "no offense" at the beginning of several comments), and yet you continue to think it is, but the conclusion of that is that it's entirely your problem, not mine.

I've just re-read my own last two comments, and there isn't a single condescending word in there, or to be more exact: none of it is intended as such, unless you're hell-bent on interpreting it as such, so again: that's not my problem since I can't do anything about that. All I can tell you, once again, is that my comments are meant seriously and with no negative intent. If I didn't really want to have a serious discussion or explain how I think or feel about this topic, then I wouldn't invest so much time into making these walls of text.

Believe me, if I would want to ridicule or belittle you, you would definitely know right away, because I would make it VERY clear.

Anyway, I'll end this comment with saying that if anything I have said actually DID offend you, then you'll just have to take my word for it, that you really were reading too much into it, because it wasn't meant as such.

Have a nice holiday.

I think the only thing they'll do with the Switch is release a more powerful version a couple years from now when the tech can be achieved at the same price point. I do think they want to hit 4k uprezzing when docked.

They have a unique blockbuster on their hands, so I don't see them changing the form factor in any way whatsoever- that would possibly tamper with its reasons for success. Right now the Switch has a distinct look, and to modify that would be foolish. Even a "Switch mini" is not a possibility in my mind because then you're crossing firmly into mobile territory and would possibly start to confuse people (just like the Wii U distinguishing itself from the Wii). And call me crazy, but I do think they want Switch to be their "main, home" console, even though it's a semi-portable console (though I think this simply reflects the way many of us now live - on the go).

I'm predicting a GameBoy comeback when they finally stop the 3DS... just you wait and see! The environment is ripe with nostalgia lately, and people are almost starting to revert when it comes to all this overwhelming technology. A new, small GameBoy with insane battery life capable of playing all the traditional Nintendo handheld games is just begging to be released. I think the 2DS was their experimental step back toward a GameBoy device, actually, and I"m sure they're watching it closely to judge response. (You'll notice the 2DS generally outsells the 3DS most months, at least in Japan.)

@ThanosReXXX I don't have to. I know that if I snap the back cover off of my Dock, the Switch will continue to function correctly. Without it, the 'empty space' would be completely exposed (and void) - which I can assure you would have little-to-no impact on performance - but putting a back cover on the Dock makes it look tidier, so that's why it's there.

The empty space is just empty space, leaving ample room for the two cables and potentially a dongle (or whatever) - it doesn't appear to serve any further purpose, so it likely doesn't.

I'm trying to move away from the points I made in my original post because there have been some valid responses since - but for some reason we keep coming back to it! ..even when I say things like "I do think my off-the-cuff '4K Dock' example was a little absurd" or "let's not get hung up on the 'USB-in' idea" - the main reason being that, on balance, the output probably wouldn't be large enough to make it worthwhile -
not because of any supposed 'cooling/insulating' purpose though, because that's nonexistent.

...to your other point, maybe 'condescending' wasn't the right word - StuTwo's choice of 'hubris' is perhaps a bit more accurate - you deliver your points in a way that makes it come across like you somehow have some kind of elevated perspective on the whole thing...but you don't - you CAN'T. There are too many variables and too much necessary information that we just don't know (lifespan, demand, rival moves, costing, pricing, trends, third-party requirements etc. etc. etc.)

I, too, have plenty of tech experience - I'm 31, had my first computer when I was a toddler (and been using and taking a keen interest in them ever since), been gaming since the SNES, built my own PC - and have innumerable other 'credentials' ..but, like anyone else, I don't have a crystal ball and at least seem to recognise that none of us are in a position to make accurate predictions given the limited information we have at this point in time - especially when it comes to Nintendo, who revel in the unexpected!

I'm genuinely just happy that they appear to be on the right track again - and am excited to think about the possibilities...whatever they choose to do - judging by their recent upturn in fortune, I'm sure that it'll be a well thought out and carefully considered move.

I just generally object to opinions and assumptions being stated as facts - 'this won't happen', 'that wouldn't make sense' - all sounds unduly definitive as far as I'm concerned...

Still, I'll happily take your word for it that your intention wasn't to offend - much appreciated - and I echo your sentiments with regards having a happy holiday etc (same goes for all!)

I’ll just assume you had a glint in your eye when you typed that .

The fused JoyCons are technically possible, but it wouldn't make sense, since that would all but completely negate the concept of what makes the Switch the console that it is, so that doesn't seem realistic to me at all.

I disagree. It’s a very desirable concept for a lot of people and not at all inconsistent with Nintendo’s marketing practices.

To start by addressing the idea it negates the concept of what the console is.

Nintendo is the company that launched a glasses free 3D system. It was the big sales point and literally in the name of the console. Then they launched a version (multiple versions) that completely ditched the effect.

The 2DS has been incredibly successful and has been a big part of the success of the 3DS family. That will affect the thinking within Nintendo as a company - it makes it more likely that they’ll make the same type of move again.

Then to look at the reasons of ‘why’.

Nintendo knows they have to have a handheld targeted at kids. That handheld needs to have a few properties: it needs to be robust, mechanically simple and come in at a price downwards of £200 (preferably less than £150). It also should ideally prevent cannibalising the existing Switch (& so should be clearly positioned as slightly inferior to the current more expensive Switch).

If they sacrifice some margin expectation, reduce internal storage (seriously) and/or slightly reduce screen size then the fused joy cons Switch 12-18 months from now can get to the right price point. It will certainly be easier to sell to some parents when there’s fewer easily removable parts.

Yes it loses some of what makes the Switch special and it’s clearly inferior so I wouldn’t personally consider buying one for myself. But that’s kind of the point...

I don't think there's a huge amount to be saved by making it with a smaller screen or reducing the internal storage as both are fairly cheap. The things pushing the price of the Switch up are the SoC, the cooling solution, the dock, and the detachable controllers that need their own batteries, bluetooth, etc.

A purely handheld switch doesn't need the dock, so if you can shrink the SoC so that it doesn't need active cooling and the controllers are built into the unit, you could probably knock $100 off the price without needing to scrimp and save so much elsewhere. It's no longer much use as a home console for the TV either, so they don't need to worry about cannibalizing sales of the original either.

Making it with a smaller screen might assist in making it more compact, but if it's given a clamshell redesign it could still be quite pocketable without any compromises required there.

The phrasing here is a bit weird. I assume you're saying that you're not convinced that the dock is literally what the dock is. I think you still don't quite understand what @ThanosReXXX and I have been saying. Everything about the dock has been pretty clearly designed to work as the dock currently is working. There's sufficient space in for a USB dongle, HDMI and USB Type C cables, airflow and a door on the back to keep it tidy. So when you said there was wasted space in the back that could be filled with additional hardware to boost performance? It didn't make much sense.

Ok, I'll discuss the merits of the idea in general. But first I think you need to step back for a second and actually look at what the current dock does. It's basically just a dongle for the Switch. The Switch pushes a display port signal in addition to a USB 3.0 signal over USB Type C. The dock is therefore just a USB hub, Display Port to HDMI converter, DC pass through and a status LED. This is what we know the Switch itself can do.

Now for an external GPU to be possible you'd need to be able to push a PCIe signal over Type C. Which is entirely possible because that's literally what thunderbolt is. The problem is that I very highly doubt the current Switch supports thunderbolt. If it did they'd be paying extra for a feature that's completely useless until this supposed "Dock +" comes along. To put it another way such an upgraded dock would first need a revision of the Switch.

........... but at that point what are you even doing? Why not just make the newer version of the Switch itself faster? Then you wouldn't have to pay for two GPUs and you'd also be able to enjoy the benefits of more power when undocked! Surely that makes more sense. I don't see much reason for an upgraded dock to exist. Again, unless it's to support the features of newer HDMI revisions (HDR, Variable Refresh, 4K @ 60Hz)

@skywake thunderbolt is Windows tech. USB 3.0 speeds are too slow for eGPU. This rumor just isnt possible...

@RickRau5
1. Thunderbolt is developed by Intel and is relatively mainstream standard
2. There are thunderbolt ports on non-windows and non-Intel based devices
3. I didn't say USB 3.0 I said USB type C. External GPU enclosures connected via USB Type C is a thing

4. I wasn't saying it was a thing on the Switch or that it made sense. If anything I said the opposite. I said it could be in theory but that it doesn't make much sense especially given that it almost certainly wouldn't be possible on the current SKU. If you need a revision of the Switch to support it why not just make a more powerful revision of the Switch?