Topic: Paper Mario: The Origami King

If I had to make a reasonable guess (honestly this game could be many things, this isn't as much of a guarantee as a new 3D Mario), this will be a step in the right direction from Color Splash in the same way that Color Splash was compared to Sticker Star. But it will still make some really stupid mistakes for no good reason in some moronic backwards attempt to pretend this JRPG series isn't a JRPG series.

What about this game: 'Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam' (I had to look it up, kind of forgot it exists)

As far as I understand it doesn't really do any justice to the standard Paper Mario game formula. But as a lightweight introduction to the character it seems entertaining enough, and from the review on NL sounds like it shook up the Mario and Luigi formula to balance action and RPG elements.

@JaxonH it's almost scary to me how much dialogue they built into her glossary. Like they put so much thought into the world that she could never run out of things to say (except maybe in that room lol). Super impressive how much of a passion project it was that made TTYD exceptionally great.

This game looks hype. There’s no reason to be pessimistic unless you just want to be.

Everything about it looks fantastic. It doesn’t matter if it’s a JRPG or not. All that matters is that it’s a good game (see Super Paper Mario). It definitely looks like a return to form, but being a return to form doesn’t mean a 1:1 clone.

The grand epic scale real sense of adventure is back. That’s huge. That’s absolutely huge. And arguably the most important distinction. Resource-based attacks are also gone, in favor of traditional attacks.

Those two things right there were the biggest detractors of Sticker Star. Those two things right there were why people didn’t like the game. And yet both have been addressed, so I’m not sure where this “Sticker Star” comparison is coming from. This game looks nothing like Sticker Star.

Add to that a genuinely intriguing puzzle twist for gameplay, an original boss for the first time since the Wii era, partners that join you throughout your adventure just like Thousand Year Door (and new footage shows Bob-omb with you in the wheat field, in town, and with you in another scenario which just confirms, along with the other footage which shows him with you in the cart lift and on the river, The partners are a significant part of the game). They may even help in battle. We also have the battle audience back from Thousand Year Door, and a button to cheer, which can only mean Star Power returns or at the very least, items from the audience thrown at you.

With all this in mind I find it mind-boggling someone could say it just looks like the next Sticker Star. That’s such a shallow, unrefined take. It very well may have some similarities with the game but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Not everything about that game was bad. But everything people hated about it has been addressed, so, as they say, what’s the beef.

That’s not to say it’s the perfect dream game of the series. I’d still like to see unique outfits. But at the end of the day as long as the characters have personality, that matters far more than slapping a mustache on a goomba

For the record, by the way, I flat hate the people online using the "it's not even out yet!" excuse. If Nintendo did a poor job of showcasing the game after angering fans so much two times in a row, that's their fault. People should not have to look into obscure foreign language trailers to find out basic information about your video game you are selling to them in two months. In general, but also because if what you have is better than those last two games, showcase why then!

Based on what I saw, the new villains and story setup and of course visual design all look great. But the core problems were not addressed in that trailer, and thus if people don't want to play it, there's probably a reason. Also, people don't have to like a game or want to buy a game, don't even imply that you weirdos.

Sorry, I'm not talking about anyone here. Smug people on Twitter really bothered me on this game's reveal. "You don't want to spend 60 dollars on a game based on the information presented, ENTITLED!!!!111!!!" Honestly that attitude is way worse than even Sticker Star was.

also for the record since I've been complaining the whole time, if people really like this game (especially people who I trust who hate the direction Paper Mario went with Sticker Star), I'll probably get it eventually. Not this year, I have some of Nintendo's older Switch games to play, among other things.

@JaxonH I hope you're right and this ends up being a great game, but that trailer hasn't given me serious faith in it yet. You seem to be assuming a lot of things are returning that haven't been confirmed. I actually don't care whether most of them do or not. I just care that the game doesn't feel soulless. Like... unique character models for example. You are absolutely right in saying that doesn't matter as long as gameplay and writing are good. But the fact that they aren't there is an indicator. If they didn't want to spend time detailing interesting characters, why should I believe they are well written? I see a battle system which looks passable, but saying "it isn't as bad as SS" is not a strong enough argument for me to care about it. And frankly, we haven't seen enough of it to tell whether it's good or not. I hope it is. I just need to see more to be convinced. And I admit I have a strong bias. Sticker Star shattered my faith in the series and nothing has happened for me to start believing in it again. Only time will tell.

To be fair, the gameplay is still up in the air.

@kkslider5552000

What core problems? There's a turn based battle system with strategy elements. While there clearly are not unique character designs, it appears to be using established Mario characters like Kamek and Bowser Jr. as major characters. The main thing that we don't know is just a progression system and combat partners, and the latter wasn't even really a significant part of Super Paper Mario.

In addition to that, this game looks more open and possibly more non-linear than any Mario RPG ever.

The vibe I'm getting is that people are upset that Nintendo isn't making TTYD2, which I honestly don't believe will ever happen. If Nintendo feels a franchise has been refined perfectly, then they don't do it again unless they can elevate it in a significant way

Yes, in the .5 seconds its shown in the trailer Nintendo wanted people to watch, to the point that a second trailer showing more was taken down.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying this is either a marketing mistake or there's a reason they didn't want to show people the combat

Technically, Sticker Star was more non-linear in places than previous Mario RPGs. Non-linear is interesting but not inherently good or bad.

There are dozens of ways you could innovate Paper Mario without making stupid decisions. There's a difference between people only wanting the old games, and wanting what made the old games good over failed innovations that basically no one prefers.

For example, I was totally in the camp for Wind Waker when it came out and hated the people who just wanted OOT with better graphics. But then I preferred Twilight Princess anyway because Wind Waker had actual problems beyond stupid ones from stupid nostalgia people (also why I vastly prefer WW HD to the original)

Like I dunno what to say. I respect innovation and I don't want games to just be the same, but in the 2000s they released SIX DIFFERENT Mario RPGs, five of which were fantastic. None of which felt too samey. There was never some real problem with "eh, I've seen this" barring maybe Dream Team after the 2000s (which is more interesting and less samey than I thought it would be tbh).

@kkslider5552000 Heyo! Longtime-no-see! Also I miss Paper Mario of yore which were fantastic JRPG's.

@EOTW
I’m going 100% by what we saw in the trailer and subsequent footage. You don’t have an audience and the ability to cheer them if nothing happens. It’s clearly a return to the audience system of older games.

Not having unique character designs is not indicative of anything other than Miamoto’s mandate to do so when Sticker Star was being developed. They don’t have a choice in the matter because he told them it essentially diluted the brand (or so I reason- why else would he tell them that?). So that’s not an indicator of anything. It just means that’s off the table now and has been for years. Maybe one day when he retires they’ll have the gall to ignore his wishes.

When I watch the trailer the last thing that comes to my mind is “soul-less”. This looks like the best paper Mario game in a very long time. Obviously you’ll never truly know if the game is good until it’s out but we can still make a pretty good judgment based on what we’ve seen, and everything we’ve seen is pointing to be not just good game but a fantastic game.

@LzWinky
We know what the gameplay is. We’ve been stomping and hammering for decades. It’s not like that’s new to us or anything. We know it’s a return to unlimited attacks that aren’t resource based, and we know there’s a unique puzzle element to line up enemies and do more damage. There will be some other minor mechanics but that’s the gist of it.

@kkslider5552000
It doesn’t matter if they try to hold off revealing combat until later. Either they are planning a surprising reveal where partners join you and want it to be a surprise or they are extremely self-aware that people are going to be angry if partners are not in the game in which point I would have to question why they would even design the game like that if they are so self-aware to know people will hate it to the point they hide it. If anything they would release a new video showing a partner doing the tutorial in combat to clarify.

What’s most important is irrespective of whether partners are in battle it still looks fun. So it’s a win win. It’s still a return to normal attacks, the #1 complaint of the last two games, so now that that’s been addressed it should not so lightly be brushed aside. If it’s not really that exciting seeing it return to normal attacks, then why did everyone make such a big deal about resource base attacks being so horrible. Guess it couldn’t have been that bad if nobody really cares when they finally change it..

As for the nonlinear part, I think what they’re trying to get across is it looks much more grand and epic and adventurous. To the point it’s exciting just seeing the environments. Sticker Star never excited anyone with its environments or sense of grand adventure.

The fact the response to this game is overwhelmingly positive (see nearly 200,000 upvotes to 6k downvotes on YT trailer) speaks for itself. The trailer showcases a game that looks really good.

And as previously mentioned, unique outfits and characters are off limits. Miyamoto put the Kabash on that. So using classic characters is not indicative of poor writing or anything else. It’s only indicative of the fact they’re not allowed to anymore. I mean the writing in color splash was fantastic. The writing is always good. Why would that be brought into question? Even just from the snippets from the trailer we see characters gushing with personality. And we see partners are huge part of the game. There’s so much good stuff here and it feels like some people are ignoring everything good that’s been shown. See Bob-omb with you in so many places, and the crazy emoting, not to mention in the official trailer kicked back with half shut eyes, legs crossed... it’s just so good.

Note 55 seconds through 1 min 12 seconds, not only how Bob-omb is with you in 4 different places but also how he emotes. I’m falling in love with these characters already and there’s only been a 2 minute trailer!

There's no way Miyamoto cares in 2020 if a Toad has a name or unique appearance. People go back to this one thing that was said once as if it was the only possible reason for anything that has happened in the past decade, and its weird to me. Like you can look up the feedback they got from SPM that Japanese players apparently didn't care about story, or how adding stickers changed Sticker Star's development or how new people are in charge of Paper Mario, there's other factors here, y'know.

Well from that (again) very tiny snip of a combat experience we see... matching a wheel. And then Mario stomps all the enemies in a single move, a la most of the extremely trite "action" Nintendo has been putting in the series lately. It's impossible to ignore what happens in this aspect of the game because it will almost certainly be a focus. And even if there is a great story full of twists and turns, we will inevitably be caught up in resolving conflicts over and over... they better be good.

Also I don't really understand a statement like: 'the greatest new title in ages' when this looks very akin to the previous game. There hasn't even been a standard bearer of the series SINCE the Thousand Year Door ( or maybe SPM for some) so that seems hyperbolic at best given what we know.

@kkslider5552000
Sure there’s other factors, but people keep going back to that one thing because that one thing changed the entire aspect of the series moving forward. That one thing... it matters. Whether Miyamoto cares about some particular choice now, I don’t think anyone can say. But what we do know is that he told them he didn’t want that. And since they are hired to do a job that clearly had an impact on what they are and are not willing to do. Even now today people’s behaviors are swayed by subtle intimidation or a boss who says I want this. Even if they don’t mandate it there’s the implication they will not be happy with you if you go against their wishes. He told him straight up “don’t use anything other than Mario characters“. I seriously doubt when they are developing the next game in the series they throw that right out the window and say “eh, the hell with what he thinks”.

You don’t have to like it. I don’t like it. But that is the reason for the change and as long as he’s a top dog in the company, unless Miamoto personally approaches them and says “ya know what, I’ve changed my mind, you should do that” they’re not going to. And yeah that sucks but it is what it is. Point being though, that doesn’t mean the game won’t be good. You don’t need any one particular thing to have a great game you just have to have smart design. And that just boils down to talent and learning from mistakes. After the whiplash from color splash and seeing the kinds of changes they are making in this game, it’s very clear to me they’ve taken that criticism to heart.

Paper Mario is great due to witty writing, personable characters and fun gameplay. There’s a lot of other smaller stuff that also contributes but when you really break it down those three things are what make it great. Even story, as much as I would prefer it, isn’t what made TTYD great. Truth be told I skip a lot of the dialogue because it just bores me. It’s the witty banter of the characters. And having characters with unique personalities. Obviously I love their crazy designs also and that would help elevate the game even more but it’s not a crucial pillar.

@OptometristLime
It looks every bit as similar to Thousand Year Door as the precious game, unless you’re judging on aesthetics alone, which case I would say it’s a fantastic thing that it looks similar to the previous game because the previous game, aesthetically, looked incredible.

Original boss (similar to TTYD and SPM, not the last entry)
normal attacks not resource based (similar to TTYD, not the last entry)
Battle audience (similar to TTYD, not the last entry)
Larger, more grand adventure (similar to TTYD, not the last entry)
Partners (similar to TTYD, not the last entry)
Enemy allies (similar to TTYD, not the last entry)

I don’t recall anyone saying this looks like the greatest new title in ages, although I said this looks like the best Paper Mario since the Wii entry (and it does, by far)

And that “trite action” has been a staple of the series since its inception. You could boil Super Mario Bros World down to just being “trite actions” stomping on heads. You could boil Metroid down to “trite actions” shooting your arm cannon. You could literally say that about any game. But in truth it’s really fun. The battle system will surely take the core foundation of the older entries and actually makes it more engaging by adding a new puzzle element. If that’s trite, then I’m surprised thousand year door didn’t bore people into their graves.

But anyways, I’m not too concerned about whether the story will be good. I don’t think the story has ever truly been great. It’s the clever writing and characters that really make the impression. Fun gameplay + lovable characters + clever writing = success. And from what I see, all 3 have a ✅

You're misrepresenting the situation entirely. Out of the previous 3 Mario & Luigi games, the only one not natively playable on the 3DS via BC is the Superstar Saga, which did get a remake. But out of the past Paper Mario games, there were only two not playable via BC.

Nintendo did absolutely nothing with the Wii's library outside of finally releasing digital versions the disc based games they had published. As for the DS, GBA, and N64 entries in the series, the Wii U could handle emulation for all of those.

But the Gamecube? It wasn't going to play the discs natively without them making their own disc drive. And as for emulation, it's far too complex to run emulated on the Wii U. Could they possibly have made digital releases of Gamecube games in the same style as the Wii releases? Probably. But the Wii U wasn't selling enough to justify it.

It's not that they don't care about the GameCube library. We've seen Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, Pikmin 1&2, Donkey Kong Jungle Beat!, Chibi Robo, Luigi's Mansion, Metroid Prime 1&2, and Mario Power Tennis all made it onto other consoles. It's just that the GameCube is the first system where emulation is incredibly costly to develop, and incredibly power hungry. People have written SNES emulators by themselves, but it's taken a team of dozens of people over a decade to get Dolphin up to par. Which means we won't be seeing massive waves of GameCube titles appearing anytime soon through BC or emulation, just individual rereleases. On top of that, GameCube is still from the era where much of the source code has been lost, so who knows if Nintendo even has the source code for Paper Mario: TTYD or if they'd have to rebuild it from scratch.

Maybe with the Switch's successor that will change and emulation will happen but... Without emulation, we'll only see the occasional remaster/remake, same as games from any other system.

OK I haven't looked into any of the details for this. So do people think it's true that they're returning to the party turn-based RPG system, or not?

I'm not sure why you honed in on one singular aspect of my post and make that symbolic but hey; as per my observations this seems to be a place of exaggeration and emboldening every aspect of limited truths. Consider that we have a staggeringly small window of recorded gameplay yet it's turned into TTYD and the Third Trimester. You don't need to design a system which only extraterrestrials have the intelligence to play. With that in mind, the genius of TTYD's combat systems lies in how approachable they are independently and yet can be combined in a nearly infinite series of ways. The multiplicity of options available to you grows with the number of partners, Mario's abilities, and to a great order of magnitude: the badge system. What these recent entries do is skip to the pummeling without regard for any of the finesse which used to shine through.

To me it takes the most effusive of fans to offer claims of true succession to a game which has barely lifted the lid on a title screen, and say it's an heir apparent to the genius of the original games. Open sacrilege (even on the best of days) is how I would view that assertion. There is more to be gained by leaving open the possibility of this defining some new niche of the Paper universe, than there is in striving to "beat" or even clone those games. I'm eager to see them adhere to the wiser rules of that original formula, but also not blind to the unlikelihood of that actually becoming a thing.

I'm fully engulfed in the original right now and while I'm seeing all the hate for sticker star, it's $15 at game stop used. I'm trying to find a copy with case and paper cover. For $15, I think i might take a flyer on it even after hearing some negativity about it.

As for TOK, I simply can't wait for July to come. Seems like another game I need right now just like animal crossing was. Upbeat, funny, and colorful.

@OptometristLime
place of exaggeration and emboldening every aspect of limited truths

Theres no exaggeration. I addressed your exact words.

and say it's an heir apparent to the genius of the original games. Open sacrilege

Nobody is saying that. On the contrary, people such as yourself are saying its heir apparent to Sticker Star despite having just as much in common with older entries, and has clearly diverged from what made people hate that game. I'm simply pointing out the folly in such a stubborn insistence that anything other than TTYD2 is "just another Sticker Star". The fact you would even use the word "sacrilege" conveys the emotional attachment clouding rational judgement. As if the old games are divine and any such deviation is a sin against all fans.

There is more to be gained by leaving open the possibility of this defining some new niche of the Paper universe, than there is in striving to "beat" or even clone those games

I agree. Which is what I've been saying from the beginning. It doesnt have to be a clone to be a good game. But on a scale of 1 to 10 theyve at least done a 5 in returning to beloved aspects of the older games, and that's just what we know of.

The endless cynicism in the face of so much good starts to wear thin. Reserving judgement and having concerns is one thing. Ignoring everything good and condemning any deviation from an exact TTYD replica is fanaticism.

I dunno. It just all seems very similar to Colour Splash to me. Which I think wasn't THAT bad. But some of the mechanics were really aggravating. So if those are gone, then this should be alright. And I actually prefer regular Goomba, Koopa and the bunch joining your party. Goombas with hats, or Toads with hats on top of their already existing mushroom hats don't make any sense to me

I went back to the Colour Splash trailer, and it had a ''dark'' intro as well, similar to Origami King. I went to read the comments and I found this comment on top from 3 years ago!:

''What's next? Paper Mario Origami Rush?''

That person pretty much called it back then lol!