Forums

Topic: Next Nintendo Direct?

Posts 9,821 to 9,840 of 10,123

skywake

VoidofLight wrote:

Except, Sony didn't abandon the console generations. People think that abandoning console generations can work, but it'll never work in the slightest. It's all PR bull to make people think that they're doing something unique, when everyone knows that without generations games would just become stagnant as a whole.

It's amusing because you've kinda proven my point a bit. As I said, people are wedded to this idea of console generations and can't see past it. And somehow think it's the only way to get new experiences or signficant improvements in performance.To the point where even when it has been eroded to the degree it already has by Sony/Microsoft people still think in terms of "generations".

I'd argue that Sony's marketing around the PS5 is nothing but an attempt to continue to appeal to people such as yourself. They want you to think of the PS5 as an entirely new generation of console. It's a call to upgrade. Is it better hardware? Sure. But the PS5 is closer to a PS4 than the PS4 was to the PS3, PS3 to PS2 or PS1 to the original Playstation. It just is. This is not the same console generation cycle we've been used to. That cycle is a dead concept

I'd argue the PS5 is as much a new "generation" as the PC upgrade I did in 2019 was. Is a Ryzen 5 3600X + 500GB m.2 SSD + 1660Ti significantly more capable than the i5 4590 + 120GB SATA SSD + R9 285 I built in 2014? Definitely. Was my 2014 build a significant leap above the Core2Duo I built in 2009 and was that a significant leap above the Athlon 64 I had in 2005? Sure. Were these "entirely new generations" of PCs in the same way we think of the Switch was after the Wii U or GC after the N64..... no...

You can play PS4 games natively on the PS5 with better performance than if you played them on an OG PS4. The same is true of the XBox Series which goes even further by litterally having to different SKUs with entirely different specs. I expect Nintendo's next jump in hardware will be similar, I see no reason for it not to be. And I'd argue that anyone who says otherwise is living in the past. Nintendo Switch will live longer than the X1 SoC the current Switch uses

Edited on by skywake

Some Aussie musics: Pond, TFS, Genesis Owusu
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

VoidofLight

@skywake I generally count generations when a console can do something in which another console can't do, not performance wise. The ps5 has an SSD, allowing for games to load faster and for things like bigger game worlds. The GPU allows for things like Ray-tracing, and there's much more that the ps4 can't do, that isn't just "Ps4 but upgraded".

Games like God of War Ragnarok are going to clearly suffer in terms of it's level design and gameplay capabilities because it's releasing on both the ps4 and ps5, with the ps4 holding the game back.

And tell me, if generations are gone, then won't that mean a couple years down the road, games will just stagnate in terms of progress development wise? Given that they'll have to make the game run on previous hardware, or else they'll divide the playerbase. There'll be no more exclusives between things like the switch and it's successor, given that exclusives are a thing that mark a new generation of consoles. Progress will just continued to be hindered.

(Insert creative or cool phrase here.)

kkslider5552000

As a counterpoint, I'd argue most people making games with top tier PS5 or even PS4 era graphics stopped progressing regardless. Like outside of graphical capabilities and maybe size (and other vague, generic "look at our console's power!" flexes)

That Ratchet and Clank game does exist so I don't dismiss your point entirely, but if I want games to be making progress, in most cases, I wouldn't be playing a ton of big budget games in the first place. I think that became clear to me when Shadow of Mordor came out, its Nemesis system looked like the breakthrough of PS4 level technology people were wanting, and then literally zero games beyond its sequel ever did anything like it (and now they can't, thanks WB!)

That doesn't mean I buy the end of console generations. It feels like one of those things where they looked at another successful thing and just decided "THIS IS DEFINITIVELY HOW THINGS WILL GO NOW" for no apparent reason. Like maybe it will happen when VR or cloud gaming becomes popular. I'm sure it will happen any week now. Or month. Or year...

...decade...

Edited on by kkslider5552000

Non-binary, demiguy, making LPs, still alive

Bioshock Infinite Let's Play!:
LeT's PlAy BIOSHOCK < Link to LP

skywake

@VoidofLight
You're conflating performance and compatibility, they're different things. I'm talking about consoles going more along the lines of what we see on smart devices and PCs rather than the traditional "start from 0 again" we've seen for consoles over the years. Will there eventually be a cut over point? Obviously yes. Will hardware keep advancing? Yes. But there won't be the clear cut-over.

For example Apple's devices run iOS, you have iOS 1 all the way through 15 and every Apple product gets support across multiple iOS versions. Each new device adds new features, every version of iOS has new features and over time the hardware has become more and more capable in general. As far as developers are concerned you're not really using an iPad 8th Gen, you're running iOS 15. I mean hell, you could be running an iPad Air 2 from 2014 and also be on iOS 15

This doesn't mean hardware hasn't advanced, it doesn't mean there's no performance gap. It just means that there's software compatibility across hardware releases. Also..... I wouldn't be expecting a super fast SSD on Nintendo's next hardware if it keeps the same form factor and a similar price target. And something like RayTracing, simple, just don't enable it on the hardware that doesn't support it

Some Aussie musics: Pond, TFS, Genesis Owusu
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

VoidofLight

@skywake I fail to see the benefit of getting rid of console generations honestly. As far as I’m concerned the PS5 is to the ps4 like what the 3Ds was to the DS, the next generation. The only reason why the ps4 is getting games that were originally supposed to come to the ps5 is because Sony can’t produce enough ps5’s at the moment.

I don’t look forwards to a future where we have 60 or 70 versions of the exact same console, with no real innovations like the phone industry. I’ll never see why people want the game industry to be like the mobile industry, as the mobile industry’s practices are god awful, with the yearly phones that are barely any different than one another, other than being more expensive, and being a bit more powerful. This isn’t a future I like the looks of at all..

(Insert creative or cool phrase here.)

jump

@VoidofLight Is the PS5 more "innovative" than the PS4 though?

Nicolai wrote:

Alright, I gotta stop getting into arguments with jump. Someone remind me next time.

Switch Friend Code: SW-8051-9575-2812 | 3DS Friend Code: 1762-3772-0251

Grumblevolcano

I don't like how with the Apple model, support is dropped with not much warning. Perfect example is what happened earlier this week, major security issues leading to an update being released (iOS 14.8) but the devices that were getting security updates on iOS 12 as recent as June 2021 got nothing. At least with console generations, the warning is the existence of a successor.

Grumblevolcano

Switch Friend Code: SW-2595-6790-2897 | 3DS Friend Code: 3926-6300-7087 | Nintendo Network ID: GrumbleVolcano

Grumblevolcano

Hmm, looking at the .0 updates for ACNH:

Year 1

  • 1.1.0 - March 20th 2020
  • 1.2.0 - April 23rd 2020
  • 1.3.0 - July 3rd 2020 (Summer pt.1)
  • 1.4.0 - July 30th 2020 (Summer pt. 2)
  • 1.5.0 - September 30th 2020
  • 1.6.0 - November 19th 2020
  • 1.7.0 - January 28th 2021
  • 1.8.0 - February 25th 2021

Year 2

  • 1.9.0 - March 18th 2021
  • 1.10.0 - April 28th 2021
  • 1.11.0 - July 29th 2021

The timings are similar so far (main exception is that summer update in 2020 was split into 2 parts) hence we'll probably get the announcement of the fall update next week for release around September 29th/30th.

Grumblevolcano

Switch Friend Code: SW-2595-6790-2897 | 3DS Friend Code: 3926-6300-7087 | Nintendo Network ID: GrumbleVolcano

skywake

VoidofLight wrote:

I don’t look forwards to a future where we have 60 or 70 versions of the exact same console, with no real innovations like the phone industry. I’ll never see why people want the game industry to be like the mobile industry with the yearly phones that are barely any different than one another

Except you don't have to buy every release. All the more incremental revision model means is that when you buy the device new it's at a spec that is reasonable for the time you buy it. That's it.

Also your complaint here is what? That the newest phone is only incrementally better than last years model? Well guess what, the new Switch is basically identical to the 2017 model internally. Surely if you think that incremental performance improvements every year is bad then, logically, no performance improvements for 5-6 years is worse.

Also, technically, the Switch OLED model is the 4th SKU since launch. There was the launch Switch, the 2019 quiet revision, the Switch Lite and now the OLED model. Before the Switch we had 5 revisions of the 3DS and 4 revisions of the DS. Going back to 2004 that's 9 revisions of portable hardware. If we include Wii U and Wii SKUs that's another 5 which brings us to 14 in the last 17 years. Nintendo basically release a new hardware SKU every year anyways....

Grumblevolcano wrote:

I don't like how with the Apple model, support is dropped with not much warning. Perfect example is what happened earlier this week, major security issues leading to an update being released (iOS 14.8) but the devices that were getting security updates on iOS 12 as recent as June 2021 got nothing.

I mean I'm no fan of Apple but one thing that's hard to complain about with Apple is the life of support for old hardware. iOS 14 is available on devices going back to 2014/15. The console equivalent of your scenario here would be like complaining that Microsoft didn't release a security update for the 360. Nintendo discontinued Nintendo WFC in 2014, 2 years after the Wii U launched and "replaced" the Wii on shelves. No contest as to which model is more consumer friendly

Lets take an example here. Lets say Nintendo revises the Switch in 2023 and 2027. In 2028 they release some games that still run on the original Switch, some that require the OLED Model or 2019 revision (now with the clock unlocked) and some that need the 2023 revision. You probably say now that sounds horrible right? But what's the alternative scenario? The alternative scenario is that after around 2024 NOTHING comes out for the current Switch.

I preffer the rolling revision model.

Edited on by skywake

Some Aussie musics: Pond, TFS, Genesis Owusu
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

StuTwo

VoidofLight wrote:

You can't make use of better tech for games without having a generation, or making games exclusive for a certain device. For example, many ps4 games don't make use of the ps5's controller capabilities at all, and a lot of games releasing on both probably won't either. I know for a fact game worlds won't function the same, with them either having a choice between using the SSD to help prop up a big seamless game world, or them making a game for a previous gen console, only for it to not take advantage of the SSD at all for the world of the game.

Whilst I take your point I disagree. The fact is that it isn't any given piece of hardware that's limiting innovation - it's the whole model of game development and marketing in 2021.

We saw this with the Wii U - that was an extremely innovative piece of hardware. Third parties hated it and (where they did support the console) they often just ignored all of the innovative features entirely (as indeed some of Nintendo's own internal teams did). The same was true of the Vita and even the motion sensing in the PS3 controller (this isn't just a Nintendo issue).

Third parties just want straight ports that look and play as identically as possible on each piece of hardware. That reduces the workload and gives them more control over the final user experience. The third parties are the bulk of traffic on the roads of the industry so this is what is putting a drag on innovation.

By contrast first party developers have an active interest in pursuing game designs that actively utilise innovative new "gimmicks" that are only found in the latest hardware SKU (because the first party wants to sell the new hardware). You see this with devs like Media Molecule's games for Sony.

StuTwo

Switch Friend Code: SW-6338-4534-2507

Grumblevolcano

@skywake They've done better for devices released after 2015 (products that could upgrade to iOS 13 in 2019 have been able to upgrade to both iOS 14 and the upcoming iOS 15) but 2014-2015 is a mixed bag where some have been able to upgrade meanwhile some got fully abandoned because of the situation earlier this week.

Grumblevolcano

Switch Friend Code: SW-2595-6790-2897 | 3DS Friend Code: 3926-6300-7087 | Nintendo Network ID: GrumbleVolcano

VoidofLight

@StuTwo The Wii U failed because everyone thought it was an attachment for the Wii, nit a new console.

(Insert creative or cool phrase here.)

VoidofLight

@skywake Yeah, you don’t have to buy every model at release, but if you want the best experience for games, you kind of do. If you want to play the games how they were meant to be played then you have no choice, if the console is more powerful every year.

(Insert creative or cool phrase here.)

skywake

@VoidofLight
Litterally every other tech category on the market has something new and better just around the corner. You're either made of money or are simply an idiot if you have to always have the newest one. Also, frankly, if you're willing to buy every piece of hardware to have the most premium experience why are you defending a model where they don't give you that option?

Anyways, there are two types of consumers the traditional model hurts and you appear to be completely blind to this. People who buy at or near launch are taking a gamble, they can be burned if the console becomes the next Wii U ( kinda ties into the point @StuTwo is making). And even if you're somehow not burned for the first year or so you have a tiny library. Which also hurts the platform holder who has to sell the new hardware on the promise of content. Notice one thing that's very different about the Steam Deck vs every other hardware anouncement? The discussion is about how well games run not if it has enough games

On the other side people who buy late are also burned. If you brought a Wii U late you were pretty quickly abandoned. Breath of the Wild released on both but after that the Wii U is basically forgotten about entirely. Sure the person who jumped on the Wii U late has that catalogue of Wii U releases to buy from they wouldn't have had (yet) if they jumped on Switch. But they're now missing out on Super Mario Odyssey. Sure there's eventually a cuttoff in the "smartphone-like" model also but it doesn't impact the people who jumped on board all the way upto the day before new hardware

Lets say hypothetically Nintendo releases a "new Switch" in 2022. In your ideal world it's an entirely new console generation in all the usual sense of the word. What happens with Metroid Prime 4? And if you say "2022 is too early" well sure, I'd argree, but if you push it further down the road you still run into the same wall with some other title. Does that title release on both requiring Nintendo to redirect development effort to porting? Does it just release on the new hardware burning recent Switch owners? Objectively is your scenario better or worse here compared to the model where the whine is "why do I have to buy new hardware for 60fps and HDR??!?!!" instead of "I brought the Switch for Metroid Prime 4!"

As I said, people are wedded to this idea of console generations. I expect you'll find it impossible to even consider the above. You'll probably try to weasel some new excuse from a partial quote again. But I think it's pretty cut and dry which model is better

edit: Anyways, new controller in March. Probably more NSO content

Edited on by skywake

Some Aussie musics: Pond, TFS, Genesis Owusu
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

VoidofLight

@skywake Things generally move during development. But in the case of something like Metroid Prime 4, if it were promised for Switch, Nintendo would most likely release it as a cross-gen release. Just like how BotW was a cross-gen release, or Twilight Princess. Usually game companies keep their word when it comes to games that they already promised a release for on a specific console. Nintendo has kept that promise, so saying that not having console gens is better because of this reason makes literally no sense.

Yes, people buying near launch are usually taking a gamble when it comes to buying a system, as the system could flop, or game devs just decide to simply not support the system at all due to a flaw. There's always a chance of that happening, but staying within the confines of a single console is pretty stale as well, given that innovations, while they happen, usually end up happening at a slower pace due to having to comply with past consoles. PC's are a different beast, and while you compared a pc to a games console, it's not exactly the best comparison due to how game consoles work in general. A Phone is a phone, no matter how many times it's upgraded, and same with a pc.

I don't know about you, but I'd hate to have a switch, and then Nintendo decides to release a console that's the same as the switch, but can support 4K 60 fps, with games being built for that instead. While the game would run on the switch I have, it would end up being a even worse experience than the version that's made for the same console, yet more expensive. The upgrade model is just as terrible as the traditional model, if not moreso because of situations like these.

(Insert creative or cool phrase here.)

I-stopped-caring

I hope that the next direct will happen before the end of September.

I-stopped-caring

skywake

@VoidofLight
Not really. I mean you're saying that smartphones and PCs are vastly different to consoles but that's not really accurate at all anymore. This isn't the 90s when every new console had an entirely different architecture, media or controller scheme (often all three!). In terms of hardware a Switch and an iPhone are fundamentally the same, same with a PS5/XBox Series and a PC. It's unlikely that they will change any of those things anytime soon either (PS4/PS5 are pretty similar, same with XBox Series v One). The difference is purely in how much these companies choose to artificially lock down their platform

Also I think you're deliberately missing the point of the theoretical Metroid Prime 4 example I made up. No matter what you say it is an undesputed fact of the console model that the cut-off between generations is pretty sharp. If whatever comes after the Switch 2 doesn't maintain forwards and backwards compatibility? Soon after its launch the current Switch will start missing out on a LOT of content. Even content that isn't particularly demanding

VoidofLight wrote:

I don't know about you, but I'd hate to have a switch, and then Nintendo decides to release a console that's the same as the switch, but can support 4K 60 fps, with games being built for that instead. While the game would run on the switch I have, it would end up being a even worse experience than the version that's made for the same console, yet more expensive. The upgrade model is just as terrible as the traditional model, if not moreso because of situations like these.

You've litterally killed your argument here. In this scenario you buy this game for the current Switch after the launch of its successor and are disappointed with its performance. But you have the option to choose to buy the upgraded model and continue your game on that. With a traditional console model you're either forced to upgrade for that game or, on the very rare occasion it's cross-gen, you are locked into your decision of console when you purchase the game

Edited on by skywake

Some Aussie musics: Pond, TFS, Genesis Owusu
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

VoidofLight

@skywake I don't think I killed my argument, given that in both scenarios, yeah you have to buy the game console and the game, but at least you don't have to worry about the game made exclusively for that console running like trash.. where as if you can't fork out the money for a switch pro, then you'll be stuck with an inferior product that barely resembles the experience that marketing promised, while the richer folk who can afford to get the barely upgraded console will be playing the game as intended.

(Insert creative or cool phrase here.)

skywake

@VoidofLight
There are plenty of games on Switch that already run like trash. If I was a budget gamer I'd take being able to run a game on the previous model at 720p/30 with some dynamic scaling over not getting the game at all. And if I wasn't happy with that I'd be happy that there was an option to get better hardware that does 1080p/60 with a larger draw distance, maybe some HDR, possibly some pseudo 1440p via DLSS.

There's no question here that the traditional console model is super weak in this aspect in partucular. I'm willing to concede in theory the vague notion of "innovative entirely new and unknown things not possible". Something that is happening less and less with every generation as we get to the point where performance is the only change per-generation. But in terms of largely static hardware where the only improvements are internal? The argument for not being more forwards compatible is non-existant

Edited on by skywake

Some Aussie musics: Pond, TFS, Genesis Owusu
"Don't stir the pot" is a nice way of saying "they're too dumb to reason with"

kkslider5552000

New models of game systems, even now, from my perspective, are just reminders that waiting is good. I keep up with Nintendo games more than anything else, and this one has the least issues of getting cool non-Nintendo games since the GCN, so I don't regret my purchase. But now, in the past, maybe especially in the future, the first version is the worst version. Still a real shame the first version of 3DS didn't have the 3D abilities of the New 3DS, it fixes my biggest issue with 3DS' core gimmick.

I mostly just find this to be a non-discussion (which it already is, since I don't think its happening like companies say it is), since it implies yearly updates would lead to a notable amount of games making their games run differently on console, per updated console. And in a way that is fundamentally different from being the weaker console in a console generation with multi platform titles (let alone Ps4 Pro or the like). Both companies bothering and people noticing a difference, simultaneously? Eh, doubt it.

Edited on by kkslider5552000

Non-binary, demiguy, making LPs, still alive

Bioshock Infinite Let's Play!:
LeT's PlAy BIOSHOCK < Link to LP

Top

Please login or sign up to reply to this topic