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Topic: Metroid Prime 4: The Long(er) Wait

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ThanosReXXX

@Octane I can already hear the faint echoes of potential whining...

'The console wars are like boobs: Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'

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Zkibu

@EvilLucario Yes we have, the disinterest in the market place and low quality games. You do realize that there won't be another one if it don't start to sell.

Just to be sure, I am not talking about some static sandbox with monotonous missions like Ubisoft games. I am describing timeless classics like Ultima VII, Ultima Underworld, The Legend of Zelda and Breath of the wild. Dark Souls is actually good reference point because like Dark Souls Metroid is originally tailor made for experienced player. It's about time to differentiate, Nintendo should do better than tons of indie developers. The Market is saturated with Super Metroid-clones.

It's no surprise that in these forums people are really passionately against change. I remember Zelda fans being absolutely against everything new (or perhaps returning to roots). Fast forward to Botw and Zelda is mainstream again.

Edited on by Zkibu

Zkibu

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EvilLucario

@Zkibu How are you drawing parallels between "linearity of games" to quality? What the hell is that jump in logic? There are some fantastic games that simply didn't sell. Rayman Origins and Legends both didn't sell that well initially despite being good games, for example. Need I bring up EarthBound's initial release? Beyond Good & Evil? The list goes on.

BotW didn't even change that much anyway. All it did was go back to Zelda 1's design ethos and make it fresh again, while further fleshing out ideas made in A Link Between Worlds. Ditto for Odyssey to 64 and Sunshine.

While I'm not against change (see Fusion), I'm not for change that removes a core ingredient of a series for the worse or doesn't respect it. Even since the original Metroid, hard locks have been a thing with the Morph Ball, Bombs, Missiles, etc. Ditching that for an open world setting which can't have hard locks blocking off a lot of areas goes against that.

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Zkibu

@ThanosReXXX There you go. Much better, still perhaps some excercise with the politeness is needed. No idea why so hostile reaction buddy. Like I said I wasn't trying to attack someone's favourite games. I am just worried about my favourite franchise and trying to figure to solutions for fun. If I am wrong then I am wrong. About your post:

First part we agree, but for some reason you contradict yourself. You know the corridors are there to mask the hardware limitations. The enemies can't follow you to the another room for example. I never said that the world should be excactly like Hyrule field. There can still be places Tallon Overworld, Torvus Bog, Norfair, Brinstar and even that Wrecked ship. It would be still about exploring ominous places. Removing artificial blocks wouldn't destroy that. Why there even would be doors all over the planet? The Metroids are certainly not using them.

Player tries to find better gear and new places in Zelda and Metroid. Not very different premises to me. However you mention the difference in feeling and atmosphere. When I said that the open world suited well for Metroid. I meant the concept, i never meant it should play excactly like Zelda. Player is representing completely different characters and different arsenals. I honestly thought that would be a no brainer.

Obviously forums or this one forum does not represent the market place. This is just a bubble so pretty much what we say here don't matter outside of this place. If someone is disagreeing with me here I can certainly live with it.

Zkibu

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Zkibu

@EvilLucario I certainly didn't do that. Most popular Metroids are the ones with more freedom. The less popular are more linear. It's not that hard to figure out what the Metroid players want. Still Other M and Federation Forces are bad videogames despite them being linear.

I wonder why didn't you mention Super Metroid? Did you know that it wasn't popular when it came out? It was too damn easy, remember Metroid at that point was for the experienced player. Now of course it is respected for it's design, perhaps thanks to the popularity of metroidvania-genre. Sometimes the game is just wrong for it's market.

Nintendo devs mentioned with BOTW that they wanted to go back to the roots. It has nothing to do about what they wanted to do. The backlash was so huge after the SKyward Sword that the audience forced them to go back.

Nobody is going to remove Morph ball, missiles and supermissiles, they would be used as a weapon instead of keys.

Zkibu

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EvilLucario

@Zkibu Oh yes, Super Metroid was indeed a very good example of misplaced market. But no, I don't think linearity has anything to do popularity because that's short-sighted and only pins it to one area. Fusion, for example, is up there with Zero Mission (which is more non-linear) in terms of fan popularity despite the linearity. When people criticize games like Super Metroid and Zero Mission, it's because they're too easy. Prime 3 was more popular than Prime 2 on release with fans, etc, despite being easier than Prime 1/2.

Missiles/etc are dual-purpose for both unlocking parts of the environment AND combat-utility. That's what makes Metroid upgrades special - not only could stuff like the Screw Attack destroy common enemies, but you could destroy blocks that needed it. Missiles are strong almost everywhere, Speed Booster increased movement options while clearing obstacles, etc. They're used as BOTH weapons and keys.

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ThanosReXXX

DISCLAIMER:
None of what is written below, should be read as if it is said in an angry or insulting tone.

Hope that helps...

@Zkibu No offense, but I have no idea what you're talking about, since none of what I said was offensive, or meant as such, and in all honesty, while you're accusing me of not being polite, you may possibly not even be aware that you're addressing me with somewhat of a belittling tone, so I'd say some looking in the mirror is required, before you point at others...

I think it is a combination of you being the new guy here, so not knowing how this community works and/or handles each other, and English not being your native language. That's all okay, though, so not a knock against you, but some consideration before you try to label people of whatever, might not be such a bad idea.

And sorry, but no, I don't contradict myself, and I never do. From your reaction, I'm going to assume, for now, that you didn't watch that video, or that you didn't watch it and really absorbed what point it is trying to get across.

And I don't know what to tell you, but if you don't see that many differences between how the Zelda and Metroid franchises work, then I think that there's just no real open discussion possible, because you're largely just sticking to your point, offering it as what you seem to think is the only valid one, while everyone but you thinks that it actually is.

And the game examples you listed, are all rpg-like games, so indeed more like Zelda than Metroid. Gameplay differences aside, I simply don't think that a Metroid game should be structured like that, because, like others have also already tried to point out, it would take away from what a Metroid game should actually feel like.

And yes, of course this forum is only a relatively small community, but so is the Metroid fan base as a whole.
The games have never sold as much as other Nintendo series, not even remotely, so the two are pretty much balanced. The dedicated fan group wants a new Metroid Prime, and they want it done right, I don't think anyone here or on any other site who loves Metroid Prime, is now all of a sudden looking for the series to change into Metroid: Breath of the Chozo or something like that.

On a side note: I can't speak for the others, but for me personally, it's not about being against change by default. It's about being against change when it serves no purpose. As the old saying goes: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it",
and Metroid needs no fixing, much less transforming into an open world.

And considering it's roots and inspiration, it would also seem that there really isn't much merit to it, and the potential benefits may be far outnumbered by the negatives that it could potentially create, which could scare away the loyal fans, and make the fan base even smaller as it already is.

As for enemies not being able to follow you after a door has closed: that's a rather weak point, seeing as even Zelda has that: rooms are locked off, once Link enters, and only open again when the puzzle is solved or the fight is won, so I wouldn't really see that as something supporting your argument.

Edited on by ThanosReXXX

'The console wars are like boobs: Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'

Nintendo Network ID: ThanosReXX

Zkibu

@ThanosReXXX oh boy, seriously? You were the one who was labeling and picking the tone in our little conversation. You literally started by saying that I know nothing about Metroid. Besides I am not new in here. I just spend more time in Arcade competition thread.

The original basic premises of Zelda and Metroid share SOME similarities. Of course there are still differences between the two franchises. I even said that in my last post to you. I mentioned the open world concept and adopting that to Metroid instead of just putting Samus' helmet on Link's head and Call it Breath of the Chozo. You didn't read that part or you didn't understand.

About the arguments. All I have heard this far that for some reason the locking is essential to Metroid, which I just don't agree. Oh and some anecdotes. I am not talking about the personal tastes. I am just considering what could be the best for Metroid's future. If the last good game is from the year 2007 there is definately some serious fixing needed. The fanbase is already scared away.

Can you please explain your penultimate paragraph? For example you could perhaps explain why do you feel that the negatives would outnumber the merits?

Zkibu

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kkslider5552000

I will say, I feel like one of the reasons everyone hasn't been particularly angry about this delay is that no one could be that mad about it by this point. If this had happened sooner, it would've been a bad sign for Metroid after Other M. If this had happened later it would feel like they had cancelled a completed game (or had wasted way too much time on a game they weren't going to release). But instead it's been so long, that 11+ years after Prime 3, an extra couple of years barely even matters. Thank god they never showed anything about the game as well, that turned out for the best bizarrely enough.

Non-binary, demiguy, making LPs, still alive

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HobbitGamer

I just decided to look over the last two pages. And I've learned a few things.
-BotW is a 'timeless classic'
-Hardlock progression is somehow not considered the same as 'requiring better items' or 'having stronger enemies'
-If you enjoy things the way they are, you just don't like change
-@ThanosReXXX insults people with simple words
-Ultima is still somehow relevant.
Untitled

#MudStrongs

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ThanosReXXX

@Zkibu I see you completely ignored my genuine disclaimer there. That wasn't a joke: I was dead serious, hoping that it wouldn't result in another (seemingly) offended reply. Oh, well... can't win 'em all, I suppose...

I wasn't picking on you, I stated in general that people who want the mechanics of the Metroid games to change, don't know or understand what the games are about. I did not direct my message solely to you. I would have tagged you otherwise. I was just agreeing with @EvilLucario, that's all.

And no offense, but no one likes to be belittled or getting a virtual (and rather sarcastic) pat on the shoulder for apparently doing better at being polite...

AGAIN, and try and understand it this time, please. In NO comment of mine, was I offensive, nor did I intend to.
I clearly stated "likewise" in my reply to you, concerning wanting to have a normal discussion, but you either keep reading me wrong, or you're cherry-picking stuff out of my comments to support whatever point you're trying to make concerning the way I'm communicating.

And allow me to rephrase: maybe you're not ALL new, but you're still relatively new, compared to most of us that you're now in discussion with, who have been subscribed here for far longer than you. We're not easily offended in general, and you should be able to take some criticism. No one ever died from being criticized, but if you're not able to take punches, then perhaps you shouldn't deal any either, whether intended or not.

As for the benefits being outweighed by the negatives, that is something that I already mentioned in all of my previous comments, and so has @EvilLucario. The whole eerie, isolated and claustrophobic atmosphere that IS Metroid, would vanish all but completely, if they would turn it into some large, open world game.
I'm sorry, but I don't know any simpler way to say it.

I think that I've previously already gone into quite some detail, but apparently, that wasn't enough.
And consider the source material, and the inspiration that the game got from the Aliens movies that I mentioned before: it was a VERY clear and undeniable example for the reason for the confined spaces/corridors, which also showed that limitations of hardware aren't (really and/or necessarily) a reason for having those in the game.
It's simply about creating a certain atmosphere and setting a certain tone.

One that perfectly fits with the whole lonely, isolated bounty hunter/mercenary setting, and one that you simply could not recreate in an entirely open world-like setting.

I think that most of us can agree that ever since the Prime trilogy, the subsequent games haven't really stood out as epitomes of brilliance, so no one is debating that, but just because bad decisions were made with those particular games, doesn't mean that we have to completely restructure the whole foundation of the series,
to accommodate an open world setting.

The Prime series is still very highly regarded, and as such, I think it's pretty safe to say that most Metroid Prime fans will simply want another good game along those lines, with some improvements here and there, and of course with shiny new graphics, but other than that, there's really no need for something wildly different from the previous three Prime games.

Edited on by ThanosReXXX

'The console wars are like boobs: Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'

Nintendo Network ID: ThanosReXX

ThanosReXXX

@JackEatsSparrows I'm insulting no one. No offense, but this is turning to a rather tiresome and annoying evening, if people keep misreading my comments. You're probably just kidding, so take no offense in that case.

I guess it's just one of those days for me...

'The console wars are like boobs: Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'

Nintendo Network ID: ThanosReXX

HobbitGamer

@ThanosReXXX Nah, my friend, I didn’t see anything insulting. Just having a laugh at it all 😁

I like the linearity in Metroid games. It would feel horribly awkward to me if it had a more open feel. Prime 2 already is hard for me to put down and pick up after awhile because of its change in access. And I don’t know how many times I got lost in the original Metroid II.

#MudStrongs

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ThanosReXXX

@JackEatsSparrows Yeah, I suppose I should just shrug and laugh it off. Sometimes, though...
Agreed on Prime 2. A fourth game in the series could do with some tweaks, but them naming it Metroid Prime does seem to indicate that it is a part of that continuity, and as such, it creates a certain expectation for me, and probably a whole lot of others, that it isn't going to be something completely different from those previous three games.

Just more of the same, except bigger, better and more beautiful.

Edited on by ThanosReXXX

'The console wars are like boobs: Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'

Nintendo Network ID: ThanosReXX

NEStalgia

I'd like to thank @ThanosReXXX for encouraging me to participate in this enlightening and well balanced discussion. I figured I'd come and add my own input to continue the conversation in its current insightful and contemplative direction:
Untitled

Discuss among yourselves.

NEStalgia

link3710

@ThanosReXXX Just butting in to point out that Prime 3 wasn't really any easier. They just renamed the difficulty levels, with Veteran being the old Normal and Hypermode being the old Hard (There were only two difficulty levels in the first two games). Basically, they just added an easier difficulty to make the game more accessible, but they failed to make that clear.

Edit: Whoops, called Veteran Hard by mistake.

Edited on by link3710

link3710

ThanosReXXX

@NEStalgia Well, thanks a bunch, pal. Back to the Xbox 360 thread with you. Haven't you got any external hard drives that need listening to?

@link3710 Oh, I agree, but seeing as @JackEatsSparrows only mentioned Prime 2, that was the only thing that I responded to, obviously. All of the games had their ups and downs, that will hopefully be addressed to some extent in the fourth game, but they are classics nonetheless. And well-deserved too...

'The console wars are like boobs: Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'

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GeoChrome

@NEStalgia You forgot Blast Ball.

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Zkibu

@ThanosReXXX hmm.. What does my time in here has to do with Metroid? I saw your disclaimer. But what was I supposed to do? If I am disagreeing with you that doesn't mean I am offended. Your approach just seemed to be quite unfruitful and sorry if I was belittle but I can read without the boldings thanks.

About that statement (about the knowledge of Metroid). Believe me I want to say this most unoffensive way. It just sounds funny when you want some openmindness from someone who disagrees with you when you yourself have already decided what should be the consensus of the next Metroid Prime. What there is to left to conversate then if you already think that other views are just absolutely wrong? I don't mean that you or anyone have to buy my idea, but I am sensing some echo chamber vibes here.

About cherrypicking:

  • you guys are worried that the open world would kill the tension
  • I am saying that open world doesn't have to be some wide large space.

Hard to cherrypick anymore.

That's it for my part with this childish distraction. I am willing to return real conversation If there is somebody interested.

Edited on by Zkibu

Zkibu

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ThanosReXXX

@Zkibu Doesn't have so much to do with Metroid as about having a feel for how we communicate with each other. The additional comments of others should tell you more about that. Nobody but you was offended about what I said. And bolding words isn't offensive, it is simply meant to emphasize words, to underline importance. If I was writing words in capitals, then I could understand where you're coming from, but in this case not really.

As for your idea: you started the discussion, no one agreed with you, and when we tried to explain the when and why, all you did was emphasize your own point, and in the process labeling ours as not being valid, we not wanting change and so on and so on. So, no offense, but who is having difficulties with having a normal discussion here?

Personally, I was just looking for some middle ground, or a better explanation from you than "Metroid should be more like Breath of the Wild or Ultima because reasons". You said it's not about the specific gameplay in these games, but you didn't really go into a whole lot of detail about how we should see that work in practice then.

So, give that another try, and we'll see what comes of it. I already previously added that when Samus is in space/off-planet, that there could be space battles or whatever, to mix it up a little bit, but we do like the isolated and claustrophobic feel, because... well, because that is what Metroid is about.

Or to be more precise: that's what Metroid Prime is about. Nintendo themselves have put that idea in our minds, well at least: in most of our minds, by giving it that name, hinting at there being a connection with the trilogy, which would at the very least require some kind of similarity between the new game and the previous three. Upending that tried and tested formula, would instantly create a disconnect for most of us.
(as in: "well, whatever kind of Metroid game this is, I don't know, but it most certainly isn't a Metroid Prime game, regardless of what Nintendo labeled it as.")

Nintendo created expectations, and those need to be met. So, I really do believe that there is very little room for them to radically change stuff, whether for the sake of it, or whether because it's actually possible hardware-wise.

Changes can certainly be made, environments made bigger and so on, but that doesn't mean that it all of a sudden has to become an open world game. And if it isn't an open-wide space, then we might as well call it a sandbox game instead of open world, which would make it a different discussion altogether.

The devil is in the details, as they say, so if you're up to it, sketch us a bit more of a fleshed-out idea and who knows, we may not be so opposed to your opinion as we are now, after all...

I'm perfectly willing to listen, as long as you give us a bit more to go on than just saying "Metroid should be more like BotW".

Edited on by ThanosReXXX

'The console wars are like boobs: Sony and Microsoft fight over which ones look the nicest and Nintendo's are the most fun to play with.'

Nintendo Network ID: ThanosReXX

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