Topic: Metroid Prime 4: The Long(er) Wait

@Tyranexx Honestly I think you guys overestimate what having an open world would do to the feeling of isolation. It sounds more like a "change is bad" argument at it's core.

The feeling of isolation has more to do with atmosphere and the fact you're tackling the game's problems as the lone heroine bountry hunter more than anything else. Having an open world won't change that much if they do it right.

@MegaVel91 We're talking about the metroidvanian progression which is the core of every Metroid game. You have to have doors. Hard, though not necessarily literal doors that gate progression, and a succession of interesting items and upgrades to open them. If Nintendo wants to develop a Metroid Prime game, they should spend most of their energy thinking up new item designs and how they will work in puzzles, combat, and progression.

@Haru17 ...You know Federation Force did basically what I described. Only problem was, being on the 3DS it had to adjust for the lack of a second stick, making it impossible to aim and move the camera at the same time. Switch has no such issue, and it's really easy to make sure gyro only comes in when needed, as seen with Breath of the Wild's archery.

Fact is, the Switch has nothing to replicate pointer controls. Using joy-cons like that would leave you holding them in an incredibly uncomfortable position for pushing buttons.

@meleebrawler No, you could hold either Joy-Con flat in your hand as you aimed it at the screen in your lap. I'm serious, go try it.

Gyro controls are strikingly inferior to Metroid Prime 3's aiming and — you will notice — only work in third-person games (and then not even very well). There's no reason for the series to take a step backward from a proven, intuitive motion control aiming scheme.

I turned off gyro in BotW because it was kinda skittish. Although it seemed to work well in Splatoon.

But yeah, pretty sure Joycons are flexible in how they can be used. Pointer included. They've got how many different sensors again?

And this sounds like a "change is good" argument, so please don't pretend you have an argument.

There are open world elements you can use well in it, but it is almost inherently a contradiction to what people like about Metroid as a series. So even with a really good dev, the odds are, something would be compromised somewhere. And honestly it seems like overcompensating to appeal to core gamers. I like Nintendo innovating but sometimes it is entirely unnecessary.

Which brings me to the point that the Metroid Prime games innovated by turning a 2d exploration platformer shooter game into a first person "shooter". Which it did so to best change and recreate what made Metroid worked in a 3d environment, and even then it had to have some of the best first person platforming (not great, but ok for pre-Mirror's Edge type of gaming), in order to not make that part awful. I have no idea what open world would be needed for any change in Prime. Just make some bigger environments here and there.

Like BOTW, despite being a critically acclaimed game (incredibly so) and being a far more logical pick for a series to turn into open world, still took a ton of time and effort and money, and I question that Nintendo, even now, would consider Metroid a big enough investment to make sure NO MATTER WHAT that it worked out in the end (as Other M clearly showed). And even then, even people who LOVE the game, I've seen admit quite a bit that something was lost from previous 3D Zeldas. So even the best example of turning a Nintendo franchise open world...still had issues.

Just make a Metroid Prime game. It's been a decade, just let them make a game we already know can be good. Don't just force elements from EVERY ****ING BIG BUDGET GAME THIS DECADE. Just be a Metroid game. You won't die if Metroid Prime 4 isn't open world. Just let it be a well designed video game that's its own thing. Is that ok? Or are we gonna demand Rhythm Heaven be open world next? MOLE MANIA OPEN WORLD GOTY!!!111!!

Don't brake what doesn't need fixing!

Ya, forget open world, just give me a Metroid Prime game in the vein of the original trilogy. Wanna make it no loading like an open world, cool, but anything beyond that can and should be saved for a game that's not called Metroid. It's like the open world fever is hitting the Nintendo fanbase, and all it took was one game (Zelda). Not every game is well suited for that style. Pokemon, absolutely. Metroid... I never thought I'd live to see the day that's actually something people want for it.

Not sure how to feel about auto save. Maybe it could work, but the tension of finding save stations was part of the appeal of the games. Maybe just make them more frequent, and add a bookmark feature similar to Fire Emblem where you can save and quit at any time, and when you start up again you resume where you left off. That would be the best solution, I think

The autosave thing stems from my want for the combat to be intricately difficult. When I think of Metroid Prime I don't think 'those games are good because of the combat' — it's usually the level design, enemy design, and puzzles. They certainly got better as they went on, but Retro is just an American developer making a not combat-focused game. Not that it's a proper Japanese studio, I want to see melee attacks, but not just a single animation like Samus Returns. Something directional would work; maybe a sliding kick and thruster dive kick from the air.

This would work better in a third-person game, but it would be interesting if Samus' Power Armor / Varia Suit got damaged and broken away in places as she was hit by attacks. It would reveal patches of her Zero Suit and leave her open to conditions like poison and her actual 'game over' life being depleted. I realize that sounds like some fetish trash, but I think a Halo-like overshield that doesn't regenerate until you visit a save station would he an interesting survival horror element to add. I'm not sure how it would work with energy tank expansions, but it could be displayed in first-person by a small diagram in the corner of Samus's visor sort of like the Forza car damage diagram. Samus' hitbox would be separated into shin, boot, helmet, Varia suit chest harness, chest, etc and would shrink a little bit as her armor broke down (maybe it's made of energy?) Something like this would be a good opportunity to refine Samus' hitbox along with additional close-quarters combat options, as I always felt it was a little nebulous in MP Trilogy. Also, that diagram would give players feedback as to where they were being hit so they could understand and change up their gameplay.

@meleebrawler: Thanks for the warning! I managed to beat it, though I've found since that it isn't the only miniboss/boss that likes breaking your lock-on.

@Haru17: Agreed on the wonderful aesthetics in regards to some of the save stations. That was part of my motivation for finding them. I suspect the Prime games wouldn't impress some graphics nuts today, but when I first entered Phendrana...wow. I couldn't help but appreciate the detail that must have went into the game when it was first made.

As for adding more save stations, I wasn't suggesting adding them to every other room, but to make them more frequent like you suggested.

I got my first true taste of the Luminoth civilization yesterday and got to learn more about the dual nature of Aether. I also entered Dark Aether for the first time; comparisons of this game to ALttP are very accurate. The higher-ranked Ing are hard to hit and seem to like jumping/warping around. O_o At least I managed to get the Space Jump Boots back.

@Tyranexx Ah, the Space Jump Guardian you fought is the only Warrior Ing that actually, well, jumps, so you don't need to worry about that. As for the "warping", you mean turning into black goop to move around, right? You can still damage them in that state (just have to aim manually), and in fact will make them solid again faster.

@Tyranexx I started a new MP2 file last night too. There was an earlier save station, you must have just missed it.

You had to use the charge beam to shoot some boxes in Hive Chamber C. That would reveal a blue door that leads to the first save station.

I figured that Samus' suit was nigh indestructible except when it's energy depletes or her plot armor is weakened enough that she can lose abilities from a random explosion (see: Prime 1).

We should perform an atmospheric re-entry test. If Chief's humans-made suit can take it...

Not really familiar with Halo, but they could take a page from Half Life's HEV Suit. Samus could have both an energy meter, which is her actual health, and a shield meter, which improves her resistance to damage (in other words, the same attack would deal less damage to her if her shield meter is higher). The shield could be degraded with successive attacks and could have its own upgrades.

@meleebrawler: Correct, I was referring to the black goop. I was unaware that they could be damaged in that state, so thanks! Those fights should go faster now.

@Aurumonado: I did manage to find that save chamber; I was just wishing there had been another between that and the next one I found. I was expecting to find one around/right before that area with the GF ship.

To be fair, it was starting to get pretty late during that particular play session; I just wanted to find a save station and go to bed. XD

@Bolt_Strike That's sort of the dynamic I was thinking of, it's just strange to refer to Samus' bioorganic health as 'energy containers.' Maybe she would always have the same 100 health and energy containers built up her Power Armor's durability? The shield in Halo was rechargable, which isn't what I'm going for. If anything I want absorbing life units from enemies to be a temporary solution, not something that can totally refill your capabilities.

@Tyranexx Yeah, especially now that the game's on Switch they should have a solution for stopping playing, whether its a bookmark feature or just more frequent save stations.

I don't really want to spoil anything about Echoes, but I love the room you first intentionally teleport to Dark Aether in.

"It's like the open world fever is hitting the Nintendo fanbase"

Open world fever is hitting everywhere, also inside Nintendo. For example: Mario odyssey is also open world (sort of). That's why the checkpoints in levels are actually warp-points. The levels are gigantic!

In my opinion they should have gone the extra mile by making just one massive world instead of those seperate levels, and yeah Metroid open world could be great. But not every game has to be open world and hundreds of hours long. And in case of Mario, the "empty" disease is already hitting. Some places look very empty. And combined with the real world easthetics, very un-mario like.

Okay, maybe I went a bit off-topic there.

Ya, not feeling the melee combat. I love the melee counter in Samus Returns- that rocks, but Metroid is combat has always been shooting, and that's ok. Guess I wouldn't mind one move tossed in for situations where you're in close quarters or something, but I don't want to see it become a focus where Metroid becomes a melee combat game. Maybe adapt the melee counter from Samus Returns or something, so it's reactionary rather than proactive.

I bet the development team knows the score. After seeing the reactions to the announcement, they're probably feeling pretty good about the insane level of interest in the game they're making. Which will only serve to encourage them to go all out, and make the best game they possibly can so as to not disappoint.

I'm feeling good about it. I think talented new development teams, I think Splatoon, which was a fantastic game. This might be just what Prime needed: a new perspective. And, this means we still have a Retro game to look forward to. And it's been in development since December 2013. Almost 4 years. Whatever it is, it's had a long time to cook. I bet we see it revealed before e3 2018. Otherwise, a reveal next e3 would mean almost 5 years development before even announcing, plus time until release. I have a feeling it'll be out next year. I suppose they could do a surprise reveal next e3 with a holiday 2018 release date.

I hope they bring back the Grapple Beam upgrades. It went from a situational “oh hey, I can skip this one part/ get through this one room“ to a weapon in it's own right.

Maybe increase how many things can be grappled. It'd help with exploration and combat then.