@Bolt_Strike i disagree - I don’t want a remaster to be a “new” game. I want it to be the game I remember. It should look “the same as I remember” - which means it needs to be improved significantly but in line with the original design.
This is exactly what happened with Metroid Prime.
I don’t generally want new power ups that weren’t there before. QoL is one thing (the updated controls offer this) but I don’t want the original design to be broken (the controls kind of do this but I think it’s a fair compromise - in part because it naturally makes the game easier which is more in line with modern sensibilities).
As to Metroidvania design principles more generally - I don’t generally like fast travel since I think it’s usually contrary to the design of a good Metroidvania (although I “get” why people want it and it is sometimes necessary for larger maps). Part of the appeal of the genre is constantly walking through a “boring” space many times and later passing through it in a different way with different skills.
Fast travel robs you of that. It makes a game feel very different.
Auto save - as in “checkpoints” rather than a hard save - don’t fundamentally change the game IMO. You still need to find the save points, you just aren’t as harshly punished for choosing the “wrong” path and accidentally missing a save station (which I personally find happens more often in the Prime games than 2d Metroidvania games).
The odd isolated “corridor” area late game is just part and parcel of the genre too. I don’t think it’s a design flaw - it’s almost baked into the genre. You have near enough the full skill set and you won’t be revisiting many times so those areas start to function like more traditional levels. They usually aren’t as memorable as earlier areas (or dedicated linear action games).
The very late game scavenger hunt is a waste of time to make the game go on longer - I’d agree on that - but it does have some value.
I agree on not having fast travel in a game like this. The map is veeeeery close to being a tad too big and needing perhaps a minor form of fast travel, but after playing Remastered (I only ever dabbled in the original), I'm ultimately glad there is no fast travel, even if I did a TON of backtracking. That is what a metroidvania is about, after all, and it adds to the immersion and feeling of accomplishment when you do get stuff done or find the path you were looking for. In general, lack of fast travel reminds me of what games used to be like, and how I still find retro gaming much more rewarding than modern gaming.
I think fast travel ruins a lot of games, though, so I'm pretty biased. BotW and TotK come to mind especially. Being able to fast travel to every shrine, tower, dungeon, etc. trivializes the beautiful world, in my opinion. I think they should have made fast travel only to the towers, but that's a discussion for another thread.
@Bolt_Strike i disagree - I don’t want a remaster to be a “new” game. I want it to be the game I remember. It should look “the same as I remember” - which means it needs to be improved significantly but in line with the original design.
This is exactly what happened with Metroid Prime.
But you admitted the game's improvements were subtle. If they're subtle, that's not really a "significant" improvement, so why spend $60 on that? It'd be better to just have an NSO version of the original instead of opting for a remake/remaster (for the gamer I mean, Nintendo benefits more from this, but the gamer does not).
I really don't think you can significantly improve a game without improving the original design. The original design is just far too central to the experience and recycling it means you're mainly going to the same places and doing the same things. Not much wiggle room for improvements if you're keeping that the same. Maybe you could add optional content, but that was never Metroid's style so restricting it to the same design basically dooms it to feel like the improvements are insignificant.
As to Metroidvania design principles more generally - I don’t generally like fast travel since I think it’s usually contrary to the design of a good Metroidvania (although I “get” why people want it and it is sometimes necessary for larger maps). Part of the appeal of the genre is constantly walking through a “boring” space many times and later passing through it in a different way with different skills.
Fast travel robs you of that. It makes a game feel very different.
Combine it with a marking map and you don't have that issue, you can mark an area that you know requires a later upgrade and remember to come back later when you have it. That removes the boring part of Metroidvanias and trims the fat.
Auto save - as in “checkpoints” rather than a hard save - don’t fundamentally change the game IMO. You still need to find the save points, you just aren’t as harshly punished for choosing the “wrong” path and accidentally missing a save station (which I personally find happens more often in the Prime games than 2d Metroidvania games).
Checkpoints are a specific type of auto save, not another name for them. Some auto saves ARE hard saves.
The odd isolated “corridor” area late game is just part and parcel of the genre too. I don’t think it’s a design flaw - it’s almost baked into the genre. You have near enough the full skill set and you won’t be revisiting many times so those areas start to function like more traditional levels. They usually aren’t as memorable as earlier areas (or dedicated linear action games).
They don't need to go to that extreme. They can have several powerups located there and have you backtrack to another part of the level when you get a new one, while they make the enemies tough enough to provide a challenge (while keeping the last powerup strong enough to dispatch them easily). The corridor design detracts from the exploration and should really only be reserved for endgame areas like Impact Crater, Phaaze, or Tourian, not penultimate areas like Phazon Mines, Pirate Homeworld, or Maridia where you're still looking for the last few powerups.
The very late game scavenger hunt is a waste of time to make the game go on longer - I’d agree on that - but it does have some value.
I never mentioned the scavenger hunts and I like that part, it gives you one last opportunity to comb through the game at full power and demonstrate just how far you've come. I'm only concerned about the linearity of penultimate areas.
But you admitted the game's improvements were subtle. If they're subtle, that's not really a "significant" improvement, so why spend $60 on that? It'd be better to just have an NSO version of the original instead of opting for a remake/remaster (for the gamer I mean, Nintendo benefits more from this, but the gamer does not).
The improvements are significant in their undertaking but they are subtle in their effect. Side by side you can see that this is not just an AI upscaling of textures and a higher resolution. So yes - it's both subtle and significant at the same time.
As to whether it's worth the asking price - that's a different question. I personally don't subscribe to the view that just because a game is old that it inherently loses value. A great game is a great game and I'd rather that they have a value than become worthless. I'm also realistic though - some games are great but aren't really palatable to a modern audience without some edges sanding off. In some (but not all) cases I'd rather pay for that process to be done sensitively than to have the sanding done by save states and rewind (as the NES and SNES NSO apps do).
I really don't think you can significantly improve a game without improving the original design. The original design is just far too central to the experience and recycling it means you're mainly going to the same places and doing the same things. Not much wiggle room for improvements if you're keeping that the same. Maybe you could add optional content, but that was never Metroid's style so restricting it to the same design basically dooms it to feel like the improvements are insignificant.
Yes - the original design is part of the appeal. You might have played the original game to death but a large minority (if not an actual majority) of Switch owners weren't even born when Metroid Prime was released. It didn't need the wheel reinventing - it just needed the graphics bringing in line with modern expectations and a few rough edges sanding down (in this case the controls).
Combine it with a marking map and you don't have that issue, you can mark an area that you know requires a later upgrade and remember to come back later when you have it. That removes the boring part of Metroidvanias and trims the fat.
I disagree - the "dangling fruit" of "oh I need to come back later in the game when I have the double jump/super missiles etc." is a key feature of Metroidvania games of course and these can be marked on maps but the very best Metroidvania games have unexpected power-ups that recontextualise the map/obstacles in very different ways that couldn't be anticipated when you first pass through a space (or even the 10th time you pass through that space).
It is a difficult balancing act. The gravity of the genre almost sets up a maximum map size and game length.
Checkpoints are a specific type of auto save, not another name for them. Some auto saves ARE hard saves.
I know - this is what I described. Soft auto-saves at checkpoints (entrance to a room etc.) supported by hard saves at save stations would have been a good compromise. It is something that would have improved the game without significantly impacting its balance or risk/reward too much (IMO). Metroid Dread uses such a system.
The improvements are significant in their undertaking but they are subtle in their effect. Side by side you can see that this is not just an AI upscaling of textures and a higher resolution. So yes - it's both subtle and significant at the same time.
The effect is what matters, the effect is what the consumer sees and determines the value to the consumer. So if the effect is subtle, it largely defeats the purpose of recreating the game from scratch.
As to whether it's worth the asking price - that's a different question. I personally don't subscribe to the view that just because a game is old that it inherently loses value. A great game is a great game and I'd rather that they have a value than become worthless. I'm also realistic though - some games are great but aren't really palatable to a modern audience without some edges sanding off. In some (but not all) cases I'd rather pay for that process to be done sensitively than to have the sanding done by save states and rewind (as the NES and SNES NSO apps do).
It has nothing to do with how old the game is, it has to do with how it compares to a more modern game that is the standard for content and value. For example, a game like OoT, while great for its time, does not compare to a massive open world game like BotW or TotK. It's far smaller and far more linear, so that would naturally raise questions of why they would be charging the same amount if they tried selling an OoT remaster for $60. Now as for Metroid Prime, it's a little trickier because there's not much to compare to in terms of modern 3D Metroidvanias, but you can imagine Prime 4 is probably going to be significantly bigger as well and have a lot more QoL features and improvements, so perhaps $60 is a bit much. I'm personally not as bothered by this with Metroid Prime for now
Yes - the original design is part of the appeal. You might have played the original game to death but a large minority (if not an actual majority) of Switch owners weren't even born when Metroid Prime was released. It didn't need the wheel reinventing - it just needed the graphics bringing in line with modern expectations and a few rough edges sanding down (in this case the controls).
Okay first of all, I don't think the design changes require a reinvention of the wheel. Just a few new sections added here and there, mostly to Magmoor Caverns and Phazon Mines.
Second, the changes aren't just for the people who've played it before. Younger players who never played this game would probably want similar changes too. Several of these issues would stick out to younger players on their first time through the game, so some of the design and QoL changes would bring the game more in line with the more modern experiences they're used to.
I disagree - the "dangling fruit" of "oh I need to come back later in the game when I have the double jump/super missiles etc." is a key feature of Metroidvania games of course and these can be marked on maps but the very best Metroidvania games have unexpected power-ups that recontextualise the map/obstacles in very different ways that couldn't be anticipated when you first pass through a space (or even the 10th time you pass through that space).
It is a difficult balancing act. The gravity of the genre almost sets up a maximum map size and game length.
It would be ideal to have such a powerup, but not always feasible. And DEFINITELY not in a remaster where older fans already know what to expect or one where you can just scan anything to see what you need to clear that obstacle.
But even if you are able to include such a powerup, a marking map and fast travel should still be necessary features of any Metroidvania in this day and age. There's a far wider variety of games today so if a player gets bored, they'd be more inclined to drop the game and play something else, and repetition increases boredom. Trimming the fat is absolutely necessary to keep players engaged with the game. Even if they get a wild powerup that interacts with the world in a way they don't expect, they should still be able to go straight for the dangling fruit that they do expect.
@yoshi420 I guess Metroid: Samus Returns is "ludacris" then because that already had fast travel. Really I'm kinda mad that Dread and Prime Remastered didn't, they kind of needed it (Prime Remastered especially needed it for that stretch between Flaaghra and the adult Sheegoth, traveling back and forth through Magmoor Caverns for that was incredibly tedious and dull).
I fell i suck. Lost 5 times to that big plant snd all that backtracking kinda too much. Should i restart on easy? My first game like that
That depends, did you lose because you didn't know how to beat it or because you just couldn't? If the former, maybe look that up, if the latter, maybe consider changing to easy mode.
Navigating between solar panels on time seems kinda too hard but still im a noob
If I could give some advice, the easiest (or at least quickest imo) way to do that is to stay locked on to the boss and just try to jump left or right while staying locked until you circle around and have the solar panel between you and the boss so you can naturally charge beam the panel.
Also aiming at that red dots is so very hard 2. No autolock workin on these things and i struggle like hell. Sometimes dying on my way to him through this toxic hell hole where grass is even dealing dmg uh
I hate when nostalgia makes games overhyped. Literally nothing speciall until that boss. He looked cool, and thats the only 1 interesting thing Ive experienced in 7hrs gamplay last days being frustration.
I loose in Donkey Kong i dont feel unfair and lack of autosave here is absurd unfair lazy and ass
Seriously. If you're not good at it play some Splatoon. Don't replace using right analog for camera and turning. Only use gyro for aiming to shoot, while simultaneously using right analog for wider turns as needed. You should only ever need small wrist movements.
Also, when locked on, double tapping jump while moving left or right makes you strafe dodge. Use it constantly.
If the game doesn't suit your modern tastes that's fine. Just know the majority of the fan base considers this one of the greatest games ever made. Including myself. Doesn't mean you have to feel the same. If it's not for you, stop playing and go grab another game.
Psalms 22:16 (1,000 yrs before Christ)
They pierced My hands and feet
Isaiah 53:5 (700 yrs before Christ)
He was pierced for our transgressions
Not for me. Probalby only for fans since old intendos. Cant imagine anyone can enjoy it w/o nostalgia it feels like a ps3 game oly controlls are even worse. Like, gameplay really. Most important thing.
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