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Topic: Doom 1, 2, 64 + 3

Posts 41 to 60 of 75

SKTTR

If they redo Doom 64's soundtrack in FLAC format, it would significantly enlarge the file size.
Doom 64 had one tune per stage, the game had 30+ stages, and each tune is approx. 10-18 minutes.
And yeah it's crazy how all that music fit into 7MB next to the game.

Edited on by SKTTR

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Coach_A

60fps update (plus more) now live for Doom 1 and 2

Coach_A

Ralizah

DOOM looks and feels great in 60fps. I'm glad I waited. Although I detest how labyrinthine most of these levels are, and how enemies keep popping out of the walls behind me. Also still find it a bit hard to adjust to a game where you can shoot an enemy at almost any height if they're properly aligned along the gun's X-axis.

I'm in the middle of Episode 3 (played through the previous two episodes the last few days) on "Hurt Me Plenty," and it is a surprisingly grueling experience at times.

One thing I found interesting, given the age of the game, was how the enemies will sometimes start fight one-another. It's very cool when it happens, and makes them feel a bit more real. You wouldn't expect cooperation among demons.

Ralizah

Silly_G

I wish we had the option to toggle between frame rates as I hate the forced 60fps for a game of this age. It's really jarring, and I have been playing DOOM since the mid-90s, so I'm used to playing the game a certain way, and the rigid movements of the monsters and projectiles doesn't lend itself well to 60fps, at least in my experience. Strangely enough, the in-game transitions aren't rendered in 60fps.

The new weapon-swapping options are very much welcome, and add-ons make these ports even better value for money for those sitting on the fence. I just think it's weird that they have split the add-ons between DOOM I and II, with SIGIL being exclusive to DOOM, and No Rest For the Wicked being exclusive to DOOM II, which is fair enough as they pertain to the IWADs of those respective games, but Final DOOM is included in both versions (and Final DOOM is comprised of two DOOM II IWADs), and Final DOOM contains a number of assets that don't exist in DOOM I.

From my brief session last night, they have fixed the misattributed sound effects too, which is good.

BUT... they have essentially removed one save slot to function as the new "Quick Save/Load" feature instead of just adding an additional save slot, which is an annoyance.

It seems that whenever Bethesda takes one step forward with these ports, they take another step back, as they either remove features or introduce new bugs with each new patch.

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Silly_G

Ralizah wrote:

One thing I found interesting, given the age of the game, was how the enemies will sometimes start fight one-another. It's very cool when it happens, and makes them feel a bit more real. You wouldn't expect cooperation among demons.

They don't cooperate though, they merely retaliate when harmed, and there is a fun map in DOOM II, map 20: Gotcha, which gives the player the opportunity to cause a duel between a Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind.

The three zombie men can harm and retaliate against one another, as well as Lost Souls, but other enemies are immune to each other's attacks, including mutual immunity between Barons of Hell and Hell Knights (who fire the same projectiles).

Enemies will also not retaliate against the Archvile, however, the Archvile will attack any demon that harms it (and then proceed to lovingly resurrect it )

Pain Elementals can retaliate against demons, but other demons cannot retaliate against the Pain Elemental as it fires Lost Souls, which are not considered a projectile for the purposes of a demon detecting that they have been hit by somebody else.

For technical reasons, I think about 27 (give or take) Lost Souls can be present on a map at any given time (and this cap persists in these ports), and Pain Elementals will merely repeat the spawning animation without generating any Lost Souls. Amusingly, there is a level early on in DOOM II that, in the higher difficulties, contains a number of Pain Elementals, but due to the presence of Lost Souls elsewhere on the map, are rendered completely harmless.

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Ralizah

@Silly_G Right. That was my point. The in-fighting makes the demons feel more like feral animals or monsters than mere enemies designed to harass and destroy the player.

Just recently, I saw a pretty cool fight between a Baron and a Cacodemon. I took the opportunity to take some potshots at the Baron while it was fighting. Between the demon and a few of my shotgun shells softening it up, it didn't take long to fell it.

I imagine the framerate is probably jarring for someone used to the way the game used to perform. It's quite pleasingly smooth for a new player like myself, though.

Ralizah

Silly_G

@Ralizah : My issue that they have suddenly imposed 60fps rather than giving us the option to choose as the frame rate was more comparable to the original DOS versions until this update.

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Ralizah

@Silly_G There's definitely no reason not to give the player the option to toggle the framerate. I'm happy with the update, but options are always better.

Ralizah

the8thark

Are Doom and Doom 2 worth getting on Switch?

I ask this because they are great games and a good(ish) price. But are these good ports of the game. To that end I have a few questons about the ports, can any one answer them?

1. Do the medkits have the red cross, the green cross or the pill on them?
2. Do these ports have correct screen aspect ratio so the game looks as it should?
3. Do the update patches fix the incorrect pitches and speed of the music and sound effects present in the original release of the Switch ports of DOOM and DOOM 2?
4. Does Nightmare mode have respawning monsters and fast monsters properly implemented? That includes turbo pinkys and fast projectiles. I don't do nightmare mode but still nice to know if it's properly included.
5. Are the Switch ports just the BFG Edition ported with all it's flaws or is this a port of the original release?
6. I have heard these games include Episode 4 and 5 for DOOM (Thy Flesh Consumed and Sigil) as well as Plutonia and TNT Evilution? I heard Bethesda added some of these in in a later patch, is this correct?
7. Does the gameplay feel as it should for the vanilla DOOM experience?
8. Are Map 31 and Map 32 of DOOM 2 censored in any way?
9. How is the new 60fps option implimented from the recent patch? Is it only 60fps or is there also an option for the original release's framerate as well?
10 Can you impliment fast monsters and other cheats into the other difficulty levels like you could in the original PC releases of DOOM and DOOM 2?
Thank you in advance.

the8thark

the8thark

Silly_G wrote:

For technical reasons, I think about 27 (give or take) Lost Souls can be present on a map at any given time (and this cap persists in these ports), and Pain Elementals will merely repeat the spawning animation without generating any Lost Souls. Amusingly, there is a level early on in DOOM II that, in the higher difficulties, contains a number of Pain Elementals, but due to the presence of Lost Souls elsewhere on the map, are rendered completely harmless.

The number is 20. It's hardcoded into the game. Also I do remember watching a playthrough of DOOM 2 on youtube and they hit the 20 limit on Barrel's o Fun. It can happen on any level if you let them spawn enough Lost Souls. But tge limit reached at the start of the map, yeah I don't remember whoch map that is. Possibly map 4, but I don't remember. But you are right there I do remember that happening someplace in the game.

I still have no idea why the Lost Souls don't count towards the kill count. it's not a Pain Elemental thing as they didn't count also in DOOM 1. Though with Pain Elementals in DOOM 2, it makes good sense for the Lost Souls to stay not counting to the kill count.

Edited on by the8thark

the8thark

Silly_G

the8thark wrote:

1. Do the medkits have the red cross, the green cross or the pill on them?

They were displaying the pill until the most recent update, which now displays a green cross.

the8thark wrote:

2. Do these ports have correct screen aspect ratio so the game looks as it should?

The games were originally rendered in 320x200, so the 16:10 aspect ratio will display the sprites as intended. I don't understand why some people are insistent that the games are supposed to be played in 4:3 as round objects appear to be oval, and Doomguy's face in the HUD looks smooshed (the face will appear as it is supposed to as per programmed into the game when displayed at 16:10).

I have worked on mods years ago, so I feel pretty well acquainted with how the sprites ought to look.

the8thark wrote:

3. Do the update patches fix the incorrect pitches and speed of the music and sound effects present in the original release of the Switch ports of DOOM and DOOM 2?

I believe so. Apparently the software has been updated so that the music is now rendered natively from the MIDI sources. There is also the option to restore the variable pitches of sound effects from earlier builds of the DOS version (this was default until the most recent update where it is now optional). I am not an audiophile by any stretch of the imagination, so I cannot attest to whether the music is played at the correct pitch with the most recent update, however.

the8thark wrote:

4. Does Nightmare mode have respawning monsters and fast monsters properly implemented? That includes turbo pinkys and fast projectiles. I don't do nightmare mode but still nice to know if it's properly included.

Respawning monsters and fast projectiles, yes; fast pinkies, no.

the8thark wrote:

5. Are the Switch ports just the BFG Edition ported with all it's flaws or is this a port of the original release?

They are closer to the DOS versions, though the forced 60fps rendering as of the most recent update makes it feel more like a source port.

the8thark wrote:

6. I have heard these games include Episode 4 and 5 for DOOM (Thy Flesh Consumed and Sigil) as well as Plutonia and TNT Evilution? I heard Bethesda added some of these in in a later patch, is this correct?

Episode 4 has been included by default since 1995, so I don't understand why there is any doubt as to whether or not it would be included. Episode 4 was added once DOOM was sold at retail (prior to 1995, it was available via direct mail order and possibly download), and was sold as "The Ultimate DOOM". DOOM II, however, was available at retail from the get go.

As of the most recent update, Bethesda have included "Add Ons" which allow for additional WADs to be downloaded. Both DOOM and DOOM II allow you to download the Final DOOM WADs, strangely (as they contain DOOM II assets), while SIGIL is exclusive to DOOM, and No Rest For The Living is exclusive to DOOM II. No other WADs are available at the time of writing.

the8thark wrote:

7. Does the gameplay feel as it should for the vanilla DOOM experience?

For the most part, yes. Only those who have been playing the games for the last 26 years from their original DOS iterations would likely notice any differences.

the8thark wrote:

8. Are Map 31 and Map 32 of DOOM 2 censored in any way?

They were completely censored (replacing the Nazi guards with zombie men) in previous versions, and lacked any Nazi imagery whatsoever (having been replaced with plain textures), however, the most recent version has restored the guards. While the Nazi imagery has been somewhat restored, they have been censored (with the Swastika replaced with more of a triangle shape). They have also removed Hitler's moustache. It's an improvement over what it was before, but the edits are still pretty stupid considering that the only countries that would take exception to the content are Germany and Austria.

the8thark wrote:

9. How is the new 60fps option implemented from the recent patch? Is it only 60fps or is there also an option for the original release's framerate as well?

The original release's framerate would be virtually impossible to replicate as it would require a display capable of displaying at 70Hz (and this would cause compatibility issues with many TVs and monitors that no longer display at such frequencies). However, previous versions rendered at what I would guess was 30fps, and felt very close to the original FPS in the DOS versions, however, the most recent update renders the game at 60fps with no option to toggle otherwise, unfortunately. The change in pitch of the music in earlier versions could perhaps be attributed to the fact that the games were running a little slower than the originals.

the8thark wrote:

10. Can you implement fast monsters and other cheats into the other difficulty levels like you could in the original PC releases of DOOM and DOOM 2?

You can select from a range of cheat codes at any time during gameplay. No clipping and a few other less frequently used cheats are not supported. There is no option for fast monsters and the like, however, cheats are supported in the Nightmare difficulty (contrary to the official releases).

Edited on by Silly_G

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the8thark

@Silly_G

Thank you very much for answering all these questions. Much appreciated.

It seems I'll notice the differences but the Switch ports from what you've said seem well worth their price. I'll go and get them and try them out. Will be a new experience for me as I've only played DOOM on keyboard only or kayboard and mouse, never with a controller, apart from a few rounds of DOOM 64 back in the day.

I only asked about the cheats, because on PC I was using the fast monsters on lower game difficulties to train myself for it before moving up to Ultra Violence. Not possible on the Switch. That's ok though, thanks for the info.

I will be getting these ports based on your answers.

the8thark

the8thark

Here's a good video by Digital Foundry about the new patches to DOOM and DOOM 2.
Basically they say the games are worth getting now on console.

the8thark

Elvie

Is Sigil good? I've been hearing mixed opinions about it.

Does it feel like Doom Episode 5 and it is comparable in quality to the original Doom?

Elvie

Silly_G

Elvie wrote:

Is Sigil good? I've been hearing mixed opinions about it.

Does it feel like Doom Episode 5 and it is comparable in quality to the original Doom?

It feels very different to the original DOOM games from a design perspective. There is a lot of emphasis on eerie Satanic imagery, and the maps are more complex and unlike anything from the original DOOM games (including the Final DOOM PWADs).

I was quite impressed by it, and it doesn't seem as impossibly difficult as some have implied (I did a cheat run just to acquaint myself with the maps, and I'll get around to playing it without cheats if I can get around to completing DOOM II and Final DOOM on Switch).

From a design perspective, the maps feel like a significant leap forward when compared to the original PWADs. Ironically, I wouldn't say that it feels like DOOM "Episode 5" simply because of how the design elements are so incongruent when compared to the originals. It feels very much like John Romero designed these levels with more modern design sensitivities/principles in mind. Nevertheless, I'm glad that it was made as it feels like a fresh experience as opposed to being just another set of maps.

What I would have really liked, however, is if they added some new monsters (especially a new boss) and perhaps even a new weapon to the mix in order to breathe new life into the classic DOOM games. The classic DOOM games are every bit as fun now as they were over 25 years ago, but a sequel in the spirit of DOOM II (with some further refinements and baddies) would have had me a hell of a lot more excited than DOOM Eternal, to be perfectly frank.

Edited on by Silly_G

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Elvie

@Silly_G Thanks for the answer. There were some people claiming that Romero's designs were dated and that was the thing I was kinda worried about.

I did watch a video by Romero stating that he wanted to use original Doom assets to keep it in spirit of a "Episode 5" (although, the story revolves around the final boss from Doom II) so that's why nothing new was added.

I hope Romero can do a Sigil style WAD for Doom II, maybe with Peterson on board. Now, his levels were outstanding.

Elvie

the8thark

@Elvie

Imagine you made a DOOM episode in 2019. As in same monsters and weapons and base engine limitations but past that you could add in as much modern coding techniques as you wanted to. That's what Sigil is. I doubt the base 386 and 486 could play Sigil like the can play episodes 1-3.

I would say it really feels like an episode 5. Though it's not as tight knit as 1-3 are. 4 feels a little different and so does 5.

Sigil is great honestly. It's a good episode.
Though just like ep 4, it suffers from coming after DOOM 2. All the new features of DOOM 2 really make it the better game and eps 4 and 5 lack these new features.

A comparison could be to Ion Fury. That's a 2019 build engine game. What if Duke Nukem 3D or Shadow Warrior were made in 2019 still using the build engine? That's what Ion Fury is. A pure build engine game that was not possible to have made in 1998.
Sigil to that end is a DOOM 1 engine game that was not possible to be made in 1994.

Edited on by the8thark

the8thark

Silly_G

the8thark wrote:

Imagine you made a DOOM episode in 2019.

That's exactly what Sigil feels like, and that's precisely what makes it not feel like Episode 5 of the original DOOM. It feels like a map pack made with modern design sensitivities in mind. I love Sigil for what it is, and I respect Romero's position in respect to Sigil being the fifth episode of DOOM, but it feels more like its own thing as opposed to a continuation of Episode 4 and as a precursor to DOOM II considering how intricately designed the maps are when compared to the original PWADs.

And speaking of Ion Fury, they sure are taking their sweet time with the console versions, aren't they?

Edited on by Silly_G

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Elvie

@the8thark Coding techniques? Didn't Romero make Sigil entirely through Doom Builder 2?

I haven't used it very much but I don't recall any point where I had to program anything.

On a separate note, I'm getting hyped up for the re-release of Doom 64. Like Doom Cubed, it went for a atmospheric horror tone but it retained the look and level design of the classics, which makes it the real Doom 3 in my opinion. Not to mention, the quality of life improvements, motion controls, and a bonus epilogue chapter.

Edited on by Elvie

Elvie

the8thark

Elvie wrote:

Didn't Romero make Sigil entirely through Doom Builder 2?

I thought so, but I double checked and yeah that is the case. DB2 didn't exist back in 1994 so someone had to create the new code. In this case it was Pascal van der Heiden who did.

Kind of an ironic name, though - calling your child Pascal.

the8thark

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