@RetroGames I think you're probably in the minority when it comes to reasons to purchase new consoles - I think most sales are primarily driven by quality and quantity of games which is in part enabled by the quality of the hardware. This was also Nintendo's approach until the Wii (NES -> SNES -> N64 -> GC). IMO the switch 2 being a more traditional upgrade is an excellent idea, they have the perfect format, just put some more power behind it because the Switch is laughably weak now.
@everynowandben You are entitled to your opinion, I personally feel like that distinction is arbitrary in nature. For example in BOTW it is, for all intents and purposes, impossible to attain stronger attack and shield stats without killing enemies when playing normally. The details may be different but ultimately you must battle to gain stronger stats just like traditional RPGs. Links power growth as a character is practically indistinguishable from him acquiring progressively stronger weapons. For example, sink 60 hours into BOTW and then attempt to fight enemies using low tier weapons - it is effectively not possible or at least certainly not intended. The game is designed to increase Links power by giving him stronger equipment. I don't know if that makes BOTW an "RPG" but is definitely a similar mechanic to explicit XP in practice.
@everynowandben Just as Chrono Cross's stat upgrades could be considered the equivalent of experience points, it could be argued that spirit orbs are also equivalent to XP. Additionally Link acquires more powerful weapons with higher attack power as he kills more enemies - this could also be considered equivalent to gaining stat upgrades from battle (i.e., increases in weapon and shield stats). I feel you are stretching the definition of experience points to cover all the RPGs that don't have explicit XP but are arbitrarily refusing to do the same for BOTW when it has very similar mechanics.
Thanks for looking at the post. I'm actually using that metric for my own reviews as part of an RPG retrospective series I'm doing, and it is inherently subjective in nature, to a degree at least. My point is that i don't think there is a purely objective measure to determine if a game is an RPG or not because there is no agreed upon definition of what an RPG is or really a single pure common mechanic. I think there are a handful of objective factors to look at to support an ultimately subjective determination.
For instance, I'd argue Zelda 2 is definitely an action RPG die to its inclusion of an XP based levelling system that directly increases character stats and items that increase these stats. I don't think most other Zeldas are RPGs because though they have some character progression (stronger weapons, more heart containers) they have almost purely skill based combat, little to no choice in customizing link, virtually no choice in narratives, and very few explicit statistics.
Again I think BOTW toes the line because it has features such as explicit stats on weapons and armor, a scaling system based on hidden XP obtained by killing enemies (the sort of system pioneered by famous RPGs like the Elder Scrolls), freedom of choice in narrative path (BOTW has a do-anything approach), lots of customization of Link, and combat where the quality of your equipment and the quantity of your consumables (which can be crafted, another RPG staple) is nearly as important as your own personal skill. I could see how in light of all these features some might define it as an action RPG, not just an action-adventure with RPG elements.
@everynowandben You have shown how Zelda is not an RPG based on your artificial categorization of "no XP = not an RPG" but the other poster's point is that a better categorization might be that RPGs require "progression" but it doesn't have to be in the form of XP only. Again for instance Chrono Cross is universally considered an RPG but does not have traditional XP - this flat-out violates your categorization.
I really don't think theres one hard-and-fast rule you can point to that's an accurate litmus test for whether a game is an RPG or not. I think there are a variety of factors such as focus on progression, customization, choice, narrative, dialogue, lore, exploration, etc that make up the core of what an RPG is. Zelda certainly fits some of this criteria , especially BOTW, though again I hesitate to classify it as an RPG outright.
Though i don't claim my categorization approach is the correct one, i have given some thought to it and have posted about it on my blog (not sure if i can link it here, I'll try: https://goodgamersociety.com/the-great-campaign-reference
@everynowandben I don't think there's a rule that says a game must have experience points to be an RPG. There's very little functional difference between BOTW's weapon levels increasing as you kill enemies vs traditional RPG's XP leading to higher attack statistics.
Additionally there are some RPGs that don't have XP. Chrono Cross being the most notable. In any case it's not really experience points (which is just a representation of progression) that makes a game an RPG.
You're right that having RPG mechanics doesn't make a game an RPG but there is really no absolute measure to determine if a game is an RPG or not. So if a game has RPG mechanics, that needs to be considered a factor, among others, in favor of potentially being "an RPG".
@BloodNinja I think I agree with your post 100%. All those factors play into how a game "feels" and because it's not a hard rule, I think factors + "feel" is what determines if a game is really an RPG or not (so it's a bit subjective I believe). I also walked away from BOTW feeling like it was an action-adventure, not an RPG. I just think it's interesting to see these extra mechanics Nintendo took from the traditional RPG genre.
@everynowandben To the above point, I agree with your ultimate outcome (it's probably not an "RPG") but I think the idea that "the weapons and enemies are leveling, not the character" making it less of an RPG is splitting hairs a little bit. Increasingly powerful weapons (and armor exclusively) are primarily designed to make Link himself stronger. Enemies scale to align to Link's power level. These are strong RPG mechanics even if they aren't traditional EXP.
Ultimately it depends how broadly you define "RPG" - broadly Zelda could be considered an RPG, but when you think of the "RPG" genre it probably isn't.
@BloodNinja There are bunch of factors that go into whether a game is an RPG in the video game sense; most RPGs share a handful of these genre factors. Most RPGs have XP and equipment progression (which Zelda does but through items; the kokiri sword in oot does 1 damage, master sword does 2, biggoron 3 or 4 - BOTW even has explicit numbers on the weapons and armor). Some have customizable characters and parties, others don't (JRPGs are generally far more restrictive in customization than western RPGs for instance). Some focus on freedom of choice, others focus on a linear story.
It's a heuristic, there's no "rule" that defines the genre. An RPG doesn't just have to be DND, it can be all over the place. Paper Mario is an RPG. Kingdom Hearts is an RPG. World of Warcraft is an RPG. Mass Effect is an RPG. Disco Elysium is an RPG. Pokemon is an RPG. Fire Emblem is an RPG. Modern Assassin's Creeds are RPGs.
I'm just saying BOTW is the closest Zelda since Zelda II to being an RPG. It has equipment numbers, a hidden EXP system that controls enemy scaling, equipment upgrades, a full inventory system, a quest log, and more. This is very close to something you'd find in an Elder Scrolls game. I'd still define it as an action-adventure but it does have strong RPG elements. Also note there are other adventure-like action games like the Witcher series that are definitely RPGs.
@everynowandben I agree in theory but BOTW actually does have an EXP system behind-the-scenes based on number of enemies killed (each enemy gives a certain amount of EXP) and as this EXP level gets higher, better weapons and stronger enemies appear in the overworld. BOTW blurs the line between action-adventure and RPG heavily in terms of Zelda.
Comments 9
Re: PSA: If You're Into Switch 2 'Leaks', It's The Wild West Out There Right Now
@RetroGames I think you're probably in the minority when it comes to reasons to purchase new consoles - I think most sales are primarily driven by quality and quantity of games which is in part enabled by the quality of the hardware. This was also Nintendo's approach until the Wii (NES -> SNES -> N64 -> GC). IMO the switch 2 being a more traditional upgrade is an excellent idea, they have the perfect format, just put some more power behind it because the Switch is laughably weak now.
Re: Talking Point: Is Zelda An RPG, Or Not?
@everynowandben You are entitled to your opinion, I personally feel like that distinction is arbitrary in nature. For example in BOTW it is, for all intents and purposes, impossible to attain stronger attack and shield stats without killing enemies when playing normally. The details may be different but ultimately you must battle to gain stronger stats just like traditional RPGs. Links power growth as a character is practically indistinguishable from him acquiring progressively stronger weapons. For example, sink 60 hours into BOTW and then attempt to fight enemies using low tier weapons - it is effectively not possible or at least certainly not intended. The game is designed to increase Links power by giving him stronger equipment. I don't know if that makes BOTW an "RPG" but is definitely a similar mechanic to explicit XP in practice.
Re: Talking Point: Is Zelda An RPG, Or Not?
@everynowandben Just as Chrono Cross's stat upgrades could be considered the equivalent of experience points, it could be argued that spirit orbs are also equivalent to XP. Additionally Link acquires more powerful weapons with higher attack power as he kills more enemies - this could also be considered equivalent to gaining stat upgrades from battle (i.e., increases in weapon and shield stats). I feel you are stretching the definition of experience points to cover all the RPGs that don't have explicit XP but are arbitrarily refusing to do the same for BOTW when it has very similar mechanics.
Re: Talking Point: Is Zelda An RPG, Or Not?
@everynowandben Please take a look at the "battle" section here on the Chrono Cross wiki article for more info: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrono_Cross#Gameplay
Thanks for looking at the post. I'm actually using that metric for my own reviews as part of an RPG retrospective series I'm doing, and it is inherently subjective in nature, to a degree at least. My point is that i don't think there is a purely objective measure to determine if a game is an RPG or not because there is no agreed upon definition of what an RPG is or really a single pure common mechanic. I think there are a handful of objective factors to look at to support an ultimately subjective determination.
For instance, I'd argue Zelda 2 is definitely an action RPG die to its inclusion of an XP based levelling system that directly increases character stats and items that increase these stats. I don't think most other Zeldas are RPGs because though they have some character progression (stronger weapons, more heart containers) they have almost purely skill based combat, little to no choice in customizing link, virtually no choice in narratives, and very few explicit statistics.
Again I think BOTW toes the line because it has features such as explicit stats on weapons and armor, a scaling system based on hidden XP obtained by killing enemies (the sort of system pioneered by famous RPGs like the Elder Scrolls), freedom of choice in narrative path (BOTW has a do-anything approach), lots of customization of Link, and combat where the quality of your equipment and the quantity of your consumables (which can be crafted, another RPG staple) is nearly as important as your own personal skill. I could see how in light of all these features some might define it as an action RPG, not just an action-adventure with RPG elements.
Ultimately... RPGs are hard to define.
Re: Talking Point: Is Zelda An RPG, Or Not?
@everynowandben You have shown how Zelda is not an RPG based on your artificial categorization of "no XP = not an RPG" but the other poster's point is that a better categorization might be that RPGs require "progression" but it doesn't have to be in the form of XP only. Again for instance Chrono Cross is universally considered an RPG but does not have traditional XP - this flat-out violates your categorization.
I really don't think theres one hard-and-fast rule you can point to that's an accurate litmus test for whether a game is an RPG or not. I think there are a variety of factors such as focus on progression, customization, choice, narrative, dialogue, lore, exploration, etc that make up the core of what an RPG is. Zelda certainly fits some of this criteria , especially BOTW, though again I hesitate to classify it as an RPG outright.
Though i don't claim my categorization approach is the correct one, i have given some thought to it and have posted about it on my blog (not sure if i can link it here, I'll try: https://goodgamersociety.com/the-great-campaign-reference
Re: Talking Point: Is Zelda An RPG, Or Not?
@everynowandben I don't think there's a rule that says a game must have experience points to be an RPG. There's very little functional difference between BOTW's weapon levels increasing as you kill enemies vs traditional RPG's XP leading to higher attack statistics.
Additionally there are some RPGs that don't have XP. Chrono Cross being the most notable. In any case it's not really experience points (which is just a representation of progression) that makes a game an RPG.
You're right that having RPG mechanics doesn't make a game an RPG but there is really no absolute measure to determine if a game is an RPG or not. So if a game has RPG mechanics, that needs to be considered a factor, among others, in favor of potentially being "an RPG".
Re: Talking Point: Is Zelda An RPG, Or Not?
@BloodNinja I think I agree with your post 100%. All those factors play into how a game "feels" and because it's not a hard rule, I think factors + "feel" is what determines if a game is really an RPG or not (so it's a bit subjective I believe). I also walked away from BOTW feeling like it was an action-adventure, not an RPG. I just think it's interesting to see these extra mechanics Nintendo took from the traditional RPG genre.
@everynowandben To the above point, I agree with your ultimate outcome (it's probably not an "RPG") but I think the idea that "the weapons and enemies are leveling, not the character" making it less of an RPG is splitting hairs a little bit. Increasingly powerful weapons (and armor exclusively) are primarily designed to make Link himself stronger. Enemies scale to align to Link's power level. These are strong RPG mechanics even if they aren't traditional EXP.
Ultimately it depends how broadly you define "RPG" - broadly Zelda could be considered an RPG, but when you think of the "RPG" genre it probably isn't.
Re: Talking Point: Is Zelda An RPG, Or Not?
@BloodNinja There are bunch of factors that go into whether a game is an RPG in the video game sense; most RPGs share a handful of these genre factors. Most RPGs have XP and equipment progression (which Zelda does but through items; the kokiri sword in oot does 1 damage, master sword does 2, biggoron 3 or 4 - BOTW even has explicit numbers on the weapons and armor). Some have customizable characters and parties, others don't (JRPGs are generally far more restrictive in customization than western RPGs for instance). Some focus on freedom of choice, others focus on a linear story.
It's a heuristic, there's no "rule" that defines the genre. An RPG doesn't just have to be DND, it can be all over the place. Paper Mario is an RPG. Kingdom Hearts is an RPG. World of Warcraft is an RPG. Mass Effect is an RPG. Disco Elysium is an RPG. Pokemon is an RPG. Fire Emblem is an RPG. Modern Assassin's Creeds are RPGs.
I'm just saying BOTW is the closest Zelda since Zelda II to being an RPG. It has equipment numbers, a hidden EXP system that controls enemy scaling, equipment upgrades, a full inventory system, a quest log, and more. This is very close to something you'd find in an Elder Scrolls game. I'd still define it as an action-adventure but it does have strong RPG elements. Also note there are other adventure-like action games like the Witcher series that are definitely RPGs.
Re: Talking Point: Is Zelda An RPG, Or Not?
@everynowandben I agree in theory but BOTW actually does have an EXP system behind-the-scenes based on number of enemies killed (each enemy gives a certain amount of EXP) and as this EXP level gets higher, better weapons and stronger enemies appear in the overworld. BOTW blurs the line between action-adventure and RPG heavily in terms of Zelda.