There's a lot of chatter at the moment surrounding the practice of 'loot boxes' and 'pay-to-win' mechanics in video games, so much so that some countries are outlawing these systems outright.
One country that has adopted a hardline stance is Belgium, which is taking steps to ensure that 'pay-to-win' schemes are rooted out of video games, both domestic and mobile. This action has resulted in a dramatic reaction from Nintendo, as it has been announced that services for both Animal Crossing: Pocket Camp and Fire Emblem Heroes – both of which are free-to-play and make extensive use of microtransactions – will end in the region on August 27th this year.
According to NintenDaan – who has kindly translated the original tweet from Nintendo – players will be able to continue using Orbs and Leaf Tickets up until the point the games are pulled. After the services close in August, both games will be removed from app stores in Belgium and will not function. It is also stated that any future games that adopt a similar payment model will not be eligible for release in Belgium.
This news doesn't impact any other European countries, where the games will continue to operate as normal, complete with 'pay-to-win' mechanics. However, should any other nations decide that loot boxes and 'pay-to-win' mechanics are effectively a form of gambling, then we could see these titles (and potentially future ones) get removed.
[source twitter.com, via twitter.com]
Comments 74
How is Pocket Camp pay to win? It's a solo experience.
@TommyTendo They ban everything that has Gambling elements, not exactly p2w.
@TommyTendo Pay to win in the solo experience. The game coerces players to feel that if they want to have a good time, they have to pay up
That was the reasons i never like smartphone games.
Handhelds / consoles all the way.
@Anti-Matter You realise that a lot of games on consoles and handhelds have these same type of mechanics right?
Nobody is forced to pay for microtransaction so this makes no sense, i have never spent a dime on stuff like that yet you'll have these games taken away from you simply because there's gambling games in it.
A lot? Zelda? Mario Odyssey? Dark Souls? Rayman Origins? Yoshi?
For me mobile games = crap with microtransactions
I like that game companies aren’t getting the hint.... instead they’ll milk every region that allows the practise and until enough ban this pay to win and gambling systems that they are forced to change.
I’m sure the “nobody forces you to pay” brigade will be out... they have no idea about addiction, the roots of addictions and what they can lead to. Gambling especially hidden gambling is a gateway to more serious issues. This has been proved over and over with people far more intelligent than those that post on the comments section here. Loot boxes and gambling for children and children/teen focused games is bad enough but it’s bad for all of us .
All micro transactions should be banned in my opinion.
I know you are not forced to buy these things, but a lot of these games make it impossible to play unless you do
You know, Pocket Camp would be in the clear if it weren't for the stupid fortune cookies.
They could release a version in Belgium where you just pay for the contents of them with premium currency but nope. Better to lose that entire market than let the rest of the world peek behind the curtain.
@Stocksy it wouldn't be the game companies fault that others are making irresponsible choices.
its also not thier responsibility to raise these kids either.
Let’s just ban all games
While I totally get and support the denial of escalating microtransactions and especially pay 2 win, I really feel like the two games in question aren't particulary good examples xD
Personally, I have never really spent money on FEH (only one time, and then I actually did it solely to support the game, I didn't even really need the orbs), yet I have 80+ 5* (rarest) characters in that game. And I dare to say that I didn't even get that lucky to be there. I got all of that just through free actions and the many orbs the game supplies you for free (or for your time by legitimately playing the game). Admittedly, they do keep removing more and more regular free orb resources, but still, I feel like it's still acceptable.
My large number of rare resources in that game mostly comes from me regularly playing since launch... but yeah, you can get most of the chars (theoretically even all of them) without spending a penny.
I never played AC Pocket Camp, but as far as FEH goes, I think it's actually pretty fair.
Not to argue in favor of the gambling aspect of it, or to defend the concept, just saying that there's much worse out there, in my opinion.
@DarkLloyd You are also probably not a little kid the games are truly aimed at, and you don't spend your parent's money on lootboxes.
@DarkLloyd that’s ok then. Not sure why any one wants micro transactions or loot boxes????
Apart from those making money from them... why do you feel so strongly that they should exsist?
Sounds like Nintendo might be making a bad decision, here. If other countries follow suit, there'll be a lot of removing, rather than "fixing".
Animal Crossing has previously worked just fine without IAPs, even when it's always FELT like they would suit it absolutely perfectly.
The actual problem, here, is that Mobile users would much rather have a free game, than pay a "proper" price and get everything via ingame methods.
I'm not really sure how to fix that.
Their experiment with a "Premium" Mario Run didn't exactly go down very well.
Modern gaming is very broken!
@Stocksy i don't feel strongly that they should exist in fact i could care less if it was gone
however i am against the removal of a game being removed simply because it has those elements.
i enjoy some of the games that unfortunately happen to have micro, i would be pissed if those games were taken from me due to some bad parenting
@Abeedo I suppose. But it feels good to buy things in games. It's like a rush of endorphins.
I Fully support this move by Belgium!!
You know, Pokémon Go is in thin ice when it comes to lootboxes as it is.
You don't buy lootboxes, but you receive eggs by spinning Poké Stops, opening gifts, or in weekly Adventure Sync rewards based on your walking distance. The contents of these eggs are random with no disclosed rates of what can possibly hatch. The contents also change periodically also typically without notice of what was added or removed.
You are only allowed to hold 9 eggs at a time, the player has a single unlimited use incubator that you use to hatch a single egg.
Hatching an egg requires that you walk real world distance, either 2KM, 5KM, 7KM, or 10KM.
If you want to incubate more eggs at once, you need to buy additional incubators. Incubators break after three uses.
There are two kinds of incubators, regular incubators for 150 coins each, or super incubators for 200 coins, which reduce the walking distance required by one third. These incubators are frequently in sales bundles called boxes, offering a large reduction in cost overall.
Once the egg is hatched, you will receive the Pokémon, along with candies for that Pokémon, and some amount of stardust based on the egg's distance.
In lootbox fashion however, more often than not the hatches are disappointing, and you are encouraged to keep trying.
This is the problem, it's tantamount to buying lottery tickets to keep trying to get a jackpot win. Granted you do not need to buy any incubators to eventually hatch all of the eggs in your limited inventory, but there are in-game events and changes in available Pokémon that encourage you to splurge on more chances to get a good outcome.
Under scrutiny, I think it's very likely that Belgium would restrict this model entirely, and Pokémon Go could suddenly disappear from that country.
I hope p2w and "free to play" games are crushed.
Free to play games should just be free. Like Wolfenstein Enemy Territory.
Hell, there should be a law about paid DLC.
@Stocksy
To Nintendo's credit, they tried with Mario run and failed.
Seriously what pay to win mechanics? Never had to pay to win anything in these two games
@DarkLloyd
Fully agree with you their
Pocket Camp was fine without the fortune cookies, and I think it was a mistake to add them.
@Stocksy
Free to play with micro transactions has 2 distinct advantages.
1. You can play for free. Meaning no forced paywall to get into the game. On mobile most games are free, and a game that costs money (upfront) usually doesn't sell. (See Mario Run)
2. It brings in a lot of money for the publisher.
@RupeeClock It's completely different when no actual real world money is involved in acquiring (or hatching) such "lottery tickets," while the incubators are pretty standard mobile microtransactions that simply exchange money for time, which aren't under scrutiny here. Heck, in this case it can even be considered a good thing if it gets people to exercise more.
@FragRed Yes, but you see less of them. Fortnite doesn’t count.
@Trajan Then the Splatoon 2 Octo Expansion would be banned. Yikes.
This is completely stupid to me.
Mario Run: $0
Animal Crossing: $0
Fortnite: $0 (this isn’t a Nintendo mobile game, but I’ll throw it in.)
You don’t need to p2p ACPM. The game is truly free.
@CobraA1 I forgot about those. You win Belgium. You win.
@Trajan DLC is an expansion of which you KNOW what you are getting with 100% certainty. (Meaning no gambling at all) They won't be able to ban that, otherwise they are also required to ban digital sales of games.
Lootboxes offer a randomized item of varied value. Which would be the same as playing in the lottery.
@FragRed In fact it's more of an issue when they charge you $60 and then demand microtransactions on top of it.
@DarkLloyd it’s nothing to do with bad parenting.
This isn’t the 18/M games should be banned coz kids might get them.
This is about gaming companies using a terrible gaming model. Charge money for the game. It’s a simple fix. No game is reliant on lootboxes or micro transactions to be a good game.
If it’s the micro transactions or loot boxes you enjoy then you are addicted... and have an addictive personality and it’s not your parents fault.
I love unlockables and collectibles in games they have have existed for years and years way before loot boxes and micro transactions
@BulbasaurusRex
I say it's not different.
You aren't paying to get the lottery tickets, you're paying to scratch them, so you can make way for more lottery tickets.
You can't get more lottery tickets if you haven't finished scratching the ones you have, however long that takes.
But what if you can pay more to scratch your tickets quickly, so you can get more tickets? That's precisely the problem here.
The rate you earn coins in Pokémon Go is capped at 50 a day.
You can buy 100 coins for £0.79, you have to spend at least a small amount or play several days just for a single incubator.
The best value boxes cost 1480 coins, and their contents change over time. They've recently introduced boxes that offer some of the best value for incubators and/or raid passes mind you.
If you want the best option, it requires 30 days of diligent play, or around £12 or such depending on the number of coins you buy.
Pokémon Go is also odd in that the smallest option for buying coins is actually better value than the immediate larger options, except for the largest options which are of course the most expensive, but offer the best value.
@sanderev I’d rather pay to play a proper game - there is no point trying to explain why it’s so bad if you don’t get it.
The reason they make loads of money is it’s low hanging fruit. Minimal effort for nearly unlimited returns.
@RupeeClock Pokémon Go probably won’t go away. Hint: Use a gym.
@Rutty_YT
I know what a gym is, and how you can only get 50 coins a day.
The point is that Belgium legislators could look at this one aspect of Pokémon Go, disagree with it, and that the game is pulled from Belgium.
@Stocksy While I agree with you in theory, free-to-play games with microtransactions are such a heavily entranced part of the mobile gaming market that it would be impossible to stop it now.
edit: incorrect reply.
@Stocksy TBH. I'm against lootboxes, but I do see why publishers want them.
@RupeeClock You don't pay to scratch them. You just get some exercise. Yes, you can pay to speed things up, but that's a normal part of mobile microtransactions that's not actually related to the lottery aspect of the eggs. It's no different than paying real money in "Pokémon Rumble World" on 3DS to immediately refuel the balloons so that you can once again quickly try your luck at catching a rare Pokémon.
@RupeeClock But the game does have it’s fair share of lootboxes.(don’t count me on this)
@DarkLloyd nobody is forced to pay for gambling, drugs, prostitution and so on. Yet many countries make some or all of those things illegal. Same here, it's not for those who have no intention of using this thing, it's for those, who are too weak to be preyed upon. Belgium decided that these games are too predatory (maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but they decided thusly).
@BulbasaurusRex
You are paying to scratch more of them more quickly.
The player who chooses to spend real money on this game is able to have 9 eggs in incubators at all time, keeping eggs in circulation and hatching lots of Pokémon.
The player who does not spend money is limited to the coins they earn in gyms, and can hatch far fewer eggs, and get fewer opportunities for a satisfying lootbox pull as a result.
If this loophole isn't acknowledged it enables the addictive behaviour behind chasing a win.
@sanderev He/she didn't say all DLC is bad, just loot boxes and microtransactions.
@Jayenkai There's no way to fix free to play games without completely removing any money gain from the product, that's why removal is picked over fixing and why only the reverse setup happens (one time purchase games becoming FTP). If lots of countries follow Belgium we'll be likely seeing the mobile gaming industry completely collapse.
@RupeeClock In that case, you'd have to ban all free-to-play games, since they all use microtransactions to encourage somewhat addictive time-saving behavior. Belgium (and potentially other countries) is only targeting the major problems behind microtransactions, which are not issues in "Pokémon GO."
@Grumblevolcano Well, it wouldn't collapse. Developers would just have to adjust their mobile games to only use their microtransactions in more acceptable ways that don't involve pay-to-win or direct gambling mechanics. Plenty of free-to-play games already avoid those aspects and as such aren't being banned in Belguim.
Now, if microtransactions would start being banned in their entirety, then yes the mobile market would indeed collapse.
@BulbasaurusRex
Not all microtransactions are bad.
If you look at something like Magikarp Jump, there's currency you can earn in-game at a reduced pace, or you can buy some of this currency to speed things up. If you buy enough of the currency, you then get a daily income of currency forever.
There is no random chance behind these microtransactions, they're used to purchase upgrades and items with clear cause and effect, no gambling is involved, although a level of strategy exists in what the best items and upgrades are.
As opposed to the fortune cookies in Animal Crossing New Leaf, or the Eggs in Pokémon Go. Whilst you can buy the fortune cookies directly (or earn them in-game), or you can pay to hatch the eggs quickly and more often, the result is up to chance.
This is why they're called lootboxes, they come at a premium and you don't know what you're going to get. That's gambling, even if there's a means to participate in these games of chance without spending money initially, you're actively or subliminally encouraged to spend money on these.
Honestly this feels like taking a sledgehammer to something a screwdriver could fix. The issue is not the micro transactions (as insidious as they’ve become I mean i hardly consider £59.99 being “micro”) it’s entirely based about the random chance of what you may get; aka the gambling element. That and many games are specifically designed to entice players to spend money whether it’s by pushing them towards you or designing the game to be slow enough to make you fed up and pay up.
The real targets of these games however are the so called “Whales” and more deplorably, children that know no better and people with addictive gambling tendencies. Yes, parents have a responsibility but companies have a responsibility in designing products expected to be used by children to not prey on childlike tendencies. Gambling is regulated, so this should be too if companies are just gonna let it continue consequences be damned. They could have avoided this by simply making it so that you know what your getting when you spend money. Want a specific item? You can pay for it or grind the currency, but at least you know you’re getting it if you decide to pay up.
I'd argue that FEH isnt pay-2-win. You dont really face another player directly, only AI.
I hope the pressure pushes developers away from these sorts of game design choices. I would celebrate their end.
I've long felt that internet connectivity the worst thing to happen to video games.
It let publishers get lazy and rush out unfinished games with a "we can patch it later" mentality.
It let them nickel and dime customers by relegating content that was traditionally part of a game's original cost to "paid DLC". Modern fighting games are an excellent example of this as they lock characters and costumes behind a paywall rather than unlocking them through normal play. Further, that extends to the free to play games with micro-transactions. Little Johnny's parents may be more inclined to agree to the frequent requests to spend $10 on a microtransaction than they would be to spend $60 on an entire game. This shifts the emphasis away from quality games onto whatever can grab peoples' attention (and money) for some large short term gains.
It eroded the social aspect of gaming. Fewer games feature local multiplayer as the emphasis turned towards online functionality.
So yeah, rock on Belgium. I hope more countries follow suit. Moving away from this micro transaction - loot box - pay2win - paying constantly for a service instead of one time for a game - nonsense goes away. I mean, surely most players realize the only ones helped by that kind of structure are the corporations raking it in hand over fist. It does no favors for us as customers.
My problem is that "Pay to win" is a broad topic, what about games that have DLC that is just there to give you a head start, nobody forces us to buy that, but if they start banning games simply for giving us that option, thats a problem. Even the great Bravely Default has a small hidden away microtransaction. Are they going to ban Bravely Default too?
Technically all games are pay to win, except games that are entirely free. Nobody buys a game to lose.
@BulbasaurusRex agreed but only because we lapped them up stupidly because they appeal to those of us that have addictive personalities which is a high proportion
@sanderev I see too - it’s easy money. Simple repetitive games that are often re-skinned over and over that are designed to make people want to pay over and over with enticing but sparse rewards.... it’s the same reason fruit machines have been massive for years.... it’s gambling, it’s just not honest about it
I'm not bothered. I hate micro transactions.
Just charge me upfront, don't nickle and dime me while I play.
Thumbs up! A very responsible Belgian Government.
Pay to Win is a bit similar to Gambling, even though it is not money that you win, the player could be burning a lot of cash just to try their luck to get that specific item. It's innocent on the outside but evil on the inside. There are alot of these people, they are hidden among us and are ashamed of it.
I am not a lover of the many types of 'loot boxes' or even downloadable content. But I also do no want to live in a 'Nanny state', we are all responsible for our own actions in life!
Wish we could get the same kinds of laws here, much love to Belgium! I'd love to see pay to win one day fully extinguished, though I doubt it will ever happen.
Good. Nintendo needs to learn what its doing isn't any better than any other sleazy free to play monetization just because it's Nintendo
ethics aside, government shouldn't be stepping in like that, it sets a bad precedence.
Yeah there was a similar bill proposed by a lawmaker in the US. The game industry has lost all self control when it comes to micro transactions, so I see no issue with the government stepping in eventually.
@DarkLloyd You are incredibly naive to think like that.
Activision was caught with their pants down last year, when a internal report was leaked to the press, where they described in detail how they hired Phycologists to develop new mechanics in games that target addiction triggers in people to make them spend more money via micro transactions, etc.
You can bet Activision isn´t the only one doing this kind of research, as loot boxes and micro transactions in general are a product of this kind of research.
It´s disgusting and it has gone completely out of hand the last years!
Games are no longer created to be fun, but games are created completely around micro transactions these days instead, with specific addiction triggers to entice people to spend more and more money ingame.
@Jeronan by that logic it should work on me then.
A crazy coincidence. Good Morning America just finished a segment on Fortnite and its effects on kids and their brains.
But back to the article. I'm not necessarily a champion for micro transactions or loot boxes. However, I hesitate to blame them inherently as as the source of someone's issues.
@Stocksy I see your point about addiction. But if we're gonna be real, if it isn't gaming or gambling, it'll be something else. And that's not entirely absolving developers of their practices. But I'm just not ready to villanize the practice in this respect.
I've also had this discussion here when it comes to kids. Again, I don't absolve companies completely from their tactics. And being a parent myself, I get really sensitive when it comes to judging other people's parenting. But it seems to be common sense in this situation. A kid can only have access to micro transactions and stuff like it if a parent is complicit or just isn't paying attention when they should be.
GOOD! Microtransactions and loot boxes are awfull. Cutting then off now well be hard, but think how hard it well be in a year of 5 when they're in even more stuff!
As long as they crack down on those horrifying "LOL Surprise!" dolls in physical vending machines for the same reason.
Nintendo is really cheap here. Just disable orb pucrhes in Belgium and be done with it. And while they are at it they could make some nice bundles that they can sell that are not connected to orbs to still make money off of Belgium players.
They want to shift blame to the Belgium goverment. It is a really s****y move by them.
@DarkLloyd Addiction is a disease and can be genetically inherited, but minor children can also fall victim to it when heavily exposed to it.
That is the kind of people they prey on and why it's so immoral!
There is a reason why gambling is illegal in many countries and/or heavily restricted with strict age limits!
It's just surprising why it took the Authorities this long to finally discover micro transactions and loot boxes in games, even games targeted at children like the vast majority of mobile games.
this is reason gbf only in japan
nah this news don't bother me to much because playing japan version
even for me workaholic adult, mobile game itself is sort entertaiment in break time and can play in anywhere
gacha itself maybe predatory but i don't care because is my sole entertainment for me who work 14 hour/day (well grinding to get all eternal is much rewarding or get legend gala character with my money than playing console or pc game )
This kind of leaves a bittersweet taste in my month. On one hand they are cracking down on a controversial business practice which I like, on the other hand it’s the government controlling what games people can and can’t play.
Maybe I’m just overthinking it since I grew up in a time where politician were trying the same with violent video games, so I'm not too trusting on them making the call.
Good call. Love it.
Good news. Belgium are leading the way.
So, the people who spent money on the game then? Pretty lame to just close up shop instead of say, disabling purchase of loot boxes and continuing to run the game. If I'd paid cash already to develop my profile in one of these games I would be peeved.
@TommyTendo It also feels good when the currency is earned in game. Also that's a bad type of rush that developers exploit. Some kids have spent thousands on microtransactions just for that rush, and ended up in worse condition
Show Comments
Leave A Comment
Hold on there, you need to login to post a comment...