
As regular readers of the site may remember, earlier this year Nintendo found itself in a spot of bother with the Norwegian Consumer Council over its digital pre-order system. Currently, Nintendo refuses to offer cancellations or refunds on pre-orders made through the eShop, even when games are purchased months before their release; the NCC has described this system as "illegal", saying "they have to change how they do things".
Just a few months later in July of this year, the NCC reported Nintendo to German authorities (Nintendo of Europe's home country). It was said that should German authorities side with the NCC, and if Nintendo continued to refuse any change, the matter would eventually be taken to court; Norweigan site PressFire has now reported that this exact sequence of events has indeed occurred.
So what does this mean, exactly? Well, official proceedings are expected to start in around three-to-four weeks, although legal matters such as this can often take a year or more to come to any sort of conclusion. Until then, we won't know whether or not any changes will be forced upon the gaming giant.
Nintendo has reportedly cited article 16 of European Consumer Law Directive 2011/83 in its defence, saying that it doesn't have to offer cancellation if "the performance has begun with the consumer's prior express consent, and with the acknowledgement that he will lose his right of withdrawal once the contract has been fully performed by the trader", but similarly, there's no knowing whether or not this will suffice in court.
We'll make sure to keep you updated on this story as it develops. In the meantime, feel free to let us know your thoughts on the matter in the comments below. Do you mind the lack of a cancellation option on the eShop?
[source eurogamer.net, via pressfire.no]
Comments 136
I don't get it. Why can't we pr-order games on the eshop.wow
Please understand....
Another day, another legal proceeding for corporate lawyers
Oh brother this again? Who pre-orders on the eshop anyway? I always pre-order on amazon months in advance.
@MysticGengar It doesn't affect you so this isn't really a problem?
I really don't see why they shouldn't offer a refund option
The lack of a refund option is the sole reason why I still buy physical Switch games over digital.
You pay for the games in advance anyways so that come release date you just have download a small update to play the game, hence it's not considered a preorder. Honestly if you decide to go that route it means you are getting the game. So I don't understand why this is an issue. How can Nintendo guarantee that someone doesn't just keep the game and get their money back through an online shop? Curious because I don't see how this would work.
While I think it’d be a nice option to cancel and be refunded a digital preorder that hasn’t released, the fact that it states that’s not an option prior to purchase makes this kind of silly.
I’d imagine this is more of a poorly executed business decision than an illegal act. But maybe I just don’t get it.
I’ve never digitally preordered something
"the performance has begun with the consumer's prior express consent, and with the acknowledgement that he will lose his right of withdrawal once the contract has been fully performed by the trader"
The problem is, the eshop forces this on you. If you want to buy something you have to waive your right upon buying.
@Audigore0733
The problem stems not for being able to make preorder, but from not be able to withdraw from the contract. For example, if you preordered a game, but want to reconsider, you can't do that currently on the eshop. This is where the lawsuit is aiming at.
@JackEatsSparrows I’d imagine this is more of a poorly executed business decision than an illegal act. But maybe I just don’t get it.
You just don't get it, it's illegal hence the lawsuit.
Haha, pre-ordering digitial releases.
I digitally purchased Dark Souls Remastered based purely off of its stellar reviews, hype, and price of $40. Sadly, I've come to regret that purchase so much - in my opinion, that game is so overhyped in so many ways - terribly clunky controls, horrible graphics, and battles that are annyoyin/boring, mostly due to the aforementioned controls being so bad.
Needless to say, after giving the game a week of trying to enjoy it, I didn't. So I wanted my $40 back. That it's not possible is terrible.
I generally like digital more than physical now due to not needing to swap out carts, but this is making me change my mind on that.
@IHateTombs but Nintendo is in the right with the fact another law says its legal, Nintendo states which law its even in this article.
Dear people: don't pre-order digital games. It's a scam as much as gambling and it exploits your impulse to buy on a whim before you really make up your mind (and before you have enough information to make up your mind). The eShop won't run out of digital copies, so there's no need to reserve yours (for full price and with no going back) weeks in advance.
So you can't get a refund through the eShop for a game you pre-purchased and pre-downloaded, but change your mind before the game releases as well? If no, then I'd say their case has legs at least against Nintendo. Interesting.
@Steel76 Honestly, all game dev companies should have to create demos for their games, that would protect the consumer more, if not you have to steal the game first to see if you like it which some people frown upon.
Uh... I don't think this will bother me in the US because I live in the US. So I'm neutral on this.
I rarely preorder anything and tend to go the physical route due in part to situations like this. Even for those who do preorder digitally however, I do believe there should be an option to cancel it anytime before release. One's financial situation can change in that period of time, so they may need that money for another purpose.
@spizzamarozzi Many devs, especially Indies, offer preorder discounts on the EShop. And for larger games, being able to play them immediately without waiting for a download is a big draw.
So there are incentives, just a matter of how much those two things matter to you.
@NinChocolate Yeah, but this is justified
Nintendo can´t hide behind that article, since the performance begins when the game launches!
They try to spin it that processing a pre-order is the start of the performance, but that won´t hold in court!
A digital game is still a product and as long the product is not being delivered and in this case not playable, the performance has not begun!
It´s just stupid as hell on Nintendo´s part they act this way. :-/
It´s the sole reason I won´t pre-order in the eShop, since I should be allowed to change my mind. Maybe I end up wanting to buy the physical edition instead or just buy a different game.
Why one earth are people pre-ordering digitally anyway?
That's the next step beyond Gamestop offering a "guaranteed" copy of CoD if you pre order it. In spite of thousands being available the day of.
This has to do with how Nintendo pays those on the eShop. Likely a more responsive pay also includes shutting out a return policy. Also likely why so many people are on a port frenzy to Nintendo's system.
If you have a return policy, chances are there is withholding of funds till they "play their hours" or has some form of down payment to Nintendo. Neither is appetizing to a budding developer.
@Pokefanmum82 Pretty simply. If someone gets a refund, they revoke the license on the eshop, and the patch to play the game won't download.
@Paraka There is one and only one reason to preorder digitally. I did it for Smash (by a day, but still) because I was having a release day 'party' where we were playing previous Smashes and played Ultimate when it launched. But unless you know you're going to buy a game no matter what, and have a reason to want it the moment it's available, it's not worth it. Haven't done it with any other game prior, and probably won't again on the Switch.
@Indielink yeah, that depends on how smart of a consumer each individual is. Would you trade one fundamental consumer right (changing your mind once you gather enough information on the product) for a small discount and the luxury to play a game 5 hours before somebody else who didn't pre-order?!
The fact alone that a company is willing to offer their game on a "pre-order discount" says a lot about the quality of the game and the confidence of the developers. What, they want you to buy it before you find out it stinks?!
I personally love digital pre-orders. I can download the game and its icon now to my Switch desktop, and it sits there among my other games as if I already have it. It would be like pre-ordering a physical game, then your copy arrives, and you can admire the box among all your other games, you just can't play it until release date. I digitally preordered ToeJam and Earl last night; it's now loaded onto my Switch along with the rest of my game collection, sitting there waiting to play. It's glorious!
Been waiting for this as I’d not seen any change in their policies. You have to have some kind of cancellation or refund policy. Just stating you can’t get a refund doesn’t mean it’s legal. I love Nintendo but I hate that it still does these kind of things here and there. With a customer base as loyal as Nintendo fans why not be a bit more pro consumer about it. Look after those who look after you.
At the very least an option should be available to cancel the pre-order and get eshop credit instead
@IHateTombs - Dont imply I was defending Nintendo, but I mused over what and why it could lead to such a policy to begin with. One end would suggest red tape, and honestly the more I think of it, the more it makes sense.
But none of those reasons are really genuine. If you're getting a discount on a game that isn't good or that important in the long run, they have sales and they never run out of stock. Most of these reasons aren't predatory and just farts in the wind.
Not saying Nintendo is okay with doing this (it is very anti-consumer), but being honest with ourselves saving 2 dollars on a pre-order of Putty Pals isnt exactly what you can justify.
Remember: NO PREORDERS
Pre-ordering a digital game is such an alien concept to me. Makes no sense to do it in the first place.
"Once the contract has been fully performed by the trader" should mean "once the trader has supplied the product", not "once the trader has received the payment". The contract and transaction cannot be seen as completed if both parties have not given the other what the contract states: in this case for the consumer the payment, and for the supplier the product.
Here’s an idea. Don’t buy games that you don’t want.
Let's be brutally honest here, if somebody is dumb enough to preorder a digital product they deserve to be punished. I understand pre-ordering a limited physical item but digital? Come on, its gonna be available 'forever'. Nintendo has always been somewhat on the thrifty/greedy side, though.
@NewAdvent You are absolutely wrong and you have certainly not the slightest idea of what you are talking about. THERE IS a refund option and it lasts 14 days AFTER you purchase the game. Go to your Nintendo e-mails and scroll down at the end to find out what you missed.
Yeah, if you can’t allow for canceling preorders, something probably needs to get adjusted. ...Would have been nice for Nintendo to have fixed this within the past 6 months.
Nothing wrong with having a refund policy Nintendo. It does wonders for customer peace of mind and goodwill. Besides, you can pretty much be safe knowing if they refund a preorder, they didn't get to play the game first and THEN refund it lol.
@Crono1973 Well, that's not entirely true. The NCC claims it is illegal, and are filing suit based on that claim. A court hasn't actually declared it as such yet.
Either way, this really sounds like a matter of interpretation for the law cited in the PressFire link. The current law seems just ambigous enough to allow a company wiggle room until it's tested.
That's pretty poo poo and anti consumer of Nintendo. They are going to lose this one for sure.
Just don't pre-order unless you're absolutely sure you want the game. It's not like there are copies going anywhere on a digital shop. Oh well.
I don't even preorder physical games through stores, let alone digitally. It seems like a losing bet. I've bought games that I've regretted even after reading reviews and such; I can only imagine feeling far worse if I let hype convince me to buy a game before finding out from reviewers (both pro and casual) whether the game was worthwhile.
But I do agree Nintendo needs to at least implement a Steam-like refund policy.
I do not know since I only used the eShop once for Bloodstained Ritual of the Moon but is there a special disclaimer that you can't get a refund event if the game you have pre-ordered is not yet released?
Actually even if there is such disclaimer it is stupid practice.
Nice to see this happening. It makes me hope Nintendo will one day take a page from Valve's book and actually offer digital refunds. I would be much more confident preordering games if I knew I had the option to return them should they be crap on launch day.
@Audigore0733 My assumption is you didnt read it an neither did the 2 people that liked your comment. The issue isnt the preorder, the issue is that Nintendo refuse to refund preorders when people want to cancel them which is very much against consumer rights.
I totally agree that someone should be able to cancel a pre order and get their money back if they change their mind before the games release. But on the other hand, why the hell would anyone pre order from the eShop!? It’s not like they’re going to run out of stock on release day.
it's perfectly legal. It's legal under the european law eyes, is legal under the american law eyes and is legal under the international law eyes. In other words, not even a case.
@spizzamarozzi There is no need to insult peoples' intelligence. Plenty of very good games on the EShop have received pre launch discounts, Guacamelee 2 and Gris for instance. Heck in the case of Guac 2, it was already released to great reviews on PS4. If you know a game is gonna be good, why not take advantage of a small discount?
@MysticGengar Pre-downloads that come with preordering are nice especially when you just want to play the game upon release and not have to drive to a store or wait for a package.
So no more eshop preorders in Norway, then? Doesn't that fix things? I doubt Nintendo would lose much by doing that, and they wouldn't have to deal with going to court. I do think refunds make sense, but I also see no point whatsoever in preordering an eshop game more than a day in advance. The only value is having the game downloaded a bit sooner.
@NewAdvent
Isn't 30% the standard?
Is this only Nintendo?
So Nintendo is saying it’s not possible to speak of a cancellation because the consumer has already received the product or “performance” in part (ie. the game icon on the Switch and the unplayable version of the game). It seems to me that Nintendo could lose this on account of them calling it a PRE-order. I think technically “preorders” are always supposed to imply a possibility of cancellation in most European countries.
@GammaPhonic For me, it's primarily because digitally preordered games can usually be preloaded, which means I can play them as soon as they unlock.
Moreover, I'm not tempted to spend the money on something else.
And sometimes, like with Smash, there are small financial incentives to preorder, such as getting 5% more back on the purchase.
Has anyone said 'Neintendo' yet?
No?
Ok, I'll say it then.
Neintendo.
Thanks.
@Crono1973 "The dead celebrity isn't your family, why are you sad?" "The missing dog isn't yours, why are you sad?" "These looted groceries aren't yours, why are you upset?"
That's you. That's how you sound with this baloney.
Consumer laws are way different between the East, North America, the UK, the EU (and within said EU) and Oz and NZ. Per instance, Minimum Advertised Price contracts are uniquitous in the US, as a protection to small retailers, incentive to compete with customer service, and to protect the perceived value of a brand/product. While in the UK, that practice is considered price fixing under law.
On the flipside, you’ve got fifty states, and a dozen territories in the USA, all with their own laws.
So, in a nutshell this sort of thing happens every day when doing business globally.
Consumers should fight for a refund option in digital media, not only for pre-orders but even for regular ordering. The procdure which Steam pursues is good model for all other platform.
Here's my take and it shouldn't take rocket scientist to see why this works.
"Pre-orders digital or physical should be able to cancel before the release date and refund them. Simple enough. Limitation should be limited to time sensitive item that ship before release date. But then that should be clearly stated in the purchase and buyer email notified."
@Jokerwolf
Reviews. Gameplay videos. I think it's pretty simple nowadays. I mean, I buy lots of games and I don't even remember when was the last time I bought a game that I didn't like, because I actually research my purchases before buying.
If people preorder or buy stuff without knowing anything (or very little) about a game, or just don't read reviews or watch gameplay video before, I fail to see who's at fault here beside their own selves.
I personnaly NEVER buy a game without waiting for reviews. And if I'm still unsure, some gameplay videos are often making a good job at showing what's the game like. Sure, that implies waiting for the game to actually get released (I don't really trust pre-release stuff coming from the developpers), but then again, this means no impulse buy, and practically no let down. Ever.
Now, that doesn't excuse Nintendo from not giving any refunds whatsoever on digital purchases. Many countries have laws that require companies to offer refunds given various situations.
All I can picture is Nintendo's lawyer in court with a Cappy hat, trying to throw it on the judge to take over their body and make the ruling "case is dismissed, please understand."
Whoever put that stupid Mario in jail picture up as the article thumbnail should be the one in jail. Honestly, now I feel impotent and can't please this woman beside me now.
Meh, don't pre order digital as I like to own my games/women. Not companies forcing my games to a system.
I usually prefer waiting for reviews before I decide to buy games.
@Realnoize True, but sometimes watching a video doesn't give you the feel of the game, I will just try games my way first until I can get in trouble for it and if I don't like it I will delete it, if I do I will buy it and support the company.
Nintendo is breaking no laws. They allow you to preloaded the game therefore you forfit your right to a refund. Granted they should change it to where if you didn't preload you could get a refund but as is they are not violating any law.
On another view don't buy digital if your not sure if you want it or not.
Hopefully, this cost Nintendo a lot of money. I love their games, but their policies are not consumer friendly. Why the hell you cant refund a game even if you HAVE NOT played it? There is a guy that bought Super Mario Party by accident ,instead of Smash. Why wasnt this guy entitled to a refund or at least an exchange of merchandise?
@Steel76 I believe this should be a practice that all companies should employ, with some exceptions I'm sure. Take care.
I prefer physical games. Digital is ok. I will purchase digital if I can't get a decent, working copy of the physical version at all, or if there is a significant amount of savings getting the digital version.
Digital has no resale value, and the license is not only usually non-transferable, but also lost when servers are eventually shut down, or a business' assets are sold off in part, or whole.
A fews weeks ago, I pretty much said this same thing on a YouTube comment. If co.s would be willing to overcome the resale, and license issues I mentioned, I'm sure more people would be willing to jump on-board.
It's not the same for everyone. Not everyone looks at games as something you keep, or just own temporarily. It's a mix of both.
For me, I like actually having the system, and games. I personally am not a fan of "games-as-a-service", like video streaming services. Others may prefer that.
Wouldn't it have been easier for Nintendo to simply allow for cancelations instead of holding ground and going to court? Sometimes I don't understand their thinking
Why does this site put "illegal" in quotation marks. It is a violation against consumer rights!
@jcgonzmo Do u want Nintendo to go bankrupt? If Nintendo does goes bankrupt one day, what will happen to the employees who work at Nintendo? If Nintendo goes out of business (Which I highly doubt it), the employees who work there will lose their jobs and whose fault will it be? Selfish people like you who think Nintendo is being anti-consumer and was rooting for Nintendo to lose money.
I don't mind. When I preorder a game I am sure of what I am doing.
@spizzamarozzi Tbh while there ARE games I will pre-order, they are exclusively physical ones and generally only from developpers/series with good enough of a general track record to want to pre-order.
Digital pre-orders is something I basically never do since it's always best to wait initial reaction when the download can be one I can do from the comfort of my own home knowing that, as you said, there is "infinite" copies unlike the situation with traditional media where(without pre-order) I have to A: Get physically to the store and B: Hope they won't have sold out of those initial copies.
For example Smash Bros was a title I felt safe pre-ordering as even the game I enjoyed the "least"(Smash on WiiU) was still one I had a ton of fun with(I merely enjoyed it less due to the lack of subtantial single player mode once solo events were done with, whereas the new title's World of Light feels like multiple Smash games' worth of Event mode strung together into a single interconnected campaign of which I'm surprisingly finding myself enjoying the puzzle-like nature of some fights and the new Spirits gear system).
I would recommend you only pre-order something you can cancel or something that doesn't require money up front. I pre-order with Amazon because I can cancel up to 24 hours before release. I'm not sure I see the benefit of pre-ordering on the eShop. I would recommend you avoid doing that. Wait, watch some reviews and gameplay before you decide to buy something.
@IHateTombs yah, gotta agree. Although I'm sure the number is small.
Nintendo is in the wrong. They can talk about a contract but in paying in advance is to have a game delivered. If you bail ahead no game is delivered. I mean they may weasel out of it but it should be tough.
Nintendo is wrong on this one. Standard everywhere else to be able to cancel preorders without penalty. It's not like it's a hotel room or an airplane ticket.
@Jokerwolf
To each their opinion, of course, but I haven't met a game that I could'nt get the "feel" of by watching videos either on YouTube or Twitch or elsewhere. There are so many resources available out there to get an educated opinion on a specific game that there is no need to actually buy (or pirate) a game to know if you'll like it or not.
Sure, there are factors that might have been overlooked sometimes, like replayability, or a game that starts real good and then gets boring fast, but these things are also often mentionned in good reviews.
I don't think there is anyone but ourselves to blame when a game we buy isn't living up to our expectations. It's not like we're still in the NES and SNES days when we had to rely on paid magazine subscriptions to read reviews and rely on back of box pics and descriptions to "guess" how good a game potentially could be.
I don't remember having been truly let down by a game I paid for since at least the PS2 era. But then again, I never preorder, and I read a lot before buying anything.
@Pokefanmum82 @Pokefanmum82 because everywhere else, the game is removed from your system upon cancelling a preorder. Its really that simple.
Ive personally reported Nintendo Australia to the ACCC for not releasing preorder titles on time according to region.
In this day and age, if you spend money on something you cant yet access (ala preorder titles not yet playable), there NEEDS to be a lawful provision to get your money back. Nintendo is certainly playing dirty in this regard.
@andywitmyer You played it for a week? You don’t get your money back just because you don’t like it. That’s not how consumerist capitalism works. There are very rare exceptions, like Steam, but even they would laugh off your attempt at a refund after a full week of playing the game.
However, pre-ordering before a game’s release should not be all-binding; but, in the eshop’s case, it seems as if pre-ordering is just paying the full price upfront anyway.
So, my question is this: why the hell would anyone pre-order a digital game? The whole point of pre-ordering is to ensure a, normally, physical copy. I’ve only done it with Steam because they let you try a game at least 2 hours before the contract of purchase is final, but I don’t see any other companies doing this (they really only started it because of so many dodgy early access games featured on their service, and they’ll probably take that privilege away sooner than later). Nintendo said upfront before the sale that it was final.
@KingdomHeartsFan This is where the black area of Homebrew emulation, in my opinion, turns more gray. You paid for those games and were promised further access to them so long as the service lasted; Nintendo upheld their end, but now that the service is going, I don’t think anyone, but Nintendo, would fault you for aquiring those same games through other means. It’s a little different if you were trying to get them for Switch now, as the port requires more work from Nintendo, but you should still be entitled to those games on the system they were purchased for, again, in my opinion.
@jcgonzmo Yeah, pretty dumb they won’t allow a transfer to a game of the same price. However, maybe they just don’t have a system in place to do that; especially since the card is already charged— ...could get messy
@Bobb It’s hard to say; Nintendo has world-class lawyers behind it
@MysticGengar People who don’t have access to Amazon, credit cards (using prepaid cards instead) or simply prefer a straightforward purchase directly on the eShop.
@EasyDaRon I guess the only reason to would be to pre-load the data do that you don’t have to wait for it to download on release day, but at that point the company already gave you the data (except the key), so can’t that be binding?
@RedMageLanakyn Lol. Yes
@Antraxx777 Preorder bonuses, preorder discounts, preloading the game so you don’t have to wait several hours for it to download, things like that. Convenience.
Pre-ordering digital games is a bit odd. The worst case scenario with digital games on release day in general is the store being down for maintenance or the game no longer being listed on the day of release. Which I think you would have more issues than "I should have pre-ordered then" at that point. I do like pre-loading a week in advance. You've already installed the game or most of the game and when the clock strikes mid-night BOOM you can play the game and don't have to wait for the tedious download/install time that comes with new games (I'm looking at you Sony & Microsoft).
But still, the Big-N should allow refunds on pre-orders or just not charge them till the day of release and offer a cancellation on demand option. The only way a user cannot request a refund is if they already pre-loaded the game before release, then they have to have played only so much of the game, and/or it is buggy and non-functional (like Steam).
@Majora101 Agree with everything you said. I also think it’s high time the eShop get a makeover, as it’s an absolute chore to browse titles on now
@SuperWeird I hope that was sarcasm?
Just let people cancel their pre-orders. Do not charge anyone till launch day.
Not this difficult.
Can't really see how Nintendo can lose this case based on the article of law they cite, but anything taking Nintendo to task for their bizarre lack of flexibility is fine by me.
Umm you can't on psn or Xbox
The problem is with money and refunds. They want people who can afford it to pay for their games not have inflated number of people buying into hype and then can't afford to paid for it. Refunds is also an issue. You know, people can abuse the system by constantly requesting refunds, it is very difficult to keep track off by a human (not to mention it costs money) and we can't just trust a computer to do the work for us.
This is the biggest reason why Nintendo isn't offering a refund. Its for convenience. They probably can't afford to hire someone to keep track of those who buys like ten games then wants a refund on half of them down the road.
@Agramonte @Jeronan @Wexter @Slim1999 The problem is with refunds. The problem is that they will have inflated pre-order numbers and people can also abuse the system. Its not good for marketing all round. Think if you could vote and then take back your vote and vote again, its a lot of work for some guy/gal who wants to change their mind.
The best strategy would be to charge a fee for refunds or do what shops do and take like a deposit for the game which you lose if you no longer want it.
@Medic_alert Also certificates are easy to hack.
@Retsam That would be a problem if not the case that most online retailers let you pre-order physical games with zero strings attached. You can cancel at any time.
There is even less liability in a digital store... you not risking ordering inventory to stock an "inflated" pre-order list.
Pre-order is not a "sale"... it is a cue in a line to guarantee a copy or an extra. A consumer should be able to walk off that line at any point.
I don't really see why Nintendo is being stubborn on this issue. All I can think of is a lack of respect for a small and internationally insignificant (no offense to Norwegians) country.
It seems on the surface like a really easy thing for Nintendo to change.
@Agramonte Agree with you. I hope they change their policies about this. I don’t see the point of preordering something that’s digital, but I guess it suits some people.
The problem here is that you pay when preordering. You should just preorder and pay when the game actually releases. That way you can cancel the order if you regret it without any refund hassle.
On the other hand, you shouldn’t be able to get a refund when the game has been released, you’ve payed for it and played it. Then the ship has sailed. But before the game has been released? Come on, Nintendo! There has to be a more consumer friendly solution!
@Quarth Exactly... Don't charge people upfront
I would understand if they want no cancels 24hrs before a big AAA game. If they want an idea of how many people will be downloading from the server on day 1 - and can prepare for a big day.
@IHateTombs true but then again it makes you wonder why its even a law if its ignored in court.
"the performance has begun with the consumer's prior express consent, and with the acknowledgement that he will lose his right of withdrawal once the contract has been fully performed by the trader"
If nintendo always requires a password entry before purchase I guess that could be express consent but I bought a game on the switch for a penny with no such need so I know thats not always the case. I think nintendo will just add that extra hoop and this case is over. Although a lot of countries have a cooling off period and I wonder if they honor that...
@Agramonte Most online retailers are just that "retailers". They have no involvement in the marketing of a game to worry about or all that other jazz.
I'm not saying Nintendo is necessarily in the right but I'm also thinking from their perspective and that is business. This is why they have certain business practices.
Nintendo is a games company. They have more at stake then a retailer. They are charging pre-orders to allow you to preload the game before launch.
This has its advantages and disadvantages. The advantages is obvious, the game can be played immediately at launch and it thus helps with the hype and marketing.
The money they immediately take from pre-orders are probably going to a bank account that most employees at Nintendo have no access to. Thus why it is hard to provide refunds. The money likely goes straight to the higher ups or the marketing division where they can then reinvest and reuse the money for marketing purposes.
Say a game sells well, they immediately use the money they earned to run ads to get more sales while the hype is still high.
If people wanted a refund all of sudden, it will be hard for them to get the money back to refund the customers.
This is also great for indie developers. Seriously, if I was making a game like Celeste for example and pre-order were going through the roof, I'll probably quit my job and continue making games full time instead of waiting for sales numbers to come in, this really helps speed up the process.
From their perspective, a pre-order is no different from a standard retail sale.
The other reason why Nintendo doesn't provide refunds is because you can purchase orders using My Nintendo points. I think this is the biggest reason why they don't refund customers.
It works like loyalty points on a credit card.
It it very hard to issue refunds because you can say buy a $1-10 game using the point you have and it costed you nothing or next to nothing if you had the point available. They probably don't have a system in place to refund and recollect My Nintendo points from accounts not to mention it is a difficult task. Do they just give you back your points that you've redeemed or cancel points you've earned or what?
The only real reason to digitally pre-order is to pre-load the game for release day or to receive pre-order benefits such as discounts/My Nintendo coins. This can still be done the day before release, so why do it months in advance? Especially as the funds are charged immediately. I've stuck to physical games for Switch as retail prices are so much cheaper than the eShop. But I do miss playing it on release night.
""the performance has begun with the consumer's prior express consent, and with the acknowledgement that he will lose his right of withdrawal once the contract has been fully performed by the trader""
The contract isn't fully performed until the game is unlocked for the purchaser to play.
@Medic_alert You do realise that is how Nintendo operates like half the time right?
Also all consoles are hackable. I mean, tell me what programming language can they use to disable/delete games from your system and prevent you from hacking certificates if you decide to cancel the pre-order and keep the game?
I think Nintendo will need a complete overhaul of the system and it'll end up a lot more complex then it is right now.
@Quarth
"On the other hand, you shouldn’t be able to get a refund when the game has been released, you’ve payed for it and played it."
What if there is a game breaking bug? They don't always show up in the first couple of minutes. People are entitled to a quality product. That's the reason why Steam now gives refunds.
@Medic_alert Seriously, they don't officially have an email support team here in Australia. You have to call them.
Does anyone watch reviews on games before they buy them anymore. I mean i dont buy anything until ive researched the f out of it. So there for i only buy good games that appeal to me. Those asking for a refund because they didnt research what they are buying is noones problem but their own. So u lost 10 bucks on a bad game because u didnt do due dilligance... not nintendos fault. Just dont expect a refund on online pruchased games..... and go back to work and earn more money for ya next game
@Medic_alert My point is that they probably do it to avoid legal reasons. Why call them? Because its much harder to sue someone over something said over the phone then it is over an email.
Nintendo seems to be a company that doesn't agree with the way most people do things. Not necessarily a good thing but not necessarily a bad thing either.
In this case, about the pre-order things, it has gotten them in trouble.
Also the pre-order thing is still useful from a marketing perspective as I said not just for indies. If you had an influx of a few million dollars or more, it can do wonders even for a billion dollar company.
I think sometimes simple things work best. Yes, there are compromises but if you exercise common sense then it not an issue.
Personally I can't understand the digital pre-order cancellation thing since I never pre-order anything that isn't physical nor cancelled a pre-order before. If I want to buy something that badly, I pay for it and understand the consequences.
Smash is an example. Apparently the game is buggy so should I ask for a refund because I pre-order it?
@Retsam
"Smash is an example. Apparently the game is buggy so should I ask for a refund because I pre-order it?"
Yes! Just like you're entitled to a refund because the samsung phone you preordered has an exploding battery.
@shaneoh The two are different because one is entertainment and the other can endanger my life.
a) I wish to "play the game" even in its slightly buggy state.
b) I'm also enticed by its $5 pre-order bonus for buying the game now and don't wish to lose that if I get a refund. If this was a Limited Edition it would have been a harder decision to make because I can't do a partial refund.
c) Also I bought it on launch day (so I don't know if that counts as a pre-order) and the bug was discovered after.
d) Its like asking for a refund for a bad movie or food that tasted bad. Bugs in game luckily can be fixed just as food can be remade but generally, its a case where the refund does not change the result.
Edit: But I'll give Amazon a go and see how they respond.
@Retsam
No, they're the same, they both have a problem, it's just the severity of the problem that's different.
As for the other part, you're choosing to waive your right, and it is a right, to a refund. Doesn't mean everyone else has to put up with a sub-par product.
@shaneoh See my edit. I've never heard of a refund for a badly made movie so I think entertainment should work differently.
I can't change the result even if I get a refund for a bad movie or a buggy game. Also it can be somewhat subjective. I mean what next, should I be compensated for my time being wasted and having to suffer through that crap?
Its a slipper slope not a right.
@Retsam
The problem is that you're mistaking poor entertainment value for a poor product. A better analogy would be if the projector died midway through the movie. Wouldn't be fair if the cinema said tough titties and didn't refund your ticket. That's what our laws protect against, being ripped off for an inferior product.
@shaneoh Hmmm...You have a point but I think they are both the same.
A half watched movie = poor entertainment value = poor product.
Thus the refund.
What if they didn't provide a refund? There is technically no lost to be had here. You might feel ripped off but you didn't have to watch a movie. That was kind of my point.
I feel like people today are way too entitled and spoilt for our own good.
In this case couldn't it be argued that it would be the authors/directors/actors of the movie who has a right to sue the cinema for not providing the movie in full?
Here another example. What if instead of the projector dying, the movie was interrupted for a few minutes instead because of "technical difficulty"? (The projector could have died and been replaced for all we know.)
Would you be entitled to a refund since it ruined the movie experience?
I swear #21CenturyProblems... LOL!
When you look at it like that you'll get where I am going with this. It is a slippery slope.
The way I see it is this: If it is a need or someone's life at stake
then it is a crime. If it is not a need then at best you are entitled to a refund.
I fail to understand why the word “pre-order” is still being used when Nintendo clearly states that you are pre-purchasing the game… All pre-orders are done for physical copies while digital copies are pre-purchase so the consumers are agreeing to pay-in-full in a final transaction with full well knowledge and awareness that the transaction is final and non-refundable, in return Nintendo does allow special rights for the digital early purchase consumer to download part of the game early and in some cases play a portion of the game before the official release, it is not being digitally pre-ordered and it is stated that the license of owning the game are being sold digitally ahead of time so there isn't and have never been a “digital pre-order” to cancel to begin with. I am sure this is one of the main reasons why Nintendo refuses to change that policy and rightfully so in some ways.
This is the reason I only pre-order on Amazon... Also because they are flexible on order change and only charge you when they ship the product. Also I'd rather have a physical version.
@Retsam
It's not the same thing though, by buying a ticket you are entering into an agreement. They have to provide the service as reasonably expected, so if the projector or projectionist dies and interrupts the movie, then the agreement has been broken on the cinema's end and they have to provide the refund. Because it is reasonable to expect a full uninterrupted movie from the cinema. If you choose to walk out because you're not enjoying it (which is subjective), or for other reasons, then you waive that right. This helps protect the customer and the service provider from screwing each other over.
@Chibi_Manny
"so the consumers are agreeing to pay-in-full in a final transaction with full well knowledge and awareness that the transaction is final and non-refundable,"
Steam had that clause, didn't do them any good here in Australia. The law takes precedence over contracts, and if the law states that you are entitled to a refund or equivalent (repair/replacement) under a certain set of circumstances, then you are well within your right to get it.
Lol. I don't see how Nintendo can cite the 'performance has begun' when the game cannot be played yet. Nothing has begun. Apart from Nintendo taking money for nothing with no comebacks. Nintendo will lose this and have to allow cancellations.
Wow, what a great way to fight for your customer base Nintendo! Thanks!
@IHateTombs lol I love this karma between this and abuse from Nintendo Russia. Maybe the pirates and modders are fed up with Nintendo rather than just cheap or villains. I also felt it is wrong that the eShop forces you (at least 3ds) to spend at least $10 instead of simply paying for the game. The remainders in accounts is free loans/money for Nintendo.
I get this issue about not being able to cancel a pre-order, but why does there need to be a refund option? When you buy an entertainment product physically, you're generally only allowed a refund if there's something physically wrong with the item or it's still sealed in its case, not because you don't like the content after trying it out.
While digital purchases don't allow you the option to sell it to a used game store to at least get a partial refund, it's still your own fault most of the time if you don't do proper research before buying a game.
If you know this beforehand, don't do it? Also if it's on the eshop why the hell are you preordering? They're not going to run out of digital downloads...
I hope this prompts nintendo to change its policies on other countries as well.
@barpoe I believe Nintendo calls it a pre-purchase not a pre-order that distinction may be enough to give them the legal wiggle room to do this. Not sure if it'll actually hold up in court but we'll see.
This is crazy by Nintendo. Fighting so hard to retain the right to do some anti-consumer BS. I hope they lose.
@Realnoize There are still games even after reviews/gameplay and all that jazz that I have bought and regretted, so I will say again it is imperative that devs make demos if they want to sell more games. If they don't that is fine I will make my own demo and no one gets hurt because I am not going to waste my time on a game if I don't like it after playing it.
I just think it's ridiculous that people preorder digital games in the first place lol, it's not like they ever sell out! The whole point of doing a preorder in days of old when that concept was invented, was to ensure you could actually get the game in the event it did sell out. Digital games do not sell out, so why exactly does anyone preorder them? If bandwidth is too thick to get it the very second it releases, it certainly won't kill you to wait a little 😂
@Retsam That makes perfect sense to me. A small 10 dollar charge on pre-order and it will take it out of your total on release. If you cancel it you will get your 10 dollars back, but only the one time per-title or something. Who knows there are people who get paid far more than I do to work the legistics.
@Kiyata
I guess sometimes people may preorder because of stupid incentives some publishers do to build up a maximum of sales. Like including an "exclusive" DLC or something. Or doing a special sale for those who preorder who'll get the game for $5 less or something.
The problem is that a lot of actors in the industry are actually using pre-order sales numbers to validate or estimate interest in a given game and act accordingly. Like, using preorder sales to estimate how many overall sales a title will generate. This is part of the problem, as it encourage them to find various strategies to pre-sell as many copies they can. That includes all those stupid collectors editions shipped with $5 worth of extra goodies for $50 extra.
This lawsuit is ridiculous. You have to agree to the terms when adding fund to the Nintendo eShop saying you agree that the funds and purchases are not refundable. People need to actually read to things they are agreeing to instead of just clicking yes I read the terms and conditions even if they hadn't. South Park made fun of this with the Human cen-Ipad episode. Everyone is too lazy to read the terms. It does warn you multiple times that it is not refundable. Also pre-ordering digital is as many have said pointless. Pre-orders are if you are worried if something will sell out. That is impossible for digital. I have only ever pre-ordered digital from the eShop once, and that was for Smash a few days before so I could have the pre-download so I could play the game once they activate the codes.
FWIW, note that Sony also does not allow cancellation of digital preorders. I'm not certain MS does either. This isn't just Nintendo, the entire industry has this issue.
Nintendo is the only one of the 3 that charges at the time of purchase, however, the other two do it about a week before release.
Personally I'd prefer an option for all 3 to pay at time of purchase as that's literally the only advantage of digital preorders, I can pay now when I know I can afford it rather than hoping I can 6 months from now. Otherwise, why bother preordering anything digital that will be available day of release just the same? I like that Nintendo charges now. But a cancellation really should be possible for preorders.
@BulbasaurusRex IIRC in the EU people are actually allowed to buy games, play them, and then return them if they don't like them. Which sounds really nice on one hand, Fallout 76 would have gone back on launch day. We in the US get screwed out of our rights to return a product and EU doesn't. On the other hand it leads to masses of scummy people buying games, blasting through them fast, then returning them like a free rental service. Which is probably a big factor in all the DRM, day 1 DLC codes, online service games, etc. etc. So the folks in the EU are upset that they can't return digital games, and here in the states we have no idea what they're talking about because we can't return open games, ever, even if they're garbage.
Why would you pre-order on the eshop? It's not as if they'll "run out" of stock. If it's for the pre-order discount, sorry, that's part of deal. Perhaps a compromise is Nintendo offer a 10% or 20% deposit instead of full amount, so then you only lose the deposit if you bail out. That is a consistent practice in the normal retail world.
@Kiyata @HalBailman Its more a pre-purchase then a pre-order. You can preload the game on the system. Also its a case of tight budgeting for some people. Maybe I can spend like $100 over Christmas but not 6 months later. So a pre-purchase like that would be great. A lot of digital indie games also give a fair bonus or percentage off for buying digitally.
@Retsam Nintendo still want to protect retailers so won't undermine them with cheap eshop deals. In fact, retail deals ensure physical copies are typically way cheaper than digital. In Australia Smash was $90 online or $70 in most stores. Only EB sells at full RRP, although, they have a price match policy. Not sure if there's catches to it or it's commonly used.
In this case Nintendo should only charge a deposit. At the point of pre loading, that's when the full price is paid.
@KingdomHeartsFan I just was mentioning that to someone earlier this week.
Unless there is some major promotion, why preorder anything digital? I used to preorder physical copies of games back in the day before digital and internet existed, and game stores got limited copies of games. Now there is basically no point with exception of limited edition SKUs. People should stop preordering games. Publishers might be forced to release games with more polish if folks would wait until after the game is out to part with their cash.
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