Just recently the studio behind the charming Unravel spoke of an interest in working on the NX. The problem? They have no idea what it is. Though some secrets may or may not be leaking out of Nintendo and partners recently, the actual concept itself remains under wraps.
Picking up on Coldwood Interactive's ball is Thomas Mahler, Moon Studios CEO and director of the critically acclaimed Ori and the Blind Forest, who weighed in on a NeoGAF debate on the topic. He's been rather scathing, stating that he expressed interest in working on Nintendo's forthcoming system but got turned off by the lack of information regarding an NX release date and devkit access. He suggests that more kits should be supplied to prospective developers, especially if Nintendo intends to launch - as has been widely speculated for some time - in 2016.
This is actually THE singlest [sic] most annoying thing for every dev out there. We also talked to Nintendo and got absolutely nothing - I'll never understand that. And just to be clear, it's not just Nintendo, every hardware manufacturer is treating their devkits and their unreleased consoles like they're the second coming and are insanely secretive about it to a stupid degree in todays [sic] time. It's not even that the hardware isn't finished (duh), but you could at least give me the goddamn specs, so we'd know what to build s**t for!
What's needed to sell hardware is goddamn good software. With Nintendo not having any devkits out there at this point and probably even wanting to sell it in 2016, I can already guarantee that they'll just not have any software support, since nobody can just jumble games together in less than a year. I mean, you can, but it'll be garbage.
The same is true for Engine Support - Get Unity and Epic to support these consoles WAAAAY ahead of release. By the time the console launches, it should be EASY for developers to develop games for these systems, things shouldn't just only start at this point. I want the goddamn devkits or at least proper hardware specs ideally 2 years before release - Keep all the developers updated, start a forum where devs can chat and figure out all the problems everyone's having, instead of everyone just having to deal with it. None of that's happening anywhere.
The comments around engine support seem interesting, as you'd expect studios like Mahler's to have a decent idea of what support is in the pipeline, though not necessarily aware of all details. He went on in a further post, clearly frustrated by the situation and sharing his views on engine support, third parties and competition NX faces in attracting developers.
I am sour on this issue. Treating hardware like it's your baby and keeping it away from devs is exactly what you don't want to do in 2016 and one would think that Nintendo learned their lessons with the software-drought the 3DS and the Wii U were both suffering from. The Wii U never recovered from it and the 3DS needed a price-slash and a huge turnaround to remedy the situation after that.
Also, it's not like I have no experience with this - Having 'engine support' doesn't necessarily mean that you can actually make builds and have a proper developer environment ready. I'd be literally SHOCKED if any of these engines support any platform features the NX might have to offer at this point. Shocked.
Nintendo should at this point be sending out devkits to whoever wants it - They need software and if they'll again only rely on 'unprecedented software support' from the likes of EA, I wish them the best of luck. They'll need indies and smaller studios to step up and make use of their (hopefully) innovative hardware. At this point, they need devs WAAAAAAAY more than the devs need them. Steam, X1, PS4, etc. are all super nice environments in which developers can thrive - The NX isn't yet, so they need to sell devs on it. They're not doing that by keeping everything close to their chest. It's just a silly situation.
It's a pretty strong outburst from a developer that's near the top of the Indie scene at present. Let us know what you make these comments below.
[source neogaf.com, via gamesindustry.biz]
I'm not so sure this wasn't written by @rjejr! Screams of him!
As for the comments, it seems Nintendo is getting the big players on board first. They most likely think the Indies can wait.
Someone sounds upset
OK - I'm sure any decision by Nintendo not to release NX dev kits is the fact that the console is at the moment shrouded in secrecy bar any leaks. If they start giving them out to everyone and anyone then they're gonna potentially blab to sites like this and will spill the beans. After the thing's been formally announced then they'll probably give them out more sparingly. Plus it's only rumour and speculation that even the big name devs have got them. Dude needs to be patient.
I agree with everything he just said. I think Nintendo can be too secretive for their own good. At this point, I really hope they don't rush the NX out in 2016. They need to get developers back on their side. That should be their number 1 goal.
That sounds like sensationalism to me. I'll wait until the actual details for NX are unveiled.
I still believe that the "NX" won't come out in 2016 and the fact that no one stills know anything about it (we don't even have a semblance of an official name) just makes me believe that all the more.
On another point, it is difficult to convey emotions through text but boy, does he sound frustated
Wow this guy sounds like a complete tool, congratulations you made a game, the sense of entitlement from him is staggering
Well he has a very good point, however that's far from an even remotely professional statement. Just the whole general tone of it all makes him sound like a spoiled little child that doesn't get his way. And surely all the swearing isn't necessary, at all.
The essence of his message is true, though.
The studio made one game and expect a dev kit day one?
haha, what a joke.
Yeah, no. Nintendo can't just give it to anyone until launch. That's how it works. Even with other console makers.
@CB85 I like people who swear, at least they're not narcissistic like people who look down on people who swear. Not to mention they're usually more blunt and straight to the point.
Thing is there is usually a certain pecking order when it comes to which devs get development kits first. It makes sense that Nintendo would want to reach out to major publishers and their closest partners first before going for everyone else. There is a good reason why companies like Nintendo are highly secretive when it comes to new hardware. As a few others here have said you cant just go around handing out development kits willy nilly since with new hardware you dont want to reveal too much too soon and developers cannot always be trusted to keep their mouths shut when needed
Also I find his claims highly dubious due to the rumors that NX will support Unity and UE4 which is pretty much a given
Sounds like Nintendo is focusing on the bigger devs. High profile indie devs like Yacht Club, WayForward, and Shinen might have dev kits though.
@BlatantlyHeroic You can be straight to the point without swearing as well. This looks more like a lack of vocabulary than anything else. It's not a complaint, this is a whiny rant and it makes him look unprofessional.
Woah, chill out man
@Wolfgabe That's certainly true. The problem is that he seems to be under the impression that the NX is launching this year, which may very well be not the case. Also it's a small indie team that made one game and not even a game on a Nintendo console. It isn't that weird to think that the developers that worked closely with Nintendo will be the ones getting a dev kits first, isn't it?
Wow, what a nasty sounding person. Sure, some of the points make sense, but he doesn't need to say it in such an immature way. And as people said, surely Nintendo would focus on the larger developers first?
I think that Nintendo should have the "ears to the track" and listen to what devs want and provide some form of confirmation that they hear something. Because now its like they have blinds on.
Well to be fair, it makes sense Nintendo not to hand out NX development kits to everyone just yet. They don't want anyone leaking details about what the platform is, as @ottospooky stated.
Remember it was through an indie developer that the Xbox One was leaked a few months before the official reveal took place. There was even pictures etc of the development kit.
I don't know, but to me indie games are the last aspect that matter when I buy a console. And calm down dude, you still a small fish for now. That said I agree that Nintendo must cover their holes and try to make a lot of friends.
And by now maybe I want that NX skip this year.
Pokemon Direct probably will tell us (New gen on 3ds, NX 2017 onward, Z or XY2 before October, probably NX on November)
Seems like they won't get anyone on their system this time because lack of information, maybe after they announce it they will hand out development kits.
His tone aside he's absolutely right.
"At this point, they need devs WAAAAAAAY more than the devs need them. Steam, X1, PS4, etc. are all super nice environments in which developers can thrive...".
I love Nintendo dearly, but this statement rings very true. If they want their console to have the best possible start, they need to keep developers in the loop. Even small developers.
The attitude at Nintendo seems to have not changed since the Gamecube days, where the console was purposefully built to be difficult to program for, so only the "best developers" can make anything for it. The thought that small developers can't ever bring something worthwhile to their system is very frustrating. Well, look what happens... Nintendo's marketshare is shrinking, and rival consoles are thriving.
Wow, he'd fit right in with a lot of the commenters here. The entitlement is palpable.
@Spoony_Tech you are right, I think.
If the NX is seen as a console for these type of games it will go the same way as the X factor is going.
Lots of armature gaming smothering the professionals.
@ryanrybot Only one of the rival consoles is really thriving, and that's obviously the PS4. The Xbox One certainly isn't thriving. It's not a failure, but it isn't thriving either.
"Wahhhh! We didn't publish or bother to make anything for Wii U, but we want to be able to hop on the NX hype train, so Nintendo needs to bow to our demands or we'll publicly criticize them!"
They sound just like their publisher, Ubisoft.
Can't be rjejr. Nintendo was spelled correctly
@IceClimbers - That's a great point.
While some major third parties probably did okay on XboxOne, the fact that it's been sold at blowout prices with generous bundles, and many of it's exclusives have gone multiplatform rather quickly (Dead Rising 3, Ryse, Tomb raider) ... points to a console mainly being propped up by massive Microsoft cash injections.
@DoctorWily Maybe he was trying to be politically correct this one time?
As much as I kind of agree with the sentiments of his post, there are clearly a number of reasons ALL the console manufacturers do this. For Nintendo, it is important they win back the major third parties first and foremost. By handing them - and only them - early dev kits, it means their early games will get the spotlight and, if they're any good, hopefully sell. Then they'll make more instead of run away. I seem to remember when the 3DS launched, Nintendo purposely didn't release any major first party games on it as third parties thought their launch games wouldn't sell otherwise. It's debatable how successful that strategy was but it is a similar principle to only allowing a few third parties NX dev kits.
I believe it's Microsoft.
We're having an international week at our uni and the speaker today said that it's really hard to work on consoles that aren't out yet. The environment isn't ready yet. I'm not sure if anyone wants to develop a game on a machine where in addition to your game's bugs, you have to also take console's bugs to account. It must be nice when you have everything working fine and then the hardware changes and something breaks in your game.
Maybe. Not sure he knows how though.
Someone is sounding far too entitled. If Nintendo gave every minor indy developer dev kits, then most of the NX details would have been leaked by now.
I agree with the Ori dev. If Nintendo wants any early support they have to give early support to developers. I work in Unity, and even if the NX launches with full Unity support, And I happen to have a fully finished product to convert to the new system, I still wouldn't have the game ready on the new system for another several months at best. And even after that would come the problem of getting my game on Nintendo's store. Hardware companies need to stop hiding and start working towards making a better relationship with devs to provide better experiences for their customers.
Hey I love Ori and the Blind Forest and glad it won its share of reward.
But that doesn't entitle you to thinking your bigger then you are. If other small Indie devs have to wait then he has to wait too.
From what I heard only the small indie guys who got Dev kit are those who are close to Nintendo like Wayforward and Shin'en.
This guy needs to chill down a bit.
Although I'm sure Nintendo won't do a damn thing differently, good for Mahler for voicing some valid criticism.
You'll get all the devkits you want once they announce the thing. Chill out.
I'm super frustrated with Nintendo because they haven't personally called me and told me everything about their 'NX' system yet. They need me way more then I need them cause reasons, facts and logic and stuff. I'm totally cool and wouldn't leak any info.....honest.....now tell me your secrets or I will complain more about you on the interwebs
Wow, and this guy is actually a CEO of a company??? Sounds like a punk teen on a tirade about how he/she didn't get their way...
It's true though that Nintendo needs to invest the time with the large publishers first. There is an ACTUAL install base for those types of games. Sure, you need indies too... but that's a little more niche.
If Nintendo wants to be successful, they need to have all loose ends tied up PRIOR to a big console reveal. That's what I feel like they're trying to do now. Get on board with EA, Activision, etc. let them see the product and commit to supporting the platform. That way when the big reveal happens, they actually have something to show for.
The indies can come afterwards... it's business.
@Gerbwmu - You forgot that I haven't shown the slightest interest in developing new content or porting existing content to Nintendo platforms that could use my third party support now, not during a hyped up launch window.
@MintFox The studio only made one game and never released anything on a Nintendo console, but expect a dev kit asap anyway? That's not how it works. If Nintendo was handing out dev kits left and right, the entire thing would be leaked by now. A home console isn't most likely coming out this year either, so it's not as if they're running out of time...
The developers that worked close with Nintendo are the ones to get a dev kit first, that's just how it works. These guys have never shown any interest in developing for a Nintendo console in the first place.
Oh, shut the hell up you spoiled brat. Who cares about this? I've never heard of whichever game this guy made, why is this even relevant?
@Octane You actually thought I was being serious? People these days. XD
But nah, I could see where the guy is coming from if he wasn't part of an Indie studio, because if he wasn't he would probably have a dev kit, but he is and so he's not exactly the triple A tier developer that Nintendo needs at launch. Not to mention he has no proof that AAA game developers DON'T have the dev kit. If they do, then they'd probably be sworn to secrecy.
Now... If Nintendo HASN'T given out the dev kit to developers who actually matter (not Indie devs)... then we probably will have a drought of good games, and most of the games we get will be crappy games made in just a year, rather than games that could have had two years of development before the console was even released.
That's pretty awkward, seeing as how neither of those developers have actually made games for Nintendo's systems. What makes them think that Nintendo isn't showing/giving dev kits to indies who have supported Nintendo's systems, like Wayforward and Curve Digital? Obviously Nintendo would target established "Nindies" and big publishers before going after random indies. I'm interested in both Unravel and Ori, but this guy is just coming off as arrogant and self-aggrandizing.
@Yorumi: I've only been working on one game on Unity as a part of group project and to my experience, Unity is pretty "bleh". We also made a game using SFML and I liked it much better, I'm still making little projects with SFML. On our second year we got to what we are actually here to learn about, game engine programming. We had a 5 month project (every Friday was a project day) of making a 2D graphics engine and now we've moved onto making a 3D game engine (5 months, twice a week). I'd say everyone who has made a game on a game engine should also take a look at how the engines are constructed. The engines do so much for the people who use them. You can't really appreciate them before trying to make one yourself.
That's pretty classless. I think his point would have been much better served if he had kept his cool. You're not going to win respect for the indie scene by flying off the handle like an angst-ridden teenager. As it is, it just looks like he's throwing a tantrum because he didn't get invited to the adult table at Thanksgiving dinner.
So this can mean one of two things:
i) Nintendo is making the same mistakes again or
ii) the NX won't be released this year.
I bet Yacht club games has a dev kit...and I have a Shovel Knight Amiibo I paid good, cold American cash for...
I don't own Ori and the Blind Forest, or an Ori Amiibo...bet you wish you had thought about publishing on Nintendo platforms now, huh?
@Yorumi Well maybe. But he's right in the fact that for a 3rd party developer developing a game for a new system in less than a year will probably not turn out too well.
Ugh, I won't be buying any game he's involved with.
@Yorumi That's good then, if the rumors are true
Dude sounds like he's 12. No wonder he didn't get a kit.
@Spoony_Tech Well I know I didn't write it, but I was thinking what you were thinking, guy sounded just like me. ie he makes sense.
Yeah, he sounds like a spoiled entitled brat, and if I were Nintendo I wouldn't give him a device kit either since Wii U didn't get Ori and I'm petty like that.
But, it isn't about him, or his company, he's talking in generalities. If you've been following any of the Youtube rumour stuff there seems to be issues w/ Nintendo and their development kits. 4 points checklists, super-secret-ultra-secrecy. It doesn't sound like smooth sailing for any 3rd parties. Its one thing for NX to be hidden behind a wall of secrecy from the general public, but game makers need to know what hardware they are making games for, and they don't even know if it's a home console, handheld, both, or nrither. That's his point, it's not about him, it's about how Nintendo treats the development community as a whole, which isn't very good.
And thanks for getting me 1st post.
That's telling 'em.
Awfully presumptuous of him to think Nintendo is obligated to play by his rules. He does make some fair points, but putting something like this up for the public (and Nintendo to see) probably won't be making him friends anytime soon.
Loose lips sink ships considering the leaks I think the last thing any company would do is hand a dev kit to a less well-known developer linked to the controversy megaphone that is Neogaf.
I'd wager if they handed out a dev kit to Moon Studio very shortly after an "anonymous developer" would post on Neogaf out all the features and specs. If Nintendo are smart they will have only given out dev kits to trusted reliable developers and publishers not just some random dude with no links to them. I think if an indie dev has an NX dev kit I'd imagine it would be Shin'en.
@Octane What I find odd is that this is coming from a dev who has mainly been aligned with MS as far as I know
Indies: "i neeeeeeeeeeeeeeed that NX Devkit Plz!"
Man, the entitlement! I could get behind some of the point he was making but he has got to work n his communication skills. A lot.
Nintendo is probably getting the big software houses on board, I am sorry but indie games don't sell consoles even if they are a very nice and welcome side dish!
So far all the devs who have been complaining about NX secrecy are small time devs, not taking a shot at their games as they are rather good. Now if this was Platinum games, Kojima, Capcom or square then I would be worried.
But as it stands so far its two indie/small time devs
This looks more like a good reason not to give that company a dev kit as a leak would be almost immediate.
Why not give NX Dev kits to bloatware indies?
@Yorumi I've done some programming and once I get settled I plan to work with 2D games as a hobby. Unity looked good but what were your problems with it?
I'd take an Ori and the Blind Forest port on a Nintendo console!
He raises some good points but I imagine Nintendo are currently picking and choosing who they give devs kits too, to try and make for a good launch/early line up and avoid a sea of duds. I expect only folks with previous history with them have NX kits. I hope they've given them to their 'big' indie devs like Image & Form, Yatch Club, Shin'en, DrinkBox and Choice Provisions (formerly Gaijin Games). And by 'big' I mean the ones who've made big hits and amassed a following.
Though it would have been amazing to see them reach out to other popular devs from other console fan bases like these guys, Housemarque, The Behemoth, that game company, Hello, Insomniac etc. If I were in charge I'd also be knocking on the doors of some of the big kickstarter games out there too.
@Yorumi I completely agree with everything you have said so far. This guy is a complete d**k and he needs his handed to him. If this was someone on my sales team, he'd be back home and jobless the moment he'd posted that...
(and for some reason he reminds me of another idiot developer by the name of Fish... )
The entitlement is nothing short of pathetic and not being able to communicate without resorting to swearing shows a distinct lack of professionalism.
And besides that it's also a lot of misplaced crying, seeing as so many rumors are actually saying the complete opposite of the very thing he is claiming: according to those Nintendo is VERY actively pursuing third parties and has reportedly been doing so ever since last year's E3, and dev kits have been handed out to the most important parties, so they're more than likely covered.
Apparently they're also thinking ahead this time, as according to other positive and partially confirmed rumors they are even offering a solution to solve shortage of dev kits: software packages (offering the same environment as which is in the dev kits) are available/will soon become available for developers wanting to start developing for NX, so they can make a head start and when they will finally do get their own dev kit, porting should be relatively easy.
Also, support for nearly all engines should be a no-brainer: I don't need any rumors to figure that one out myself.
Besides the rumor concerning Unreal Engine 4 and Unity support out of the box, I'm going to go out on a limb and I am betting that NX will literally support nearly ANY engine that is available now or that will be developed later on.
Why? Because the hardware, whether it is ARM or x86 based, will be able to accommodate since all these engines are scalable from smart platforms to high end PC's and back. And there will be no PPC related tech in NX; besides it not being supported anymore (something that was already happening during the Wii U's release) and needing some heavy customization of existing tech, that doesn't rhyme with unifying architecture that can be used across devices and programming and sharing games between these different architectures would necessitate tons of optimization, if possible at all. (my bet is it isn't, but as a programmer, you'd probably know more about that. I only sell hardware so whatever I know is limited to being able to make a good enough story to convince people to buy)
Anyway, this guy is off his rocker and all the people going along with it need to take a lesson in deductive reasoning an checking facts instead of nodding and adding their voice to it. This is how BS is brought into the world and needlessly perpetuated.
Ori And The Blind Forest is a MASTERPIECE. In all caps. Yep.
He also raises some good points. Nintendo should probably listen.
@IceClimbers wayforward isn't an indie studio though, they been making games since the early 1990's not to mention founded in 1990.
@GeminiSaint Nàh, probably not. As we say in sales & marketing: "You're only as good as your last party" meaning that just because you achieved something great now, there's no guarantee you will be able to repeat that, and his "party" as such exists of the achievement of only a single game.
So that is the only reputation upon which he can base all his entitlement, which obviously is nothing short of ridiculous. For all we know his next game will seriously bomb and then the resulting sales will more than likely shut him up faster than you can say "told you so". I do agree with you that Ori is a wonderful game, and I liked it very much, but now having read his rant on NeoGAF does give me kind of a bad aftertaste that such a nice game can come from such a douche bag.
Makes it even less surprising with this attitude that they picked Xbox as the exclusive console. Makes you not want to buy the game that's for sure, if not just to buy it and anger Xbox fans that something left their egg cooker and went to the WiiUseless. Also it's funny how based on a few rumors and things that Nintendo would like to do, that suddenly "NX IS HERE IN 2016" is a sealed deal, which Nintendo never said once was true, just that they want to. Anyone ever heard of a delay? It doesn't even have to be a negative delay. So now all the idiot gamer journalists are going out of their way to stir the pot, get the devs angrier over nothing, get the community in an uproar and for what? I yearn for the days where the big companies ruled again and shut down these indie peanuts. Cool game, bad attitude. You don't deserve my money.
@Yorumi What would you suggest then SDL?
@Yorumi Thanks. So if I understand you correctly, and assuming the rumor of the software that could temporarily replace physical dev kits is true, developers could indeed at least start programming and would then have to do some optimization to port that over to the actual dev kits once they receive one?
If so, and if the software is indeed similar as to what is in the actual dev kits, I'd wager it'd be a whole lot simpler to port than games previously being ported from PC/x86 environments to Wii U...
@TheRealThanos I hear its it's harder to port games over if you use other engines that you know nothing about, like game maker.
It's crazy how clueless fanboys are on this site. His frustration is very much justified and deserves to be expressed. It's irresponsible, idiotic and downright backwards that these developers aren't given a clue of what they are developing for.
Frankly, I see no reason to think he is wrong or that he is entitled like Nintendo's fanboys like throw around at anyone and everyone who criticizes Nintendo.
@Kalmaro Wut? hsteer?
@TheRealThanos oh you... Fixed meant to say 'harder'
@Yorumi c++ is amazing, not sure what they are talking about...
@EngieBengie With all due respect, but what actually IS crazy is defending this idiot and then mixing that up with assumptions.
Just because you're on a Nintendo related site, doesn't mean all people on there are "fanboys" (hate that term, especially since I'm slowly nearing 50, so I can hardly be called a boy anymore) and so you can't just heap 'em all together and slap a label on it.
I myself started gaming at the same age as you (5yo) when there wasn't even any Nintendo in sight, so I've learned from an early age to be open to any and all forms of entertainment, which has resulted in me not only having Nintendo consoles, but also a Sega Dreamcast, a gaming PC and an Xbox 360.
As for not seeing why this guy is wrong: I think @Yorumi has already more than sufficiently explained why he is, so maybe you should give reading his previous comments another go. No Nintendo-fanboyism in those either...
@Yorumi When exactly did he say it was only for him? Do you think you can get a lot of great games on launch day without a proper headstart on development?
"He's a nobody " No, you are a nobody. He made a game (One I heard was pretty damn good). What have you done?
@Kalmaro Yeah, just kidding. I figured that's what you meant, although I would have to take your word for it, since I'm no programmer.
@TheRealThanos No, the crazy thing is people defending Nintendo at every turn for fear of hurting the feelings of their beloved widdle little company despite how dumb their mistakes are. They're a company, a business, not your best buddy so feel free and encouraged to criticize them because you aren't harming anyone for doing this.
Anyways, I'll read his comments see what he has.
@Yorumi I'll admit you got me there. However, if you've paid attention, he is also criticizing ALL console manufacturers, not just Nintendo. That includes Microsoft who he has worked for. Now why is he criticizing the NX is because it's the latest console. I still think that if what he says is true and that Nintendo isn't communicating them specs and release dates, that is irresponsible of them.
@EngieBengie Some people might be doing that, but the same can be said of the most loyal Microsoft or Sony supporters, or even the so-called PC elitists. You won't see these ever touching a console. That doesn't mean that they are all like that. Just saying: don't generalize too much. Won't do anyone any good. It creates needless irritation and you'll get a lot of flak for no reason too.
Being critical of any company is fine, and they are indeed businesses, but there's being critical (and I have been plenty critical of Nintendo lately, so no argument there) and then there's being a raving idiot that can't even bring up the decency to speak in eloquent words.
Frustration can very easily be summed up in normal wordings, swearing and such would be more fitting for some anonymous keyboard warrior, not a professional developer...
Love how he mentions that everybody else is doing this but then he mentions Nintendo repeatedly like its a verbal tic. If sony and MS do this as well why aren't you also calling them out? Also not a fan of anyone that represents a company via swearing. It is unprofessional. Even if you are a business of one person when you step up to the media you aren't "you the person", you are "you the business". And just how I wouldn't watch an Apple keynote with swearing I'm not a fan of this. (For the record I curse like a sailor...but not at work.)
@TheRealThanos Y'know, I appreciate these words. I'll keep em in mind.
@EngieBengie You're most welcome. I know it's hardly possible nowadays, and maybe I'm getting too old for this, but in an ideal world, I would just like for all of us to have a good time on here and seriously remember that at the end of the day, it's only a hobby and it shouldn't create so much frustration.
And this coming from the guy that has destroyed countless wired joypads by throwing them into walls because he couldn't beat certain games...
@TheRealThanos Well, with age comes wisdom.
"At this point, they need devs WAAAAAAAY more than the devs need them."
Right, devs will do just fine without any systems to release on[/sarcasm]
With the amount of "professionalism" he has displayed in his little tirade, is it any wonder he won't likely see a dev kit any time soon?
@Yorumi gotcha makes sense now. Oh and apologies for saying you're a nobody.
Whilst I agree that Nintendo would be foolish to not hand out Dev Kits, certainly to developers who they've worked with in the past, the whole point of Nintendo as a brand is to be different, so it's understandable that they would want to keep their secrets on what they're developing within a pretty close circle. If the Dev kits haven't gone out yet, I'm sure they will soon after the reveal (which hasn't happened yet, so this whole discussion is hypothetical)
And really, we know nothing about NX, or how far through development it is. Those Devs who'll be at the top of the pile (Major players like Capcom, Ubisoft, Platinum, and the like and even indie developers like Wayforward, who have worked closely with Nintendo on previous occasions), may have their Dev kits, they may not. Who knows?
But to the same degree, Mahler represents the company as a whole, not just himself as an individual. His point could just as easily have been made much more... professionally.
@EngieBengie Yeah, the wisdom that with the money that I could have saved by NOT throwing all those joypads into the wall I could more than likely have bought me another console...
Kind of funny that he would be expecting a development kit after releasing just one solid game. I really enjoyed Ori and the Blind Forest but making one good game hardly qualifies you as a top opinion on the matter and even more so doesn't justify you receiving a kit ahead of so many more higher profile developers that have a proven history of quality releases. Besides his next game will likely be funded by Microsoft like Ori was if I recall correctly so it probably won't come to NX even if they did receive a kit.
@Yorumi @EngieBengie Aw, you guys... this is almost better than a daytime TV drama. My eyes are almost starting to water...
Remember there wasn't Unity support for either Xbox One nor PS4 till about a year after they launched. And it took about the same time before [email protected] started to accept devs they hadn't previously worked with.
So this guy, who worked with MS on Xbox One, I can totally understand why he's saying to Nintendo "Start early, because even early is too late!"
Also I don't know the background of the folks who made Ori, but don't just assume they're novices just because the studio has one game under its name. Studios can have a very short lifespan, but often the teams behind them have worked all sorts of places, including big AAA, other indie studios or as contractors burried in the credits if bigger titles (or even not named in credits).
LOL. NX isn't even real, it was just an off-comment by Iwata following the mobile stuff annoucement. The fact that developers are getting anxious about it is good though... this totally secretive non existing console brings more attention to Nintendo it's quite remarkable. Guess we'll find out more about it... during E3 2017.
Haha no. In fact by this guy's reaction it seems Nintendo is doing the right thing.
I think Nintendo being secretive is very important at this time. If I remember right, they announced the Wii U and instantly people started giving it a bad image thanks to all these devs and publishers chiming in on how "horrible" the system was. By keeping the thing secret, they can 1) Force devs to keep quiet about the specs and such and 2) keep people guessing on what it might be so they don't decide on their decision to purchase to early on.
@Project_Dolphin Except name calling without even giving a reason except Nintendo is right and he is wrong is called flaming not criticism.
I agree that he should have been more professional, however burning bridges with indies is the last thing Nintendo should do, because if NX releases later this year chances are there will hardly be any launch titles and AAA third parties will abandon the NX when the inevitable software drought during and following the console's release occurs. This drought could be alleviated by indies, but if they jump ship NX will be a first party only console which would truly be when Nintendo is doomed.
@JamesCoote Moon Studios is basically a two man team, and they have contacts all over the world (probably due to them now being a first party developer for Microsoft) to aid them in programming whenever needed: http://oriandtheblindforest.wikia.com/wiki/Moon_Studios
As for mr. Mahler himself, he has done some character modelling on Starcraft and teaching 3D modelling before starting Moon Studios and making his first own game:
So, all in all, he doesn't really has a very diverse resumé. He may be good, but right now he is acting anything but professional. I wonder if Microsoft is going to reprimand him. (or maybe they won't give a sh... , even though he is basically also critical of them)
Oh, joy: time for another drinking game! Take a shot whenever anyone uses the buzzword 'entitlement' in any form. The more sanctimonious comments 'entitle' you to take 2 shots!
(Those in shock from the profanity needn't feel they must play.)
Off for a nap because this thread has made me tipsy.
@Neko_Ichigofan Logically, they need to get the bigger parties on board first, and then and ONLY then can they fully focus on Indies. They can keep em warm in the meantime, but they don't have to bow to every single Indie that is demanding a dev kit. These things don't grow on trees, you know...
If they had something like 10 to 15 kits available, then they will most likely have kept a couple themselves and sold the rest to the bigger developers, leaving only a few or maybe not even that to cater to Indies. Rumors are that they have made a custom software package that contains almost everything that the dev kit has, to still be able to cater to anyone, including Indies, that would like to develop for NX.
Nintendo is keeping this console or whatever it is a secret. And only giving the Dev Kits to people who they can trust(i hope). This guy? I feel like he would tell the whole world what the NX is. So immature especially for a man who worked on a fantastic game.
@TheRealThanos I think you guys are projecting way too much into this guy based on one forum post
I keep getting flashbacks of how the Sega Saturn launched. I know that it's quite a different situation, but if they really do launch this year I think it would be a HUGE mistake. Limited developer support, no hype to build on, and huge question marks above fans heads. The Saturn led to Sega dropping out of the hardware business. I would be devastated if the same happened to big N.
It's so sad when you find Naru dead in the prologue! Hope she comes back at the end or something!
@JamesCoote How so? And by the time you read this, he has only just cooled down after posting a few more of these posts on NeoGAF.
I can't speak for others, but for me personally, I just look at it from a business man's perspective: you can't go public being a company's face (because that's what he is) and drop f* bombs left and right instead of just addressing your concerns in a rational, business-minded kind of way. Remember Phil Fish from the game Fez? He also got a LOT of backlash for being openly unprofessional.
Even if this guy is right, then he could still potentially hurt his own company because of the way he conducted himself here, so even besides Nintendo or any other company he criticizes, he should at the very least have thought of that.
@k8sMum I would love to take a little night cap, but it is a week day so I don't think I'm entitled to...
Damn the entitlement, full speed ahead. ( Oops, cursed there. Ah well, never was much of a one for clutching my pearls.)
Keeping that stuff locked down, that's why. Social media age asked for it.
@k8sMum Luckily I'm my own boss nowadays, so I might take one after all...
@TheRealThanos Basically, as a fellow indie dev, I totally get his frustration and could easily see myself in the same situation. Just snapping and saying "sod it, this stuff needs to be said."
Game dev can be incredibly stressful and the internet makes it easy to speak your thoughts of a fleeting moment, and have them carved into stone for eternity.
Point being, humans aren't corporate robots, and it's unfair to criticise them for that. (All the more ironic that the guy's annoyance is with console makers' monolithic attitude).
This guy needs to hire a PR Rep. Any legit professional company does. its for their own protection. Game devs are not often socially well adjusted people.
With that said he makes valid points. Part of it feels like Nintendo secrecy, Japanese corporate bueracracy, and just Nintendo being out of date with the current landscape. News of late has not been encouraging for the NX.
@JamesCoote Well, we're really not all that much in disagreement here, except you look at the human side of it, and I look at the business side. Of course as a person he can get angry, sad, frustrated and what not, but you have to take care how to express that when you are representing a company and all the world is there to see your rantings and ravings. (hence the Phil Fish example, who purely coincidentally also snapped after having made his first commercial game)
The thing is that once on the internet, it isn't going to go away and like I said it can be very damaging to your business. And come to think of it, what I forgot to mention in my previous comment, as an employer, Microsoft might also not be all too happy with these outbursts.
And he's not really an indie anymore, since he's already been part of Microsoft for some time now, so Moon Studios are a first party developer now.
On another note, you being a developer yourself I can understand it is easier for you to relate, but your colleague @Yorumi is also in the industry, and clearly he does not relate, so it''s not a given that you should personify yourself with this guy.
@Yorumi @TheRealThanos Naa, trust me, you're projecting that stuff onto him. When you've been through console certification, especially as an indie, where you're not just picking up a 9 to 5 paycheck doing this stuff for someone else, you'll understand.
What's with people calling everything and everyone "entitled" these days? Like the phrase "political correctness," it seems to have lost any kind of discernible meaning, and doesn't really communicate anything of substance beyond "I don't like the attitude of [insert name here]".
While I do think the dev is perhaps harboring an unrealistic expectation, I think his broader point is accurate.
@JamesCoote Well pardon me for saying so, but I think that's kind of presumptuous. I'd like to think I'm old and wise enough to know exactly what I mean and/or am doing, so I'd rather trust myself and I know that I'm definitely not projecting.
I also know this because as a sales & marketing professional I actually sometimes use projection on potential customers. Works like a charm...
Besides that, it's just common business sense and deductive reasoning, no bias, no ulterior motives. Well at least not on my part.
And like I said: he's not really an Indie anymore; he's a first party dev for Microsoft. (which by the way would also beg the question how much freedom they would give him to develop for other consoles so why would he even need an NX dev kit?) And maybe he's been through some stuff on the earlier application for Wii U, but since he has (supposedly) only applied for an NX dev kit and hasn't received any answer whatsoever, he probably hasn't been through any certification as of yet.
And Microsoft takes care of his paycheck, so he'll probably be just fine...
And as for that 9 to 5 paycheck: I already understand since I'm my own company, so there is no one else but me taking care of my money either.
Idiotic move IMO. If you are a CEO of a development company and you go on a FORUM to air out your dirty laundry, you lose a lot of respect in my book. He didn't just bash Nintendo, he went for MS and Sony as well. Just not smart at all.
You have guys working under you that are supposed to look up to you. It looks childish using a forum to air your frustrations. If the NX takes off he is going to look like a complete moron. Just not a smart move at all. And considering Nintendo has meetings with EA soon, I really doubt they are turning their backs on 3rd party.
I dunno, maybe Nintendo wants to keep things secret for a reason like they're not planning on launch being dependent upon small multiplatform titles? Just guessing here...
Nintendo fans do not need Ori.
Anybody mention how he has proven he can't control his mouth at great risk to his own future and how that shows Nintendo and the other guys that they are absolutely right to not trust indie developers like him to control their mouth when something less important to them is on the line?
@3MonthBeef Well, I actually mentioned him more to point to the potential damage that he could do to himself and his company, not so much to point to arrogance or whatever.
I was purely looking at it from a perspective as a one-man business myself and the damage that a similar outburst from me would do in relation to any potential business partners that I might want to attract: if they found me being so enraged and immature on some online forum, then they may very well think twice before making a deal with me and I'd wager the same would go for any other business.
Being visible online brings along a whole new set of potential dangers to any employee or freelancer looking to spread his work and getting connected to parties that matter...
@aaronsullivan we could have, but more of the "poor man's" sympathizers seem to be crawling out of the woodworks, so I don't know if it's of any use anymore. Thanks all the same for mentioning it, though...
Some of your Unity knowledge is getting outdated. Unity is free without compromise except for online services until your company makes $100,000, then it's per seat pricing. It could easily be far cheaper than royalties depending on the project and less hassle over time. Sound has been much improved including some nice mixing, too.
When it comes to middleware the race is pretty tight depending on what you are targeting. Many updates to come in the next few weeks with GDC going on as well. Not sure of the implications of Crytek going Amazon.
At least right now, between Unreal Engine and Unity I'm not sure you can go wrong. You might end up with an engine less suited to the type of game you are making or platform you are targeting, but they are both very capable and competing hard with each other.
Yea he sounds pissed. But we're talking about Nintendo here...they just don't get it!!
@aaronsullivan interesting stuff. I always thought Unity was the (far) lesser engine, maybe because of it's humble beginnings and platforms (such as android) it was used on at first, besides it seemingly being the engine of choice for indies and other budding startups.
I also haven't seen any recent demo reel of the engine, so I have no comparative material to go up against the in my mind VERY impressive Unreal engine 4 tech demo.
In your professional opinion, would you say that both engines are equally powerful, or is there still a significant difference?
@GreatPlayer Don't speak for everyone.
Okay...this guy needs to just calm down, because the way he talked sounded very unprofessional.
Most of these comments are absolutely disgusting. He took things too far, but honestly I think he's absolutely right. It wasn't much of a problem that he couldn't receive a developer's kit, the main issue is that Nintendo won't even tell him the specs so either he'll have to gimp his NX port to make sure it'll work with the console after it releases or make the NX version from scratch once it's released.
Neither method is even remotely cheap to accomplish since he'll have to literally make two versions of his game or worse yet water-down his game for all consoles and devices. Also, just like the "big businesses" he's in it for the money as well..or do you think that indie developers should develop games as charity work?!
I totally understand his frustration, but those are some newbie comments.
"I want the goddamn devkits or at least proper hardware specs ideally 2 years before release"
Yeah, right ~
@TheRealThanos They excel at different things and change continually. For a high-end production with a 3D, detailed game with heavy use of customized shaders, Unreal Engine 4 is ahead. For a time it was much more specialized towards games like the Unreal games but it is much more general purpose. If I had a team of more than 20 trying to reach a AAA look I'd probably go UE4. If I was in a small enough team probably having to cover several roles on a game that was going to rely on a few key features I'd go Unity... But that's way too simple a summary really because they have different levels of maturity depending on platform. For instance, Microsoft had been partnering with Unity on Hololens — you get the idea.
@Yorumi Seriously? How's that even allowed?! 0_o
Real talk hurts
@Yorumi My apologies, why the fronk didn't Nintendo Life state this in the article? Seems like a very fundamental fact to omit from the article...
@Yorumi and besides all that, most of us should know better by now as far as Nintendo and "talking specs" is concerned...
@aaronsullivan Hmm, okay. Might be that to get somewhat of a clearer picture of the individual strengths of the engines in relation to NX I should maybe ask you what Nintendo IP would you use what engine for, or is that even a more difficult question?
Or is it something like Zelda and Metroid with Unreal and Mario and such with Unity?
@Neko_Ichigofan in case you're interested and want to know more, these are the links @Yorumi is talking about:
@TheRealThanos Wow, just wow! Thanks for the links!
@Neko_Ichigofan No problem, you're welcome.
@Yorumi You've summed this up perfectly. I think certain indie developers just get an inflated ego and think the world revolves around them after one successful game. Phil Fish is a perfect example of this.
But this particular guy is clearly detached from reality and is apparently unaware of how the industry works. There's nothing in his development history, or that of his studio, that should entitle him/them to an early-access dev kit from a platform holder they've never once expressed interest in. Like someone else already said, this guy is just feeling burned over being denied passage on the NX hype train.
@CHET_SWINGLINE Exactly, Nintendo does not need small studios such as this guy. This guy is probably on crack. What is Moon Studio, or Sun Studio?
@GreatPlayer Lolz I don't know about the crack part, but this guy does seem a little erratic.
Ori and the Blind Forest was better (considerably so) than anything Nintendo put out last year.
Unravel is a junky, clubky physics platformer with heart but not alot of polish.
Excitement is fine and well from a gamer's perspective, but this reeks of experience. Not making games, just the same exact experience every current and former fan has with the Wii U.
Is he frustrated? Yeah.
Is he a Nintendo fan not wanting to see the NX crash and burn? Yeah.
If the 2016 rumors are true, Nintendo's being awful selective as to who gets the devkits. They can get all the EA games they want, but they're going to need hundreds of devs to make this work.
Shunning anyone with the resume to make quality titles (and these guys are one of those studios) is a bit moronic of Nintendo, considering what they went through with the Wii U.
We get it, first party Nintendo games are pretty good and probably worth buying a system for. But talking with EA never got them very far last time around.
Nintendo needs a defibrilator but they're playing it off like the same old, same old is going to work.
I hate being so negative but Nintendo was losing every generation until they caught fire with the DS and Wii.
Sony caught fire with the PS2 and now the PS4.
The difference is how.
Solid tech, easy to develop for and a wide library of games. Versus flashy gimmicks, complex hardware and underpowered tech.
If Nintendo plays it safe, they'll lose. If they go with a gimmick, they'll lose.
If they prioritize handheld gaming and simply allow a hub style system where players can interact over a larger screen, they might succeed.
But they don't seem smart enough to figure out that they no longer get consoles. They're so far behind, they think they're winning.
Nintendo does not need third parties. All reviewers are wrong to say that Ori is good. The only good game last year is Mario Maker. Therefore, as like Wii U, NX does not require third parties.
As an additional point, I get people talking up his 'arrogance' or 'ignorance'. It makes sense, he doesn't seem likeable.
I don't like alot of people that I can still respect. This isn't Phil Fish talking. This is the head of a fairly sizeable studio.
Consider the points he raised but replace NX with Wii U.
EA drops support instantly. Konami, Capcom, Square Enix, Bandai Namco and others were mostly invisible. Activision backed off after a few releases and Ubisoft hasn't made an effort since Child of Light.
When the Wii U released it got ports. Madden. FIFA. Darksiders 2. Mass Effect 3. Batman Arkham City.
Then it gets 2 Zelda ports, a MH remaster and a Deus Ex port.
Which would be fine if those same devs were making new games too. Arkham City gave way to Origins. That's good. None of the others lead to anything. That's bad.
When I look at the PS4, it's different.
Dark Souls 2 to Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3. Uncharted Collection to Uncharted 4. Heavy Rain and Beyond Two Souls to Detroit.
On the X1, it was the Master Chief Collection to Halo 5. Gears of War Ultimate to Gears 4.
And let's not forget the big one: Tomb Raider to Rise of the Tomb Raider.
It's fine to re-release a game or to remaster it, as long as the pay off is a new and (hopefully) better game.
Nintendo hid the Wii U and got saddled with a host of these 'building' games and nothing happened.
Even that Deus Ex game is getting a follow-up, but again, Nintendo is being left out. Remasters, remakes and re-releases should only serve to introduce new gamers to a particular series. Not try and be a definitive experience. Only new games will sell hardware, something Nintendo needs to consider moving forward.
Wow. I know this is a Nintendo focused site and I'm used to seeing people here jump to the defense of Nintendo at the drop of a hat, but have you guys forgotten about the Wii U already? The fact that this is an "indie nobody"(even though their game won at least one category in the GOTY awards) is irrelevant because Nintendo lacking support is a serious issue.
The NX is going to need games to be successful! It's as simple as that.
@Gorlokk I'm probably one of the first people to criticise Nintendo whenever I need to. This has nothing to do with Nintendo however. I've you've read the posts than you should know that:
1) he's making the wrong assumption by assuming the NX comes out this year, which might very well be more than 1.5 years away.
2) he's own a very small indie studio and isn't important in any way for Nintendo.
3) because they only made ONE game, and it was for Xbox and PC, not even a Wii U port.
They have never shown any interest in developing for a Nintendo console and we know that Nintendo cannot hand out dev kits left and right. There are plenty of rumours that Nintendo is already talking with the big developers and I wouldn't be surprised if indie devs like Shin'en were part of that group as well.
This guy expect a dev kit day one, despite all of this. Is it that weird to think that the developers that supported the Wii U and 3DS are going the first people to get a dev kit?
We all know that whatever console Nintendo releases next needs third party support, but there are hundreds of other companies are that either more important or worked more closely with Nintendo in the past. They are going to be priority, because they're not going to hand out dev kits like candy.
So making one Xbox One "indie" game makes you a powerful and important dev?
I do agree that Nintendo needs as many devkits out there as they can though.
This guy sounds so salty and thirsty that it's actually kinda embarrassing.
I mean, what has this guy done for Nintendo that makes him think he's entitled to early dev kits, which are probably in short supply as it is?
@Gorlokk Yeah, but this article is coming from a two-bit dev that's done, like, ONE successful game on an X-Box console and is suddenly getting a big head, as if he's entitled to an early dev kit when they may be in short supply and reserved for bigger, more important names until the system is officially announced.
He just sounds salty that he's not getting preferential treatment, despite never having done anything for Nintendo to deserve it.
Yacht Club Games deserves a dev kit before this guy, honestly.
We really shouldn't be taking his side on this one, Wii U or no Wii U.[which, honestly, isn't that big a point, considering Wii U is why there are so many more indies with Nintendo now in the first place]
There are no developer-kits, because its just a smartphone!
Granted, this Mahler guy's tone is a bit obnoxious but he's right anyway.
About your 3 points;
1.) You have insider info about the NX release? For all we know, the NX could potentially launch this year. If it does than Nintendo is too late sending out sending out devkits!!
2.) Nintendo underestimating support of 3rd party developers...hhmmm...when have we heard that before? We've seen the failing success of smaller titles coming to the Wii U three years after their initial release on all the other platforms. If big 3rd party publishers don't invest into the Nintendo's platforms, you think that smaller studio's with less budget will? Nintendo should encourage and potentially even help small studios to develop for their platform. Sending out devkits is a huge priority, even if the specs aren't finalized.
3.) They made only one game, but a stunningly beautiful one! One that has won multiple prizes in 2015 and that Nintendo fans would want to play too!!
@Vriess This isn't about being right. ''Third party support is important'', my arse knows that. He's expecting a dev kit day one when they have never even supported a Nintendo system or had any intention to in the past. Any company that has ever supported Nintendo before has a higher priority than they have. Nintendo can't start handing out dev kits to everyone right away, if they did that, the home/handheld console would have been leaked by now.
I don't have insider info, but I'm not pretending to know when the NX is coming, but he is. That's his problem. For all we know it won't come out this year, and with every day passing, it's looking more and more like that's the case. Judging from the rumours, they just started talking with bigger developers and it's very unlikely that they're only handing them dev kits just now if they plan to release the console this year.
As I said earlier, I wouldn't be surprised if they are working with indie devs, but of course, those that have supported Nintendo's consoles in the past. He isn't one of them, too bad, he has to wait a little longer. No reason to throw a tantrum.
This developer needs to really grow up and act professional. The swearing and the hissy-fit, just shows that he is extremely immature, especially for a company that only has one game under their belts, and it's not even out on every console.
Nintendo would be dumb to release their dev-kits to everyone. They're enjoying the hype train right now, so why would they want someone else to leak the details on their next console, when they themselves want to do it. They're having fun pumping up their fans and others! I honestly can't wait until E3 to see what the console will be all about, and go from there on if they will have a success or a disappointment.
Also, for the sales through nintendo, most of them are due to the Amiibo's. And for someone who loved the Gamecube (yes, it was my favorite from that generation), the gamecube had many more titles available (all different parties) and many new franchises made by nintendo. The Wii U (even though I own and love it), doesn't really have many games that shine on it (Splatoon and Super Mario 3D World are nice, but they still don't truly shine as what they could). I just feel that there's one game that comes out on the Wii U each year, that is powerful, and the rest are real quickies (ones that have about 5 hours of enjoyment) made to fill droughts. I mean, Zelda U has been in development for the past 4 years and it still doesn't have a release date yet...which is why people think that they're going to do a Twilight Princess and have it as a launch for the NX.
The problem is that Nintendo needs the big ones.
If they can't get the big ones on board the little ones do not matter at all.
This guy has a serious attitude business. Why does he think he would get priority for a dev kit over
A) Nintendo's first party studios like Retro
B)Big third party like Ea
C)Médium sized studios like Platinum Games
D) Indie developers with good track on Nintendo's systems
He is all Hot air, Specially if he is a first party studio for Microsoft. Does he really think Nintendo will give him a developer kit that he can and will leak to a direct competitor?
@TheRealThanos Just because a game is an Xbox exclusive, doesn't mean that Microsoft own the company that made it.
In fact that'd be highly unusual. That's why I'm a little incredulous towards what you're saying.
Also I've seen this happen before. The internet warps things towards hyperbol. People just egg each other on, and before you know it, there's all sorts of unmitigated hate being directed towards whatever/whoever.
There's some important points in what he's saying, which have been lost in the rush to make a value judgement on the messenger, and not the message.
@Yorumi It just so happened - completely coincidentally - that I read his comments right after watching this vid, so my interpretation was almost certainly influenced by this.
Here's a similar vid about the lack of dev kits. It seems to be universal that dev kits are hard to come by and there is an overall level of frustration in the community, not just this one guy. So that's probably why I read him speaking for the community, not simply for himself.
BTW, I'm not a big fan of this guy, I am not promoting him nor giving him any credence that he speaks the truth, but I am a big believer that where's there's smoke, there's fire. And w/ NX all we have so far is smoke, not a sinlge flame anywhere, so I work w/ what I got.
There seems to be a lot of comments around how he shouldn't be asking for a Dev kit because 'he produced one game'. I have played and beaten Ori and honestly, it screams of Nintendo quality and games like that rightfully belong on a Nintendo console. It's this sort of fantastic quality that the system needs to continue attracting more people. They may be a newcomer, but they truly understand what made original Nintendo games great and I would only hope that Nintendo helps. After such a long dry spell with the Wii U, I want to see my favorite gaming company succeed again. We can't lose high quality developers like this, indie or not.
@GeminiSaint I'm a Nintendo fanboy through and through, but it's disappointing to see all these comments about Ori or the development team, simply because they haven't played it. The people behind Ori have a passion for games - and you are exactly correct, the game is a masterpiece. It and any future releases need to make it to NX.
@JamesCoote It has nothing to do with the game itself, Moon Studios is a Microsoft first party developer. I don't mind a healthy discussion every now and then and I also don't mind if we can't come to an agreement on all points, but it would be nice if you could get your facts straight before making a point.
In a previous comment I have already supplied information about Moon Studios and the guy himself:
It clearly states his company's current standing as a Microsoft 1st party dev, so that certainly raises the question what a Microsoft party would want with a dev kit?
Microsoft may allow the odd title every once in a while (I believe a DS title was the latest one) but I don't see Microsoft allowing its first parties to develop for Nintendo on a regular basis in any shape or form.
@rjejr I have a very strong feeling that in this case it's more like crying wolf than "where there is smoke"...
There are several semi-confirmed rumors that Nintendo is going to or wishes to supply companies that weren't able to get their hands on a hardware dev kit with a software package/SDK that should tide them over and should enable them to start programming.
Maybe there's more to the story here, but that could also very well be on his side of the pond. Why would Nintendo refuse developers if they were so actively pursuing them before? Maybe he didn't meet all the requirements, or maybe something else is going on which could be why he hasn't heard anything yet.
And great as his game might be (and to be honest, it actually IS a very good game, and I love the art style too) he may still be of less importance to Nintendo because they really need to get the big parties back first (and they are probably the ones that have gotten the hardware dev kits) so indies and smaller developers will be next in line.
Maybe they'll send him a message next week and this whole rant will blow over. (or maybe he has now insulted Nintendo and he will not get anything at all. And since he also mentioned the other two parties, that may also not go down all too well)
In the end all I'm saying is that I truly hope that this guy will have some more success, the talent is definitely there and Ori shows he can make a cool game, but he really needs to work on his professionalism as far as posting messages on the internet goes, since it will almost definitely reflect badly onto the company.
@Yorumi @TheRealThanos Well I already said I woudln't give him 1 if I were Nintendo in my original post (never bite the hand that feeds you), but that doesn't mean there isn't some truth - in general - to what he says. Nintendo is (probably) limiting and/or making it extra hard for devs to get dev kits of he NX, possibly b/c Ntineod feels too much info got leaked about Wii U. (This is what happens when you give me the ok to watch conspiracy theorist leakers on Youtube.). Just b/c I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't following me.
Salty... But he's not wrong.
@Yorumi Well they need to hand out dev kits to somebody, no dev kits, no games. I would make sure the Shovel Knight and Runbow guys each had one to keep them loyal. And WayForward.
@Yorumi And don't you think that makes some of the other smaller devs upset? Just b/c they aren't stupid (or brave, take your pick) enough to bad mouth Nintendo in public doesn't mean behind closed doors some of those smaller devs who have been supporting the Wii U - this guy hasn't, but others have - aren't upset to be left wondering what NX is and how they are supposed to make a livelihood - b/c if you are a small company making videogames that is likely your livihood- on a console they don't even know what it is going to be, much less have dev kits for it? (sorry for that extremely long sentence)
If Nitneod withholds dev kits for NX from all their supportive Nindie teams - Nintendo starting calling them Nindies - then maybe some of those Nindie teams decide to go make games for PC and PS4 instead. How long are they supposed to wait? They need dev kits to make a living. And I'm wiling to bet that there are more Nindie teams wishing they had a dev kit than actually do, they are just smart enough to keep their mouths shut.
People must be getting desperate at this point. Nintendo has been giving dev kits out to major publishers for a while, and as soon as one indie developer is kept in the dark, people see it as "herp a derp, no 3rd party support again". I understand the frustrations about the NX being kept a secret, but one indie dev not getting a dev kit is no indication Nintendo hasn't learned. Sony and Microsoft didn't give Indies dev kits until their new platforms were revealed either, so calm down, this is nothing new, not is it something exclusive to Nintendo.
Well... as upset as the guy is, he has a point. You can't make promises when you don't even know if a console can't handle the game you created.
Now I know we're all Nintendo fans and will always defend Nintendo, but we can only be mad at people who have the dev kits and still won't make games for our consoles. You want Ori And The Blind Forest on NX? Fine, give me an NX dev kits and I'll tell you if I can pull it off. It's like asking me if I can drive a bus without me even knowing how different a bus' controls are to a car's controls.
@Yorumi "they'll get them in due time,"
I know that, you know that, even they probably know that, but it's human nature to want things now - immediate gratification. And in case you missed it, the entire country has gone insane. (My wife and I can't wait to watch Trump and Hillary on stage debating - Trump: Are you bleeding right now, Hil? Hillary: Will you just shut the [email protected]#$ up Donald!! - Gonna be hilarious.)
You know at some point one of us is going to have to stop replying.
Of course he can make a pitch. He can't, however, promise a port.
That's the main problem with the lack of dev kits.
@AlexSora89 And besides what @Yorumi has said: have you any idea what a dev kit costs? They're not just going to hand them out to anyone, and most of us know that Nintendo is quite strict with its policies and its selection process.
Obviously Nintendo has to relax that stance a bit to get more support and I'm pretty sure that mr. Kimishima is hard at work to make the necessary changes, if his reputation is worth anything, but things like that don't just happen overnight.
But it is also quite logical that if Nintendo truly does have something new and unique in their hands with the NX that they are still going to be somewhat careful, especially with a company that is first party for one of their competitors...
I'm glad Nintendo is keeping NX a secret, will be a nice surprise when we finally find out what it is. Let's just hope it's what people want (including me).
@rjejr You do know that this developer is
a Germanan Austrian, right? He probably won't be all that affected by the good ol' US of A going crazy...
@TheRealThanos Yeah I know, (though I thought he was in the UK). Did you happen to read post #1? I'm just covering myself.
And had I known the guy was Austrian, well I wouldn't have even bothered, that explains a lot. The Devinator.
@rjejr "I need a dev kit. NOW!!! I have to get back to the chopper!"
@rjejr You should take a look at his picture on this page:
Looks kinda angry by default...
Wait, was it a Microsoft exclusive? Because I knew just as much, but what the guy said made me think otherwise.
Sorry, didn't notice your comment. I have no idea a dev kit can be so much more expensive than the hardware itself, but I'm aware of my ignorance whenever I'm not hastily writing comments.
Then why would the Ori dev say that--oh don't tell me he just trolled us. I thought the trolling era was at an end the day Phil Spencer stepped in.
@rjejr Oh, and I did see post nr.1 (I'm one of those guys that actually reads ALL the comments before he types something that ten others before him have already said) but I never quite pictured you as an angry old, excuse me: middle aged man...
(and now I have to think of the angry videogame nerd, darned... )
@AlexSora89 Think nothing of it. No offense taken, so no need to apologize.
If you're curious, just try and find some older consoles' dev kits on eBay or something. The prices are sometimes ridiculous, especially if they are in mint condition.
@Yorumi I don't know about newer dev kits, but some of the older ones did have disc burners in them. The ones I'm sure of are the dev kits for Sega Dreamcast, original Xbox, PS2, and even the Wii. (just had to look up a whole bunch of them because somebody asked me about them on another site)
Confirmed, then - it was ignorance on my part.
And yep, unless the guy tried to contact Nintendo and discuss dev kits and stuff (enough to justify all the steam he's blowing off), he's trolling.
@Yorumi To my understanding it was just to be able to burn a beta/RAW version of a game and test it on the actual console, at least back then it was. Nowadays, they may well test it on the dev kit itself in some virtual environment, but I don't know.
In case you are curious or want to brush up on that knowledge, here is the list of dev kits and links that I posted in the discussion on the other site:
@Yorumi I didn't disagree with you on that, just with the disc burner part.
I had to smile when I read 4GB drive... lol (couldn't have left them too much space, what with all the dev tools and a 1.2GB Dreamcast disc image on there too)
Discussing dev kits with my bizarro universe, Xbox-loving self of a friend, he said [email protected] offers free devkits. True, Xbox One is not a console all we know about is a codename, but it still says a lot...
@TheRealThanos "I need a devkit. NOW!!! I have to get back to the chopper!"
Oh man, thats hysterical, thanks. They should have used that as the subtitle for the article.
In case anybody else is wondering.
And I don't think Spoony sees me as angry, more cranky. We have a history, but I'd guess you'd have to ask him.
And that guys American History X photo, he'd be voting for Trump. Right candidate, wrong country.
@AlexSora89 Yup, but those aren't physical boxes but SDK's, so software packages. Microsoft has the capital to be able to do that and make it into a construction that will in the end make them money in return.
And perhaps there's something of a free to start clause in there since they are offering support and tools on top of the package as well.
There are rumors that Nintendo are also going to hand out SDK's for parties that missed out on the physical dev kits, but even if that's true they will probably not be for free. Still, definitely a whole lot cheaper than a physical dev kit, though...
@Frank90 I hope not. Having to wait another year for a new console would be a pain in the ass.
For both me and Nintendo. Sure, release the NX in 2017, two years later the PS5 is announced...
@rjejr Well. that pic looks a whole lot friendlier than his own:
Nice that I was able to make you laugh.
If you thought that was funny, check out "Little Tortilla Boy" from Pablo Francisco on YouTube. Unless you've already seen it, of course...
Here, I'll save you the trouble:
Sorry for the bad video quality and the Swedish subs, but it's the most complete one I could find. He's not only doing Schwarzenegger, but also "the action movie narrator guy". You'll understand once you've seen it...
@TheRealThanos If Rubio does that in the debate tonight he has a shot next Tuesday. (What I wouldn't give for some real NX news.)
I understand his position, but the secrecy is only reason hardware manufacturers are willing to spend so much money on research and development.
Ori and the Blind forest is a beautiful and fun game, and I'd sure like to play it on Wii U. If they'd already been registered Nintendo developers with sucessful releases out, they've might've been a bit further up the secrecy ladder.
@Melkac Indeed, Nintendo complicated itself with this mid generation release. I'm on the fence about the hopes for NX, it'll be great, but the commercial success is a big "maybe", and I don't wanna be disappointed again like with the Wii U.
@rjejr Oh, and before I forget:
Guess the ball is definitely rolling now. The big N is doing another double release same as with the original TP.
And not to worry, the video is without voice...
We already know Nintendo HAS given out EARLY Dev Kits to certain Devs.
As has been reported on this site over the past few months, both Square Enix and Bandai said they already had the kits.
Bandai tweeted, 'NX is a HOME CONSOLE, first and foremost'.
The guy, and his team have never released on Nintendo systems, but expect to be at the top of the list when it comes to getting info and Dev Kits. It actually shows his lack of knowledge of how companies, especially console companies work.
@TheRealThanos I've gotten used to his voice, but now I can't get past his Illuminati intro music.
He's 100% right. Indie's have kept the Wii U alive.
@rjejr I have no idea what that should sound like. And how would you know, huh? Kind of suspicious... Maybe YOU are of the Illuminati. Now I REALLY have to get to that chopper...
@liveswired Yeah, 100% right off his rocker. And as has already been said many times in this entire thread, he's no Indie; he and his company are a Microsoft first party developer.
I don't know if indies have different dev kits, but I don't know how much sense giving indie developers more limited tools "because indies" would make. I mean, both Meme Run and Gunman Clive HD are technically indie games, but look at the different levels of effort that went into each one...
This is a rather... Sensational statement, coming from someone with barely any references or experience at all, but he's essentially right, Nintendo cannot afford to keep secrets from their future developers in 2016, especially after E3 comes and goes. Last year, yes, but they need to allow projects to start being made now. Nintendo is setting themselves up for a potential second Wii U situation.
@TheRealThanos I tried to join the Illuminati but they wouldn't accept me b/c I had bone spurs in my foot.
(Maybe I should just stay off the internet until after the election?)
@Yorumi Well, if his... "pedigree" is any indication, I wouldn't consider this guy to be one of Nintendo's future developers...
@rjejr Nope, now is the time to blow up on the internet about it! All the big candidates suck.
While this is a tired topic between us, and this guy doesn't add to my side of it at all since he knows nothing, I again stress that there has to be reasons that every single person commenting on NX assumes it's a home console and that it's launching in 2016. I'm not even going to bother to speculate on the "rumors from reliable sources" but it's not surprising they also support the above fact. Like the recent rumor about ZeldaU also coming to NX. As you may remember, these are the 3 points we went back and forth on in the thread a while back
I don't know why, but your (avatar? icon? whatever it's called) is totally awesome to me. Where do people here get all these awesome and uniques pictures of characters and stuff?
As for my own opinion of this, I would guess this is exactly what's going on:
1- They've realized how much they need 3rd party support for NX because of Wii U's failure.
2- They've identified all their targets from biggest to smallest and going down the list, having meetings, making deals and promises, etc.
3- This guy's company, likely to provide the system with only a game or 2 in it's entire lifespan, is probably somewhere around #1,000 on the priority list.
@Yorumi Welcome to how I feel about the mainstream/mass media in general.
The same thing applies here: MM loves drama, and anything adequately distracting. "Oh look, there's someone ranting and screaming who has done a thing (actually nothing of great importance). Let's go focus on them for 2 minutes, have everyone respond and watch/click (cha ching), and pretend like this is going to matter to everyone after the next 48 hours!" (All of the important stuff going on at that time, meanwhile, is almost universally ignored)
Journalistic objectivity in MM is virtually dead. Sorry. Gotta go to primary or alternative sources for that.
@rjejr Wise is he who heeds his own advice...
@TheRealThanos Well, if you are think about it, his words are a good thing: Now everyone, their mother, and their fake social media friends/shrinks knows what this guy is really like! No interviews or research needed, just search his history and there you go!
Unfortunately, NeoGAF is filled with supporters of "special-snowflakeism", so that's where this one came from.
@3MonthBeef Ouch, so now he's already getting flak out of official corners too. Guess we could have seen that one coming. It is like I said before; besides what anyone may think of this, it wasn't professional behavior for someone that is supposed to represent a company, especially if you've started with a really good game, because now both the company and his previous positive achievement will be forever tarnished. I expect to see some tweets from Microsoft execs next. Nintendo will keep quiet because they aren't likely to go and respond to things like this.
@Yorumi The solution would be Kim Kardashian breaking the internet AGAIN, but this time for real and we can all go back to our gaming magazines and enjoy our hobby without interference of all these idiots, save for the occasional one that has the balls to write a letter to complain to our magazine of choice...
The internet is indeed an open sewer, and "social" media certainly aren't helping things along. The anonymity of it all has given so many people a voice where they previously had little or none, and they feel totally liberated to spout all their nonsense and delusions without thinking about the possible effects of such rants. Society has gotten worse for wear because of it, even though you also meet some nice people online every now and then.
Overall, this community is pretty decent, and one I'd definitely miss if I would have to revert back to hard copy gaming info. Oh well, guess I'll just have to live with it and take the good with the bad, because I rather like visiting here and talking to you guys, even if it's only in text... (actually all we'd need is voice chat and a couple of beers (or other beverage of choice) to complete the picture)
@PlywoodStick Eh? Special-snowflakeism? That's a new one to me. Care to elaborate? The only "special" snow I have ever heard of is of the yellow kind...
Im getting sick of this @$#!%. I defend Nintendo all the time but this is getting retarded. just tell us wtf is going on. this secret crap is going to sink the system before it even gets released. This same crap happened with the wii u. All these negative articles scare away the average customer. The wii u is a great system but half of the gamers out there think its a hunk of junk because of all the negative press. wake up Nintendo I think we need some huge changes in management. I don't care what a guy did for the company 20 years ago. we need some fresh ideas.
@LetsGoRetro 2000 years ago many people thought the Earth was flat. I don't pay attention to what the majority thinks, because history has proven that more people doesn't always equal more brain power. In fact, many will just be repeating what the person next to him thought. Many will only have read an article or two on IGN and concluded that the NX is a home console coming in 2016 just based on that alone. Not a lot of people have actually put a lot of time and effort into this topic.
Despite this all, the vibe we're still getting from developers, large and small, is that nobody really has an idea of what the NX is.
Anyway, this article wasn't about that, so I won't continue much further. We'll revive that thread someday once we know more...
@LetsGoRetro Oh, well, thank you very much! That's the first time I've heard that! In actuality, this icon was made for me by one of my friends, for my YouTube channel. It's just been my thing ever since!
@Yorumi That would require relevant conflict analysis and proposals of resolutions, gathered from investigative journalism.
Yeah, that taps right into my gaming style. Final Fantasy and Zelda being the biggest influences to me and Xenoblade being one of my favorite current gen series. Good stuff
Sorry, but you'll probably get like 4 notices that I mentioned you, but it's because my computer went wacky while trying to type this and sent out 3 and 4 word responses.
Anyways, using your analogy, it'd be different if a bunch of aliens who had seen the earth came down and everytime we talked to them, they spoke as if the earth was a certain way. You can then make the logical conclusion that since those in the know assume something, it's true.
Every interview with people in the know, including higher up Nintendo officials, has shown that they only mention NX in relation to PS4, Xbox, etc. Never in relation to 3ds or Vita.
But, you're right, tired topic and we'll revive the thread when we know more. Take care.
@PlywoodStick All the little candidates ain't much better.
I'm blaming my fixation on 2 NYer's running. Though how Hillary made herself a NYer I'll never know.
@TheRealThanos 3MonthBeef described it above in full detail.
@PlywoodStick Okay... still find it all a bit "flaky" though... pun intended. I still don't see why humans are compared to snowflakes. Must be a modern day language euphemism...
@3MonthBeef that's basically just a rewording of what I said but with the 'but it would be awesome if...' being replaced with a dig at this dev.
It would be great to see Nintendo reach out to folks who make games as beautiful as Ori and the Blind Forest would it not? Of course it would! But the reality is they're likely focussing on known devs right now to ensure good partnerships and a decent launch line up for NX.
There I said it a third time but more concisely. Hope that helps.
@Frank90 The other option would be waiting and waiting until rumors of a PS5 start popping up, THEN begin working on the NX. But that simply isn't viable.
There hasn't really been anything currently said about the NX that bodes well for the thing. Nintendo no longer understands the gaming industry. They add a bit more power, but less than everyone else, and then go back to doing things the same way they did 25 years ago.
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