Video: TreeFall Studios Releases Its First Ever Developers Conference

Ain't feeling no hype.

I find it interesting that all these small Wii U eShop developers are forming a sort of coalition of bad games with all these collaborations. Maybe if they all got together to form one development team instead of contributing bad elements to each other's bad games, we might actually get something worthwhile out of them.

This stuff all sounds good. It probably won't be, but a man can dream.

Why on earth would someone buy a visual novel from the company that made The Letter. If that's any indication, they have no idea at all how to tell a story, and a VN is mostly story!

I hope this guy goes the @RCMADIAX route and stops making games soon, only to restart with a new focus on one solid title at a time. The way I see it, right now he's building up a lot of experience with games and how to make them, and he should take advantage of that knowledge. No point making tiny games forever, but I can see the strategy in it if a dev chooses to then go bigger.

@Prof_Clayton Is RCMADIAX going to focus a bit more? That's good...he's done some decent work (Block Drop U is kind of fun), I think if he focused a bit more he could make something that's really great.

The sarcasm is strong with this article. Bravo, @Damo

The first game in this video looks like one of those flash games where you "win an iPhone".
"Elodia" is hideous and the writing (from what we've seen so far) is dire: at best it can be described as generic, at worst juvenile.
The Maze still looks bad. You can polish a turd but...
Pitterpot and Cedar Acres look boring. I guess they have potential, but considering the developer...

One thing I have to highlight is the amateurish music and writing. The writing is riddled with poor grammar, punctuation errors and spelling mistakes. This would be OK in a regular game, where the actual gameplay is the focal point, but the guy's making a visual novel game and he writes like a child! The music is slightly better but still... dreadful. Simplistic beats and little originality; again, it seems like its been put together by a child.

All I can say is I'm glad Treefall games don't release in Europe. -_-

@9th_Sage Yeah I think he is planning on stopping releasing games around midway through this year and he'll then start on refocusing his works to one solid title. So we'll still get all his announced games this beginning of the year but then he'll start fresh from there.

@bro2dragons Good idea.

Psssh, who needs Animal Crossing on Wii U when you have Cedar Acres coming to Wii U?

do they even realize how bad their games are?

Everything about this video is bad,from the first second to the last.An ugly amateur looking logo,bad shaky vertical video (unacceptable),horrible font,beginning his 'Developer conference' with the most horrendous looking game of an awful bunch,a visual novel game with bad grammar and then his most ambitious game looking like a bad PS game with a title that somewhat annoys me.The only positive I can see is that hopefully none of his games will come to Europe.Fair play to the guy for showing the face behind the shovelware though because it's sure as hell I wouldn't.

Shovelware extraordinaire.

This is downright appalling. They're using the Wii U as a dumping ground for crap. This is a "studio" that could barely cobble together two utter travesties and, cripes I'm just flabberghasted. They're making how many games now? Five? Five games. Is this what Wii U owners want? To grasp at straws, so desperate for games that they'll accept virtually anything?

I've gone into the Miiverse and looked at how "fans" are talking about his wares, and I can't help but wonder if they have no standards at all for games or gaming. Nintendo fans shouldn't have to lower their standards so just to feel like they have games to play and support on their console. Nintendo fans, even those of you who adamantly hate my critical posting, deserve better than this. And frankly, this sets the bar so low for Wii U development, it makes the console and Nintendo look bad.

This is absolutely atrocious, and I will not be supporting any of this crap. I am a big proponent of supporting gaming and indie developers--but not when their goal is just to be piling high a mountain of shovelware. The Wii U may be struggling with filling out it's library, but that doesn't mean I'm lowering my standards to scooping sh!t into my hands.

They put the word "conference" to shame here.
Also Pitterpot looks like the only one with a shred of potential.

@Quorthon I agree, this is ridiculous. I wouldn't say the wii u is short in the games department (or at the least, the XBONE and ps4 are much, much worse).

How can he name his game in such a horrible way? I mean, Maze? Pitterpot?

I wish Nintendo did something about this developer, it's giving the eShop the bad publicity it doesn't need

For a developer named TreeFall studios they sure aren't very good at drawing trees... Or anything else really.

Also, maybe he should spend less time naming his team "branches" and use that creativity on the games instead.

@Kasplat

The PS4 And XBO are actually not "much, much" worse. Keep in mind, all that 3rd party support the Wii U doesn't have, they do have. Of the known titles for 2015, the PS4 monstrously dominates the list, with the XBO in second, and that covers multiplatform and exclusives. The PS4 has more exclusives than the XBO and Wii U combined.

They have been in the market one year less than the Wii U, but their libraries are growing way faster. Nintendo's Wii U line-up looks promising for 2015 (and the variety is very good), but it's unfortunately lacking pretty much everywhere else.

Honestly, the only thing I've felt I want "way more options" in on the PS4 is in shmups, but that will fill out in time.

Here's a handy "known" list if you're curious: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2014/12/17/2015-video-game-release-schedule.aspx

A recent GDC poll revealed more devs currently working on PS4 than XBO, and way more on PC (no surprise there). Wii U apparently didn't factor into it, which bugged me. I checked a few articles and couldn't find any mention of the number or percentage of devs working on Wii U.

Oh these guys should at least get some skill or some type of experience before they do this?Cause wow this is, i can't even say it.

I give these guys credit for putting effort into their dreams and being willing to become better developers.... that being said, based off the video shown I recommend they improve in all of their skill areas before continuing to release onto the Wii U.

The effort or the talent level is lacking in the series of games that I had just witnessed. I hope to see more polish products that seem more than 5 percent done, or don't waste our time. There are way to many talent developers that would not spam games made at this quality.

Again I like the effort of getting visibility, but the overall quality or lack there of does not justify the attention these games are getting.

It's officially terrible.

@Quorthon

First of all, thank you.

Everything is complete garbage. I think what bothers me the most about this developer (other than the obvious) is their lack of understanding color. There's a part of the balloon game with a city in the background with bright yellow lights. Then you have bright yellow coins (or whatever they are) floating up and down, it makes my eyes hurt just watching. All they would have to do is make it a more golden color, maybe even a slight gradient. Or better yet, give the background some dimension (gasp! how dare I!) with multiple plains with various degrees of opacity. Yet I doubt they would do it because it's amateur hour over there. I am not a video game designer, but I am a graphic designer/animator by trade so you can take my word for it.

Then the story book "game" has the most hideous and hard to read font imaginable. They should have picked a thicker font, less distracting font. Again, this is my designer impulse kicking in.

The "Maze" update has him jumping around like an insane person, with no context whatsoever as to what he was up to. It made me sick just watching. He could have just simply said they fixed the camera, and I think everyone would have believed him, instead of giving us all a headache by showing us.

The PitterPot game looks like it has no proper physics whatsoever. Even in his demo, I noticed the character doesn't walk or jump as it should. The animation is just too stiff.

I'm going to be honest with you, I couldn't even watch the last demo, so I can't hold a conversation about it. I was just so frustrated by the end of the presentation I completely lost interest (negative interest, if you couldn't tell already, haha) and turned it off.

Lastly, I found Eli on miiverse (I just happened to see this post when I was mindlessly on it) and I called him out on possibly the worst introduction in the history of everything. Did he seriously record it with his phone?! Vertically no less too! The black bars on the sides are longer than a football field. There's just nothing professional about it. Garbage, garbage, garbage. We don't deserve this. Can we call them scam artists now?

FYI I have seen your lengthy (but well thought out of course) replies to my prior posts. I am in the middle of digesting them so I can properly reply back to you. I have enjoyed our Nintendo talks, even if we're butting heads slightly.

@MoonKnight7

Ha, pertaining to our older posts, I've got no problem with disagreeing on certain courses of actions. For instance, I can't say if Nintendo will go third party or not, I can only point out disturbing similarities between where they are now, and where Sega and Atari were before they stepped down.

A hearty conversation, even in disagreement, is all well and good, especially if it aids in expanding or dispelling certain viewpoints, or if I've had a fallacy there I didn't realize.

Blatant denial of facts, knee-jerk defenses of items being criticized, responding from ignorance--that's where I start to lose patience and my potential hostility increases. I've quite enjoyed our back-and-forth, regardless of differing opinions on some things. I only wish we had a PM system on this site to make it easier to track!

Now, your post here brilliantly spotlights how Treefall studios (whatever makes up this mess), lacks any semblance of thoughtful design or understanding of gaming. Colors and shapes matter. The yellow coins on a yellow background comment immediately reminded me of a friend of mine--you can find him on Facebook for Astral Gunners, a shmup he and his brother are making.

They gave a showing of it at last week's IGDA meeting, and talked about the design process of making a shmup, and the careful decision-making they put into merely choosing colors of bullets and backgrounds in order to ensure player attention is driven toward enemy bullets and not their own bullets or getting lost in backgrounds.

I don't see even any of this rudimentary thought put into anything from Treefall. There are dazzling visuals, logical visuals, and assaulting the senses. Eli seems interested only in the latter, and not in a good way.

Wow, so much negativity around here.

Always, none of these look good, but I can at least appreciate the fact that their trying to make games. I'll check one of these out if the price is pretty cheap

@anthonysea

"Always, none of these look good, but I can at least appreciate the fact that their trying to make games."

I don't mind if they make games either, but they need to cut the amateur hour over there. I don't design video games, but I am an artist by trade, and there's just so much wrong with everything they have slated for release. Basic things too, like color and fonts. If you're interested, read my prior post. So when you say:

"I'll check one of these out if the price is pretty cheap."

I encourage you to really think about that before you do, cause I can tell you right now, they will be cheap. I don't want an eshop with garbage games like this.

@anthonysea

It's not negativity, it's reality. These guys are crap and they're selling crap. This is amateur hour in a game design class, but they want you to spend your money on it, and yes, $2 can be wasted.

Remember, every dollar you spend is a vote for the world or marketplace that you want. When you spend money on this crap, even if it's only one or two dollars, it is a vote that you have placed saying that this is what you want in your eShop.

Let's not turn the eShop into Google Play or the iOS App Store.

@Quorthon

Hmm that's very interesting, I'll look into that, thanks. I don't doubt that there is a whole process for picking game colors. All of that is so important to anything visual, even proper web design is supposed to follow these "what's important" rules.

Agreed, Eli and crew seem to just pick a color at random, and run with it. But what really, really bothers me is they just don't see why yellow on yellow is a bad thing. They should be able to look at that and say, "Hmm I can't see the coins floating by cause it's yellow on yellow." Assaulting the eyes is a perfect way to put it, and it really grinds my gears.

@JJtheTexan

Outstanding post.

I'm all for giving new devs the benefit of the doubt early on, but Treefall (and RCMADIAX) have burned through that in my opinion. Both "studios" are clearly more interested in a quick buck and churning out shovelware than any amount of artistic integrity or crafting gaming experiences that clearly matter to them.

This saddens me on the state of the eShop.

@MoonKnight7

If I had to guess, I'd say the reason they put yellow on yellow is a blatantly amateurish design mentality of "hey, this is a funny way to add difficulty or challenge," when really, it's just going to annoy and jerk players around.

I experienced this early on when my team and I were first fleshing out our game--we had a guy that was absolutely terrible with ideas. It taught me that you can teach the technical side of game design, but not necessarily good ideas or gamer-friendly challenges. He wanted to implement ideas that would not only have broken the gameplay, but would have been frustrating for anyone playing the game.

It didn't help that he didn't even understand the basic genre. Eventually, he created hostility in the group with a piss-poor attitude and we wasted a month incorporating Xbox 360 elements into the game for a contest he found, but didn't read anything about it because it was for XNA, not Unity. Then he left when it was obvious the hostility was impossible to ignore. To cap it off, he basically wanted us to make the decision for him to leave the group and f*ck that guy, I'm not making his life choices for him. A real shame as he was somewhat pivotal in helping the team come together.

If you don't like his games, don't buy them. I think some of these have potential.

@DiscoGentleman

Or would he eat the ruined steak if they told him it was now only $2?

They're getting kinda better, albeit with teeny-tiny babysteps and considering where they started off from...

The thing is, these "games" just shouldn't be on the eShop. Shovelware incarnate. There are tons of developers out there making actual playable, good games which may never see the light of day. I want those. Not this.

@Quorthon

"If I had to guess, I'd say the reason they put yellow on yellow is a blatantly amateurish design mentality of "hey, this is a funny way to add difficulty or challenge," when really, it's just going to annoy and jerk players around."

I'll be honest with you, I hadn't thought of that, and I believe you're right. That's certainly a cheap shot to the poor saps who buy this game.

Sorry to hear about your former co-worker. That sounds like it was a difficult chapter in with your business. I have always had the mentality of, it's ok if you're not full of creative ideas, but you need to own up to it and trust your creative co-workers to make the right choices. In my own business environment I have to work with someone above me who doesn't have a creative bone in his body, but he acts like he does (but has technical know-how). It's quite frustrating, and makes it all the harder to do something you know is creatively wrong to begin with. So I kind of understand what you're talking about. Not with game design, but just in general.

As someone who is trying to be an amateur game developer, I can't help but feel embarrassed for the Treefall guys when I watch this video. I see all these mistakes they are making, both in game development and in the presentation of their ideas, and I think they are either willfully ignoring them or are somehow blind to them. I don't know which is worse. I find it hard to criticize them though, because I see them as people who are just starting out and trying to figure out how to do things.

That's not to say that I think the negative attention toward them is unwarranted, just that I find it difficult to be so harsh myself. I think seeing this reminds me in some ways of myself, when I was much less wise, and I wanted to unleash my creative output on the world, because I tried so hard with it that I was sure everyone would love it.

Also, kind of unrelated, but from the same crappy-game-dev's perspective, I'm finding this conversation between @MoonKnight7 and @Quorthon fascinating. It has given me some things to think about in terms of game design.

Send a message with your wallet and don't buy the games if they don't appeal to you once they're finished. We certainly don't need Nintendo stopping content - that's just a step back toward the days of WiiWare, when most of us complained the opposite.

Maze is a pretty good game btw. I won't defend The Letter, but Maze is enjoyable and worth checking out.

@Rasgar

It's a bit of a conflict. I want to give the benefit of the doubt, and I do for all new entrants, but this convinces me that they don't actually know what they're doing and clearly have no formal education, and are simply bad at understanding game design concepts.

Ultimately, what they're doing makes them look bad and makes the eShop look like an unregulated mess. I have no confidence in them at this point.

I recently attended a local event for indies to show off their games, and I played a couple decent ones, one really impressive title, and a bunch of shameful crap. Ours looked very professional compared to the lot there, and was running on actual game hardware.

@Rasgar

Trust me, we certainly do not want to discourage you from your own games. I'm happy you said, "It has given me some things to think about in terms of game design."

We're just saying little things go a long way. We all appreciate good design, even if it isn't noticed. Arguably, a good design is one the public never knowingly pays attention to. Color and fonts go a long way for anything visual. Just general thought is all we're asking for.

As you can see, @Quorthon has done most of the legwork here, and knows more about game design than I do, but I can easily point out the tragic youtube-like quality of their presentation. It just made me cringe the whole time. A main goal of any company is to make yourselves seem bigger than you actually are. Everything they showed just felt like "I work in my basement." It may be accurate, and that's fine, we all have to start somewhere right? But for the sake or everyone, try to hide that as much as possible.

Best of luck to you with your games.

@MoonKnight7

I don't feel discouraged, quite the opposite actually. Your discussion has helped to shape my opinion about the Treefall presentation. As I watched it, it felt wrong, and it made me cringe. But reading the comments here has really helped me pin down what felt "wrong" about it. And what things I shouldn't do myself.

I'm more of a programmer than a designer (I work as a web developer), but I do game development by myself. Being in this kind of environment, I notice little things that do/don't work, whether it be from our designer or just other sites out on the web. And I find that this skill translates well into game development.

I doubt any of you would believe me but I know Eli and some of the members of his team. I went to a couple of game design classes with them the past couple of semesters. I had no idea they had this many projects going on at once.
I just assumed that they were only working on Pitterpot when I saw them working on the main character a few months back. One of the problems in our class was that we always seemed to bite off more than we could chew in terms of making a complete polished game within the time frame given but, that's a different matter entirely...
Anyway i'll give them props trying to put some games out; that's something I probably won't do.

PitterPot looks like something I'll be interested in...for a TreeFall game.

HYYYYPPEEE!!! But seriously, kudos to TreeFall, I wish you all the best in your endeavors!

Honestly, I was pretty impressed with this. For an indie dev that started in 2012 by himself with Flash games, he is coming pretty damn far. Loving all the collaborative work that is happening with the NintIndie Dev Family.

Can't wait to see more of what's in store.

@MoonKnight7

Your point reminds me of testing at Activision. I was on the Xbox 360 team at the height of "Kinect is a thing" hype, and we had to test 4 Kinect games. It helped me to understand what defines a good motion-controlled game--similar to your note on the color design. You may not be able to put your finger on it, but you could tell something was wrong.

For Kinect, a "good" game was one where you never really noticed the motion controls--they worked and you were actually just playing the game. Rapala for Kinect (an incredibly bizarre game), was one that really worked. Cabela's Adventure Camp, on the other hand, constantly reminded you "this is a motion control game, and none of those motions you're doing work."

@Rasgar Also, I'd like to say, if you are able, look up IGDA--the International Game Developers Association. There is a chapter in most major cities, and you can generally attend meetings for free. My local chapter meets once a month, there is generally a small project shown at the start, and then a larger project or presentation after that. We have Big John Games here, who developed a lot of 3DS eShop games, and it's been fascinating seeing how other guys in the industry work, lay out their concepts, or just the weird experimental ideas that are being done.

You can meet people at these meetings (obviously) and get a lot of real-life information on gaming and the industry. For any new developer, I cannot stress enough how important and informative these meetings can be. My team showed our game there when it was still very much in it's pre-alpha state, and we got a lot of great questions and feedback. This is one place where it's worthwhile.

And use spreadsheets for your design documents. I made a mistake and wrote our original design doc in Word and it's difficult to navigate and understand everything. The next game (and several other concepts) are all in Xcel.

IGDA chapters: http://www.igda.org/?page=chaptersprofessional

The Global Game Jam is taking place in a week or two, and that is also a great way to meet people. It's fun, but very tiring. Here's a taste: http://2013.globalgamejam.org/2013/earth-pulse

I'm not interested, but I guess I have to agree that all of those games look better than The Letter. Although yeah, that's not saying much.

For some reason I just got a migraine.

STOP!! In the name of all things sacred, just. STOP!!! Do NOT give this joke of a developer the attention. It does not deserve it, their games are straight up awful at worst (The Letter is the worst Wii U game I've played to date), and I'll stick my neck out to condemn TreeFall Studios.

If it has fans, okay, fine, but count me out. But I will say that getting any game out of pity or with the false mentality that "These guys at least deserve my money just because they made an unpolished game from a small time, from scratch" only goes so far before the buyers are part of the problem.

Am I the only one that enjoyed the Letter?

@Mus1cLov3r From what everyone said, pretty much. I never played it though, so i can't really judge it, but still.

Shame. I was expecting a Smash Bros. clone. :/

It hurts so much because this is not a case of them being cynical devs who make shoddy ports or movie licence games for a quick buck, but rather, these games are the best they can do!
It's so cute how they're trying so hard.

They're obviously very enthusiastic and hope to become better devs, but I think it was a bad move to start releasing stuff this early and for such a high-profile platform as Wii U.
They should've acquired more experience and studied more to build up their workmanship and then attempted to make a good game.

I study video games and the first thing we were told was that your first TEN games will be crap. So maybe TreeFall's eleventh game will be something decent, haha!
I sincerely hope that these guys will be able to continue making games and pursuing their dreams. It's sadly not a given that you will be able to support yourself and your family by following your passions.^
I'm afraid for myself that I won't be talented enough in the future for this kind of a job.

Making games is no easy job!

I know I wouldn't buy any of these games, but I'm not about to poke fun at this studio until I can do better, which I never will be able to. If everyone who's talking poo here could program better, why don't they!!

@anthonysea That's too bad...

There has been one update to The Letter so far and another is coming soon, but I do wish he would focus more on improving that game instead of spreading himself too thin on other projects. It's really not an awful game, just needs some more content.

@beautifulstrong good question. I guess you're right that it isn't nice to talk bad about someone else's game if you can't do better...

So considering your last comment on a Nintendolife article before this was (in regards to Mario Party Island Tour) "Island tour was horrible. A sign that mario party is now doomed to be boring from now on. SAD!!!"... When are you planning to release your own party game that's better?

@KoiTenchi By that logic, are you holding a new indie studio to the same standards as Nintendo? Surely you see the difference!

Nintendo is at a whole different level for a multitude of reasons. We hold them at far higher standards, which warrants different criticisms.

Speaking for myself of course, but I imagine that's what was originally meant.

@reali-tglitch

"Can't wait to see more of what's in store."

If you want to speed up the waiting period, you could take a look in the nearest garbage bin!

@RCMADIAX

"All this arguing about quality and stuff is getting ridiculous. Do you really have nothing better to do with your time than to tell people how they should be making THEIR games? Let them do what they want, you don't like it than don't buy it and move along. Getting upset and carrying on pointless conversation that gets brought up in basically every article from an individual developer is getting old."

I'm sorry to disappoint, but TreeFall brought this up themselves when they released this video to the world. I believe they want us to hold conversations about it. Arguably, they don't want the bad criticism, and that's fair, but that's the breaks. I take this video for what it is, and it's amateur hour, in more ways than just game design.

"Everyone has their own method of making games. Time to move on people, cause the "Nintendo eShop has quality issues" record is getting overplayed."

I am personally tired of another overplayed record. That is the "aww, look they're trying."

I fully believe in giving everyone a shot. Please believe me when I say this, as it is not just a rant for the sake of ranting. The Letter was a complete embarrassment, and they made bank off of it, clearly. It wasn't because people saw the creative spark, this was mostly because people wanted to see just how bad it was. It would be different if there was some sort of creativity, but indeed, it was just bad. His "story" would have caused him to flunk on the first day of Creative Writing 101. At best, it should have remained in a portfolio and not for the world to see.

Let's set aside Nintendo making the eshop bar so low to begin with. The heart of the debate remains, is it ethically acceptable to use the eshop as a testing ground for them to learn the ropes of game design? You say yes, and that it's smart to do so. I say absolutely not, and that from an ethical standpoint, it's ripping off people's hard earned money. This is what school is for. Just because someone CAN make a game, does not mean they SHOULD release it to the world. @Quorthon said it best, "This is amateur hour in a game design class, but they want you to spend your money on it, and yes, $2 can be wasted." You may not like what he says, but at least he's wholeheartedly honest.

I'll be the first to tell you that I do not design games, but before you stick it to me that I don't know what I'm talking about, please read my original comment (#25). Given your frustrated reaction, I take it you already did. We shouldn't have to play watchdog and point out everything wrong with the presentation. Trust me, I didn't want to do it, but it was bad enough that I felt it needed to be said. You see it as being harsh, but I see it as being truthful. It was youtube quality at best. We're talking about basic stuff here. Things like showing two different logos during the presentation, him jumping around like a five year old in his Maze update, and good heavens, why on earth would you film your intro with a phone?! Vertically no less! It was equivalent of a selfie. I don't mean this to be rude, but it wasn't a flattering view. All of this is reflective of their game making process. There's just no creative thought. They need a crash course in how to present their games, because this was cringe worthy, and not good for their brand.

Speaking of which, they are clearly biting off more than they can chew. They are not good enough to be working on 5 games at once. What's going to happen is we will get 5 half baked efforts. Whole baked in terms of what they can do realistically given their own deadlines, but half baked in terms of overall quality.

"This is the new normal, get used to it."

There's a reason I don't visit the app store anymore and it's because 99% of it is garbage. I don't want the eshop to have the same future. Is that so wrong? I find that it is worth discussing, and I'm not going to just sit by and watch it happen.

At least he wore a collared shirt.

I'm honestly always excited about 3D platformer titles. Can't wait to see how this one shapes up.

@MoonKnight7 "I say absolutely not, and that from an ethical standpoint, it's ripping off people's hard earned money."

You do realize that people are free to either purchase or ignore these games. How exactly are TreeFall, RCMADIAX, or others ripping people off?

Maze is $2,99 and well worth it imho. Toss n Go is 99 cents, again well worth it. You are free to ignore these games, but others choose to purchase them, and end up enjoying them. It really is that simple.

@TG1

The ripping off I am mentioning is not in terms of what people elect to do, but in terms of what TreeFall is giving them. These belong in a portfolio and not for purchase. Generally, people can't ignore something that's cheap. I find they are being taken advantage of whether they care to see it or not.

My quote is taken out of context as it sits, so yes, you are right. If people buy garbage, by golly, TreeFall is allowed to keep giving it to them. That's capitalism for you, but let's sideline the legalities and talk about ethics. By "ripping off," I mean, does TreeFall have the right to sell "games" while they learn the basics of game design? This is something school is for. Or better yet, in reference to The Letter, do they have the right to release a game that isn't even finished?

Nintendo says yes, obviously, but again, I'm looking at this from an ethical standpoint, regardless of if people buy it or not. I just want people to really think about this before they purchase anything from them, because of the message it sends.

I personally find that people are just saying they enjoy them, and aren't really giving much thought into what enjoyment should be. Or they just look at it as, well it was just a dollar. In other words, they're just being nice because the developer is a "nice guy." Fair enough, as I can't think for other people, nor what they think is enjoyable. I do however, find it highly debatable, and question someone's term of enjoyment, if someone says they actually liked The Letter.

I can't be that nice. What they showed in this video looks flat out terrible. I cringed for 10 minutes straight at their amateur presentation, and it's contents. I couldn't even watch the last 2 reveals, because they caused me to have a headache, and I felt sick by the end of it.

"How exactly are TreeFall, RCMADIAX, or others ripping people off?"

For the record, I never mentioned RCMADIAX, I was merely talking to said person representing them. You have made that parallel yourself and are putting words in my mouth. I am specifically talking about TreeFall, and TreeFall alone. There certainly are similar parallels to the ethics of RCMADIAX, but let me be clear, I never called them out in this thread, of which I find to be a low point for the eshop. I don't appreciate your quoted sentence. RCMADIAX at least puts a little more effort into their games, even if it isn't that much more. They allow for a separate discussion entirely.

Fair enough I suppose, as long as you recognize what you classify as enjoyment may very well different from others. In the case of Maze at least it's clear that's the case.

Apologies if If I took you out of context. Your statement is pretty dogmatic though. No hard feelings, just very different points of view evidently, which is fine. All the best.

@TG1

Of course it's dogmatic, but it is truthful, and I believe it brings up a valuable discussion worth discussing. No hard feelings.

@RCMADIAX

THIS IS THE NEW NORMAL?

Hey guys, set the bar LOW, make it the new NORMAL. That'll teach those stupid CONSUMERS.

Nobody is telling you how to make your game, we're calling you on your bullsh!t. I already pointed out that you had the gall to sell a Construct 2 tutorial (Spikey Walls), and that was pretty damn low, bordering on contempt for your audience.

You want to act like quality doesn't matter? Tell me that for literally any other facet of your life. You bet your ass it does.

@TG1

People are always free to choose, but like the end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, you must choose wisely.

Every dollar you spend is a vote for the world you want. Every dollar you spend on crap that wouldn't even survive a critical view during a job interview is a vote you've made for the eShop you want. Indeed, buy it if you want to help edge the eShop closer to a Google Play swampland, or don't if you don't.

But don't act like others can't express their opinions and discontent with this drivel. I did not spend $350 on my Wii U to play empty, half-baked dice games. I have actual dice in my home. I didn't buy the Wii U to waste my money on games so poorly conceived that they shouldn't even appear on a demo reel.

Oh, it's only $1 or $2? Guess what, so was Gunman Clive, and that game was polished, original, creative, and respectful to the customer. A quarter pound hamburger at McDonald's is cheap, too, but I bet any one of you would go up and ask for another one if you found a hair or band-aid in the bloody thing. You wouldn't sit there and eat your hairy hamburger and tell yourself it's okay because it's cheap.

@MoonKnight7 Brilliantly illustrated points. Indeed, Treefall asked for this by releasing the, er, "developer conference." I am also constantly baffled by the people claiming enjoyment, as if their understanding of video games is so uneducated that any old interactive thing will do. Eli from Treefall clearly has a group of friends in the Miiverse promoting his game, constantly referring to him directly and by first name. It's bizarre and feels fake.

Hopefully Treefall will be met with the same growing disinterest as some of this other shovelware, which is gradually being ignored by more and more reviewers as they grow tired of this bottom-of-the-barrel nonsense. I just hope it doesn't grow to an overall apathy towards all games in the eShop, as I'd hate to miss any other gems like, oh hey, Fairune was only $2--and utterly enjoyable, clever, and challenging throughout.

@Quorthon "But don't act like others can't express their opinions and discontent with this drivel."

I would never act that way. I'm only asking that people have informed opinions, and that they show respect towards those who disagree with them. In this case, those expressing opinions that they enjoy certain games others hate. We can certainly agree to disagree and be polite about it.

@TG1

If people feel they enjoy these things, that's fine--I don't personally understand it.

But those people buying these games have no right to complain when the eShop becomes flooded with this shovelware, as it is their money that built it in that manner. As RCMADIAX said, he calls this the new norm, he wants this substantially low quality as dominant on the eShop, and frankly, for Nintendo fans to spend so many years championing the "high quality" of Nintendo's consoles and games, only to turn around and defend the scrapings from the bottom of the barrel is extremely baffling.

I'm all for giving new guys and teams a shot, the benefit of the doubt, but we have two "comapnies" here whose clear plans are ultra-cheap, by-definition shovelware for the eShop and nothing else.

If you care about quality, this is a dangerous group to support, whether your (general use) 5 minutes of throw-away enjoyment was worth the $2 or not, as they are not remotely interested in it.

It's somewhat disheartening to see so much of this "buy it because it's cheap" crap oozing it's way to a console whose CEO, only a few years ago, pleaded with the industry not to undersell video games.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2011-03-02-iwata-outlines-concerns-over-high-value-game-future-article

And this:

Satoru Iwata then told the audience at his GDC keynote early this month that the likes of Apple and Facebook did not share Nintendo’s values. “For them, content is something created by someone else,” he said. “Their goal is to gather as much software as possible: quantity is what drives their profit. Quality does not matter to them.”

From here: http://www.edge-online.com/news/nintendo-rules-out-one-dollar-3ds-games/

How long should we blissfully support $2 shovelware before we wake up and realize we've devalued a once-promising service? How long before actual promising games and teams (Gunman Clive, Fairune, etc) are lost in a sea of mediocrity because reviewers have tired of an endless sea of no-budget crap?

@Quorthon

"Oh, it's only $1 or $2? Guess what, so was Gunman Clive, and that game was polished, original, creative, and respectful to the customer."

As I understand he is a one man band as well. It was hard to believe it was just him working on that. Indeed, that game was amazing, and filled with style. I'm fully looking forward to the sequel.

If I recall correctly you mentioned Fairune before. Regretfully, I forgot about your mention before so I'm glad you brought it up again. I'm putting that on my wishlist right now...

@MoonKnight7

I was pleasantly surprised by Fairune. It has some really old school elements--like keep walking against walls as hidden paths litter the thing, but some of the design and layouts were just brilliant. Depending on your fortitude, you'll get a decent trip for your money in that one. I ran through it in about 4.5 hours. Granted, several minutes of that was me staring at the map wondering if there was a wall I didn't walk against, and sure enough, there was. A few times. I think Nintendo Life gave the game an 8/10, and I would back that in an instant. I spent a little more time on random trial and error than I should have, and then realized the game was more clever than I had expected in it's hints.

And yeah, Gunman Clive 2 is a day-one purchase for me. That guy proved himself as far as I'm concerned.

By the way folks, DLC Quest and Zombie Estate on the Xbox 360 (indie) were also only a dollar, and those games were outstanding. Indeed, one or two dollars can very much be wasted--or they can deliver untold creativity and enjoyment.

This debating is hilarious. Keep going.

More than five dozens of comments seems like a lot for a public that supposedly doesn't want to give promotion to this studio.

Yes, this studio is cheap, and the games are at the very best basic, to most all around bad. Yes, they cost as much as other games that are actually great (or should I say, great game in singular, since Gunman Clive 2 is still not out). Yes, they can be used as examples by Sony and Microsoft examples when they want to laugh about "the most recent Wii U releases"

But you see, there is a market for horrible games. There is a niche in the market for this kind of things, Treefall studios and other developers saw that market and they want to give those people what they want. There are a lot of people that just for morbid curiosity, just for sheer hilarity or just to be even more indignant, are going to keep tabs in every one of this games.

They want to see how bad this games could be. They want to see how they sell. They are interested in reading reviews of them, seeing walktroughs of them, and even buying them (since they are cheap) just in order to see how horrible they are. I mean, visual novel from the makers of The Letter!? Man, that sounds like a recipe for disaster...but to know how much of a disaster it is, I have to pay 2 bucks? Well, there are people that will.

Asylum films...the Cherry Sisters... (google/wiki those two if you don't know them) they made a name of themselves not from being famously good, but instead infamously bad. It is human nature to be interested in the extremes...the promise of the "best game ever" calls them like a beacon, just as much as the promise of the "worst game ever" does.

@gage_wolf Your right these games have ridiculous plots and characters.

Also, this isn't really related, but I finally got around to getting Alpha Sapphire! Playing as a preteen boy traveling across an island unsupervised with giant Chickens, Magnets, and punching bags is truly an amazing experience.

I feel like I just watched a bunch of "tech demos", training tutorials, and proof of concepts that are the foundation of an eventual, much more polished game. Likewise, The Letter and The Maze are the starting blocks to building a good game with a decent story to it, but don't think they should have been retail "games".

Keep doing what you are doing, it appears that you are heading in the right path. But don't be so eager to get these things to market. Instead use these as the building blocks. Start combining and improving them to a good, complete product.

@Yomerodes

"...the promise of the "best game ever" calls them like a beacon, just as much as the promise of the "worst game ever" does."

I really don't see them as trying to make the "worst game ever" though. It seems like they are really trying their best, but the insane lack of experience is holding them back. Indeed, people bought The Letter because it was just that bad. I said as such in an earlier post, but I don't believe this notion that this is completely intentional. A good example is Goat Simulator, that was a game where the developers intentionally made the game as bad/but not broken as possible. Do you see TreeFall in a similar mindset? I certainly don't.

I find your theory slightly foolish for one basic reason. The Letter could easily be pegged as the "worst game ever." If they're really interested in this made up title of yours, wouldn't these new games attempt to be worse in comparison?? They certainly don't seem worse, it seems they're really trying to be better. "Trying" is the keyword here. If they really wanted to make terrible games, I don't believe they would have wasted their time on this so called, "Developers Conference."

Personally, I wouldn't bother making up excuses for them. They're just bad developers because they have absolutely no know-how about anything yet. The success of The Letter has stunted them into this weird realm of thinking that they are perfectly capable of making 5 games at once. It is as simple as that.

"Yes, they cost as much as other games that are actually great (or should I say, great game in singular, since Gunman Clive 2 is still not out)."

There are plenty of cheap games that are well worth the price. Gunman Clive, Fairune (just bought this last night and it's great) and Kersploosh! come to mind immediately, but I know I'm missing others.

@MoonKnight7

Well, of course they are not looking to do the worst game ever, no company has that kind of guts (well...Big Rigs Over the Road racing could be an exception). My point is that they can find success doing horrible cheap games, because there are people that like to laugh at those attempts. And they are doing the earnest best effort? All the best, as they say, mocking someone is just worth it when they have some dignity to begin with.

The worst visual novel, the worst platformer, the worst game by two bucks, the worst game by one buck, the worst game by half a buck. All those titles are sure to become a beacon for a lot of people. Sure, they might never do the actual worst game every, but if they are in the competition on purpose or by sheer incompetence, that is by itself a selling point.

Returning to the Best/Worst duality...look at Nintendo and Kirby and the Rainbow Curse...or look at Square Enix with Theatrythm Dragon Quest...or look at Capcom with Great Ace Attorney...they are aware those games are good ones, brilliant ones, well crafted, with big budget and with a lot of care behind. They also should be aware that those games (for multiple, if not many unfair reasons) have NO CHANCE of ever becoming the "best game ever" no matter how much money the companies pour into them (hell, Kirby is going to be cheaper than most Wii U games precisely because Nintendo acknowledges that it is not on the same level at least as other first party retail Wii U sofwtare). The fact that they are not trying to be the best ever is not going to stop any of the millions interested from getting them, since they are without a shadow of doubt, well made. Well, in Treefall case, the fact that none of their projects will be the worst game ever is not going to stop any of the dozens interested in getting them because without a shadow of doubt, they all will be hilariously bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABsrXutkZh8

I know this news post is old but I came across this video for their game PitterPot and it has come a long way from what we saw in the conference video.

Pretty much all of the games announced in the conference video were scrapped and halted with PitterPot being the exception.This game has the most effort from Treefall Studios since they had been constantly working on this game for years and pitched three crowdfunding campaigns for the game (all of which had failed).I guess this game is intended to be their Magnum Opus.

To be clear,I'm not a die hard fan who thinks every game they make is gold,in fact The Letter was to me an all around abomination but I had been following their progress on Miiverse and Twitter and I believe that they genuinely want to improve upon themselves and make good games despite making pretty amateur and puzzling choices in the past.The back and forth conversation between @MoonKnight7 and @Quorthon made me realize the absolute deep resentment/hatred that people were experiencing so I'm going to share this link for their new PitterPot trailer and see how you guys react.

P.S. The game was planned for Wii U but some time ago they dropped that console for release since the eShop market has dried up and is for the most part unprofitable.It will now release on P.S.4,Steam,and I think X Box One.They want to release it on Switch but they haven't been approved yet for development.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABsrXutkZh8